Because it would be strictly better than a longsword at 1d8, and strictly worse than a kukri at 1d4?
The answer remains the same regardless of what class you are. If you want to deal 1d8 damage as a druid, take a spear.
If you want to deal 1d8 damage as a druid, take a spear.
Or this. Drd3/Ftr7/Dervish10?
I think what they are getting is why would it have changed?
Creative Director
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A lot of the "changes" to the Pathfinder rules are in fact additions or new options for play. We did try to keep actual changes to as much of a minimum as we could, since every time we changed something in the game it made it a little bit more incompatible with 3.5. In the case of something like the scimitar's damage, which has worked fine for the past 10 years or so and, to my knowledge, has never been raised as a point of contention or concern... we didn't change the damage. Especially since, as mentioned above, with its large threat range, an increase to its base damage would make it too good.
If a druid's worse at bypassing DR than a class that's specifically built to use weapons, that's just things working as intended, in any case.
as to why the scimitar was left at 1d6?Balancedefine balance, becuase to me there is no such thing
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Balance is why I'm still on the cliff... and you are not :D
Balance is why I'm still on the cliff... and you are not :Das to why the scimitar was left at 1d6?Balancedefine balance, becuase to me there is no such thing
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that made my morning.. that is awesome, but WHY are you AWAKE so EARLY!!!
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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define balance, becuase to me there is no such thingas to why the scimitar was left at 1d6?Balance
There is always balance, and in this case if you made Scimitar anything above or below their current position they would be better or worse than they should be.
Put another way, the 1d8 Scimitar is statistically a Longsword (and a martial weapon.)
that made my morning.. that is awesome, but WHY are you AWAKE so EARLY!!!Balance is why I'm still on the cliff... and you are not :Das to why the scimitar was left at 1d6?Balancedefine balance, becuase to me there is no such thing
<
He's staying up late.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Short sword 1d6 -> Longsword 1d8 -> Bastard sword 1d10 -> Great sword 2d6, all with 19-20x2, all martial (well the Bastard sword is 2 handed)
kukri 1d4 -> Scimitar 1d6 -> ?????? 1d8 -> Falchion 2d4 all with 18-20x2
You drop the die one step and increase the crit range by one. The Scimitar is balanced as is.
As to ???????? it should be a two handed martial (one handed EWP) weapon doing 1d8 damage and 18-20 X2 crit range.
Published we have:
Great Scimitar (Sandstorm, closed content)
Cotannen (Kingdoms of Kalamar, unsure of legal status)
Kastane (7th sea, open content)
On a related note, why don't katanas have 2d10 damage, with 1-20/x5 crits. I don't care for damage, I just want them to fit my twisted image of samurai?
kukri 1d4 -> Scimitar 1d6 -> ?????? 1d8 -> Falchion 2d4 all with 18-20x2
There is no ???. 2d4 is virtually the same as 1d8.
So it's 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 2d4 -> 1d10
Kukri -> scimitar -> falchion -> curve blade.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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kukri 1d4 -> Scimitar 1d6 -> ?????? 1d8 -> Falchion 2d4 all with 18-20x2
There is no ???. 2d4 is virtually the same as 1d8.
So it's 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 2d4 -> 1d10
Kukri -> scimitar -> falchion -> curve blade.
2d6 is 'virtually' the same as 1d12, so why doesn't the greatsword use 1d12?
Seriously, if you drop 2d6 one die size, it becomes 2d4. That the falchion is a two handed weapon boosts this comparison. That there are 3 seperate weapons (one WotC, two 3pp) that fill the '1d8 18-20 x2 ewp to use one handed' slot also help.
Edit: Those are also the stats I use for katana in my games. Though they aren't required to be masterwork.
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Creative Director
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On a related note, why don't katanas have 2d10 damage, with 1-20/x5 crits. I don't care for damage, I just want them to fit my twisted image of samurai?
Because for a weapon as vaunted and nerdtastic as the katana, those stats are ridiculously low. How could the Highlander have been such a badass without a katana that did 3d100 damage without the ability to do critical critical hits and also grant an AC bonus and also x4 Str damage (not Str bonus... actual STRENGTH score).
kukri 1d4 -> Scimitar 1d6 -> ?????? 1d8 -> Falchion 2d4 all with 18-20x2
There is no ???. 2d4 is virtually the same as 1d8.
So it's 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 2d4 -> 1d10
Kukri -> scimitar -> falchion -> curve blade.
2d6 is 'virtually' the same as 1d12, so why doesn't the greatsword use 1d12?
If the greatsword didn't do d12 damage then that dice would get even less use. Poor d12 the dice games love least...
that made my morning.. that is awesome, but WHY are you AWAKE so EARLY!!!Balance is why I'm still on the cliff... and you are not :Das to why the scimitar was left at 1d6?Balancedefine balance, becuase to me there is no such thing
<
First shift... rise before the sun and give it the moon on your way in.
as to why the scimitar was left at 1d6?Balancedefine balance, becuase to me there is no such thing
<
You poor thing. How do you stand up without it? :)
On a related note, why don't katanas have 2d10 damage, with 1-20/x5 crits. I don't care for damage, I just want them to fit my twisted image of samurai?Because for a weapon as vaunted and nerdtastic as the katana, those stats are ridiculously low. How could the Highlander have been such a badass without a katana that did 3d100 damage without the ability to do critical critical hits and also grant an AC bonus and also x4 Str damage (not Str bonus... actual STRENGTH score).
Aehm, I think that you switched the numbers. It should be 100d3, or reroll any results under 50 ;)
2d6 is 'virtually' the same as 1d12, so why doesn't the greatsword use 1d12?
Because it uses 2d6.
If the greatsword didn't do d12 damage then that dice would get even less use. Poor d12 the dice games love least...
Can you say "denial", d12-boy? :D
Can you say "denial", d12-boy? :D
If the greatsword didn't do d12 damage then that dice would get even less use. Poor d12 the dice games love least...
However a d4 does more damage when you stand on it.
Leave the d12 alone!
On a related note, why don't katanas have 2d10 damage, with 1-20/x5 crits. I don't care for damage, I just want them to fit my twisted image of samurai?Because for a weapon as vaunted and nerdtastic as the katana, those stats are ridiculously low. How could the Highlander have been such a badass without a katana that did 3d100 damage without the ability to do critical critical hits and also grant an AC bonus and also x4 Str damage (not Str bonus... actual STRENGTH score).
James!
I'm shocked! You are supposed to be better at proofreading! Especially your own postings!
A katana is obviously 100d3, not 3d100!
Now, we await your committing ritual suicide to atone for this egregious error...
EDIT: Darn, Ninja'd again!
Not! Teach me to read the entire threat before I post. :)
The only thing more nerdtastic than katana fanboy silliness is reactionary katana hatin', if you ask me. ;']
In older editions, the scimitar was 1d8.
I always kept this damage in 3rd edition. Never used the d6.
And no, it didn't make all my players pick up scimitars ;)
In older editions, the scimitar was 1d8.
Did it have a better crit range in older editions?
In older editions, the scimitar was 1d8.Did it have a better crit range in older editions?
No, but it had a better speed factor (if my AD&D memory serves correctly).
Did it have a better crit range in older editions?
No. Weapons didn't have critical threats.
Critical hits - when used - were determined by pure 20 on 1d20 or margin of success (Dragon Magazine Critical Hits).No, but it had a better speed factor (if my AD&D memory serves correctly).
Actually no.
The scimitar had the same speed factor as the long sword : 5.
Did it have a better crit range in older editions?No. Weapons didn't have critical threats.
Critical hits - when used - were determined by pure 20 on 1d20 or margin of success (Dragon Magazine Critical Hits).No, but it had a better speed factor (if my AD&D memory serves correctly).Actually no.
The scimitar had the same speed factor as the long sword : 5.
There you have your answer why it had the same damage as a longsword in 2e, but has a smaller damage die in 3e: In 2e, the weapons were pretty much the same in game terms, while 3e, with its introduction of other crit modifiers offered a way to differentiate the weapons: Either more base damage or better chance of critting.
There you have your answer why it had the same damage as a longsword in 2e, but has a smaller damage die in 3e: In 2e, the weapons were pretty much the same in game terms, while 3e, with its introduction of other crit modifiers offered a way to differentiate the weapons: Either more base damage or better chance of critting.
I don't agree.
And the damage was the same from before 2nd edition. It was already the case in 1st ed.But nevermind.
Anyway, crit range or not, i don't agree its damage should be lower than a longsword's.
The two weapons have the same lethal potential, so they should do the same damage. 1d8.
I houseruled that years ago.
Besides, the argument that the scimitar should make less damage than the longsword because of its crit range doesn't make sense.
If it was the case, then the kukri should be 1d3, as it is the same size than a dagger, but with a better crit range.
My point is not about the critical range of the weapon.
But a high critical range shouldn't be a factor lowering the overall damage of the weapon.
As i said if it was the case then the kukri should be 1d3, according to the same logic.
Scimitar = 1d8. High crit or not.
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Creative Director
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But a high critical range shouldn't be a factor lowering the overall damage of the weapon.
But it is and should be.
When he designed these rules, 3rd edition architect and brilliant math guy Jonathan Tweet crunched the numbers. He determined how much average damage each weapon would inflict and balanced the numbers really well. What he found out was that over a long period of time, say, all the attacks you'll make with a weapon in a game session, an expanded crit range is more or less the same as simply increasing the amount of damage you do over the course of a session by one point. That's why "keen edge" is a +1 enhancement magical property, and why a weapon that has a threat range of 20 does one point of damage more on average than a weapon that has a threat range of 19-20, and THAT weapon does one point of damage more than a weapon that has a threat range of 18-20. Changing crit multipliers had some other complicated math thing behind it that I can't quite remember, alas.
It's a lot of complicated math, but I was there working at WotC when Jonathan posted his math stuff to the interoffice boards and educated the R&D department why and how the math backs up the way weapons do damage the way they do.
Of course, since then, countless new weapons have been invented. They don't necessarily follow the same exhaustive math design stage, though, because very few people are as gifted as Jonathan is when it comes to rule design. But what they CAN do is look at the basic weapons from the core game and design new weapons along those design philosophies, and in so doing keep things all relatively balanced.
So that's the REAL reason why we didn't change a scimitar's (or really any OTHER weapon's) damage and crit range and crit multiplier.
TRUST ME, it's worth it.
Yeah, with improved crit (or keen), the fact that strength is multiplied along with everything else (except bonus dice, of course), and the neat new critical feats, a better crit range is usually worth it. It's a lot easier to get bigger damage bonuses than to get bigger crit multipliers.
I don't agree.
And the damage was the same from before 2nd edition. It was already the case in 1st ed.
But nevermind.
Yes, nevermind, because none of the game systems before 3e did crits the way 3e does them.
Anyway, crit range or not, i don't agree its damage should be lower than a longsword's.
The two weapons have the same lethal potential, so they should do the same damage. 1d8.
I houseruled that years ago.
It's bad design. With a d8 for the scimitar, the weapons' rules mechanics are identical, except that the scimitar has the better crit range.
In that case, there would be no reason to ever choose the longsword. Well, flavour maybe, but longswords are vanilla, anyway, so you wouldn't even buy some style with your crappy weapon, you'd give up everything.
Besides, the argument that the scimitar should make less damage than the longsword because of its crit range doesn't make sense.
Of course it does. It makes perfect sense.
If it was the case, then the kukri should be 1d3, as it is the same size than a dagger, but with a better crit range.
You do know that the kukri is a martial weapon while the dagger is a simple weapon. In fact, virtually every class can use the dagger, but there are a lot that cannot use the kukri without using a feat on it.
And you can throw daggers. And stab people.
I can understand that you don't care for game balance, but the official rules cannot ignore it. That way lays the ninja class with d100 HD, double BAB, all strong saves, all spells, 20+ skill points, a feat at every level, and using 2 katanas at once (and, of course, the katanas do 100d100 damage, always crit for instant kill, and give you +20 charisma because you're so damn cool with those)
My point is not about the critical range of the weapon.
But a high critical range shouldn't be a factor lowering the overall damage of the weapon.
As i said if it was the case then the kukri should be 1d3, according to the same logic.Scimitar = 1d8. High crit or not.
Lowering the damage because the crit range is higher makes perfect sense. Just as lowering the crit range because the crit multiplier is higher makes perfect sense as well.
As it is, the Scimitar, Longsword and Battleaxe are are roughly equivalent in terms of power. If you concentrate on inflicting crits, then the scimitar is your best bet. If you want the maximum damage potential, the Battleaxe is your choice. Longsword is the "in-between" weapon, with a slightly higher crit range than a battleaxe and a slightly higher damage than a scimitar.
As for your Kukri comparison, if the kukri was a simple weapon, I would agree with you. However, it isn't, so it should be a bit better than a dagger. Comparing the kukri to the dagger is like comparing the longsword to the mace, the martial weapon is better by design.
Giving the scimitar a 1d8 damage makes the longsword an inferior weapon, and therefore, a universally inferior choice. Currently, the choice between longsword and scimitar depends on your focus.
I can understand that you don't care for game balance, but the official rules cannot ignore it. That way lays the ninja class with d100 HD, double BAB, all strong saves, all spells, 20+ skill points, a feat at every level, and using 2 katanas at once (and, of course, the katanas do 100d100 damage, always crit for instant kill, and give you +20 charisma because you're so damn cool with those)
Don't be condescending, KaeYoss, please...
It doesn't serve the debate.I mentioned i houseruled the scimitar damage to 1d8, as i prefer that as a DM.
I never said it should be officially changed (such a call would be ridiculous anyway).
And i know about game balance, even the points raised by James.
I still keep my change as a DM, and it still doesn't make the scimitar the number one weapon in my games, because my players just don't pick a weapon for its damage, crits or uberness...
I can understand that you don't care for game balance, but the official rules cannot ignore it. That way lays the ninja class with d100 HD, double BAB, all strong saves, all spells, 20+ skill points, a feat at every level, and using 2 katanas at once (and, of course, the katanas do 100d100 damage, always crit for instant kill, and give you +20 charisma because you're so damn cool with those)Don't be condescending, KaeYoss, please...
It doesn't serve the debate.I mentioned i houseruled the scimitar damage to 1d8, as i prefer that as a DM.
I never said it should be officially changed (such a call would be ridiculous anyway).
And i know about game balance, even the points raised by James.
I still keep my change as a DM, and it still doesn't make the scimitar the number one weapon in my games, because my players just don't pick a weapon for its damage, crits or uberness...
Then what purpose does your houserule serve? How does this help you as a DM?
Also, out of curiosity, did you houserule the Falchions damage as well? If not, why not?
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Short sword 1d6 -> Longsword 1d8 -> Bastard sword 1d10 -> Great sword 2d6, all with 19-20x2, all martial (well the Bastard sword is 2 handed)
kukri 1d4 -> Scimitar 1d6 -> ?????? 1d8 -> Falchion 2d4 all with 18-20x2
You drop the die one step and increase the crit range by one. The Scimitar is balanced as is.
As to ???????? it should be a two handed martial (one handed EWP) weapon doing 1d8 damage and 18-20 X2 crit range.
Published we have:
Great Scimitar (Sandstorm, closed content)
Cotannen (Kingdoms of Kalamar, unsure of legal status)
Kastane (7th sea, open content)
Try this:
Saber/Sabre (Exotic Weapon)Damage Small 1d6/ Med 1d8 Slashing
Crit 18-20 x2
Weight 4lbs
Price 25 gp
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a saber sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon. A character can use a saber as a scimitar as a martial weapon.
Or just use it as a martial weapon without the whole exotic/finesse extras.
Don't be condescending, KaeYoss, please...
I wasn't trying to be condescending. I exaggerating to show what lack of balance can do.
I mentioned i houseruled the scimitar damage to 1d8, as i prefer that as a DM.
I never said it should be officially changed (such a call would be ridiculous anyway).
And i know about game balance
You did say that the crit modifier should not be part of the balancing, and it's with that idea that I find issue.
Because the crit modifier very much influences the general power level.
You have to see that: 1d8/18-20 is simply better than 1d8/19-20.
it still doesn't make the scimitar the number one weapon in my games, because my players just don't pick a weapon for its damage, crits or uberness...
At the risk of sounding more condescending: What are they picking their weapon for? Boringness?
I mean, it's one thing to be condescending about people who look at things like stats or style.
But I'm not the only 13-year-old powergamer (note, I'm not really 13 years old, and, if you haven't noticed: I consider your implication that I'm a powergamer and "uber-kind" because I don't want the longsword to be strictly inferior to the scimitar to be at least as condescending as my joke about ninjas) here.
Do you know who else is? People in charge.
If a ruler has to decide what kind of weapon he wants his troops to use (let's say he wants to choose between longsword and scimitar), and he sees that both will cost him the same, both take the same time to master (so his troops will be ready for use equally fast), and everything else about the weapons is equal - but one is just deadlier!
Well, the rulers who chose the longsword in that decision are the once you read in history books about failed kingdoms and such. Call it "Evolution of Archons" or something like that.
Continuing that though, it will make the scimitar more popular in the world. So what does the longsword offer? The lure of the exotic? Well, the lure of the exotic is fine, but the fact that the scimitar-wielder's chance of surviving is greater than that of the longsword wielder's, it means exotic will usually be considered to be a synonym to "doomed". Call if "Evolution of the Warrior", if you will.
It's important to remember that the game has two components: rules and flavour. Those who ignore either are poorer roleplayers for it. That goes for the guys who ignore everything except the numbers and how to min-max them no more than for those who play "innovative" characters that need a deus ex machinegun to become heroes, because they think that "innovative" means "using inferior choices".