Last game we had a wizard use his Dimensional Steps ability to teleport himself and another character. The other character was grappled by a TRex (Savage Tide AP on the Isle of Dread).
I felt the TRex should have gotten a save to keep hold of the character. I would understand a PC teleporting himself out of a grapple (requiring a concentration check perhaps), but the teleport rules for taking an object from someone else give me concerns about the grapple.
I realize the PC in the grapple isn't an object, but how is teleporting the grappled PC away from the TRex by touching him different from teleporting a foes weapon away by touching it?
I ruled that there was no save this time as the PC was in very dire straights. The TRex had a CMD of 44 or so.
I'd have no problem with it, sounds like smart play by the PC's to me. Would you have the same problem with a dimension door or teleport spell? Just curious.
Teleport (and similar spells) are a standard defense against grappling.
As to how it's different than teleporting away an enemy's sword, most teleport spells require willing targets or similar. I suspect that the enemy will resist the spell, so the spell would fail.
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I realize the PC in the grapple isn't an object, but how is teleporting the grappled PC away from the TRex by touching him different from teleporting a foes weapon away by touching it?
The foe's weapon isn't a willing creature.
I ruled that there was no save this time as the PC was in very dire straights. The TRex had a CMD of 44 or so.
Why would the TRex get a save to keep hold of him? The teleport has nothing to do with him, even if he considered the grappled PC a sex object or whatever. That falls in the category of "his problem", not the "PCs' problem".
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As you get up in levels you'll notice the monsters tend to be a lot more combat focused then a lot of the PCs end up being. Teleporting out of grapples is usually a very acceptable method of escaping from a lot of the inescapable grapples that existed in 3.5. Paizo did help people out some by bringing the rules somewhat closer to hopefully let people escape, but it still gets very difficult. Usually at least the PC's have to expend some spell resources to get out of them.
The problem with Teleport is it's a Touch Spell. While Somatic Components are allowed during a Grapple, attempting to touch another is a different story. Here's a few things to consider:
1. In the case of the T-Rex, he has either one in his mouth and basically both people are trying to push up on the mouth to prevent them from swallowing whole. It's extremely hard to accomplish this. In this case, it requires a Touch Attack.
2. A Touch Attack works on a Run-on-Touch kind of thing. So, giving a perfect example, you use Shocking Grasp and miss. On the next initiative count, a Skeleton touches you. This sets off the Shocking Grasp because of the touch. In this regard, you now have an issue, you're touching the T-Rex. The T-Rex gets a Will Save to avoid teleporting with. Since it's probably not intelligent, it tries making the save (an intelligent grappler will purposely fail the save to travel with you).
So, two things you have to worry about. If it's Personal, it won't affect the T-Rex, but the nature of the touch makes me indifferent to that thing.
Now, if the spell said the T-Rex is too big to teleport, then I say that it doesn't bring the T-Rex and this is acceptable, but I haven't read the spell, so I'm just saying this in generality.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.Problem with that, is you are already touching the opponent. He's touching you... That's the problem. He's willingly touching you, and so the touch goes off.
This is the section I'm referring to.If you touch anything or
anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the
spell discharges.
Teleport isn't a touch attack spell though.
From Teleport:You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as four Medium creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.
You just have to be in contact with the person, there is no charge to hold, you touch the person, cast the spell, and off you go, no attack roll needed. It's even a verbal only spell so you don't have to even have a hand free to cast it, or you can have a hand on each of your friends you want to teleport with you. Unwilling creatures, don't get teleported according to the text of the spell.
I guess I just picture the TRex trashing his head back and forth with the PC in his mouth as the PC and he grapple. Up walks a wizard and without a touch attack/ save or anything takes the PC away by automatically touching a friend and teleporting. The Pathfinder grapple rules say that the PC stays in his space so there is no difficulty touching him.
I can see it both ways actually. I guess at 8th level a lot of things stop being much of an challenge for the PCs.
The earliest you'll get teleporting of any kind is 7th level, and even then this is eating up resources... just happens to not be HP in this case. Instead it's a spell slot, or a use of an ability, in addition to repositioning the characters from where they were to begin with (which could be a bad thing).
I could almost understand it if you said the T-Rex tries to go along too, however the wizard is the final chooser of who leaves and who doesn't (for example if more people were in the chain than he wanted to go provided the one he wants to leave isn't in the middle of the chain he can simply leave them out of the spells effect).
The spell never affects the T-Rex therefore he doesn't get a save throw, the spell only affects willing targets so no need for a touch attack... however I would like to point out the T-Rex might get an AoO from the wizard (or whatever spell caster is doing the teleporting) casting.
I ruled that there was no save this time as the PC was in very dire straights. The TRex had a CMD of 44 or so.
That was the right decision. First, it's exactly the way the spell is supposed to work by the RAW. Second, you don't want to punish players for using clever tactics, even if it does annoy the hell out of you the first time they do it. One of the coolest things I ever saw a player do was grapple a creature, move into its space, and then escape from the grapple so that he could provide a flank for one of his allies. At that moment, I could have ruled that it was a total rules hack and not allow it. Instead, I told him, "You grab onto the creature's head and though it tries to grab onto you, you escape its grip and flip over to the other side!" The player really appreciated it and it made for an awesome in game experience.
Only time I would not allow instantly removing someone from a grapple with a teleport effect would be if the grappling creature had Spell Resistance.
-Weylin
Spell resistance is a personal affect and doesn't affect anyone you touch. You can't touch your friend to share your spell resistance with them, so this doesn't work.
That was the right decision. First, it's exactly the way the spell is supposed to work by the RAW. Second, you don't want to punish players for using clever tactics, even if it does annoy the hell out of you the first time they do it. One of the coolest things I ever saw a player do was grapple a creature, move into its space, and then escape from the grapple so that he could provide a flank for one of his allies. At that moment, I could have ruled that it was a total rules hack and not allow it. Instead, I told him, "You grab onto the creature's head and though it tries to grab onto you, you escape its grip and flip over to the other side!" The player really appreciated it and it made for an awesome in game experience.
That is sweet. Definitely an ingenious idea.