My personal favorites for Pathfinder mulitclassing are:
1. Ranger6/FighterX= This is because this gives a archer ranger Improved Precise at 6th when it is uaually a 11th level minimum feat followed by lots of feats given by the fighter class.
2. Monk2/DruidX= The monk gives the Druid extra AC while wild shaped and the monk lets the Druid while in animal for do unarmed strikes instead of natural attacks. Noting that the unarmed strikes are upgraded by whatever sise the creature the druid is wildshaped into.(ie huge.)
Nice assumption there: Comparing a rogue 4/wizard 1 to a wizard 5 in spellcasting ability only. Why don't you look at a multiclassed caster that doesn't give up 4 levels of casting ability? Stacking the deck that way proves nothing other than your prejudices.Um.
Not sure what point you thought I was making, but I was reinforcing this point:
No, what you lose is pretty continuous. If you multiclass one level out of a caster class, you lose your highest level of spells about half the time, as well as about 1-2 casts per spell level. If you multiclass two levels out of a caster class, you lose your highest level of spells all the time and about 2-3 casts per spell level.
This is pretty continuous throughout all levels. It's not something that suddenly comes up at high levels.
So, to "reinforce" a point on the difference of 1-2 caster levels, you use a difference of 4 caster levels...and give the multiclassed character only a single caster level, to boot.
Even if it's rog2/wizX versus wiz(X+2), you feel that difference a lot more at level 3 or level 5 than at level 17, you know?
Multiclassing is all about tradeoffs between versatility and focused power.
A multiclassed spellcaster will feel a larger difference in spellcasting ability at low level, but that is also when spellcasting has less of an impact on play. Being able to do more than just cast spells is correspondingly of greater importance.
What about the Eldritch Knight? Right off the bat you are losing two caster levels. 1 for whatever class gives you the martial weapon proficiencies you need and 1 for the first level of Eldritch Knight.
Is that worth the benefits of a +1 BAB per level, d10 HD, and a couple of bonus feats?
What about the Eldritch Knight? Right off the bat you are losing two caster levels. 1 for whatever class gives you the martial weapon proficiencies you need and 1 for the first level of Eldritch Knight.
Is that worth the benefits of a +1 BAB per level, d10 HD, and a couple of bonus feats?
If you look at EK as a caster class then no +5 BAB over the course of 20 levels is not worth 2 caster levels.
If you look at EK as a melee then yes, +5 BAB is worth 2 caster levels. Appearently you can still use asimar and tieflings to get into EK as a straight wizard only giving up 1 caster level as well.
If you're mostly a non-spellcaster -- quite possibly.
If you're mostly a spellcaster -- not usually.
I agree for high level games, but in reality most games don't make high level so the multi-class spellcasters don't lose quite as much as it looks like they will on paper, imo.
The paper I'm looking at is my character sheet in a game that has run from 1st to 10th level thus far. Multiclassing always hurts arcane spellcasters. Even a single level makes things painful, delaying higher level spells and lowering the number of spells you have available.
The biggest problem with multiclassing using primary spellcasters within the system is that it almost nothing to improve your offensive abilities, even if occasionally you get nifty defensive or skill abilities. One level is manageable, more than that however and you start talking about someone who's just a crappy wizard/sorcerer.
Well I noticed the Mystic Theurge has come under some fire. At first glance he looks sub-optimal. However, he can be the strongest support character in the party. I agree he is a bit physically weak. However because he sacrifices alot of personal power he has the capability of keeping the party going for an encounter or two longer. The theurge with his numerous spells will most likely have some sort of spell for every situation, and he is a great help for single classed spell casters.
No, he doesn't, because this idea is nonsense. First understand that he doesn't have more spells of his highest level - even combining his divine and arcane spells - than either the strait divine caster or arcane caster. Second, realize that his spells are not nearly as effective because he has lower caster levels and DCs as a result of splitting his ability increases between two ability scores. Third, consider how he is often two full spell levels behind in what he has access to. Finally, realize that it doesn't matter how much juice one person has left in the tank at the end of the day, if the party has other people running on empty they are advised to hold up and rest. Especially when the person with "gas" in the tank as it were gets crappy millage in the form of reduced duration buffs, reduced damage spells, and less chance of hurting enemies with them. There are of course exceptions to stopping - when you are on a timeline, and ignoring them like the wizard supremacists do is insanity.
Take it from someone who's played numerous duel casting characters at levels high and low. It is almost never worth it unless you are able to cheat on your entry - like with precocious appearance (which technically doesn't work but which many DMs will allow) - and when you are able to make use of the same score - like Wizard/Psion or Sorcerer/Favorite Soul - and even then it is rarely as effective as just sticking with your focus. If you are doing it you are doing so for flavor reasons.
I agree with Mr. Stewart. Flavor is a perfectly fine reason to make your character what you want, though. Multiclassing is still popular for that reason.
The multiclass prestige classes can make a fun character, but there's no arguing with a 20th level full-caster, unless you're trying to fill in a hole in the party.
If you have no arcane caster and no stealthy rogue types, an arcane trickster is a good character to have around. Very weak at first, though.
Since [the mystic theurge's] spellcasting is weaker than a single class spellcaster he is not going to be a combatant.
Actually, with the right spell choices (especially if allowed to use the 3.5 feat Practiced Spellcaster), a mystic theurge can out-CoDzilla a straight cleric in higher level play (around 10th level and up). Blur, enlarge person, haste, mirror image, shield, stoneskin, etc. on top of the cleric and shared buffs can make the mystic theurge a very tough customer.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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When contrasting something like a Fighter 10 to a Fighter 5 / Ranger 5, it's probably helpful to put the Fighter 10's Favored Class bonus into skills, so that they end up more similarly statted, and easier to compare.
For my money, the change in favored class is just one way that the Pathfinder design team discourages multi-classing. It's not hopeless, but there's a much stronger disincentive in Pathfinder.
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I think it is. In my 2 decades of playing this damn game (this is still D&D in my opinion) I can count on one hand the number of characters I have taken to the level cap. 1. So one finger I guess. That is one case where multi-classing can really cause regrets.
The new mid level abilities make it a harder decision to sacrifice those levels and there are some classes that it makes no sense to multi-class (Monk and Bard). But the Mystic Theurge gives Cleric/Wizards something to shoot for. 2 levels of Paladin in a Sorceror always makes for some fun. Barbarian mixes well with nearly every class that loves to melee (Loves me a Druid/Barbarian). For the feat happy Fighter is always there.
In the end it really depends on the player and the campaign. If it is combat heavy, no matter the Multi-Class you will be lagging behind the curve. If it is skill and roleplaying heavy Multi-Classing is practically a must.
he spells will concentrate mainly around buffs and summons and various odd spells other spellcasters might not be able to prepare. He will offer that extra healing spell at a...
Sorry, felt the need to jump on this one. Not summons. Not ever as a MT. I'm playing a wizard summoner right now with 1 level of rogue. One level. My summons are, even with the Pathfinder buffs, still very weak. The ones of the list two levels lower are just flat out useless. So no, the MT isn't summoning. All he has is buckets and buckets of low level buffs which are in theory useful in the right situation - but in practice rarely worthwhile.
Finally, realize that it doesn't matter how much juice one person has left in the tank at the end of the day, if the party has other people running on empty they are advised to hold up and rest. Especially when the person with "gas" in the tank as it were gets crappy millage in the form of reduced duration buffs, reduced damage spells, and less chance of hurting enemies with them.
On the other hand, the sheer number of spell slots available to the mystic theurge allow them to "go nova" more often than the "wizard supremacist." Sure, the single classed character's individual spells are more powerful, but if they can easily burn through their most powerful slots on one or two fights if they're not careful. Again, with the right feat and spell choices (concentrating on no-save spells like black tentacles, always targeting weak saves like Ref vs. giants, etc.), a mystic theurge can be very powerful.
Finally, realize that it doesn't matter how much juice one person has left in the tank at the end of the day, if the party has other people running on empty they are advised to hold up and rest. Especially when the person with "gas" in the tank as it were gets crappy millage in the form of reduced duration buffs, reduced damage spells, and less chance of hurting enemies with them.On the other hand, the sheer number of spell slots available to the mystic theurge allow them to "go nova" more often than the "wizard supremacist." Sure, the single classed character's individual spells are more powerful, but if they can easily burn through their most powerful slots on one or two fights if they're not careful. Again, with the right feat and spell choices (concentrating on no-save spells like black tentacles, always targeting weak saves like Ref vs. giants, etc.), a mystic theurge can be very powerful.
No, it doesn't. Run the numbers on a Wizard 11 vs. Cleric3/Wizard3/MT5. See how many 5th level spells the MT has vs. the Wizard. Then check 4th. I suspect you'll have to go down to 3rd level spells to find the MT with more - and you cannot nova effective with spells multiple levels lower.
My summons are, even with the Pathfinder buffs, still very weak. The ones of the list two levels lower are just flat out useless.
How are you using the summoning spells? Are you attempting simple, straightfoward attacks (which even for single-classed casters tends to less impressive than many attack spells, let alone the party tank)? Or are you using your summoning spells tactically to control the battlefield (blocking lines of approach, setting up flanking, threatening AoOs on enemy archers and spellcasters, etc.)?
A multiclassed spellcaster will feel a larger difference in spellcasting ability at low level, but that is also when spellcasting has less of an impact on play. Being able to do more than just cast spells is correspondingly of greater importance.I am seriously not sure who you are trying to convince but it isn't me.
My only point is that being a multiclass spellcaster sucks more at low levels than it does at high ones, especially since PF nerfed a ton of lowbie staple spells.
OK, take a rogue 2/wizard 3 and a wizard 5. What does each character do when confronted with a high wall, a locked door, a group of 3-4 guards, a second locked door, a 50 ft long corridor with a 30 ft long/20 ft deep spiked pit in the middle, and a guardian creature watching over a locked chest? No scrolls, wands, etc. only prepared spells and use of skills. Which character is likely to have more spells left for the big fight at the end? Which character will be useful in a wider range of situations on any given day?
Actually, with the right spell choices (especially if allowed to use the 3.5 feat Practiced Spellcaster), a mystic theurge can out-CoDzilla a straight cleric in higher level play (around 10th level and up). Blur, enlarge person, haste, mirror image, shield, stoneskin, etc. on top of the cleric and shared buffs can make the mystic theurge a very tough customer.
Also, you have no idea what the original CoDzilla was or why it worked or how to choose buff spells, so this is really terrible advice. (Blur is really weak, Enlarge Person doesn't stack with Righteous Might, Shield is reaaaaally dumb for a class that can wear a shield, etc.)
A 20% miss chance to any attack (unless the opponent has true seeing), on top of buffed AC and mirror image is nothing to sneer at. Enlarge person may not stack with righteous might, but how many 5th level spell slots will a straight cleric have vs. 1st level wizard slots for a mystic theurge? Did you get that shield enchanted with the animated ability? If not, you're stuck with a one-handed weapon, while the mystic theurge is Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon and still getting a +4 AC from the shield spell.
Granted, the PF change to divine power makes CoDzilla harder to accomplish. But going through the available spells on both the cleric and the wizard list gives you a better ability to stack different types of bonuses (enhancement, luck, morale, etc.). As far as economy of actions go, CoDzilla always took advance planning and time, so spending an extra couple of rounds before combat and scribing a couple extra scrolls to keep longer duration buffs active is hardly a big deal.
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Just as the question asks above. Is it worth it?
Thanks
Yes.
It is also possible to win at blackjack.
The reason casinos still offer blackjack is that everyone knows it is possible to win, but almost nobody actually has the skill to do so. As a result, people take stupid risks believing that they are not risks at all.
That was what preachers call an "illustration". I might call it an analogous cautionary observation, but I'd need a couple beers first. I don't break out the solid gold vocabulary for just any occasion.
For new players, I always suggest retaining a single clas. It is easy to end up with an unworkable combination, to be distracted by all the shiny possibilities and lose track of what you actually need to succeed (success = have fun), or to become bogged down in mechanics and nit-pickery… like this thread.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: Eldrich Knight.
If your DM is playing with traits, this one is well worth taking for EK builds.
6 Magical Knack:
You were raised, either wholly or in part, by a magical creature, either after it found you abandoned in the woods or because your parents often left you in the care of a magical minion. This constant
exposure to magic has made its mysteries easy for you to understand, even when you turn your mind to other devotions and tasks. Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level
higher than your current Hit Dice.
So Fighter 1/Wiz 5/EK X may be a spell level behind, but his caster level is still (X + 6)
Heck, this trait also makes a Ranger/Paladin X cast as X-1 rather than X-3
No, it doesn't. Run the numbers on a Wizard 11 vs. Cleric3/Wizard3/MT5. See how many 5th level spells the MT has vs. the Wizard. Then check 4th. I suspect you'll have to go down to 3rd level spells to find the MT with more - and you cannot nova effective with spells multiple levels lower.Finally, realize that it doesn't matter how much juice one person has left in the tank at the end of the day, if the party has other people running on empty they are advised to hold up and rest. Especially when the person with "gas" in the tank as it were gets crappy millage in the form of reduced duration buffs, reduced damage spells, and less chance of hurting enemies with them.On the other hand, the sheer number of spell slots available to the mystic theurge allow them to "go nova" more often than the "wizard supremacist." Sure, the single classed character's individual spells are more powerful, but if they can easily burn through their most powerful slots on one or two fights if they're not careful. Again, with the right feat and spell choices (concentrating on no-save spells like black tentacles, always targeting weak saves like Ref vs. giants, etc.), a mystic theurge can be very powerful.
The big limitation for effectively "going nova" isn't spell level, it's caster level. That's why I mentioned the 3.5 feat Practiced Spellcaster.
OK, take a rogue 2/wizard 3 and a wizard 5. What does each character do when confronted with a high wall, a locked door, a group of 3-4 guards, a second locked door, a 50 ft long corridor with a 30 ft long/20 ft deep spiked pit in the middle, and a guardian creature watching over a locked chest? No scrolls, wands, etc. only prepared spells and use of skills. Which character is likely to have more spells left for the big fight at the end? Which character will be useful in a wider range of situations on any given day?Well, considering Fly, Invisibility, and an adamantine dagger beat every single one of your examples until the last big fight, looks like it's the wizard 5!
OK, the wizard 5 (spells 4/3/2/1) casts fly (3rd level spell, 5 minute duration) to get over the wall. He hacks at the locked door with his adamantine dagger (alerting the guards), but casts invisibility (2nd level spell, 5 minute duration or until making an attack) before opening it and entering. The guards see the damaged door open, but don't see the wizard. Half of them attempt to find/attack the invisible wizard, but he avoids them because he's still flying. However, half of the guards run to the second locked door and stand in front of it with readied attacks. What does the wizard do next with the one 2nd level spell and three 1st level spells still prepared? Making an attack ends the invisibility and the wizard still needs to get passed the guards and the second door before the duration of the fly spell runs out if he wants to fly over the pit.
Meanwhile, the rogue 2/wizard 3 (spells 4/2/1) climbs the wall, picks the locked door, sneaks passed the guards, picks the second locked door, climbs around the pit, and is still has all prepared spells available for the final fight.
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The guards see the damaged door open, but don't see the wizard. Half of them attempt to find/attack the invisible wizard, but he avoids them because he's still flying. However, half of the guards run to the second locked door and stand in front of it with readied attacks.
Metagaming.
The guards don't know it's an invisible wizard. They would see the door open but not who opened it. They would spend a round waiting for the intruder to rush in, then at least a round investigating the other side of the door.
None of them would think to ready actions against an invisible enemy. However, the rest of your argument stands. I'm just nitpicking.
Same with Enlarge Person. It's too short of duration to have on all the time, and it's too weak to cast in-combat past a certain level (and if you've got Stoneskin, you've left that level far behind).
Enlarge person - 1 min/level, doubles target's size and increases the target to the next higher size category, +2 size bonus to Str, -2 Dex
Righteous might - 1 round/level, doubles the caster's size and increases the caster to the next higher size category, +4 size bonus to Str, -2 Dex, +2 enhancement bonus to natural armor, DR 5/evil
Righteous might gives an extra +2 to Str, +2 to natural armor that doesn't stack with an amulet of natural armor, and DR 5/evil. It also only lasts for a single combat. Enlarge person, however, can last for multiple combats (if there is not too much time in between) and can easily be scribed on scrolls (at 12.5 gp per caster level, or 750 gp for 1 hour's worth of scrolls) to keep active for long periods of time and provides most of the same benefits.
Animated shields are also in your price range at this level, plus we are talking about a cleric who doesn't have a lot of great 2h options unless your god gives you a free proficiency thanks for the buff PF.
A +1 animated heavy shield grants a +3 AC bonus and costs 9,157 gp (wood)/9,170 gp (steel). A +2 animated heavy shield grants a +4 AC bonus and costs 16,157/16,170 gp just to match the benefit of a shield spell. That's 16,000 gp that the mystic theurge can invest somewhere else (like a headband of mental prowess (+2 Int, +2 Wis) for 10,000gp, a headband of inspired wisdom (+4 Wis) for 16,000 gp, or a headband of vast intelligence (+4 Int) for 16,000 gp).
Even without free proficiency or spending a feat, any one-handed weapon can be used two-handed to gain +(1.5 x Str bonus) on damage and +3 damage for every -1 attack penalty with Power Attack. So, an enlarged mystic theurge (12 Str for this example) with bull's strength* (+6 total on Str) can Power Attack (at a -2 penalty for BAB +4-+7) with a large heavy mace (2d6) wielded two-handed to do 2d6+12 damage. With a shield spell (also 1 minute per caster level, so 1 hour's worth of scrolls scribed for 750 gp) active, the mystic theurge can operate for long periods of time at nearly the same level as the cleric with righteous might can for a single fight; the mystic theurge also invests 1,500 gp while the cleric invests 16,000 gp.
*-Since bull's strength and cat's grace are also 1 minute per caster level duration spells, there's little reason not to have them up on everyone before a fight, unless they already have a belt that grants +4 or better to that attribute. In this case, the party would be wise to have someone take Craft Wand and enchant one or two of each (2,750 gp to create each wand of 50 charges, each charge lasts 3 minutes).
The guards see the damaged door open, but don't see the wizard. Half of them attempt to find/attack the invisible wizard, but he avoids them because he's still flying. However, half of the guards run to the second locked door and stand in front of it with readied attacks.Metagaming.
The guards don't know it's an invisible wizard. They would see the door open but not who opened it. They would spend a round waiting for the intruder to rush in, then at least a round investigating the other side of the door.
None of them would think to ready actions against an invisible enemy. However, the rest of your argument stands. I'm just nitpicking.
Metagaming nothing. A locked door is damaged and opens "by itself." What would an inhabitant of a world with magic think? They wouldn't necessarily think "invisible wizard," but they sure will think "invisible intruder." As guards, they would attempt to protect what they are guarding. Which, in this case, is the door leading onward.
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Just as the question asks above. Is it worth it? Thanks
How do you define worth it? Do you mean numbers on paper? Do you mean for building a character.
I love multiclassing. It allows you to do both. If you want to play a character that was a cleric because you grew up "in the church" and stray from the path of the cleric but keep your faith, it's a great mechanic for showing that too.
Cleric of Mystra (magic) becomes a Wizard. Loves magic, love mystra. Raised within the church of Mystra.. but doesn't like the churchly order. Do you think Mystra going to consider him fallen? Hell no. Such a character can then prestige into a Mystic Theurge even if that's not their plan.
Then again you could break the system, start as a barbarian, get your rage, multiclass into a fighter, get the weapons and armor, then find some silly bunch of feats to wreck everything.
A 20% miss chance to any attack (unless the opponent has true seeing), on top of buffed AC and mirror image is nothing to sneer at.Except that it is the same level as Mirror Image and Invisibility (both vastly superior spells) and is not worth the in-combat action it takes to cast (unlike Mirror Image and Invisibility).
Blur and invisibility are the same duration (1 min/level), but invisibility ends as soon as you make an attack. Blur remains active for the full duration, even if you attack. Mirror image (again, 1 min/level) only protects against a maximum of 8 successful/almost successful attacks (and at 1d4 + 1 per three caster levels, more like 4-6); assuming 2-3 attacks per round while in combat, it will only last for a few rounds of fighting. Blur remains active for the full duration, regardless of the number attacks made against the character. The effects of blur (20% automatic miss, that's one attack in five) also stack with mirror image (successful hit strikes an image or caster, determined randomly), while neither stacks with invisibility.
Add a wand of blur (range: touch) to the list of worthwhile items (creation cost 2,750 gp with Craft Wand, 50 charges lasting 3 minutes each) for buffing the entire party.
Re: Eldrich Knight.
If your DM is playing with traits, this one is well worth taking for EK builds.
6 Magical Knack:
You were raised, either wholly or in part, by a magical creature, either after it found you abandoned in the woods or because your parents often left you in the care of a magical minion. This constant
exposure to magic has made its mysteries easy for you to understand, even when you turn your mind to other devotions and tasks. Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level
higher than your current Hit Dice.So Fighter 1/Wiz 5/EK X may be a spell level behind, but his caster level is still (X + 6)
Heck, this trait also makes a Ranger/Paladin X cast as X-1 rather than X-3
Thank you for finding that.
A mystic theurge might wish to use a feat to take two extra traits: Magical Knack (cleric) and Magical Knack (wizard). A cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge X will then be able to cast all spells at CL X+5, only one level below their character level.
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Metagaming nothing. A locked door is damaged and opens "by itself." What would an inhabitant of a world with magic think? They wouldn't necessarily think "invisible wizard," but they sure will think "invisible intruder." As guards, they would attempt to protect what they are guarding. Which, in this case, is the door leading onward.
Again, average guards are not going to think "invisible intruder" just because no one is in the doorway. Guards who have been briefed "dudes with crazy powers like invisibility may attack" might. Guarding the next door would be a reasonable task for one or two of them. The rest would move to investigate the door, most likely making it difficult to cross to the other door without brushing someone and alerting them to the invisibility. Depending on the size of the area.
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A mystic theurge might wish to use a feat to take two extra traits: Magical Knack (cleric) and Magical Knack (wizard). A cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge X will then be able to cast all spells at CL X+5, only one level below their character level.
As far as I am aware you can not take 2 traits from the same area
quote from character traits web enhancement"When selecting traits, you may not select more than one from the same
list of traits."
so I dont think you could do this - one class sure but not both
I've not been one to play casters myself... but I've always thought the best way to go if you are going to constantly buff... would be to take levels in War Weaver from Heroes of Battle.
DCP, if you don't understand how CoDzilla works, you should really refrain from offering bad advice.
I offer as evidence that you don't understand the basics of this sort of character. (Nitpicking follows.)
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Righteous might gives an extra +2 to Str, +2 to natural armor that doesn't stack with an amulet of natural armorPeriapt of Wisdom. Clerics are not fond of Amulets of Natural Armor.
In PF RPRG there are no periapts of wisdom. All mental attribute boost items are headbands.
Quote:
A +2 animated heavy shield grants a +4 AC bonus and costs 16,157/16,170 gp just to match the benefit of a shield spell.Except that the mystic theurge is quite a few AC behind just for being an arcane caster; the animated shield is gravy on top of a mithral breastplate. (And by the time you can afford this shield you can afford to Magic Vestment it every morning; who buys a +2 anything with a cleric in the party?)
In PF RPG there are the feats Arcane Armor Training (reduce spell failure by 10%; mithral chain shirt) and Arcane Armor Mastery (reduce spell failure by 20%; mithral breastplate). Magic vestment grants a +1 per four caster levels; so a cleric 12+ investing at least 9,157 gp can "beat" what any mystic theurge can manage for 750 gp. Yep, I guess that showed me!
P.S.: Mystic theurges get magic vestment, also. With Magical Knack (cleric), their cleric caster level is only one less than their character level (or the straight cleric).
The way CoDzilla works, and always worked, is that you stacked up a pile of buffs that can trivially be kept up all day, using Extend Spell or just a high caster level (or DMM/Persist). This means hour/levels on all the time, and 10 min/levels extended once you can afford to. You open each fight with a self-buff worth the opportunity cost (Divine whatever, Haste, Righteous Fury, Animal Growth, Nature's thingie, Bite of the whatever, depending on your class/game revision/available material), then go to town. It just happened to be that that strategy beat melee types hands down, plus you had all of the spellcaster problem-solving tools...
If you actually read my posts instead of ignoring them, it costs 750 gp for a mystic theurge to scribe scrolls to maintain a shield spell for one hour. Ditto for enlarge person. Craft wands of blur, bull's strength, and cat's grace (at 3 minutes per charge) for 2,750 gp each. How long does a typical dungeon exploration session take in game time (not counting travel time to reach the location)? Most often an hour or less.
Using the mentioned scrolls and wands, the mystic theurge is running around for that entire time (renewing buffs from scrolls and wands every 3 minutes; taking 5 rounds or 30 seconds) with +6 Str, +2 Dex, a +4 AC shield bonus (non-encumbering), is large size (reach, extra damage), and one attack in five made against him is an automatic miss. Add heroism (+2 morale bonus to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks; 10 min/level) and cast divine favor (+1 luck bonus to attack and damage rolls every three levels, max. +3)/divine power (+1 luck bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, Str checks, and Str-based skill checks every three levels, max. +6, and gain +1 temporary hp per level) and possibly haste (+1 to attack rolls, +1 dodge bonus to AC and Ref saves, +30 ft enhancement bonus to all movement, make an extra attack with a full attack action; affects 1 target/level) before each combat.
One last comment, invoking GM intervention ("the GM can and will rain on your parade by not giving you free time to sit there and cast spells on yourself") to "disprove" a strategy is a weak argument. If you can't argue against it on it's merits within the rules, invoking Rule 0 is not going to help.
Meanwhile, the rogue 2/wizard 3 (spells 4/2/1) climbs the wall, picks the locked door, sneaks passed the guards, picks the second locked door, climbs around the pit, and is still has all prepared spells available for the final fight.And since I'm here.
The rogue/wizard has a decent chance to fall off of the wall, since on a good day he's going to have a +5-7 modifier and it's a DC 20 wall that he needs at least two checks to climb. (If it's not at least that tall, then anyone can climb it by simply trying until they succeed.) But after possibly a d6 damage bruise, he's atop the wall. The lock is no trouble, since if he's patient, he can pick it on a take 20.
Assuming 12 Str, 14 Dex, 16 (15+1) Int and wizard as favored class:
Acrobatics 2 (+2 Dex, +3 class) = +7
Appraise 2 (+3 Int, +3 class) = +8
Bluff 2 (+3 class) = +5
Climb 4 (+1 Str, +3 class) = +8
Diplomacy 2 (+3 class) = +5
Disable Device 5 (+2 Dex, +3 class) = +10
Knowledge (Arcana) 4 (+3 Int, +3 class) = +10
Linguistics 2 (+3 Int, +3 class) = +8
Perception 5 (+3 class) = +8
Spellcraft 4 (+3 Int, +3 class) = +10
Stealth 5 (+2 Dex, +3 class) = +10
Use Magic Device 5 (+3 class) = +8
With a Climber's Kit (+2 to Climb checks) and Thieves' Tools, the rogue 2/wizard 3 can take 10 on DC 20 Climb and Disable Device checks.
With a Climber's Kit (+2 to Climb checks) and Thieves' Tools, the rogue 2/wizard 3 can take 10 on DC 20 Climb and Disable Device checks.
Not if there's any risk involved in failing, he can't, and the scenarios you listed definitely have consequences for failing.
With a Climber's Kit (+2 to Climb checks) and Thieves' Tools, the rogue 2/wizard 3 can take 10 on DC 20 Climb and Disable Device checks.Not if there's any risk involved in failing, he can't, and the scenarios you listed definitely have consequences for failing.
PF RPG, pg. 86:
"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10... Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."
There are no distractions or threats specified when climbing the wall and around the pit. Just a risk involved in failure is not enough, according to RAW. That restriction is for taking 20.
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1. Ranger6/FighterX= This is because this gives a archer ranger Improved Precise at 6th when it is uaually a 11th level minimum feat followed by lots of feats given by the fighter class.
For any archer build I'd start with ranger and avoid dipping at all until after 6th. Imp. Precise Shot is just THAT good. With IPS and a longbow you can basically hit anything you can see on the battle mat without taking any penalties. Fighter levels on top of that are great though; any bonus to bow damage from Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, etc. makes Rapid Shot spam better and better. Sneak attack is less useful to archers since you can't flank with a bow.
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Also the whole rogue/wizard vs. straight wizard comparison is a little whacked. Any wizard worth his salt is going to be carrying around a pile of scrolls for uncommon situations. If I play a wizard, I never let myself get caught without a scroll of knock once I'm 3rd level. There are spells you can always use, and spells that you hardly ever use, but when you need them, there's no other solution. The former, we prepare daily; for the latter, we have Scribe Scroll.
It can help a rogue a lot to dip a level of wiz or sorc, because even low-level spells can totally obviate the need for some skills. So you maxed out Climb? How many times in an adventuring day are you going to use that? Once, perhaps? Unless it's some sort of crazy vertical adventure where you're climbing for hours, the wizard with a scroll of spider climb can do the same thing a rogue with maxed out Climb can do. Moreover, even a single level of wiz or sorc lets you use sorc/wiz scrolls and wands without worrying about UMD. (As an aside, anybody can dip a level of pal/rgr/clr/brd/drd and suddenly you have an extra healer... somebody who can use the infamous "happy stick" aka 750gp wand of cure light wounds.) Arcane trickster builds work best, IMO, when the spells support the utility aspect of the character instead of trying to build a "combat" arcane trickster.
Having said that, you can hardly do better for a solo campaign than a rogue/wizard. There's not an awful lot such a character can't overcome all on their own with the right combination of skills and spells.
But when the chips are down and my 5th-level party is squaring off against the BBEG and his minions in the epic final showdown, 100% of the time I'd rather have the 5th level straight wizard who can open with a fireball to clear the field a little, then lay a haste on us so we can decisively skull-crush the opposition. There's hardly anything more effective than the swift application of overwhelming firepower.
Now, he needs to sneak past the guards. Looks like he's casting Invisibility, because unless the guards are polite enough to sit around in a dark room, there's no cover or concealment. Oops again! I'm not sure why the guards don't notice the door opening, as a matter of fact.
So he sneaks across the room (hopefully his Stealth roll beats their Perception roll, but since PF's confused Perception rules make being invisible a good defense against being heard he should be okay). He picks the lock after a minute, and the guards don't notice this door opening either for some reason, so it's pit time.
Since the rogue 2/wizard 3 does not have to worry about time limits from spells, he can pick his moment. One of the benefits of using Disable Device to open a lock is that it's unlikely to alert anyone on the other side; he can ease the door open a crack (Stealth check vs. Perception; possibly with modifiers for torch light and being distracted if not alert) and watch the guards for an opening to slip in and close the door without them noticing (Stealth check vs. Perception, with the same modifiers). Also, who's assuming a dark room with no cover or concealment?
Now, it's the wizard's turn. He casts Fly, bypassing the wall entirely. He casts Invisibility before the door, hacks the lock open, and flits across the room to the other door. Now, our guards too dumb to notice the door opening are going to notice the door being hacked open, so two of them position themselves by the other door. The wizard, non-plussed, hacks away at the other door from one of the six squares (or rather, cubes) adjacent to that door, so he's playing guessing games with the guards. Alternately, he can take a minute or two for the guards to lose their vigilance. The wizard can take a minute to take 20 on bursting the door, too, whatever. (The guards probably can't make the DC 20 check to notice where the wizard is doing this, and if they can, the rogue/wizard has no hope whatsoever to sneak by.) Five minutes is a looooooong time in D&D combat time. Remember, Invisibility only stops working when you attack a creature.
Hacking open the first door alerts the guards, so they are looking right at the door when it is opened (Perception check vs. untrained Stealth +20); the guards probably won't detect the wizard, but they'll know something is going on and will react to the possibility of an invisible intruder. Even if the wizard waits a minute or two for the guards to relax, they will definitely notice when he starts hacking at/busting down the second door, at which point they will start attacking (using the rules for fighting invisible creatures under Invisibility on PF RPG pg. 563-564). As you said, a minute is a loooong time in combat. With 3-4 guards attacking each round, that's 30-40 attacks; even with the benefit of full concealment (50% miss chance) and the need to determine the wizard's location (probe two adjacent 5 ft squares per standard action, make a touch attack for each square), the wizard is going to be in danger. With the audible and visible effects of the wizard hacking at/busting down the door, the guards will already know which group of squares to check. If one or more of the guards has Blind-Fight, the wizard is in even more danger.
If you actually read my posts instead of ignoring them, it costs 750 gp for a mystic theurge to scribe scrolls to maintain a shield spell for one hour. Ditto for enlarge person. Craft wands of blur, bull's strength, and cat's grace (at 3 minutes per charge) for 2,750 gp each. How long does a typical dungeon exploration session take in game time (not counting travel time to reach the location)? Most often an hour or less.Like, I cannot even take this seriously. Burning 3500g an hour? Recasting buffs every three minutes? Is this party sponsored by Marlboro and Nike or something?
Also, I completely forgot that your totally awesome idea to be a theurge and cast Shield is really dumb because clerics get Shield of Faith.
Which 1) mystic theurges also get and 2) is a deflection bonus, which stacks with the shield spell.
As far as burning 3500 gp per hour, when you're going to make more than that in treasure (see table 12-5 Treasure Value per Encounter on PF RPG pg. 399), you can afford it.
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10... Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.Climbing a wall over a spiked pit is immediate danger of grievous injury or death. I'd give you the tall wall, as long as it's not more than one story tall or something; some GMs would rule a d6 damage fall is immediate danger.
Again with the GM intervention. RAW, the mere fact that there is a penalty for failure does not disallow taking a 10. The only things that disallow taking 10 are "distractions or threats (such as combat)." The pit and spikes are not "threats (such as combat)" that impact the character's ability to climb.
What you are thinking of are the rules for taking 20.
Also, your example wizard has higher str than con, just so he can take 10 on DC 20 climb checks. That's terribly amusing to me.
Con, Wis, and Cha are not specified, since they did not affect the items under discussion. Even using 15 point purchase, a 15, 14, and 12 leaves 1 point left without considering racial bonus(es); an elf (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con) or a half elf, half orc, or human (+2 to any one ability) could put 13 in Int using point buy (4 points to spend elsewhere, enough for a 14 Con) and still end up with 15 Int with the racial bonus. As a spellcaster, all advancements will be taken in the spellcasting ability score, which means a 16 Int at 4th character level.
A spiked pit isn't a threat? Why does it have a CR then?
A spiked pit isn't a threat? Why does it have a CR then?
That's "threats (such as combat)," not just a challenge/encounter. The pit and spikes have no immediate impact on the character's ability to climb, they only impose a penalty to failure. It has a CR because not every character has a +10 Climb skill check to be able to take 10 and will either need to expend resources or have another character's assistance in bypassing it.
Your reasoning would always require an Acrobatics check (useable untrained) to cross an 8 in wide beam (DC 10) without falling, something that most people can do if they're careful and not distracted (taking 10).