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First of all, the human would only lose any physical anility scores of his former race, ie the +2 to a stat, if its physical. He would not lose the bonus feat or rank.
He would then gain the darkvision, stench aura, natural attack and the natural armor. He will not get the 2d8 hp, becouse the race dosnt specify these as racial HD. Much like the generic drow dosnt have racial hit dice either. I would rule he dosnt recieve the stealth skill bonus, simply becouse its not an ability associated with the form, but a training troglodytes recieve during childhood. (a transfer to half ork would not grant u skill in axes, as it is not an ability associated with the form either).
If troglodytes actually recieves a -2 dex and a +4 racial con, then the player would also recieve these. But from the description of the troglodyte in the bestiary, it dosnt specify what stats if any, they get. I would therefore rule you dont get any stat increases.
If you actually managed to get racial HD, though i dont know how, you will not count as a higher level or any different for that matter. Simply becouse pathfinder removed any resemblance to the old CR adjustment from the previous 3.5, and you would therefore count as being the same level as you were before.
The monsters to PC's section of the bestiary, is rather a guideline how to actually run a monster campaign with characters of same skill level, balancing it out with class levels, it is not a core rule or a CR adjustment. So unless you run a monster campaign, my take is the rules there has nothing to do with this scenario.
Creative Director
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Reincarnate is a pretty strange and complex spell. It's certainly one of those that every GM should look at and decided exactly how he wants to run things in his game (awaken and simulacrum and miracle and wish are similar in this regard).
The way I handle reincarnation effects in adventures and sourcebooks is to follow the guidelines as guidenlines, not rules. If a human gets reincarnated as a troglodyte, they'd retain any mental human abilities, but would lose physical ones. They'd gain troglodyte physical abilities, but lose mental ones.
For this case, it's actaully pretty clear-cut.
The human, upone being reincarnated, would back out his +2 bonus to an ability score if it had been applied to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution; if that bonus had been applied to Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, he would not lose it. He gains the Trog's mods as listed, along with all of the troglodyte's attacks, stench, darkvision, armor, and stealth bonus for being able to shift his coloration.
He'd keep his bonus feat and extra skill ranks gained from being human since those are mental, not physical.
He'd also gain 2d8 racial Hit Dice, which means his base attack bonus, saves, and skill ranks go up. He also would gain a new feat, and depending on if that extra 2d8 HD bumped him up enough enough, a +1 bonus to an ability score of his choosing.
As for what his CR would be... if he's a player, that doesn't matter at all. CR isn't for player characters. He's now more powerful than the other characters in the party, of course, and that presents some challenges to the GM... but not so much if the other players aren't jealous and are cool about things. The GM, of course, can do what he needs to do to make the PC's new life as a troglodyte relatively rough and miserable, of course, since that kind of change would wreak havock on family and relationships and even simple trips to the grocery store.
If this is an NPC, once you rebuild all the stats, just sit down and look at it as a whole. Chances are good that the modifications to its attacks, AC, and other features warrant a +1 or maybe even a +2 bonus to CR, depending on how the final stat block looks compared to Table 1–1 in the Bestiary and monsters of similar CR scores.
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Reincarnate is a pretty strange and complex spell. It's certainly one of those that every GM should look at and decided exactly how he wants to run things in his game (awaken and simulacrum and miracle and wish are similar in this regard).
The way I handle reincarnation effects in adventures and sourcebooks is to follow the guidelines as guidenlines, not rules. If a human gets reincarnated as a troglodyte, they'd retain any mental human abilities, but would lose physical ones. They'd gain troglodyte physical abilities, but lose mental ones.
For this case, it's actaully pretty clear-cut.
The human, upone being reincarnated, would back out his +2 bonus to an ability score if it had been applied to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution; if that bonus had been applied to Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, he would not lose it. He gains the Trog's mods as listed, along with all of the troglodyte's attacks, stench, darkvision, armor, and stealth bonus for being able to shift his coloration.
He'd keep his bonus feat and extra skill ranks gained from being human since those are mental, not physical.
He'd also gain 2d8 racial Hit Dice, which means his base attack bonus, saves, and skill ranks go up. He also would gain a new feat, and depending on if that extra 2d8 HD bumped him up enough enough, a +1 bonus to an ability score of his choosing.
As for what his CR would be... if he's a player, that doesn't matter at all. CR isn't for player characters. He's now more powerful than the other characters in the party, of course, and that presents some challenges to the GM... but not so much if the other players aren't jealous and are cool about things. The GM, of course, can do what he needs to do to make the PC's new life as a troglodyte relatively rough and miserable, of course, since that kind of change would wreak havock on family and relationships and even simple trips to the grocery store.
If this is an NPC, once you rebuild all the stats, just sit down and look at it as a whole. Chances are good that...
Does the reincarnated creature always get the racial hit dice?
Spoilering so as not to ruin an AP(SS)...
Is this the norm or an exception? It makes a huge differance when something gets a lot of racial hit dice like the spoilerred example.
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Creative Director
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Does the reincarnated creature always get the racial hit dice?
Spoilering so as not to ruin an AP(SS)...Is this the norm or an exception? It makes a huge differance when something gets a lot of racial hit dice like the spoilerred example.
Depends on what the GM or the adventure writer wants to accomplish. The specific example you cite uses a different reincarnation effect than that granted by the spell. Also, giving that guy racial HD would have made us nerf his class level too much in order to not "price him out" of the adventure in the first place.
So... no. Retaining racial HD is not always the way to go.
In fact, not allowing racial HD to carry over is a GREAT way to keep the power level in line for when this happens to PCs.
Personally I kind of prefer NOT to retain the racial HD for most reincarnated monsters. There's something coming up in the "Rival Guide" that takes this route as well, just like how we handled the monster from the example above.
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Creative Director
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And again... your GM needs to make the call on how this affects party balance. There simply is no magic equation you can apply to make things work all nice and neat—monster races, even when they're gained as a result of reincarnate, need to be examined and ruled on by the GM since no two GMs and no two games will have the same requirements. And even if they did... no two monsters have the same stats—they're built as monsters, not PC options, after all.
IF he gets reincarnated as something that would have a higher CR than the party character level, I'd just follow the rules on page 313 of the bestiary. Remember to adjust for the party level. In other words, if the party is level 5, and he ends up with a +2 CR adjust, treat him as a level 6 (5 class levels & 1 level of CR adjust). So he'll be one level ahead of the rest of the party for awhile.
So if the party is high enough level, being reincarnated as a creature with hit dice would not only give me extra hit dice, but might actually get me an extra class level or two on top of that (thanks to the Beastiary monster/player catch up rules)?
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Creative Director
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So if the party is high enough level, being reincarnated as a creature with hit dice would not only give me extra hit dice, but might actually get me an extra class level or two on top of that (thanks to the Beastiary monster/player catch up rules)?
Nope. Being reincarnated never gives you extra class levels.
Racial HD are not class levels.
James, i must admit i pretty much use your word as law on my table, but i still disagree with you on this subject.
How do you know that a troglodyte has 2d8 racial HD? i know the generated one in the bestiary has, but if you look at the drow in the bestiary he has 1d8 HD, while the drow racial template has no HD increase. Does this mean, to follow your logic of gaining their HD increase, that if you reincarnate to a drow you would gain 1d8 HD?
If thats the case, then wierd. If not, then i would like to see the template as a gm, that says it has 2d8 racial HD before granting the player that. Just like i wouldnt force all of the troglodytes physical stats on him (12 str, 9 dex, 14 con) but the racial modifiers to these stats.
Just to make clear, then i agree to the human losing all racial physical abilities, and gaining all troglodyte ones (darkvision, natural armor, attacks, and so on).
James, i must admit i pretty much use your word as law on my table, but i still disagree with you on this subject.
How do you know that a troglodyte has 2d8 racial HD? i know the generated one in the bestiary has, but if you look at the drow in the bestiary he has 1d8 HD, while the drow racial template has no HD increase. Does this mean, to follow your logic of gaining their HD increase, that if you reincarnate to a drow you would gain 1d8 HD?
If thats the case, then wierd. If not, then i would like to see the template as a gm, that says it has 2d8 racial HD before granting the player that. Just like i wouldnt force all of the troglodytes physical stats on him (12 str, 9 dex, 14 con) but the racial modifiers to these stats.
Just to make clear, then i agree to the human losing all racial physical abilities, and gaining all troglodyte ones (darkvision, natural armor, attacks, and so on).
You answered your own question.
Races that don't get racial hit dice specify so in the entry, like the Drow and Noble Drow. The drow in the bestiary doesn't have a 1d8 hit die, it has a level of Warrior, which provides 1d8 hit die.
Troglodytes are naturally stronger/fitter/etc than humans, so if you reincarnate, you will be tougher/hardier/etc. Same as if you reincarnated into a lizarfolk, you'd have natural scales, more hit points, etc.
For future class levels, does the ex-human still receive his bonus skill rank per level?
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Creative Director
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James, i must admit i pretty much use your word as law on my table, but i still disagree with you on this subject.
How do you know that a troglodyte has 2d8 racial HD? i know the generated one in the bestiary has, but if you look at the drow in the bestiary he has 1d8 HD, while the drow racial template has no HD increase. Does this mean, to follow your logic of gaining their HD increase, that if you reincarnate to a drow you would gain 1d8 HD?
If thats the case, then wierd. If not, then i would like to see the template as a gm, that says it has 2d8 racial HD before granting the player that. Just like i wouldnt force all of the troglodytes physical stats on him (12 str, 9 dex, 14 con) but the racial modifiers to these stats.
Just to make clear, then i agree to the human losing all racial physical abilities, and gaining all troglodyte ones (darkvision, natural armor, attacks, and so on).
I know for 2 reasons:
1) I helped build the stat blocks for all the monsters in the Bestiaries.
2) (and this is the REAL reason) Monsters without racial Hit Dice ALWAYS have class levels. And that class level information appears near the top of their stat block. Something like a troglodyte, gnoll, or lizardfolk doesn't have any class levels at all in the Bestiary, but they still have Hit Dice. Thus, those are racial hit dice.
You can tell monsters who lack racial hit dice apart from those that do because the ones who lack Racial hit dice all have a "Monster Characters" section on the page.
So, if you reincarnate as a drow, you don't gain any HD. The sample drow in the book is a 1st level warrior. The fact that he has a d8 HD listed is actually an error, since in previous editons warriors had d8 Hit Dice. It should be a d10 HD.
wierd thing after 2 years of GMing pathfinder i didnt realise the drow had class levels. well i guess cool enough.
But why wouldnt the newly reincarnated char recieve the 12 str 9 dex and 14 con? he is made a troglodyte after all.
wierd thing after 2 years of GMing pathfinder i didnt realise the drow had class levels. well i guess cool enough.
But why wouldnt the newly reincarnated char recieve the 12 str 9 dex and 14 con? he is made a troglodyte after all.
That's the average troglodyte. That means he's got racial mods off of 10 or 11. So the troglodyte has +2 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON. When reincarnated, you take the previous racial mods off the character's physical stats (if any) and apply the new races' stat mods.
For example, if a Human put his +2 into con, and had 16/12/16 for physical stats, and got reincarnated as a troglodyte, he'd have 18/10/18 for stats (16+2 Str, 12-2 Dex, 16-2 (human racial)+4 Con).
Note that this could be highly detrimental (for example, if he had feats that required 12 dex, he no longer qualifies for them, and if they are in turn prerequisites for other feats, he's really hosed).
i still disagree on the stats part.
Can you please show me anywhere in the book where it states, or hints strongly, that racial modifiers are any difference from 10 or 11. To me it just seems like the PC want to get away with recieving as high bonusses as possible.
I want to make it totally clear, i completely agree that IF troglodytes recieve a +2 str, -2 dex and +4 con, then ofcourse the char. in question recieves this too. But what im questioning is how you conclude what racial modifiers he has, and why.
If i use your logic on the drow in the bestiary, i would get racial modifiers of +4 dex and -2 wis not at all what a real drow has.
The Orc would be +6 str, +2 con, -4 int, -2 wis -4 cha still very far from the real race.
And if you even look at the generic average human, before racial modifiers he would have stats of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 located in stats of his choosing. That would mean a racial +1 to to stats, and -1 to 2 stats, according to your above reasoning. While clearly the generic before racial bonus stats, dont have any racial modifiers in them.
He'd also gain 2d8 racial Hit Dice, which means his base attack bonus, saves, and skill ranks go up. He also would gain a new feat, and depending on if that extra 2d8 HD bumped him up enough enough, a +1 bonus to an ability score of his choosing.
I am aware that you have advised against it later on in this thread, but to clarify, I think the rules as written is strongly against this, as the spell writes: "Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged."
I love reincarnation, the not-knowing, the possibilities, and the chances of horribly crippling your character :)
But if the hit dice was transferred as well, I can't begin to imagine what it would do to balance. The newly troglodyte would gain average hp of 13(+2*former con bonus) + 2 hp per class level. When you add in +2 BAB, saves, a feat, and a few skills, then he might be significantly more effective than a similar fellow character.
Without HD, reincarnation has a small chance of being a great boost, but the bonusses can be balanced fairly well with social/rp drawbacks.
If i use your logic on the drow in the bestiary, i would get racial modifiers of +4 dex and -2 wis not at all what a real drow has.
The Orc would be +6 str, +2 con, -4 int, -2 wis -4 cha still very far from the real race.
In both of these cases, the difference is due to the fact that both the sample Drow and the sample Orc have class levels. Monsters with NPC class levels get the non-elite array of 13-12-11-10-9-8, while a monster with PC class levels gets the elite array of 15-14-13-12-10-8.
If you look at the Drow and the Orc with the non-elite array applied, you'll see that both races actually match exactly what mdt said above.
The Drow had 13 Dex, 12 Con, 11 Str, 10 Int, 9 Wis, 8 Cha before applying its racial modifiers.
The Orc had 13 Str, 12 Con, 11 Dex, 10 Wis, 9 Int, 8 Cha before applying its racial modifiers.
The Bestiary specifically says that applying the elite array means you apply +4, +4, +2, +2, -2 to the monster's ability scores, which very clearly implies that monsters are typically built using all 11s and 10s. The 3.5 rules specifically spelled out that non-classed monsters used those ability scores, while for PF the developers have said that it still works that way numerous times.
and im satisfied, thank you guys for clearing it up
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Since it is coming up in my game tonight actually this is what I am doing as a dm:
There is no random chart. Reincarnate forms the body based around the location it is cast and the caster. Orc witch in Belkzen? You will be an Orc.
In my case an elf pc died in the giant invasion of Sandpont. The dragon technically killed him but the true murderer was hubris.
So elf to human:
Lose
2 dexterity
Low light vision
Keen senses
immunity to magical sleep and save bonus vs enchantments
Gain
+4 con
Keep
Elven weapon familiarity
Elven magic (I see this as a result of upbringing not physiology)
In addition he will gain a new set of memories of growing up a human in sandpoint. Those in sandpoint will have their memories similarly altered. Similar to Connor in season 5 of Angel. He will vaguely retain his old memories.
So if you cast reincarnate on a child do they become young adults?
The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.
The spell brings you back as a young adult, whether you died of old age, or died of cancer, or died because you were playing in a tree and fell out on your 5th birthday.
So, casting it on a newborn babe that died would result in a newborn in a young adult body, who would have to develop (if possible).
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Reincarnate is a pretty strange and complex spell. It's certainly one of those that every GM should look at and decided exactly how he wants to run things in his game (awaken and simulacrum and miracle and wish are similar in this regard).
The way I handle reincarnation effects in adventures and sourcebooks is to follow the guidelines as guidenlines, not rules. If a human gets reincarnated as a troglodyte, they'd retain any mental human abilities, but would lose physical ones. They'd gain troglodyte physical abilities, but lose mental ones.
For this case, it's actaully pretty clear-cut.
The human, upone being reincarnated, would back out his +2 bonus to an ability score if it had been applied to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution; if that bonus had been applied to Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, he would not lose it. He gains the Trog's mods as listed, along with all of the troglodyte's attacks, stench, darkvision, armor, and stealth bonus for being able to shift his coloration.
He'd keep his bonus feat and extra skill ranks gained from being human since those are mental, not physical.
He'd also gain 2d8 racial Hit Dice, which means his base attack bonus, saves, and skill ranks go up. He also would gain a new feat, and depending on if that extra 2d8 HD bumped him up enough enough, a +1 bonus to an ability score of his choosing.
As for what his CR would be... if he's a player, that doesn't matter at all. CR isn't for player characters. He's now more powerful than the other characters in the party, of course, and that presents some challenges to the GM... but not so much if the other players aren't jealous and are cool about things. The GM, of course, can do what he needs to do to make the PC's new life as a troglodyte relatively rough and miserable, of course, since that kind of change would wreak havock on family and relationships and even simple trips to the grocery store.
If this is an NPC, once you rebuild all the stats, just sit down and look at it as a whole. Chances are good that...
James,
If this is the way it is supposed to work, and this is the intent of the spell, then please update it with errata because that is not what the spell says.
Quote:
"First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
First: you remove the subject's racial adjustments. That includes mental adjustments by the wording of the spell.
Then: you use the below chart to make adjustments on the subject's remaining ability scores. Here, you change the scores using the chart in the spell.
This makes perfect sense as written. Nowhere does it say "keep your mental adjustments to stats." Which works fine because it keeps some folks from getting more than one set of racial adjustments, such as a gish class reincarnated into a bugbear.
The way you've said it is done in source books is not the way the spell says to do it.
The character keeps class abilities, feats, skill ranks, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points.
The only thing the spell specifically does not give the character from the new race is the language. I don't see a reason to make presumptions about what else a character is not supposed to get.
I understand that some folks want to house rule the spell in a manner otherwise, and I'm fine with folks house ruling to their heart's content. It just happens that I'm fine with the spell as written.
Now, your above post is telling folks that Paizo is printing official material using a mechanic that is different from the one written in the spell. I have no problem with that, but I would like to urge you guys to provide some errata on the spell to make it work as you've mentioned, or to cease printing official material that treats it as if it's written in a manner it is not.
I'm only asking because this issue is creating arguments where no arguments are needed. Some folks take what you've said in this post as gospel, and some take the writing of the spell in the Core book as gospel.
And yes, I'm aware that you've said all GM's should adjudicate this spell as they best see fit. Unfortunately, people being people, well, a lot of us are looking for official rules because we trust you guys. So, with respect, please provide us with some errata. Or at least take a moment to mention that the spell can be interpreted as written.
Thanks.
...Reincarnate is a pretty strange and complex spell. It's certainly one of those that every GM should look at and decided exactly how he wants to run things in his game (awaken and simulacrum and miracle and wish are similar in this regard).
The way I handle reincarnation effects in adventures and sourcebooks is to follow the guidelines as guidenlines, not rules. If a human gets reincarnated as a troglodyte, they'd retain any mental human abilities, but would lose physical ones. They'd gain troglodyte physical abilities, but lose mental ones.
For this case, it's actaully pretty clear-cut.
The human, upone being reincarnated, would back out his +2 bonus to an ability score if it had been applied to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution; if that bonus had been applied to Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, he would not lose it. He gains the Trog's mods as listed, along with all of the troglodyte's attacks, stench, darkvision, armor, and stealth bonus for being able to shift his coloration.
He'd keep his bonus feat and extra skill ranks gained from being human since those are mental, not physical.
He'd also gain 2d8 racial Hit Dice, which means his base attack bonus, saves, and skill ranks go up. He also would gain a new feat, and depending on if that extra 2d8 HD bumped him up enough enough, a +1 bonus to an ability score of his choosing.
As for what his CR would be... if he's a player, that doesn't matter at all. CR isn't for player characters. He's now more powerful than the other characters in the party, of course, and that presents some challenges to the GM... but not so much if the other players aren't jealous and are cool about things. The GM, of course, can do what he needs to do to make the PC's new life as a troglodyte relatively rough and miserable, of course, since that kind of change would wreak havock on family and relationships and even simple trips to the grocery store.
If this is an NPC, once you rebuild all the stats, just sit down and look at it
The problem being, reincarnate an elf as an elf and suddenly he becomes less intelligent. Dwarves that reincarnate as dwarves become less wise and more charismatic, while gnomes and halflings become less charismatic... how does that make any sense?
Has this been cleared up anywhere? I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out a fair and balanced method for this spell.
Going from Elf to Human (ROW) seems like it will leave the player at a massive disadvantage which isn't fun for anyone.
Monsters with racial hit dice have them because those hit points, saves, and base attack are part of the body's design. A humanoid monster (because other monster types should have their own tables of results) with racial hit dice and no class levels reincarnated as a race with no racial HD would become a level 1 commoner, expert, or warrior, most likely.
It doesn't say that racial hit dice are included in the rules for reincarnate, and not changing those and only changing the ability scores is certainly a valid way to go, but if you change the racial hit dice, the resulting player/creature has more versimilitude as a member of the race they were reincarnated as.
Honestly, this thread has spurred me to do two things.
1.) Create a custom Reincarnate table for my home game that does not have any races with racial HD on it.
2.) Rewrite the Reincarnate spell so as to completely remove all racial effects and basically make a player have to rewrite their character as if it were that race from level one.
The RAW for the spell as it exists is confusing and honestly open to exploitation, so *shrug* I am changing it.
It's too bad that this spell is so confusing RAW, since it's RP gold :D. I fondly recall my 3.5 ed Ex-Elf, Centaur Rogue.
We've just decided to throw out the entire spell description, grab the ARG race builder, and build him a hybrid. I didn't allow race building at creation, but this is quite fun and effective as you can nudge traits around based on the circumstances of their death & reincarnation.
On a side-note: It looks like Reincarnate might not be PFS legal (haven't found an official link to that). Also, I checked what 5th ed did, and it looks like they've just axed the spell. Maybe no one has figured out how to fix it. :/
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If this is the way it is supposed to work, and this is the intent of the spell, then please update it with errata because that is not what the spell says.
Quote:
"First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores."
First: you remove the subject's racial adjustments. That includes mental adjustments by the wording of the spell.
Then: you use the below chart to make adjustments on the subject's remaining ability scores. Here, you change the scores using the chart in the spell.
This makes perfect sense as written. Nowhere does it say "keep your mental adjustments to stats." Which works fine because it keeps some folks from getting more than one set of racial adjustments, such as a gish class reincarnated into a bugbear.
Actually, it is what it says. The line you quoted is expounding on the line just before it.
It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments [TO THOSE ABILITY SCORES](since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.
No where in the spell does it say your mental ability scores change, it only ever addresses your physical scores. That's why you keep your mental stats (with previous racial bonuses and all).
Now, I would not run it 100% like James. I would not let an ex-human continue to get the extra skill point each level, but he wouldn't lose any previous points or feat from being human either.
What the heck? Can someone explain why —by RAW— any reincarnated character would gain HP plus BAB, saves, and skill points from the creatures hit dice? I don't see any justification for that. They're not bonuses the creature gets for being itself, it's just the base of what any creature is. Even if it's by RAW, it's in no way RAI, is it?
Because racial HD ARE "bonuses the creature gets for being itself." Bugbears are not humans, part of the definition of bugbears is that they have racial HD. So if you become one, you gain racial HD too.
As for a RAW reason to gain the HD, Reincarnate says "The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body" of the new race. Well, bugbear bodies have racial HD, because ALL bugbears have racial HD. Racial HD-less bugbears do not exist. So your new bugbear body has racial HD.
+1 Samasboy1 - on all points.
(Although I probably wouldn't argue if a GM let me keep human skill point bonus each level)
It always pains me when you see quotes out of context. Nearly all the confusion over this spell is caused because people don't read that paragraph in its entirety.
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Reincarnate is a pretty strange and complex spell. It's certainly one of those that every GM should look at and decided exactly how he wants to run things in his game (awaken and simulacrum and miracle and wish are similar in this regard).
The way I handle reincarnation effects in adventures and sourcebooks is to follow the guidelines as guidenlines, not rules. If a human gets reincarnated as a troglodyte, they'd retain any mental human abilities, but would lose physical ones. They'd gain troglodyte physical abilities, but lose mental ones.
For this case, it's actaully pretty clear-cut.
The human, upone being reincarnated, would back out his +2 bonus to an ability score if it had been applied to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution; if that bonus had been applied to Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, he would not lose it. He gains the Trog's mods as listed, along with all of the troglodyte's attacks, stench, darkvision, armor, and stealth bonus for being able to shift his coloration.
He'd keep his bonus feat and extra skill ranks gained from being human since those are mental, not physical.
He'd also gain 2d8 racial Hit Dice, which means his base attack bonus, saves, and skill ranks go up. He also would gain a new feat, and depending on if that extra 2d8 HD bumped him up enough enough, a +1 bonus to an ability score of his choosing.
As for what his CR would be... if he's a player, that doesn't matter at all. CR isn't for player characters. He's now more powerful than the other characters in the party, of course, and that presents some challenges to the GM... but not so much if the other players aren't jealous and are cool about things. The GM, of course, can do what he needs to do to make the PC's new life as a troglodyte relatively rough and miserable, of course, since that kind of change would wreak havock on family and relationships and even simple trips to the grocery store.
If this is an NPC, once you rebuild all the stats, just sit down and look at it as a whole. Chances are good...
For future class levels, does the ex-human still receive his bonus skill rank per level?Yup.
Reincarnate still troubles me.
* OK, so for ex-RaceOne, we look for physical aspects (but not the mental ones) and remove them. Not just Str, Con, Dex, but Size, Natural Armor,...* Then we add the physical aspects (but not the mental ones) of RaceTwo.
* That's stretching the literal text of the spell, as it only explicitly says to back out Str, Con, Dex.
My problem comes with "what is Physical and what is mental?".
* if an ex-Human's extra feat was "Toughness" is it physical?
* Is a Dwarf's +4 Dodge vs giants mental or physical?
* is Stonecunning innate (physical, like Darkvision) or mental?
* I presume a new-Dwarf doesn't get racial Weapon Familiarity?
* Elven immunity to Sleep?
* Gnome Magic: Mental, Physical or Supernatural?
* Gnome resistance to illusions?
* Half-Orc "Intimidating"? Intimidate is a skill, mostly mental, but the fluff implies it's that toothy grin that scares 'em?
* Orc Ferocity? Is that mental - carry on acting, ressting pain? or physical?
* A Dhampir's negative energy affinity? Keep it or Lose it? Gain it?
* Drow Light Blindness?
If a character swapped Race traits, it's more complex still.
* if an ex-Elf reincarnates as an Elf, can they swap Race Traits?
* what if a seemingly mental Race Trait was swapped for a seemingly physical one (or vice versa)? When do we remove or keep a trait?
* A Kobold (ARG) can swap Crafty (mental) for Gliding Wings (physical)...
Wah! My brain hurts...
Reincarnate still troubles me.
* OK, so for ex-RaceOne, we look for physical aspects (but not the mental ones) and remove them. Not just Str, Con, Dex, but Size, Natural Armor,...
* Then we add the physical aspects (but not the mental ones) of RaceTwo.
* That's stretching the literal text of the spell, as it only explicitly says to back out Str, Con, Dex.
My problem comes with "what is Physical and what is mental?".* if an ex-Human's extra feat was "Toughness" is it physical?
* Is a Dwarf's +4 Dodge vs giants mental or physical?
* is Stonecunning innate (physical, like Darkvision) or mental?
* I presume a new-Dwarf doesn't get racial Weapon Familiarity?
* Elven immunity to Sleep?
* Gnome Magic: Mental, Physical or Supernatural?
* Gnome resistance to illusions?
* Half-Orc "Intimidating"? Intimidate is a skill, mostly mental, but the fluff implies it's that toothy grin that scares 'em?
* Orc Ferocity? Is that mental - carry on acting, ressting pain? or physical?
* A Dhampir's negative energy affinity? Keep it or Lose it? Gain it?
* Drow Light Blindness?
* If an ex-Human's extra feat was "Toughness"
Physical* Dwarf's +4 Dodge vs giants
Mental (Defensive Training)
* Stonecunning
Mental
* Dwarf racial Weapon Familiarity?
Mental
* Elven immunity to Sleep?
Mental (Sleep is mind-affecting)
* Gnome Magic
Mental
* Gnome resistance to illusions?
Mental
* Half-Orc "Intimidating"?
Let's be racist here: Physical
* Orc Ferocity?
Mental
* A Dhampir's negative energy affinity?
Physical
* Drow Light Blindness?
Physical
If a character swapped Racial traits, it's more complex still.
* if an ex-Elf reincarnates as an Elf, can they swap Racial Traits?
* what if a seemingly mental Racial Trait was swapped for a seemingly physical one (or vice versa)? When do we remove or keep a trait?
* A Kobold (ARG) can swap Crafty (mental) for Gliding Wings (physical)...Wah! My brain hurts...
*Reincarnated elf as elf
It's an elf in every aspect, physical and mental. Why wouldn't they be able to retrain their Racial traits?*Mental or Physical swapped for the other
You keep a racial trait when it is mental. You remove it when it is physical. If you have swapped all your physical Racial traits into mental before the reincarnation, then you would keep them all.
*A Kobold
Yes, they can. They won't keep the Gliding Wings Racial trait since it is physical.
*****
You'll have to consult your GM when you reincarnate, since they might/will rule the Racial Traits differently.
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*Reincarnated elf as elf
It's an elf in every aspect, physical and mental. Why wouldn't they be able to retrain their Racial traits?*Mental or Physical swapped for the other
You keep a racial trait when it is mental. You remove it when it is physical. If you have swapped all your physical Racial traits into mental before the reincarnation, then you would keep them all.*A Kobold
Yes, they can. They won't keep the Gliding Wings Racial trait since it is physical.*****
You'll have to consult your GM when you reincarnate, since they might/will rule the Racial Traits differently.
That'd be me, then.
I turned to the forums to see if we can find a way through the morass.The general feel seems to be "the only rule is 'keep mental, swap physical'" with a need to inspect each and every property of the before & after character to see what sticks and what drops.
It also doesn't provide a clear guide for Magical properties - some look in-between the two alternatives.
There's also no *balance* between options, as the choices made can make a feature mental or physical with no thought for how reincarnate will handle it.
He'd keep his bonus feat and extra skill ranks gained from being human since those are mental, not physical.
which is nice and solid, but doesn't differentiate between choice of Mental or Physical Feats.
That'd be me, then.
I turned to the forums to see if we can find a way through the morass.The general feel seems to be "the only rule is 'keep mental, swap physical'" with a need to inspect each and every property of the before & after character to see what sticks and what drops.
It also doesn't provide a clear guide for Magical properties - some look in-between the two alternatives.
There's also no *balance* between options, as the choices made can make a feature mental or physical with no thought for how reincarnate will handle it.
He'd keep his bonus feat and extra skill ranks gained from being human since those are mental, not physical.which is nice and solid, but doesn't differentiate between choice of Mental or Physical Feats.
As for the *balance*: I can't say I remember the last time I made a character with the intent to reincarnate, but there will probably be someone who tries to cheese his way to the ultimate combo.
General rule, tho. Don't make a character with the intent to die.
*****
The majority of feats are mental ones, and the only time you have to differentiate between them is if the human started with two "Physical" feats.
But yeah. You'll have to look through the reincarnated character to see what sticks. There is no cheat-sheet, unfortunately.
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What about a Reincarnated Druid. i would make this character with the intent to die but only because coming back is a class feature.
I will necro the hell out of this thread.
For theoretical purposes (i've already ad hoced it so the char starts at level 1 and gave him his custom race), if i kill a very old red dragon and reincarnate him, does he lose all racial HD?
It seems to me like the dragon would not even be eligible for reincarnate unless he has class levels because he would lose almost the entirety of his powers as he comes back in human form.
Thanks for the input.
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I will necro the hell out of this thread.
For theoretical purposes (i've already ad hoced it so the char starts at level 1 and gave him his custom race), if i kill a very old red dragon and reincarnate him, does he lose all racial HD?
It seems to me like the dragon would not even be eligible for reincarnate unless he has class levels because he would lose almost the entirety of his powers as he comes back in human form.
Thanks for the input.
For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
An old dragon would come back as an adult of the dragon type, but perhaps not a true dragon. He wouldn't come back as a humanoid.
Class levels don't matter.
I will necro the hell out of this thread.
For theoretical purposes (i've already ad hoced it so the char starts at level 1 and gave him his custom race), if i kill a very old red dragon and reincarnate him, does he lose all racial HD?
It seems to me like the dragon would not even be eligible for reincarnate unless he has class levels because he would lose almost the entirety of his powers as he comes back in human form.
Thanks for the input.
For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.An old dragon would come back as an adult of the dragon type, but perhaps not a true dragon. He wouldn't come back as a humanoid.
Class levels don't matter.
Ahh i hadn't seen that indeed.
So to be fair there would need to be a table of creatures with the dragon type that you roll agaisn't, of which half dragon or any other race with no base HD could be a part of if they had the dragon type.
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I will necro the hell out of this thread.
For theoretical purposes (i've already ad hoced it so the char starts at level 1 and gave him his custom race), if i kill a very old red dragon and reincarnate him, does he lose all racial HD?
It seems to me like the dragon would not even be eligible for reincarnate unless he has class levels because he would lose almost the entirety of his powers as he comes back in human form.
Thanks for the input.
For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.An old dragon would come back as an adult of the dragon type, but perhaps not a true dragon. He wouldn't come back as a humanoid.
Class levels don't matter.
Ahh i hadn't seen that indeed.
So to be fair there would need to be a table of creatures with the dragon type that you roll agaisn't, of which half dragon or any other race with no base HD could be a part of if they had the dragon type.
Yep.