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... crafting takes time. It's not something you can really do while you're adventuring, unless you're an artificer with a portable hole and a homunculus that can craft for you.So your adventuring partys never rest or train? Unless you have a particular adventure that needs to be done within a specific time frame, an adventurer should have plenty of time to craft during rest/training.Generally speaking, adventures need to be done within a certain amount of time, and you can't just take off two weeks in the middle of one because your druid finally got enough ready cash together to enchant his +2 amulet of mighty fists to +3 (25k difference in price = 12.5k difference in cost = 13 days to enchant).
And no, we don't use any homebrew training rules. We use the ones in the book, the ones that say your characters are training while they're adventuring and thus don't need to spend time or money training to gain a level.
Just wanted to add that the few AP's I've read suggest at certain points a certain amount of downtime to allow or encourage characters taking time to create items or start a business etc..
The way I see it, adventuring IS training. That's where the challenges are, where the personal growth happens, where boys become men, yada yada...
Training rules were great. I don't think house rules is the right term, perhaps "Classic Rules". Bummer they were yanked.
... crafting takes time. It's not something you can really do while you're adventuring, unless you're an artificer with a portable hole and a homunculus that can craft for you.So your adventuring partys never rest or train? Unless you have a particular adventure that needs to be done within a specific time frame, an adventurer should have plenty of time to craft during rest/training.Generally speaking, adventures need to be done within a certain amount of time, and you can't just take off two weeks in the middle of one because your druid finally got enough ready cash together to enchant his +2 amulet of mighty fists to +3 (25k difference in price = 12.5k difference in cost = 13 days to enchant).
And no, we don't use any homebrew training rules. We use the ones in the book, the ones that say your characters are training while they're adventuring and thus don't need to spend time or money training to gain a level.
Even worse, since it takes 25 days to upgrade the +2 amulet to a +3 amulet (25k difference in the base price = 12.5k difference in material costs = 25 days to enchant).
As for me, in the last 4 or 5 years time during which I have been a player and/or a DM all of that time, with multiple DMs in different campaigns, I have never had any adventure where we had 25 days just sitting around with nothing to do.
Yeah, sure, we could have made the time, sometimes. Not while the princess was tied to the altar and we had to rescue her immediately or she would be sacrificed (never happened; I'm just using a cliche here), but maybe after we got her safely home and before we started off to the distand jungles in search of new adventure. Maybe if we had had anyone who wanted to kill 25 days in town cooling our heels to make a magic item, we might have made the time. Sometimes.
The fact is, most of our adventures were somewhat time sensitive. Usually there was an overarching campaign going on, and stuff was happening, armies were on the move, civilians were disappearing left and right, worlds were on the verge of being destroyed. Adventurers just can't take a month off during those kinds of adventures.
And later, when he wants to take nearly three months off to upgrade it to +5, well, that's dang near out of the question.
Oh, and spending two hours a day while adventuring means it will take him 100 days to upgrade an amulet from +2 to +3. Heck, by that time, he will have done so much adventuring he will be 8 levels higher and have no need of a puny +3 amulet at all. Even funnier if he finds a +4 amulet at about day 90...
As a DM, if I have a player taking feats to craft magic items and planning to use this feat (or why would he take it), I would want him to use it. I don't deliberately screw my players out of using their abilities. So I would make the time.
But on the other hand, as a DM, I like campaigns with overarching stories that make the world seem real, and full of peril, and make the PCs into heroes who save the world from that peril.
Unfortunately, those two things are almost diametrically opposed, like night and day or like good and evil. It's almost impossible to run that kind of campaign when characters are adventuring for a few weeks, then taking a couple months off, then adventuring for a few weeks, then taking another couple months off...
Everytime a campaign even remotely suggests "PCs can enjoy some downtime" I slap a "2 years have gone by" banner in front of the players, followed by the question "Please list your craft/profession/perform/handle animal modifiers on this sheet."
That's all well and good.
But in those two years:
- The princess who was kidnapped has been killed and reanimated as a banshee.
- The drow have risen and slaughtered 4 dwarven cities. No survivors.
- The lich king has destroyed two more kingdoms and now his army is unstoppable.
- Vampires have dominated the king and all his court and the kingdom is entirely at their mercy.
- Some archmage has summoned a horde of demons who have built a permanent gateway and, with no heroes to stop them, half the demonic population of the abyss is running rampant through the streets of every city in the land.
Or, maybe some really nasty stuff has happened.
But, at least your heroes have some new toys to play with.
And none of that even begins to deal with the question of what the fighter, rogue, and paladin are doing while the wizard and cleric are whipping up magic items for two years. Knowing those guys, they're off on some adventure. And another adventure. And another adventure. And another adventure. And when the crafters are ready to close up their workshops and hit the road for adventure, they'll find that their companions have gained 8 levels in the past two years and don't want to adventure with such wimpy lowbies now.
(well, OK, that won't happen if you just wave your DM hand and say "two years just passed" - but the first question I would ask is what did I do for two years since I have no crafting feats, and I wouldn't take "nothing" for an answer).
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that many campaigns, including every single AP that Paizo has published, don't have opportunities to take two years off. Most of them have no opportunity to even take two months off. Doing so would allow the bad guys to win.
Sure, the DM can step in and alter the AP. Unless, of course, the players have already discovered that certain things are going to happen by the next full moon, or by the summer solstice, or when the sand of this hourglass runs out. Taking two months off, or two hours off, in some of those cases, might completely defeat the existing story line.
All I'm saying is, most published adventures have deadlines. Most worlds that have any verisimilitude at all have NPCs, both good guys and bad guys, who are doing things - and some of them are bastions of ultimate evil who are going to bring ruin throughout the land. Even homegrown adventures, or at least those I've created, those I've played in, and those I've heard about from friends and fellow RPers, usually have many time-critical plotlines to deal with.
A level 5 wildshaping druid can't really take two turns of attacks from CR 5 foes, near as I can tell.
Exactly. And this is why a druid should simply summon a dire wolf, which I will feel could win alone against a dire lion due to the trip attack and strength bonus. 1d8+10 almost autohit + trip is nice ;-)
Or 1d3 hippogriffs would shred that lion I guess.And in the mean time said druid could do other things, drop a flaming sphere
Everytime a campaign even remotely suggests "PCs can enjoy some downtime" I slap a "2 years have gone by" banner in front of the players, followed by the question "Please list your craft/profession/perform/handle animal modifiers on this sheet."That's all well and good.
But in those two years:
- The princess who was kidnapped has been killed and reanimated as a banshee.
- The drow have risen and slaughtered 4 dwarven cities. No survivors.
- The lich king has destroyed two more kingdoms and now his army is unstoppable.
- Vampires have dominated the king and all his court and the kingdom is entirely at their mercy.
- Some archmage has summoned a horde of demons who have built a permanent gateway and, with no heroes to stop them, half the demonic population of the abyss is running rampant through the streets of every city in the land.
Or, maybe some really nasty stuff has happened.
But, at least your heroes have some new toys to play with.
And none of that even begins to deal with the question of what the fighter, rogue, and paladin are doing while the wizard and cleric are whipping up magic items for two years. Knowing those guys, they're off on some adventure. And another adventure. And another adventure. And another adventure. And when the crafters are ready to close up their workshops and hit the road for adventure, they'll find that their companions have gained 8 levels in the past two years and don't want to adventure with such wimpy lowbies now.
In general you only do the 'wave the x amount of time has passed as downtime at the END of a story arch, and rarely in the middle of one. The princess is saved, the lich defeated etc. You guys have some time to rest.
Do your adventuring groups adventure every day of their lives without rest? Even the most potent warrior needs time.
As for what everyone else does, generally I allow the player to take on political considerations, or start buisinesses. You know make some kind of use of the proffession skills, or at least allow a little interesting roleplay. The paladin might become a member of a church or organization, the rogue begins a black market magic item buisiness, the fighter opens a training facility. All these things better tie the characters to the location/setting beyond what occurred prior to their first level. It also provides future plot hooks. Someone comes to the rogue with a rare item to be fenced, one of the fighter's students are kidnapped, the paladins church is waging a campain to rid region x of undead.
These sorts of things have always been necessary both from a story and immersion perspective, and even without crafting, the wizard needs significant downtime for reasearching and writing new spells into his spellbook. Some prestige classes require joining an organization, do organizations in your world only involve and afternoon worth of initiation? There are lots of reasons for significant downtime, its just that crafting has become a more prominent reason for it then it was before.
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Everytime a campaign even remotely suggests "PCs can enjoy some downtime" I slap a "2 years have gone by" banner in front of the players, followed by the question "Please list your craft/profession/perform/handle animal modifiers on this sheet."That's all well and good.
But in those two years:
- The princess who was kidnapped has been killed and reanimated as a banshee.
- The drow have risen and slaughtered 4 dwarven cities. No survivors.
- The lich king has destroyed two more kingdoms and now his army is unstoppable.
- Vampires have dominated the king and all his court and the kingdom is entirely at their mercy.
- Some archmage has summoned a horde of demons who have built a permanent gateway and, with no heroes to stop them, half the demonic population of the abyss is running rampant through the streets of every city in the land.
Or, maybe some really nasty stuff has happened.
But, at least your heroes have some new toys to play with.
And none of that even begins to deal with the question of what the fighter, rogue, and paladin are doing while the wizard and cleric are whipping up magic items for two years. Knowing those guys, they're off on some adventure. And another adventure. And another adventure. And another adventure. And when the crafters are ready to close up their workshops and hit the road for adventure, they'll find that their companions have gained 8 levels in the past two years and don't want to adventure with such wimpy lowbies now.
In general you only do the 'wave the x amount of time has passed as downtime at the END of a story arch, and rarely in the middle of one. The princess is saved, the lich defeated etc. You guys have some time to rest.
Do your adventuring groups adventure every day of their lives without rest? Even the most potent warrior needs time.
As for what everyone else does, generally I allow the player to take on political considerations, or start buisinesses. You know make some kind of use of the proffession skills, or at least allow a little interesting roleplay. The paladin might become a member of a church or organization, the rogue begins a black market magic item buisiness, the fighter opens a training facility. All these things better tie the characters to the location/setting beyond what occurred prior to their first level. It also provides future plot hooks. Someone comes to the rogue with a rare item to be fenced, one of the fighter's students are kidnapped, the paladins church is waging a campain to rid region x of undead.
These sorts of things have always been necessary both from a story and immersion perspective, and even without crafting, the wizard needs significant downtime for reasearching and writing new spells into his spellbook. Some prestige classes require joining an organization, do organizations in your world only involve and afternoon worth of initiation? There are lots of reasons for significant downtime, its just that crafting has become a more prominent reason for it then it was before.
Kolo: I agree 100%: these things are necessary to take into account and allow for, otherwise the campaign starts looking like a darn video game. It is very much worth it for the DM to take an extra 10 minute of prep time to consider the effects of PC decisions/projects during downtime.
DM_Blake: I understand what you may be referring to, as *some* pre-published campaigns may have had that sense of urgency built into them, but as far as I have seen most APs (I am personally familiar with Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, and Council of Thieves) all have blurbs at the end of some of the chapters saying the the PCs can take some downtime, with no baddies doing anything in the background... (for instance, at the end of House of the Beast, the PCs could really take 10 years off if they want to; downtime is important, otherwise you finish off campaigns near level 20 with a bunch of 20 year old adventurers, which looks ridiculous IMO; I also like to apply the rules on aging, which are beneficial to spellcasters, and downtime is a good way to get there... it's also a nice way to show players who play human fighters that there is a downside to the extra human feat, and that you can get a whole lot of mileage with an elf or dwarf fighter, for instance...)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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One of the best realistic shape is the tiger (pounce, rake, nice attacks).
You can shift into a tiger at level 6.
Nit pick, you need 8th level to get Pounce/Rake because it is only available in Beast Shape III.
Also, as I understand, one of the design focus of 3.p rules was to switch the Wild Shape/Polymorph paradigm from "you become these" to "you get some of these qualities."
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Man I love the new druid. This is quickly becoming my favorite class. One of my fave is to encase all enemies in a circle-shaped Wall of Thorns, shifting into Huge Triceratops form, and then crossing through the thorns to TRAMPLE THEM ALL!!! (finishing the round outside the circle of course, MUHAHAHAHAHA!)
In general you only do the 'wave the x amount of time has passed as downtime at the END of a story arch, and rarely in the middle of one. The princess is saved, the lich defeated etc. You guys have some time to rest.
Do your adventuring groups adventure every day of their lives without rest? Even the most potent warrior needs time.
The answer is It Depends.
Most groups I've been in have very little crafting beyond scrolls between adventures and a few Wondrous items.
Man I love the new druid. This is quickly becoming my favorite class. One of my fave is to encase all enemies in a circle-shaped Wall of Thorns, shifting into Huge Triceratops form, and then crossing through the thorns to TRAMPLE THEM ALL!!! (finishing the round outside the circle of course, MUHAHAHAHAHA!)
You do know that you can't use your Woodland Stride ability to move through a wall of thorns don't you?
Hmm... never mind there is a specific exception Hmm..
lots of stuff
Some campaigns may not have downtime. You are allowed to craft 8 hours a day if that is all you do, and if you are adventuring you can craft 2 hours a day while adventuring. You may not be able to make really expensive items while adventuring very easily, but you can make a lot of wonderous items and some low enhancement weapons and armor.
We are playing legacy of fire right now and in the first book there was absolutely no downtime and there wasn't even anywhere to buy anything except like 5 varieties of potions. Between the first and second book there is a year of downtime with characters newly at level 5. You can make a lot of +1 weapons and armor and wonderous items in a year.
lots of stuffSome campaigns may not have downtime. You are allowed to craft 8 hours a day if that is all you do, and if you are adventuring you can craft 2 hours a day while adventuring. You may not be able to make really expensive items while adventuring very easily, but you can make a lot of wonderous items and some low enhancement weapons and armor.
We are playing legacy of fire right now and in the first book there was absolutely no downtime and there wasn't even anywhere to buy anything except like 5 varieties of potions. Between the first and second book there is a year of downtime with characters newly at level 5. You can make a lot of +1 weapons and armor and wonderous items in a year.
But where do you get the gold to do that? Flipping through the module I see a lot of magic items but not huge piles of gold.
But where do you get the gold to do that? Flipping through the module I see a lot of magic items but not huge piles of gold.lots of stuffSome campaigns may not have downtime. You are allowed to craft 8 hours a day if that is all you do, and if you are adventuring you can craft 2 hours a day while adventuring. You may not be able to make really expensive items while adventuring very easily, but you can make a lot of wonderous items and some low enhancement weapons and armor.
We are playing legacy of fire right now and in the first book there was absolutely no downtime and there wasn't even anywhere to buy anything except like 5 varieties of potions. Between the first and second book there is a year of downtime with characters newly at level 5. You can make a lot of +1 weapons and armor and wonderous items in a year.
A year is plenty of time for trips to Katapesh and back... and one of the players (namely me) is a merchant/tradesperson to boot (the only reason the character was originally adventuring was to "find Haleem").
A year is plenty of time for trips to Katapesh and back... and one of the players (namely me) is a merchant/tradesperson to boot (the only reason the character was originally adventuring was to "find Haleem").But where do you get the gold to do that? Flipping through the module I see a lot of magic items but not huge piles of gold.lots of stuffSome campaigns may not have downtime. You are allowed to craft 8 hours a day if that is all you do, and if you are adventuring you can craft 2 hours a day while adventuring. You may not be able to make really expensive items while adventuring very easily, but you can make a lot of wonderous items and some low enhancement weapons and armor.
We are playing legacy of fire right now and in the first book there was absolutely no downtime and there wasn't even anywhere to buy anything except like 5 varieties of potions. Between the first and second book there is a year of downtime with characters newly at level 5. You can make a lot of +1 weapons and armor and wonderous items in a year.
*points to abe* what he said. We opened a trade route to Katapesh.. that's the whole purpose of the first book
A year is plenty of time for trips to Katapesh and back... and one of the players (namely me) is a merchant/tradesperson to boot (the only reason the character was originally adventuring was to "find Haleem").
I don't see where doing that gives you thousands of gold to craft tons of magic items. It's 1500GP. I suppose if the everyone in the party does this you can craft 3000gp worth of items for each. That's not a huge percentage of your total wealth at that level.
I'm not suggesting there is no benefit to crafting. Just that it's generally not a big percentage of total character wealth.
Edit: Actually, not even that so much as it's just not that way in most groups.
A year is plenty of time for trips to Katapesh and back... and one of the players (namely me) is a merchant/tradesperson to boot (the only reason the character was originally adventuring was to "find Haleem").I don't see where doing that gives you thousands of gold to craft tons of magic items. It's 1500GP. I suppose if the everyone in the party does this you can craft 3000gp worth of items for each. That's not a huge percentage of your total wealth at that level.
I'm not suggesting there is no benefit to crafting. Just that it's generally not a big percentage of total character wealth.
Edit: Actually, not even that so much as it's just not that way in most groups.
I'm a bit confused by your post, where the 1500 and 3000 gp are coming from.
A year is enough time to craft over 300K in magic items if you have the resources to do so.
A year is plenty of time for trips to Katapesh and back... and one of the players (namely me) is a merchant/tradesperson to boot (the only reason the character was originally adventuring was to "find Haleem").I don't see where doing that gives you thousands of gold to craft tons of magic items. It's 1500GP. I suppose if the everyone in the party does this you can craft 3000gp worth of items for each. That's not a huge percentage of your total wealth at that level.
I'm not suggesting there is no benefit to crafting. Just that it's generally not a big percentage of total character wealth.
Edit: Actually, not even that so much as it's just not that way in most groups.
Selling stuff that we found we (I) used the gold from doing to to craft my items, especially sense I was on the low end of the character wealth at the time. Now we are currently above wealth, however judging by the wealth we would have had from simply splitting all the items we got we aren't that much over for the adventure path we are doing... about 20k each currently and just the adventure path (meaning increasing my split at everyone else's expense) would probably have dropped that to about 13~14k each.
Depending on how the DM runs and what is expected out of the item creation feats crafting can account for anywhere from a 0% net increase in character wealth to a 100% increase in character wealth... the biggest issue is the DM, the group as a whole and their expectations.
Where did your numbers come from by the way? They seem to have appeared out of thin air and are supported by anything from what I can see.
Please note we did the shopping and crafting in the town of Katapesh.
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Man I love the new druid. This is quickly becoming my favorite class. One of my fave is to encase all enemies in a circle-shaped Wall of Thorns, shifting into Huge Triceratops form, and then crossing through the thorns to TRAMPLE THEM ALL!!! (finishing the round outside the circle of course, MUHAHAHAHAHA!)You do know that you can't use your Woodland Stride ability to move through a wall of thorns don't you?
Hmm... never mind there is a specific exception Hmm..
Yes.. indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed! :)
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A year is plenty of time for trips to Katapesh and back... and one of the players (namely me) is a merchant/tradesperson to boot (the only reason the character was originally adventuring was to "find Haleem").I don't see where doing that gives you thousands of gold to craft tons of magic items. It's 1500GP. I suppose if the everyone in the party does this you can craft 3000gp worth of items for each. That's not a huge percentage of your total wealth at that level.
I'm not suggesting there is no benefit to crafting. Just that it's generally not a big percentage of total character wealth.
Edit: Actually, not even that so much as it's just not that way in most groups.
If you do the set piece in the first book, and if you keep ALL the loot (all mundane armor/weapons included, plus all rewards) you'll end up with several thousands per PC after the first book (my group each bagged about 6-8K each)
By the end of the 2nd book, each PC's total worth is about 25K in my campaign anyhow (including a few random encounters, and all of Zayifid's office stuff...)
Is there a reference to the plant domain unarmed boost not adding to natural attacks?
Does this mean monks 'unarmed attacks' can no longer be benefited by 'improved natural attack'?
An unarmed strike and a natural attack are two expressly different types of attacks.
The PRD lists under Standard Actions that a melee attack, a ranged attack, an unarmed strike, and a natural attack are all different types of attacks.
This is also implicit in the writeup of the amulet of mighty fists. If unarmed strikes and natural attacks were the same, there would be no need to state that the amulet's bonus applies to both types of attacks.
Since the Plant domain specifically states "unarmed strikes," it does not, by RAW, apply to natural attacks.
Is there a reference to the plant domain unarmed boost not adding to natural attacks?
Does this mean monks 'unarmed attacks' can no longer be benefited by 'improved natural attack'?
An unarmed strike and a natural attack are two expressly different types of attacks.
The PRD lists under Standard Actions that a melee attack, a ranged attack, an unarmed strike, and a natural attack are all different types of attacks.
This is also implicit in the writeup of the amulet of mighty fists. If unarmed strikes and natural attacks were the same, there would be no need to state that the amulet's bonus applies to both types of attacks.
Since the Plant domain specifically states "unarmed strikes," it does not, by RAW, apply to natural attacks.
Not so fast.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Is there a reference to the plant domain unarmed boost not adding to natural attacks?
Does this mean monks 'unarmed attacks' can no longer be benefited by 'improved natural attack'?
An unarmed strike and a natural attack are two expressly different types of attacks.
The PRD lists under Standard Actions that a melee attack, a ranged attack, an unarmed strike, and a natural attack are all different types of attacks.
This is also implicit in the writeup of the amulet of mighty fists. If unarmed strikes and natural attacks were the same, there would be no need to state that the amulet's bonus applies to both types of attacks.
Since the Plant domain specifically states "unarmed strikes," it does not, by RAW, apply to natural attacks.
Not so fast.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Agreement with Zurai, please note this only counts for the monk anyone else has to find another way to deal with it.
So no use for plant domain druids. Harsh.
Seems the Spring Attack, Vital Strike path is best for melee druids. The bigger forms dice stack up fast.
I just can't understand why someone would give up a sweet animal companion for some lousy wooden hands in the first place.
Incidentally, I think that particular person started a thread asking about if it applied, and ended up working out with the DM that they could have the bonus because, fundamentally, it isn't world-beating, especially given its limited duration. Might have been someone else, but it seems kind of unlikely.
For me, the animal companion is one of the defining abilities of a druid (and as such, I kind of despise that rangers and pallies also get them, but grudgingly accept that they can have limited options for companions, which isn't spelled out clearly for the paladin but is my interpretation). As it stands, though, an animal companion is nothing to sneeze at.
I see the druid as a jack-of-all-trades kind of class. They'll never be the best at much of anything, but the more the player is able to think of clever things the more they can pull off. Standing and getting hit repeatedly is one of the few things that you will never be particularly great at, which is why the crowd control powers like whirlwind are the way to "tank" as it were. If you can keep the big bad guy away from you and your party, giving up your action each turn to allow everyone else to just keep shooting without the bad guy from ever reaching the party seems fair, even if you can't drop 'im off a cliff.
For what it's worth, I created an NPC for my current game that will eventually be a druid/wizard/arcane hierophant and while the individual spellcasting power/melee power/whatever else power will be weakened (a lot at lower levels), the character will have more options once she starts getting to those arcane hierophant levels.
It just seems kind of like the Batman of character concepts. Enough gadgets to solve every problem, and preparation+creativity is the secret to victory over everything. Not as powerful as Superman, but that's why you keep Kryptonite in your utility belt.
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Lots of stuff about a shape shifted druid taking on a creature of equal CR to druid level in single combat.
I just wanted to take the time to point out that your analogy is horribly flawed. I must remind you that a CR5 is meant to be a _challenge_ for _four_ characters of 5th level or equivalent. It is meant to be a _challenge_ for _six_ characters of 4th level.
Telling me that a druid is weak and useless because it can't shape shift and whip the backside of a creature meant to be a challenge for him and 3 of his companions makes me really wonder what kind of game you're playing. Would a single 5th level fighter have a chance against a dire lion in single combat? His AC may be higher but his HP won't be much different and the CMD is spot on too.
Lets look at this from something more balanced. Let's pit the same druid against your average CR3. Now I'm not going to say that facing off against an Ogre with an AC of 17, 30 HP, a CMD of 18, and the ability to hit about 50% of the time for an average of 16 dmg is much better but it will be a much more even fight. As, it's supposed to be! The crocodile druid has more HP, an equivalent AC, a better chance of hitting the Ogre than the other way around, and most likely a higher CMB.
A group of 4 such Ogres is an EL of 7, which is extremely challenging for a group of four 5th level characters and the druid has a good chance of holding his own until more help arrives when the first party member kills their foe.
Just my $0.02
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Yes.. indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed! :)Man I love the new druid. This is quickly becoming my favorite class. One of my fave is to encase all enemies in a circle-shaped Wall of Thorns, shifting into Huge Triceratops form, and then crossing through the thorns to TRAMPLE THEM ALL!!! (finishing the round outside the circle of course, MUHAHAHAHAHA!)You do know that you can't use your Woodland Stride ability to move through a wall of thorns don't you?
Hmm... never mind there is a specific exception Hmm..
Yep I have a druid and a ranger/dervish in my Second Darkness game and they quite often make use of this tactic. The ranger ties half the battlefield up with Wall of Thorns. The druid then concentrates his spellcasting on the enemies not in the thorns along with the Wizard, Cleric, Monk, & Fighter. Meanwhile, the ranger/dervish uses her woodland stride to slip into the wall and begins dancing and chopping everyone inside to bits over the next few rounds. Very effective against all opponents who lack above average strength for their level or have the woodland stride ability themselves.
Some people like being an atacking, willed animal and being active in melee instead of living vicariously thru a slave.That's cool, but understand that a wild shaping druid has all of the disadvantages of an animal, like bad defenses and some basic issues with DR. Conversely, they don't get the main advantage: overwhelming offense for their CR. 3.5 druids used to get the advantage, and as it turns out overwhelming offense plus magic to cover the holes just happens to win D&D 3e. You can't play like that any more, and a "shifting-focused" druid is going to have lots of situations where level-appropriate enemies casually waste him.
So, you need to either avoid those situations, or become very good at identifying them.
In what way are we still talking about druids having bad defenses and bad offense. I thought we had already shown their damage per round to be capable of awesomeness if that is what you want your druid to do. You are stating your opinion like fact, when facts contradict your opinion.
Depending on how the DM runs and what is expected out of the item creation feats crafting can account for anywhere from a 0% net increase in character wealth to a 100% increase in character wealth... the biggest issue is the DM, the group as a whole and their expectations.
That's pretty much it.
Where did your numbers come from by the way? They seem to have appeared out of thin air and are supported by anything from what I can see.
Some assumptions I made based on the AP and what you said. Please disregard, I don't want to put spoilers in here.
I just wanted to take the time to point out that your analogy is horribly flawed. I must remind you that a CR5 is meant to be a _challenge_ for _four_ characters of 5th level or equivalent. It is meant to be a _challenge_ for _six_ characters of 4th level.My point is that melee is an exceedingly dangerous place for a druid against CR 5. I'm not expecting it to crush the opposition and survive the retaliation, as it could before.
However, I am expecting it to crush the opposition or survive the retaliation, else the druid has no business being in melee combat at all with that foe, unless it is to finish it off. Note that melee classes generally can survive melee with the various sluggers I offered IME.
Now, with my anecdotal experience and a buck you can buy a cup of coffee. So let's redo the test!
Telling me that a druid is weak and useless because it can't shape shift and whip the backside of a creature meant to be a challenge for him and 3 of his companions makes me really wonder what kind of game you're playing. Would a single 5th level fighter have a chance against a dire lion in single combat? His AC may be higher but his HP won't be much different and the CMD is spot on too.Well, let's see. I'm going to try a scratch fighter against the same three foes. Since it is a fighter, I'm going to go far enough to do his feats and magic items; if someone wants to do that for the druid, too, and redo the stuff from before, that's fine.
Bill the fighter specializes in greatswordery. His stats (same 28 point buy) are 19/14/16/8/10/8 after racial and statup. His feats are Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Spec (greatsword), Dodge, Improved Initiative, and some other junk. He has a +1 greatsword, +1 full plate, and +2 str gloves and some minor stuff. (Wiser than the +2 str gloves would be paying for a permanent Enlarge Person but let's say he's not that clever.) So he's not exactly specialized in defense.
52 HP
AC 21 (22 when...
Your comparison is flawed. I smart druid player would turn into a form that had multiple attacks at 5th such as a raptor and benifit from this increasing his damage output...
If the druid was ment to be able to stand in melee like a fighter then s/he wouldn't have a whole list of spells to draw off of in the first place. If you want to use wild shape to beat the dire lion then turn into a bird and cast flaming sphere or what not. Between wildshape and spells and everything else a druid has, s/he has the ability to fight against the weekness of most situations thrown his/her way. So while they are not great at anything but good at everything, they can choose what to do against the foe that is great at something but bad when it faces something else and the druid can then become that something else.
Your comparison is flawed. I smart druid player would turn into a form that had multiple attacks at 5th such as a raptor and benifit from this increasing his damage output...It means that the druid is completely hopeless against the two DR 5/whatever foes, and doesn't give the druid the ability to not lose to the lion in one or two rounds, because the lion just overwhelms the druid offensively.
I'm not really inclined to redo the whole test with the druid in tiger form or whatever. If you want to redo my tests, be my guest.
I did the math myself in a different thread labeled multi attack down below...showed how Druids can keep up with the power curve for damage...
Your comparison is flawed. I smart druid player would turn into a form that had multiple attacks at 5th such as a raptor and benifit from this increasing his damage output...It means that the druid is completely hopeless against the two DR 5/whatever foes, and doesn't give the druid the ability to not lose to the lion in one or two rounds, because the lion just overwhelms the druid offensively.
I'm not really inclined to redo the whole test with the druid in tiger form or whatever. If you want to redo my tests, be my guest.
I like the test where the druid dominates the dire lion and has it attack the earth elemental, then becomes one himself and goes after it also.