If you had a heavy shield in one hand and your other hand was empty then you cast the scroll. It only requires one hand to use a scroll.
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The heavy shield's description says you can't use that hand for anything else. The description of scrolls seems to imply that Armor Check Penalties don't apply for divine scrolls, but would you need both hands to read it?
ACP has nothing to do with having a free hand or not.
If you have one hand with a Heavy Shield and another with anything in it, you can't cast a scroll. For instance, if you were holding a longsword you would need to drop the longsword, draw the scroll (as a full round action or move action if pulling out of a HHH) and then cast the scroll, then pick up your sword (provoking AoO)
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Yeah, you need to be able to actually read the scroll to use it. That's not to say it needs to be in hand of course, it could be on a table all laid out, or on the floor and your prone over it! :D
Someone else could even hold it up for you to read. Unless I'm totally wrong...let's look...
Here we go. The user must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Bam, your golden if you've deciphered it as there isn't anything in the rules that says you have to be holding the scroll. Well that I found in a casual glance through the scrolls section. :)
The heavy shield's description says you can't use that hand for anything else. The description of scrolls seems to imply that Armor Check Penalties don't apply for divine scrolls, but would you need both hands to read it?
Reading a scroll only requires 1 free hand.
If you have an easygoing GM he may allow you to nail one scroll to the back of your heavy shield, for easy access, which would allow you to read that one scroll without the free hand.
Of course this is not RAW, but it makes sense to many players ;)
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The heavy shield's description says you can't use that hand for anything else. The description of scrolls seems to imply that Armor Check Penalties don't apply for divine scrolls, but would you need both hands to read it?Reading a scroll only requires 1 free hand.
If you have an easygoing GM he may allow you to nail one scroll to the back of your heavy shield, for easy access, which would allow you to read that one scroll without the free hand.
Of course this is not RAW, but it makes sense to many players ;)
sorta like the caster's shield... sorta.
heh, have a scroll tacked to the back of your armor so the rogue or cleric behind you can cast that healing spell on you as you hold the line.
If the scroll requires somatic components, you're going to need both hands free. One hand to hold the scroll, the second to make the gestures. A hand that is holding something cannot be used for somatic components of spells unless you have a feat or class ability that says otherwise (there are some classes and a feat that can gesture the somatic components with weapons).
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Only if the spell on the scroll requires somatic components of course.
That could be one interpretation of RAW, taking the "1 hand free" to be shorthand for "because of somatic."
I interpret the "1 hand free" as "to use the scroll."
Really, fringe interpretations like this really come down to "Ask your DM."
I'm not actually seeing this 1 hand for use thing anywhere in the Scrolls section under activation in the Magic Items section. Are you looking at it someplace else?
Their is nothing about needing one hand free to use a scroll that is listed in the activation section of the scrolls of the PRD. Unless its in some new section its worded exactly like it was in 3.5. I said you needed the one hand to hold the scroll, but as mentioned above their is a caster's shield that has a scroll on the back of it. This would allow one to cast from the scroll while both hands are full. Or at least going strictly as written you could.
That link doesn't work me so I assume you are referring to divine scrolls. But what about arcane scrolls. Page 490 of the PFRPG has a line that reads, "Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance." So for scrolls requiring the somatic component how would an arcane caster read the scroll and gesture with the same hand? Seems to me it would make reading it impossible.
That link doesn't work me so I assume you are referring to divine scrolls. But what about arcane scrolls. Page 490 of the PFRPG has a line that reads, "Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance." So for scrolls requiring the somatic component how would an arcane caster read the scroll and gesture with the same hand? Seems to me it would make reading it impossible.
You only need one hand for somatic components. And that's not something that's unique to arcane casters, by the way. Like I said, a cleric won't be able to cast from a scroll while wielding a heavy shield if the spell on the scroll requires somatic components.
EDIT: Neither can a cleric cast a prepared spell with somatic components if wielding both a weapon and a heavy shield, something I've found a lot of DMs either don't realize or don't enforce.
I'm not the end-all-be-all for the Pathfinder RPG rules. Those rules are shepherded by Jason Bulmahn and others on the editorial staff. Please do not take my interpretation of rules questions asked in the PFS threads to apply to the game as a whole. Until you hear Jason or anyone else from the editorial staff weigh in on the matter, my answers apply to PFS only.
Please do not re-raise these questions on the PFS boards just to come back over to the PRPG boards and declared what my "ruling" was. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Zurai, I am leaning toward agreeing with you. I think the key to the argument is whether or not one must still make gestures when casting from a scroll. The line I quoted refers only to arcane spell failure, so that would seem to indicate that arcane casters must still gesture when casting from a scroll. This is why I distinguished between divine and arcane. I agree with your logic, one hand to hold the scroll, and one hand to gesture. But do divine scrolls and arcane scrolls operate the same with respect to activation. Specifically, since clerics do not have to worry about arcane spell failure does that line I referenced apply to their scrolls?
But do divine scrolls and arcane scrolls operate the same with respect to activation. Specifically, since clerics do not have to worry about arcane spell failure does that line I referenced apply to their scrolls?
The rules do not treat arcane scrolls, divine scrolls, or untyped scrolls differently from each other. A scroll is a scroll is a scroll. All the type does is determine who can cast from it without needing to make a skill check.
Lemme put it this way -- any character in the game, including the dumb-as-rocks Fighter, can cast a spell from an arcane scroll. They need to make a Use Magic Device check to do so (and a relatively hefty one, IIRC), but they can do it. However, only arcane casters have arcane spell failure chance. A cleric using Use Magic Device to cast a fireball from an arcane scroll wouldn't suffer arcane spell failure for casting in a breastplate. Similarly, a wizard casting a cure light wounds from a divine scroll would suffer Arcane Spell Failure if he was wearing armor.
Put another way, arcane spell failure is a function of the character class, not the spell. Note that nowhere in the Magic chapter under Arcane magic is arcane spell failure mentioned.
Yeah, how could the word "arcane" in that sentence possibly confuse anyone? Just plain ole crazy that someone could mix up these crystal clear rules. Yup.
So an arcane caster uses a scroll but faces possible "arcane" failure chance, but a cleric (or fighter for that matter) can use the same scroll but does not face the failure chance. Somehow the scroll knows the difference. Yeah, that makes sense. I get it now! Oh and the word "arcane" is not supposed to imply that it affects arcane casters and not divine. How crazy of me to go there!
Note to self, just follow another poster's advice and make your own home rules that your particular group can accept.
Yeah, how could the word "arcane" in that sentence possibly confuse anyone? Just plain ole crazy that someone could mix up these crystal clear rules. Yup.
There are classes that do not use arcane magic that suffer from arcane spell failure.
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Put another way, arcane spell failure is a function of the character class, not the spell. Note that nowhere in the Magic chapter under Arcane magic is arcane spell failure mentioned.
While I'll accept that you can interpret it that way, the rules don't prove that is the correct interpretation of the RAW.
I read the RAW to say that if you cast arcane spells, have an arcane spell failure, then you take that whenever that class casts an arcane spell (be it from a scroll or spell slots) and only if it is an arcane spell.
Arcane Spell Failure Chance: Armor interferes with the gestures that a spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they're wearing armor. Bards can wear light armor and use shields without incurring any arcane spell failure chance for their bard spells.
Casting an Arcane Spell in Armor: A character who casts an arcane spell while wearing armor must usually make an arcane spell failure check. The number in the Arcane Spell Failure Chance column on Table: Armor and Shields is the percentage chance that the spell fails and is ruined. If the spell lacks a somatic component, however, it can be cast with no chance of arcane spell failure.
The two sentences I've italicized above read to me as though anyone casting an arcane spell with somatic components potentially suffers from a chance of spell failure. The only spot that even suggests that only arcane classes need worry about ASF is the sentence starting with "Arcane spellcasters." However that phrase is just as easily read to mean "those who cast arcane spells", and that's what the rest of the section refers to.
So what it boils down to is, be you Wizard, Cleric, Rogue or Fighter, if you cast an Arcane spell, you have to worry about your armor screwing it up. And since casting a spell from a scroll is just like casting it from preparation, ASF applies.
Conversely, if it's a divine scroll then you're golden. Apparently the gods are a little more forgiving about how good your shadow puppets look.
@Zappo:
First, what a lousy place to put the only mention of that in the entire rulebook.
Second, the problem with using that to set a baseline for the system is that it creates a loophole. As I said, there are non-arcane-caster classes that have Arcane Spell Failure. If the rules state that only Arcane Spells suffer ASF, then scrolls those classes create do not have ASF, even when said classes then cast from them.
@Zappo:
First, what a lousy place to put the only mention of that in the entire rulebook.
Second, the problem with using that to set a baseline for the system is that it creates a loophole. As I said, there are non-arcane-caster classes that have Arcane Spell Failure. If the rules state that only Arcane Spells suffer ASF, then scrolls those classes create do not have ASF, even when said classes then cast from them.
Anything that's not core has to define it's own rules. That's the idea for an exceptions based ruleset. None of the core non-arcane classes have ASF, so I don't see the problem.
Anything that's not core has to define it's own rules. That's the idea for an exceptions based ruleset. None of the core non-arcane classes have ASF, so I don't see the problem.@Zappo:
First, what a lousy place to put the only mention of that in the entire rulebook.
Second, the problem with using that to set a baseline for the system is that it creates a loophole. As I said, there are non-arcane-caster classes that have Arcane Spell Failure. If the rules state that only Arcane Spells suffer ASF, then scrolls those classes create do not have ASF, even when said classes then cast from them.
Bah, too late to edit my post. What I should have said, to sound just a little less confrontational, was:
None of the core non-arcane classes have ASF, so I don't see the problem with the core rules as presented.
And while I agree that this should have been mentioned in the Magic section, it makes perfect sense for me to put the primary reference in the Armor section. After all, the whole reason for ASF is Armor. No armor, no ASF.
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@Zappo:
First, what a lousy place to put the only mention of that in the entire rulebook.
Second, the problem with using that to set a baseline for the system is that it creates a loophole. As I said, there are non-arcane-caster classes that have Arcane Spell Failure. If the rules state that only Arcane Spells suffer ASF, then scrolls those classes create do not have ASF, even when said classes then cast from them.
Okay, just checking the rules here...
Bard= Arcane
Cleric- Divine and no ASF noted
Druid- Divine and no ASF noted
Paladin- Divine and no ASF noted
Ranger- Divine and no ASF noted
Sorcerer= Arcane
Wizard= Arcane
I'm not finding any classes at all that are non arcane casters that use Arcane Spell Failure. Am I missing something?
If it is from an older book, a 3rd party book or whatever, realize the rules may have changed and that OLD class would need to be updated.
The rules havn't changed. You could have figured that out with less time than it took to be rude and condescending.
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If the rules state that only Arcane Spells suffer ASF, then scrolls those classes create do not have ASF, even when said classes then cast from them.
Again, I don't agree with this leap.
I've got no problem with you reading the rules to say this, while I don't see what text leads you to believe this.
I think the rules also suggest the class is the gatekeeper to ASF. Meaning this "suffer no ASF" class doesn't have ASF when they cast arcane spells on their list. But other classes casting a scroll created by them would suffer ASF when they cast it (if it was on their class spell list.)
The question of a Fighter using UMD to cast the scroll is less clear to me. I still would consider the "no ASF" a class feature with no listed Level Adjustment, and as such can not be "put" into the Scroll (so the scroll would be identical to a scroll created by a Wizard.)
OK, I had a ton of arguments for the whole "No hand waving", but page 458 "Spell Completion" threw me into the "If it has Somatic Components for the type of spell and the spell," it requires a free hand.
Scrolls do require Somatic components if the original spell for the caster type has Somatic components ("Spell Completion" on p 458). Divine or Arcane.
Arcane spell failure is only for Arcane spells (p 39, lack of reference in "Weapon and Armor Proficiency", p 78 specific stating in same section for Wizard, p 150 "Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they're wearing armor." and the "Casting an Arcane Spell in Armor" subsection).
Divine Spells on scrolls follow the same rules fore deciphering and writing (p 221 and reference to 218).
Everything I've read says that there's Arcane Spell Failure for a scroll of an "arcane" type spell (p 490, bullet 1) as you need to be able to cast Divine spells to cast a Divine scroll.
No change from 3.5, if I remember correctly.
All things considered, the caster must have the scroll within range to read it. So, if it's "tacked to the back of a Rogue" or laying on a table, or even in the hand of a shield arm (raised high in the air and negating the shield bonus while taking the AoO from the casting, and taking a move action to re-adjust your shield), anything is fair game.
However, it's still a move action to retrieve the scroll. I'd say a free action to "unroll" it by letting go of the bottom drop or part of the Move action.
IMHO of course ; )
[Edit: Updated the "Everything I've read says " paragraph for clarity]
I think the rules also suggest the class is the gatekeeper to ASF. Meaning this "suffer no ASF" class doesn't have ASF when they cast arcane spells on their list. But other classes casting a scroll created by them would suffer ASF when they cast it (if it was on their class spell list.)The question of a Fighter using UMD to cast the scroll is less clear to me. I still would consider the "no ASF" a class feature with no listed Level Adjustment, and as such can not be "put" into the Scroll (so the scroll would be identical to a scroll created by a Wizard.)
I kind of agree with this. I think that the key is the type of spell on the scroll. "Activiating the Spell" (p 490) states "If the user meets all the requirements noted above ...". The first being "The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine)." Therefore, if it's an Arcane scroll, yes. If it's Divine, no.
Of course, the Use Magic Device can be used to substitute for casting Class.
If the rules state that only Arcane Spells suffer ASF, then scrolls those classes create do not have ASF, even when said classes then cast from them.Again, I don't agree with this leap.
Just to clarify -- I'm talking about Warlocks and Artificers. Scrolls they create are neither arcane nor divine, as they are neither arcane nor divine casters. If ASF depends both on class and on type of spell, then warlock and artificer-created scrolls don't have ASF, even for warlocks and artificers (I honestly can't recall if Artificers have ASF, but Warlocks do).
Oh, and for the record, I do agree now that the RAW says ASF only applies to arcane spells. I just don't like the inconsistencies and "but whys" that creates.
I think the rules also suggest the class is the gatekeeper to ASF. Meaning this "suffer no ASF" class doesn't have ASF when they cast arcane spells on their list. But other classes casting a scroll created by them would suffer ASF when they cast it (if it was on their class spell list.)The question of a Fighter using UMD to cast the scroll is less clear to me. I still would consider the "no ASF" a class feature with no listed Level Adjustment, and as such can not be "put" into the Scroll (so the scroll would be identical to a scroll created by a Wizard.)
I kind of agree with this. I think that the key is the type of spell on the scroll. "Activiating the Spell" (p 490) states "If the user meets all the requirements noted above ...". The first being "The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine)." Therefore, if it's an Arcane scroll, yes. If it's Divine, no.
Of course, the Use Magic Device can be used to substitute for casting Class.
When I first read what Zurai wrote I thought "Zurai is so wrong" but perhaps he isn't.
Page 109"Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you
must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use
Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a
particular spell on your class spell list."
It doesn't say you Emulate a Class Feature. Emulate a Class Feature is something else.
If a Bard try to cast a fireball he will cast it as if he had it on his list. Right? It would be cast as a bard spell.
Page 35.
A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light
armor and use a shield without incurring the normal
arcane spell failure chance
So reading the RAW I say Zurai might be correct. UMD + Sroll cast by a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger = No ASF.
As for fighter. They don't cast spells. Should they be treated as a wizard/sorcerer or as Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger? I don't know.
Page 35.
A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light
armor and use a shield without incurring the normal
arcane spell failure chanceSo reading the RAW I say Zurai might be correct. UMD + Sroll cast by a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger = No ASF.
Divine casters would have to "Emulate a Class Feature" (Spells under the Wizard) for the Arcane spell, where the Bard would have to "Use a Scroll" (for, as an example, Fireball). I will admit that the specific class feature ("Spells") doesn't say that this is what allows Wizards to cast.
Here's a nice nugget, p 35 "A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes." With this in mind and p 150, I'd say any Arcane Spell with a Somatic component has ASF.
Of course, it should have a clarification from The Powers That Be.
As for fighter. They don't cast spells. Should they be treated as a wizard/sorcerer or as Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger? I don't know.
Regarding the Fighter, he'd have to simulate "Class Feature", "Use a Scroll", and possibly "Emulate an Ability Score."
Page 35.
A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light
armor and use a shield without incurring the normal
arcane spell failure chanceSo reading the RAW I say Zurai might be correct. UMD + Sroll cast by a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger = No ASF.
Divine casters would have to "Emulate a Class Feature" (Spells under the Wizard) for the Arcane spell, where the Bard would have to "Use a Scroll" (for, as an example, Fireball). I will admit that the specific class feature ("Spells") doesn't say that this is what allows Wizards to cast.
Here's a nice nugget, p 35 "A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes." With this in mind and p 150, I'd say any Arcane Spell with a Somatic component has ASF.
Of course, it should have a clarification from The Powers That Be.
Regarding the Fighter, he'd have to simulate "Class Feature", "Use a Scroll", and possibly "Emulate an Ability Score."
As for fighter. They don't cast spells. Should they be treated as a wizard/sorcerer or as Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger? I don't know.
Read my post again.
I'm not talking about a bard/wizard casting wizard spells i armor.I'm talkning of UMD.
Divine casters would not have to "Emulate a Class Feature". A lawful Good bard with UMD could Emulate a Class Feature and use Holy Avenger.
The text reads:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you
must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use
Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a
particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal
to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to
cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a
scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the
appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score
in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a
separate Use Magic Device check.
This use of the skill also applies to other spell completionmagic items.
The text talks about "emulate the ability score", there is no talk about Emulate a Class Feature.
Same goes for Use a Wand. Only one check, not two.
UMD does not alow you to cast a wizard scroll as a wizard. It alow you to cast it as if you had it on spell your list. Probably as well meaning "as if you had a spell list".
One could argue that it also means you cast it as you have an arcane spell list even if you are a divin caster, but the text doesn't say so.
Although I would probably say you cast it as if you had a Wizard/sorcerer spell list.
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I'm talking about Warlocks and Artificers. Scrolls they create are neither arcane nor divine
Yes, if they make typeless scrolls then they would require UME to use.
Page 109 "Use a Scroll: ... as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list."
UMD + Sroll cast by a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger = No ASF.
As for fighter. They don't cast spells.
Hmm, interesting. So it all spins on what the DM interprets is happening:
1) The scrolls is cast as if the PC had both spell casting and the spell on their spell list.
2) The scroll is actually cast as if you had the required features to activate the scroll.
I'm to the point where I'm not sure which way is the "intended" way?