I play a Druid that's heading for Shifter in order to emphasise wild shape to the expense of most other abilities.
However, my group is switching to Pathfinder and Druids as wild shape combat monsters look rather depressing now.
I'm stuck. Without going into splatbooks, is there any way in Pathfinder to make a shifting-focused Druid? It looks like Sorcerers and Wizards do vastly better at turning into combat monsters and I'd like to find a way for my character to remain a Druid and not suck.
I play a Druid that's heading for Shifter in order to emphasise wild shape to the expense of most other abilities.
However, my group is switching to Pathfinder and Druids as wild shape combat monsters look rather depressing now.
I'm stuck. Without going into splatbooks, is there any way in Pathfinder to make a shifting-focused Druid? It looks like Sorcerers and Wizards do vastly better at turning into combat monsters and I'd like to find a way for my character to remain a Druid and not suck.
Well then, I have bad news for you...
Druids in 3.x ruled the battlefields, transforming into lethal monsters of destruction almost as fearsome as my own awsome armored self.
Then Pathfinder came along and said, quite rightly so (rightly, because we tarrasques should have no contenders for our battlefield supremacy), that druids need to be reigned-in, held in check, toned down. "Nerfed" if you will.
And, in the true spirit of all great nerfings that have come before, Pathfinder showed no restraint, toppling the once proud druidzillas into a mere humbled remnant of their former glory, puny humans in foam-rubber monster suits yelling a timid "Roar! Please fear my puny monsterish charade!"
So now your only hope is to revise your druid from the ground up, build him with vast STR, DEX, and CON because now you'll need it. Sacrifice your INT and CHA even if it means the animals of the woods despise you and you lack the skills to make it otherwise, for you dare not spread your versatility so thin. At least with impressive phiscal ability scores, you will be a strong man in a foam-rubber monster suit...
How many abilities are you willing to sacrifice? Spells? 3.5 wildshapers don't focus on spells anyway.
I suppose you can drop wisdom to a 13, pick up a nice +6wis item (name escapes me) for 9th level spells, and put most of your stats into the physicals. You can put your spell slots into buffs and healing, drop cha and int and put everything else into str, dex and con.
It's not the same as the original druid, but you do what you must.
And you will still be a very below par fake-fighter. We have to face it, druid shape shifting has become a flavour tool with handy utility use. Druids are still excellent battlefield controllers and summoners though. Plant growth still isn't nerfed like solid fog (movement restrict to 5 feet). Drop some summons on the enemy and they will be stuck there battling fodder critters forever while your party can shoot freely at range until they die.
What I mean by the expense of other abilities is the loss of spellcasting and animal companion progression and all the other druid stuff in order to get access to Improved Wild Shape and all the stuff that comes with Shifter.
A Remorhaz PC is pretty silly.
So, that's it, then? It's rather disappointing that I can't make good use of Wild Shape.
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A custom class that sacrifices the Animal Companion class feature to instead turn into an animal using it's Animal Companion stats could be do-able.
That sort of Druid would have good saves in all categories and start gaining a natural armor bonus, Str/Dex bonuses and Evasion at 3rd level, Multiattack at 9th and Improved Evasion at 15th, while in animal form. Heck, maybe the Druid even gets the advantage of Devotion, to represent the primal, untamable state it enters while in 'beast-mind.'
By 20th level, any form it assumed would have a +12 natural armor and +6 Str and Dex over that of the base animal, with Ape, Badger/Wolverine, Bear, Eagle/Owl/Hawk, Boar, Lion/Tiger, Cheetah/Leopard, Crocodile, Deinonychus/Velociraptor, Dog, Horse, Pony, Shark, Constictor, Viper and Wolf as it's options.
As the Druid gains the ability to assume Large animal forms (at 6th level) and Huge animal forms (at 8th level) it would be able to add the Giant creature template to it's animal form as well (see Pathfinder Bestiary preview I). If this Druid is also sacrificing the ability to turn into elementals and / or plants, perhaps at the appropriate levels it can gain the ability to add the Advanced Creature template to it's animal forms as well! (Also Pathfinder Bestiary, preview I).
For an animal that normally caps out at Small or Medium (like an Eagle or Wolverine), the Druid could apply multiple instances of the Giant Creature template. (Yeah, that's right, a Huge Eagle, at 8th level, with a Str 26, Dex 11, Con 26, natural armor +14, bite and talons either 1d10+X or 2d6+X, depending on what comes after 1d8 for natural weapons. Incoming, suckers!)
Custom classes aren't permitted.
I was going for Natural Bond to keep the companion up to spec while using Wild Shape to fight alongside the fuzzy fellow. Summon a pile of Dire Wolves, Buff companion + summons with Animal Growth (Druid 10/Shifter 10 gets up to 5th level spells) then use magical beast Improved Wild Shape and dive in. Lots of monsters in combat.
I was going for Natural Bond to keep the companion up to spec while using Wild Shape to fight alongside the fuzzy fellow. Summon a pile of Dire Wolves, Buff companion + summons with Animal Growth (Druid 10/Shifter 10 gets up to 5th level spells) then use magical beast Improved Wild Shape and dive in. Lots of monsters in combat.
What level can you start? If you can start at a higher level, then you can min/max yourself to indeed fight with your summoned zoo and animal companion.
* Take rapid spell and actually memorize the summon spells so you can cast them as standard action. This takes a +1 spell slot, but with a Ring of the Beast you can cast SNA IV at spell slot 3 etc, so that nullifies the +1.* Take fast shape to shape as movement.
* If you don't have 4 encounters a day, take a Belt of battle for an extra full round action to cast animal growth and you will be able to have your summoned menagerie + buffed companion + wildshaping ready after round 1 and shape in some animal with a lot of attacks of course.
Starting level 2. I was going to hit Shifter at level 8.
And it's fairly moot now. It looks like I'll be restarting as a Ranger with two weapon fighting. I can't decide what weapons to use yet, as I can't figure out what is most suitable for a savage combatant that was almost literally raised by wolves. Natural Bond should be good enough to keep the Animal Companion up to par.
No zoo, but it lets the character fight alongside the animal companion with decent effectiveness. Unlike Druid, the build actually gets a bit more powerful in Pathfinder. Rather than the animal companion's progression being based on 1/2 HD +3 (for Natural Bond) up to max of HD, it's straight HD (PF Ranger's companion is equivalent to Druid -3, and Natural Bond brings that back up). Here's hoping I'm allowed to take a 3.5 feat.
And..while I concede that wildshaping has been nerfed utterly, I can't say it's been nerfed to nothingness. As a straight druid, it's a subpar fighter with spells.
Which seems perfect to me. Sub-par fighter with spells sounds good. As good a fighter at fighting plus spells sounds broken.
Druids aren't warriors. They're priests. They get full-time spellcasting. While many consider the spell list boring, it's still a full-force spell list with full caster level and full progression up to level 9. And you usually find a couple of spells that can be useful, if only to increase your army of helpers.
So they can be decent warriors (you don't get to munchkin your way through a thousand and one monster books to find the perfect wild shape, but the bonuses aren't that bad), AND can do decent spellcasting (some of those spells are quite good!), AND can get help (via spontaneous summoning). And let's not forget you get a powerful extra warrior. Not quite good as a fighter, that one, but he's a bonus.
And..while I concede that wildshaping has been nerfed utterly, I can't say it's been nerfed to nothingness. As a straight druid, it's a subpar fighter with spells.Which seems perfect to me. Sub-par fighter with spells sounds good. As good a fighter at fighting plus spells sounds broken.
Druids aren't warriors. They're priests. They get full-time spellcasting. While many consider the spell list boring, it's still a full-force spell list with full caster level and full progression up to level 9. And you usually find a couple of spells that can be useful, if only to increase your army of helpers.
So they can be decent warriors (you don't get to munchkin your way through a thousand and one monster books to find the perfect wild shape, but the bonuses aren't that bad), AND can do decent spellcasting (some of those spells are quite good!), AND can get help (via spontaneous summoning). And let's not forget you get a powerful extra warrior. Not quite good as a fighter, that one, but he's a bonus.
Druids are still broken...you just have to think about it a little bit mroe now...
What I mean by the expense of other abilities is the loss of spellcasting and animal companion progression and all the other druid stuff in order to get access to Improved Wild Shape and all the stuff that comes with Shifter.
A Remorhaz PC is pretty silly.
So, that's it, then? It's rather disappointing that I can't make good use of Wild Shape.
Druids are arguably better now, take a halfling druid with 12 STR and have him wildshape at level 4 into an eagle giving himself +dex and +natural armor, You have a small flying creature that actually has a strength score.
Take a half-orc with 16 STR and have him wildshape into a medium pouncing creature, then add bull strength and you have 5 attacks with 22 STR very early in the game.
Druid's don't suck they're just different now. The new amulet of mighty fists has some incredible options for them.
Again, no access to much outside SRD here. Still, I can see why stuff like that shouldn't be allowed. Hydra shape, anyone?
I took Beast Shape out of the ELH and made it into a non-epic level variant. Basically, you take the feat, and you're granted the full range of creatures as granted by the spells that Wild Shape emulates.
Feat: Magical Beast Wildshape
Requirements: Knowledge (arcana) X ranks
Benefits: When druids take this feat, with the appropriate number of knowledge (arcana) ranks equivalent to the caster level of the spell, you gain the full benefits of the spell. The number of ranks required is the equivalent minimum caster level to cast the spell wildshape emulates.
Normal: Druids may only wildshape into animals, elementals, and plant creatures as per the spell wildshape emulates.
What does this give you? Nothing tremendously spectacular that you didn't have before, except that you get a larger variety of combinations of abilities according to the spells. With the feat having such a steep skill point sink involved, I think it fairly well justified.
So, since there is no large flying creature in the SRD that allows you to carry a teammate, you can now wildshape into a pegasus and carry your ally.
Yeah, that should be fixed. Condor sounds like a good choice :)
So, since there is no large flying creature in the SRD that allows you to carry a teammate, you can now wildshape into a pegasus and carry your ally.
Its fixed in the bestiary.
Its fixed in the bestiary.Yeah, that should be fixed. Condor sounds like a good choice :)
So, since there is no large flying creature in the SRD that allows you to carry a teammate, you can now wildshape into a pegasus and carry your ally.
Giant Eagle?
Dire Duck?Pteranodon?
Dire Bat?
Dire Boar?
Which one were you thinkgin?
Giant Eagle? Magical animal
Pteranodon? YES
Dire Bat? YES
Dire Boar? HUH?
Giant Eagle? Magical animal
Pteranodon? YES
Dire Bat? YES
Dire Boar? HUH?
What, Pigs can't fly?
What, Pigs can't fly?
They use to be able to, but Shared Spell got smacked with the nerf bat as well. You can only use share spell with spells that come from a class that has the animal companion feature. Now a Druid/Wizard will have to wait until he becomes an Arcane Heirophant to share spells like Fly with his companion... because it becomes a Companion "Familiar".
Though there are a few Druid spells that allow things similar to flight, also not CORE, at least not the ones I'm thinking of.
As good a fighter at fighting plus spells sounds broken.I thought they called it a cleric.
Guess who else was nerfed.
you don't have the clerical buff spells that make up for this.
No, you just have those abilities that last several hours, make you huge, and give you really nice bonuses.
Wow, that is the goofiest way of stating "you get water breathing" I've ever read
This is the goofiest way of admitting an error I've ever read. :P
Not quite, unless your GM interprets this passage very differently from mine:
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.Wow, that is the goofiest way of stating "you get water breathing" I've ever read, no wonder I missed it. That's too silly; polar bear and crocodile and dolphin forms work at the bottom of the ocean, but crabs don't. Hah.
Also, water-breathing for a fish is just breathing. Since all the other forms can breathe (without it being specifically mentioned) I assume a fish-form druid can too.Blindsense for a bat is just hearing. Since all the other forms can hear (without it being specifically mentioned) I assume a dire-bat-form druid can too.
Water breathing is an ability notable enough to be specifically called out when a creature has it (assuming it isn't part of their type/subtype package), and 3e-style polymorphing is and has always been "You only get this stuff and nothing more." This is part of why polymorph has always been a rules headache, and I don't think PF quite did a great job of fixing it.
Well I guess then until you are 8th level you are a blind bat since druids dont get blindsense till then and never get blindsight.
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Well I guess then until you are 8th level you are a blind bat since druids dont get blindsense till then and never get blindsight.
Bats have eyes and can see
This is more than a little cheesy, I admit. But if you try to play your druid the way druids used to work where you'd put on your bear face and hang with the melee dudes, it just won't work. You don't have the overwhelming offense (or grappling ability) to make up for your glaring defensive issues, like lower AC and HP and BAB, and you don't have the clerical buff spells that make up for this.
Instead, you either Captain Planet it up, or you use wild shape strictly as emergency melee weapons or a tool to solve problems which can be solved by earth glide, flight, water breathing/swimming, or blindsense.
Interesting side note: did anyone notice that a druid in fish form can drown?
With the changes to amulet of mighty fist, a melee druid can be a real threat. The more attacks, the more elemental/holy damage. With new rules on item creation, the druid can actually make himself pretty awesome and much more versatile than someone who has to put permanent feats into their fighting style. Need to do damage? pouncer form. Need to neutralize a mage? Grappler form. Neet to get the heck out of dodge? earthglide or burrow or fly or swim. Need to teach that halfling a lesson? Turn into a saint bernard and wet on him. Druid is a great option you just have to think about it now instead of looking through monster manual's trying to find the next fleshraker.
The new Amulet of Mighty Fists is still prohibitively expensive; you're looking at tenth-ish level at best to get a +1 fiery Amulet (and probably higher to be honest), so it's definitely a high-level toy.
True, the amulet you described is 20,000 gp, but the amulet does not require a +1 enhancement bonus before adding qualities like flaming. Therefore, you could having flaming natural attacks for 5,000 gp, which is considerably more affordable.
I recently just started playing the druid this year with the 3.5 rules and never got to use the 3.5 wild shape form. Well, now that we have converted to the pfrpg rules and I have the wild shape ability I was wondering: while in wild shape form do your ability stats revert to the animal you took the form of or do you just take on the special abilities of the beast you changed into and retain the normal stats for your pc?
I have been playing it using the ability stats of the new creature you took the form of with the subsequent bonuses listed under the beast shape spell.
Sorry for the thread jack but I believe this is close enough to the topic :)
I recently just started playing the druid this year with the 3.5 rules and never got to use the 3.5 wild shape form. Well, now that we have converted to the pfrpg rules and I have the wild shape ability I was wondering: while in wild shape form do your ability stats revert to the animal you took the form of or do you just take on the special abilities of the beast you changed into and retain the normal stats for your pc?
I have been playing it using the ability stats of the new creature you took the form of with the subsequent bonuses listed under the beast shape spell.
Sorry for the thread jack but I believe this is close enough to the topic :)
Nope, you keep your stats, and add the listed bonuses. That's why most are calling it a nerf. No more STR 8 druid getting STR 20+ from becoming a bear or whatever.
Something that a lot of folks seem to be overlooking is that with the new Wildshape, much of your magical equipment will remain function, unlike in 3.5 Attribute boosters, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, cloaks of resistance, they all continue to function. No more need for a pile of Wilding Clasps.
With the changes to amulet of mighty fist, a melee druid can be a real threat. The more attacks, the more elemental/holy damage. With new rules on item creation, the druid can actually make himself pretty awesome and much more versatile than someone who has to put permanent feats into their fighting style. Need to do damage? pouncer form. Need to neutralize a mage? Grappler form. Neet to get the heck out of dodge? earthglide or burrow or fly or swim. Need to teach that halfling a lesson? Turn into a saint bernard and wet on him. Druid is a great option you just have to think about it now instead of looking through monster manual's trying to find the next fleshraker.The new Amulet of Mighty Fists is still prohibitively expensive; you're looking at tenth-ish level at best to get a +1 fiery Amulet (and probably higher to be honest), so it's definitely a high-level toy. At best, you'll have three attacks benefiting from the amulet without giant squid form. Contrast this with a melee class who is using a +1 fiery shocking greatsword all the time (and has an extra +1 or +2 on that greatsword from Greater Magic Weapon, something the druid can't do without expending quite a few spells and sometimes far too many actions, depending) and has the melee feats and defenses to back it up.
But dumpster diving isn't dead just because the baseline druid is weaker. Since you're still inheriting special abilities and natural attacks from forms, you still have a great disparity in effectiveness between good forms and bad forms, and the good forms are still super goofy. (I'm gonna go with MM3.5 versions of stuff, since I don't have Bestiary.) For example, the best huge animal shape by far is a giant squid, because PF polymorph doesn't take the ability to breath air away and giant squids have huge reach and some of the best natural attacks of any animal. Assuming your GM puts the kibosh on that because it's silly, dire tiger and dire bear are massively better than anything else at level 6, then at...
That is simply not true. A 5th level druid can easily make his own amulet for half price, cast greater magic fang on himself, and be a veritable fighting force. Where are youy getting that druids can only get 3 attacks without being a giant squid? How many attacks to level 5 fighters get with a greatsword? Also, the +1 fiery shocking greatsword can be disarmed, so that is another reason the druid is a great fighter if you build it to be. Not to mention the fact that you can take shapes beyond large and medium animals before the end of an AP now. Druids are a great class, they just have to plan ahead more than they used to.
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I play a Druid that's heading for Shifter in order to emphasise wild shape to the expense of most other abilities.
However, my group is switching to Pathfinder and Druids as wild shape combat monsters look rather depressing now.
I'm stuck. Without going into splatbooks, is there any way in Pathfinder to make a shifting-focused Druid? It looks like Sorcerers and Wizards do vastly better at turning into combat monsters and I'd like to find a way for my character to remain a Druid and not suck.
Well then, I have bad news for you...
Druids in 3.x ruled the battlefields, transforming into lethal monsters of destruction almost as fearsome as my own awsome armored self.
Then Pathfinder came along and said, quite rightly so (rightly, because we tarrasques should have no contenders for our battlefield supremacy), that druids need to be reigned-in, held in check, toned down. "Nerfed" if you will.
And, in the true spirit of all great nerfings that have come before, Pathfinder showed no restraint, toppling the once proud druidzillas into a mere humbled remnant of their former glory, puny humans in foam-rubber monster suits yelling a timid "Roar! Please fear my puny monsterish charade!"
So now your only hope is to revise your druid from the ground up, build him with vast STR, DEX, and CON because now you'll need it. Sacrifice your INT and CHA even if it means the animals of the woods despise you and you lack the skills to make it otherwise, for you dare not spread your versatility so thin. At least with impressive phiscal ability scores, you will be a strong man in a foam-rubber monster suit...
All you need is STR actually... forget DEX and CON and take Heavy Armor Proficiency instead. At about level 7 or 8 you can buy a Dragonhide Plate armor with the wild enchantment and your AC problems will be over (and consequently your hit point problem).
So max your STR, buy a WIS of about 15, and you'll be good to go.
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Also, here's a little note to the OP:
Some people on these boards suffer from "overanalyzitis" and perhaps also from "lackofactualgamingitis". To say that druids have been nerfed somewhat is one thing, but to say that they are not a viable option on the battlefield indicate a clear lack of gaming experience. For instance I have a 10th-level druid who commonly shifts into triceratops form with the trample ability (you just walk on foes and they take 2d12 +(1.5 x STR) = 2d12 + 10 (in my case); Ref save DC 21 for 1/2 dmg.) That's everyround I don't find something more deadly to do either via spell... and that damage is usually applied to all enemies on the map, as I can walk through friendly squares and leave them unaffected... There's also not much foes can do when my druid decides to go large air elemental whirlwind on them... druids are kickass.
I'm working on a level 12 half-orc druid to show a couple of my fellow gamers that shifting druids are not completely useless. He's got a lot of battlefield control spells and a lot of buffs, along with the Plant domain instead of an animal companion.
I haven't bought equipment for him yet, but so far, he looks pretty lethal.
For the record, stats are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, assigned as desired, then roll 3d6 straight down the line and take the better result.
Str 18 (15 + 2 race + 1 stat adjust)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16 (14 + 2 stat adjust)
Cha 8
All his favored class bonus goes into HP, and he's got Toughness, so he has 106 HP. That only goes up with wild shape. I'll invest in wild dragonhide armor to keep his AC up; CMD is decent since I gave him Defensive Combat Training.
If y'all are interested, I'll post more as time permits.
All you need is STR actually... forget DEX and CON and take Heavy Armor Proficiency instead. At about level 7 or 8 you can buy a Dragonhide Plate armor with the wild enchantment and your AC problems will be over (and consequently your hit point problem).Dude, that is seriously 19300 gold on one item. What GM allows that silliness at level 7? A lot of what I've been saying goes away a bit if you can do that, but more practically most characters can't do anything like that until about level 11-12.
Well, I guess a 7th level character could afford it, if he never spent any treasure on much of anything else. Assuming all of his wealth was spendable - who knows, he might have found a +2 scimitar, or a ring of protection, or a hundred other "keeper" items that he won't want to part with, in which case, he might only have a few thousand coins.
Even at 9th level he can barely afford it if half of his accumulated treasure was coin, or at least was stuff he is willing to sell and able to sell at full price.
And all that assumes there is a local Magic-Mart with a suit of +1 Wild Dragonhide Plate sitting on the shelf, ready to buy. Or a 12th level armorsmith standing around town looking for work, ready to whip this up in 20 days or so, assuming he happens to have a pile of actual dragonhide sitting around his smithy - unless of course the player will bring the dragonhide (which he may in fact have, since the 3.5 MM lists a Juvenile Green Dragon - druids like green armor, right? - as only CR 8, and the Pathfinder rules say this dragon can produce enough dragonhide for one medium suit of armor).
Still, the cost, or the difficulty of finding someone to make it, could be prohibitively difficult in many campaigns. I'm not even talking about low-magic campaigns. I'm basically talking about campaigns that follow the RAW to the letter about what treasure and magic the plyers have but that don't just have Magic-Marts on every corner of every town.
In such a campaign, the druid is almost certainly at the DM's mercy, and I'm afraid few experienced DMs would casually give this armor away, especially if it seems that the entire druid "build" seems to be "built" around eventually procuring this armor.
unless of course the player will bring the dragonhide (which he may in fact have, since the 3.5 MM lists a Juvenile Green Dragon - druids like green armor, right?Why am I suddenly picturing a druidic Cruella de Ville leading the level 12 party as they chase this hapless green dragon, shouting all the time to aim for the eyes?
Because spotted, riding dog hide armor only gets you so far.
Also, here's a little note to the OP:
Some people on these boards suffer from "overanalyzitis" and perhaps also from "lackofactualgamingitis". To say that druids have been nerfed somewhat is one thing, but to say that they are not a viable option on the battlefield indicate a clear lack of gaming experience. For instance I have a 10th-level druid who commonly shifts into triceratops form with the trample ability (you just walk on foes and they take 2d12 +(1.5 x STR) = 2d12 + 10 (in my case); Ref save DC 21 for 1/2 dmg.) That's everyround I don't find something more deadly to do either via spell... and that damage is usually applied to all enemies on the map, as I can walk through friendly squares and leave them unaffected... There's also not much foes can do when my druid decides to go large air elemental whirlwind on them... druids are kickass.
Not too impressed.
In 5 minutes, with only selecting about 8 feats (I am sure if I agonized as long over feats as you did about wildshape forms, I would find a few extra tricks), I created a level 10 fighter who is +20/+15 who hits for 1d12+1d6 electrical + 25. An average of 35 points per hit. He has a critical threat range of 17-20 and +4 on critical confirmations. He has Great Cleave so he can attack multiple targets quite often, even after moving - maybe even as often as you can trample multiple targets.
I'll take 35 points to every target in reach over 23 (or save for half) any day, especially since you cannot critical that trample (about 1 in 5 attacks from my fighter will do around 67 points of damage).
And the fighter moves faster than a heavily armored druid, has more HP and a better AC. And he can walk through a normal sized door, fight in a 5'-wide corridor, and switch to a Long Composite bow whenever he needs to kill things at range.
And I'm not even done picking his feats or buying his gear.
Yeah, yeah, my fighter doesn't have spells, but I think this thread was a bit more about wildshaping and melee than it was about spellcasting, and even so, this fighter can do everything I described a thousand times a day if he wants because he isn't relying on any non-renewing daily resource to power any of his melee ability.
So no, your trample ability, while quite interesting, doesn't really put you in a "front-line" capacity.
And on a separate note, it vexes me greatly that, per RAW, large trampling creatures can simply tromp through their allies spaces with no penalty. Me, as a DM, I think the rule allowing you to move through an ally's space assumed that neither you nor your ally fill the entire space. I know that I, in real life, will not hold my ground and let a friendly elephant stomp through the space in which I'm standing. Historically speaking, military cavalry charges always went around their footmen, never through them, because going through them would guarantee a frightening number of casualties (and that's only horse-sized; a triceratops is much bigger than any horse). Seems to me, this rule is badly designed (e.g. it's pure "cheese") and desperately in need of houseruling - but you're right, per RAW, you certainly can get away with it.
And on a separate note, it vexes me greatly that, per RAW, large trampling creatures can simply tromp through their allies spaces with no penalty. Me, as a DM, I think the rule allowing you to move through an ally's space assumed that neither you nor your ally fill the entire space. ..snip..Seems to me, this rule is badly designed (e.g. it's pure "cheese") and desperately in need of houseruling - but you're right, per RAW, you certainly can get away with it.
I do not have a Bestiary yet, but the 3.5 MM (pg. 316)reads as follows...
"The creature merely has to move over the opponents in its path; ANY CREATURE whose space is completely covered by the trampling creature's space IS subject to the trampling attack."
EDIT: It is a 'full-round action', so even moving through allies to get to the opponents is considered part of the trample action. Much like you wouldn't be able to charge(full-round action also) through allies, you cannot trample through them without literally trampling them.
And on a separate note, it vexes me greatly that, per RAW, large trampling creatures can simply tromp through their allies spaces with no penalty. Me, as a DM, I think the rule allowing you to move through an ally's space assumed that neither you nor your ally fill the entire space. ..snip..Seems to me, this rule is badly designed (e.g. it's pure "cheese") and desperately in need of houseruling - but you're right, per RAW, you certainly can get away with it.I do not have a Bestiary yet, but the 3.5 MM (pg. 316)reads as follows...
"The creature merely has to move over the opponents in its path; ANY CREATURE whose space is completely covered by the trampling creature's space IS subject to the trampling attack."
EDIT: It is a 'full-round action', so even moving through allies to get to the opponents is considered part of the trample action. Much like you wouldn't be able to charge(full-round action also) through allies, you cannot trample through them without literally trampling them.
Yeah, I thought I had encountered that rule somewhere (it's certainly how I've always played it), but I don't have the Bestiary and didn't see anything in the Core Rules that said as much. But it does make a lot of sense.
I hope we don't get PDK in trouble here - he'll be the one vexed, perhaps even sorely so, if his DM reads this and stops letting him trample over his allies safely.
I hope we don't get PDK in trouble here - he'll be the one vexed, perhaps even sorely so, if his DM reads this and stops letting him trample over his allies safely.
Meh, an honest player would show his DM and apologize for not knowing how his abilities properly function. On the same note, the DM is equally at fault for not knowing a rule that his player is using(likely ALOT cuz its pretty cool). At our table the past would be shrugged off as an 'oops' and the rule would be played as written from then on.
Ah, fire giant, there we go. You sweep through the fire giant's space, and can't hardly fail to suck him up. (Seriously, he needs to roll a 20 on one of two rolls to avoid it.) He doesn't mind; in fact, he'll happily let you pick him up, because on his turn, he'll attack you. Your AC is effectively 22. He will power attack and hit you on a 5+ for 35 damage, a 10+ for 35 damage, and a 15+ for 35 damage. So he kills you in two rounds on average.
I always thought the damage was incidental. The fact that you could pick them up, move them and drop them wherever you wanted was the big advantage to whirlwind. So sure, the fire giant isn't taking a lot of damage but in the mean time you have picked him up and dropped him off a cliff. Assuming he survives you have just removed him from the current combat.
There aren't always cliffs handy but it is always nice to be able to rearrange where the enemy is on the battlefield. And you don't even have to be in within 50' of him when you are done. You can whirlwind him, do the trivial damage, drop him where he won't be able to attack anyone the next round (including you). Lather rinse repeat. You can essentially blow the giant wherever you want and he would never get an attack in on you.