For a melee Eldritch Knight, I'd go for something like Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10. You miss out on 9th level spells, but I've never played a character that high anyways.
See if you can get your GM to allow Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana. Then you can do Battle Sorcerer 6/ Fighter1/ Eldritch Knight XX, that would give you true armored casting.
Hogarth's build is probably better but I kind of prefer more straight forward builds. Overall spellblades are probably not going to be competitive damage wise with a straight fighter or barbarian in melee.
I would consider a different tack, more like Wiz1/ElK10/Ftr9
(or Paladin levels instead of Fighter. Sorceror Caster Stat lines up with Paladins, but I think Wizards' faster Spell Level prog. is a signifigant advantage for them, especially given you're at least 2 CL behind from taking a Warrior class + ElK)
Like Hogarth said, Sor1/Ftr1/ElK10/DD8 is a pretty good way to progress Caster Level AND Melee all the way to 20.
(I think it'd be pretty easy to ad-lib an equivalent PrC for Demonic Bloodline Sorcerors)
ElK's Capstone: Spell Critical can be gained as early as 12th level if you start with Wiz1/Ftr1 and take all ElK until it's done, and once you have it you can really make the most of your dual melee/caster abilities by COMBINING actions (when you crit).
For Wizards, both Bonded Item or the Familiar (great for UMD tricks like you said) are good options, for Sorcerors Bonded Item doesn't really offer as much/work as well crafting-wise, so I'd definitely go for the Familiar for Sorcerors - of course, only Arcane Sorcerors get them as an option (Draconic Sorcerors are out of luck there).
For Wizard Schools, Universal's Hand of Apprentice shouldn't be overlooked: basically a free Throwing, Returning Enhancement on your favorite Weapon, you can get a Standard Attack without needing to Move, letting the Enemy come to you instead. The Diviner School Ability is also pretty damn good for a build like this (unfortunately here, ElK only applies to Class Levels for FEAT Pre-Req's, not Ability scaling).
Um... Ah Quandry the Eldritch Knight requires the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells.
Your build wouldn't work.
meh, it's late and my eyes hurt...
i was trying to say he might consider taking more "Fighter" levels
rather than putting all his levels but 1 in Full Caster/Eldritch Knight.
(because ElK doesn't offer much beyond style points to Casters in the Spellcasting department, but bonus Feats + diverse Training + good BAB/HD + decent Spell Level buffs/utility/spell critical make as good a gish as any...)
...i'm catching some sleep now...
In that case (which makes more sense) might I suggest bard levels?
7 bard levels will net you 3rd level spells, inspire courage +2, casting in light armor with shields, +5 BAB, and 7d8 HD. Add in that one level of fighter that is needed to get into the class and you have a nice gishy build to start things off with.
Bards have most of the nice buffing spells you are going to want, several of the utility spells you'll need and more of the stand up "moxie" that you want for going toe to toe.
Spells I would definitely grab include:
Mirror Image, Haste, Good Hope, and Grease, Cure Moderate Wounds.
There are of course more but the nice things about the bard is that with just two rounds to buff he's good to go: Haste and bardic music (as a move action) in the first round, Good Hope and moving into position in the second round, and all of that is going to help all of your allies in addition to yourself.
You'll be able to use that Mithral Breastplate due to your fighter level giving proficiency with medium armor, and the earliest you could get into Eldritch knight is going to be 7th level anyways:
Wizard 5/ Fighter 1
Sorcerer 6/ Fighter 1
Bard 7/ Fighter 1
Instead of fighter you could do Paladin for the save bonus, Barbarian with the clear mind rage power (for casting once while in rage) for the extra boost to STR (you'll still be able to take fighter feats with your EK bonus feats, and the speed boost would be nice) or even ranger if you want some two weapon fighting without having a lot of DEX.
For moderate melee while still getting 9th level spells, isn't that called a Cleric or Druid? Given some of the domain spells and powers you can still bring some boom to party by going that route. Even WoTCs gishy class the Duskblade doesn't do full casting of 9th level spells. You do kind of have have to pick, are you using the martial as your support of the casting or the casting as your support for the martial.
Most of the meaner suggestions I've seen for Caster focused EK is to jump on those ranged touch spells. See the Deities and Demigods 3.5ish SRD for the Reach Spell Metamagic feat to turn touch spells into ranged touch. Because of your typical better then mage BAB and related combat focused feats/abilities (Weapon Focus: Ranged Spell a.k.a ray/ranged touch) you can typical find one that bypass both saves and sometimes SR.
This is VERY much highlighting how hard it is to actually melee well AND keep 9th level spells.
My question is: Why should that be desirable, or even possible? Why should one character be able to do everything at once?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is VERY much highlighting how hard it is to actually melee well AND keep 9th level spells.My question is: Why should that be desirable, or even possible? Why should one character be able to do everything at once?
+1 a fighter/mage should be able to a) outfight the mage and b) outcast the fighter. Not fight equal to the fighter and cast equal to the wizard.
The EK seems a good combo at 5th with F1/WIZ 5/EK 10 ya get a BAB of 13 and caster level of a 14 not a bad trade off at all.
Duskblade/EK combo is fun as well. Crit with arcane channeling melee attack and you get two vampiric touches on the top of melee damage.
that one seems worse then straight up duskblade blade as you lose a caster level and gain nothing but 2 fighter feats. You would have to be 9th level to go into it as well. over all it seems staying duskblade is a way better deal
Would critical feats work with touch and ray spells? Not necessarily the most optimal use of those feats but could still be interesting.
Duskblade/EK combo is fun as well. Crit with arcane channeling melee attack and you get two vampiric touches on the top of melee damage.
Wait a sec, does that mean if you hit a crit with your channeled attack, the spell is considered a crit as well?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Duskblade/EK combo is fun as well. Crit with arcane channeling melee attack and you get two vampiric touches on the top of melee damage.Wait a sec, does that mean if you hit a crit with your channeled attack, the spell is considered a crit as well?
No, arcane melee attack from the duskblade allows the duskblade to channel one touch spell as part of the attack. A crit means you can fire off another vampiric touch from the EK capstone.
People have mixed opinions of the Sage's responses, but this is from the D&D v3.5 FAQ Updated 6/30/08 found here
If a duskblade scores a critical hit when channeling a spell through a melee attack, is the spell’s damage multiplied just like the weapon’s?
The rules aren’t as clear as they could be, but the Sage is inclined to say no. Here’s the key sentence, from the PHB II, page 20: “If the attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.” If you score a critical hit, the attack deals the normal (critical) damage. Then the spell resolves normally, but it’s just a rider effect applied due to the successful attack roll—you’re not actually using the spell in the normal manner, so it can’t score a critical hit.
Dip into Arcane Archer for the full BAB and a few useful tricks?
Hey, Ranged fighting is still fighting.or Arcane Trickster based build with 1 fighter level till you qualify?
Actually skip the fighter all together:
Wizard 3/ Rogue 3/ Arcane Trickster 6/ Arcane Archer 2/ Eldritch Knight 6.
You lose 5 caster levels though, BAB 14.
Dip into Arcane Archer for the full BAB and a few useful tricks?
Hey, Ranged fighting is still fighting.or Arcane Trickster based build with 1 fighter level till you qualify?
Actually, if you wanna go ranged fighter, Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Arcane Archer 3 / Eldritch Knight 10 is a really decent build, especially with Flame Arrow and Greater Magic Weapon (long durations, too).
You're looking at a BAB of 17, 9th level spells, and a reliance on Dexterity instead of Strength for your focus.
This is VERY much highlighting how hard it is to actually melee well AND keep 9th level spells.My question is: Why should that be desirable, or even possible? Why should one character be able to do everything at once?
Exactly, I 100% agree with Hogarth.
"9th Level Spells" aren't necessary to make giving up Melee Class Abilities worthwhile (while still having a melee-focus) - What's necessary is that the whole combo WORKS, whether that's thru synergistic abilities, action combination, or whatever else.If you want to just play at being a demi-God, there IS gestalt for that...
Which is fine with the Sneak Attack, maybe add Arcane Strike as a Feat in there to compensate for the BAB?
Actually skip the fighter all together:Wizard 3/ Rogue 3/ Arcane Trickster 6/ Arcane Archer 2/ Eldritch Knight 6.
You lose 5 caster levels though, BAB 14.
Arcane Strike only adds to damage so a better choice might be weapon focus... Greater bracers of archery would be a good choice since it is a competence bonus which is hard to come by from most magical items, as would be a luck stone, and possibly an ioun stone... have to double check the bonus on the ioun stone.
I would probably drop some of the EK for more AT though... finish up the progression... which would give wizard 3/ rogue 3/ arcane trickster 10/ arcane archer 2/ Eldritch Knight 2 BAB suffers more (lose 2 more BAB putting you at 12) but now you can sneak attack with an AOE spell.
Some questions come up as to how sneak attack would work on parts of this build, for example:
Could you sneak attack with the arrow shot (by actually shooting someone with it) then get sneak attack on the spell released from the arrow (has to be an AOE spell so you would have to alter the build to finish Arcane Trickster) and if you use a spell storing arrow with that does the spell stored get the sneak attack damage too?
Hi,
I've been switching with our group over to PF (currently playing ROTRL) but we don't have the Book yet (not in Queensland, Australia yet) so have been using th SRD.
Oh you Fibber. Both I and one of my players have a copy.
That said. Where in Queensland are you?
Batts
Could you sneak attack with the arrow shot (by actually shooting someone with it) then get sneak attack on the spell released from the arrow (has to be an AOE spell so you would have to alter the build to finish Arcane Trickster) and if you use a spell storing arrow with that does the spell stored get the sneak attack damage too?
Does Imbue Arrow even allow an attack? All it says is that you fire the Arrow as part of the casting, which unless it is a quickened or swift spell is already using your standard action. The ability doesn't actually say thing about actually attacking with the bow. Yes you need to roll to hit but may only be the need to see if the arrow is going where you want it. For an AoE it would almost be better to shoot the ground and not any one target.
Hi,
I've been switching with our group over to PF (currently playing ROTRL) but we don't have the Book yet (not in Queensland, Australia yet) so have been using th SRD.
Oh you Fibber. Both I and one of my players have a copy.
That said. Where in Queensland are you?
Batts
Townsville. Comics Haven doesn't have it as of last week. Gotta check this weekend.
wow. Small world. I Got Mine from comics haven about 4 weeks ago (But then again, I've had Pathfinder on Order since before Kerry took it over)
And speaking of which...Do we know each other? We must have crossed paths at some point. Are you a member of either of the clubs?
Batts
The only thing I would change is I would exchange one or two of your feats to include Arcane Armor Mastery so you can wear Mithral Heavier armor. You may not have enough time to fire up an Armor spell and nice set of Mithral Full Plate (5% spell failure) or Breastplate (0%) will come in handy. And you can use the wrists and etc for other powers instead of protection.
Ftr 3/Wiz 2/Runesmith 5/Eldrich Knight 10; BAB 16/11/6/1, Full armored spellcasting, 8th level spells or swap Ftr and Wiz levels to lose one attack but gain 9th level spells.
You have to be a dwarf, but hey that's just a bonus.
Ftr 3/Wiz 2/Runesmith 5/Eldrich Knight 10; BAB 16/11/6/1, Full armored spellcasting, 8th level spells or swap Ftr and Wiz levels to lose one attack but gain 9th level spells.
You have to be a dwarf, but hey that's just a bonus.
I like cleric 20
I mean, if you are going to melee as a caster why not get all the cool abilities for free instead of taking feats. Have your wiz buddy focus on debuffs, free armor and weapon proficiencies. Make your own so it's cheap. Round one divine power, quicken divine favor. Wiz drops the bomb disabling the mooks. Fighter buddy charges into the fray. Archer killed someone before you got to go. Round two Righteous might, quickened shield of faith (you cast magic vesments and greater magic weapon when you prayed this morning right?.. Right?) wiz buddy debuffs BBEG, fighter buddy continues slaughtering. Round 3, Hulk smash!
I guess the same could be done with a full spellcaster with contingent spells quicker, but it seems like for Gish the cleric is the best choice for a core character. Not to mention great saves on the most important types(in my opinion)
You're absolutely wrong. a 20th level single class character should always be better in thier field than someone who follows a split path. An EK properly balanced should not hope to match let alone beat a 20th level fighter or wizard in thier spheres of specialty. What they can offer is versatility which they get by trading off the pinnacles.
+1 a fighter/mage should be able to a) outfight the mage and b) outcast the fighter. Not fight equal to the fighter and cast equal to the wizard.
Wha....? Re-read what he said -- I think you're in agreement.
You also might want to look at Ftr 1/Bard 9/EK 10. Bard has a lot of nice buffing abilities and spells, and can use mithril breastplates with no arcane failure for no extra feats.
Or Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight 10 (if you're into archery).
Could you sneak attack with the arrow shot (by actually shooting someone with it) then get sneak attack on the spell released from the arrow (has to be an AOE spell so you would have to alter the build to finish Arcane Trickster) and if you use a spell storing arrow with that does the spell stored get the sneak attack damage too?Does Imbue Arrow even allow an attack? All it says is that you fire the Arrow as part of the casting, which unless it is a quickened or swift spell is already using your standard action. The ability doesn't actually say thing about actually attacking with the bow. Yes you need to roll to hit but may only be the need to see if the arrow is going where you want it. For an AoE it would almost be better to shoot the ground and not any one target.
See these are the rubs with this class ability. I can see good reason to just shoot it in the ground, but I could also see a guy wanting to get his arrow damage on one of the targets too (especially if he has sneak attack to continue the example).
It's an odd area that I'll bring up once James has an FAQ going... course if Nethys wants to chime in I'm all ears.
You're absolutely wrong. a 20th level single class character should always be better in thier field than someone who follows a split path. An EK properly balanced should not hope to match let alone beat a 20th level fighter or wizard in thier spheres of specialty. What they can offer is versatility which they get by trading off the pinnacles.
+1 a fighter/mage should be able to a) outfight the mage and b) outcast the fighter. Not fight equal to the fighter and cast equal to the wizard.
Yes, but you can get pretty close and they will remember you ... :)
Close to one of my builds - WoTC also has or had supplemental rules for Spellsword for up to level 20.
And if I had a DM that allowed Psionics, it would change again. I made one build with Psionics and one without. Then there are DMs that allow more than 3 classes. Heroes in the Epic book have more than 3.
Another approach is to use the Warmage class with eclectic learning so you can use greater teleport and spells usually not associated with Warmages.
Basically depending on the DM I would throw classes around that would allow for me to fight (like a decent warrior), cast (Divine or Arcane), heal (either throw casting or UMD or Psionics), buff (psionics or casting), and sneak (like a rogue). I like class diversity because the character becomes more self sufficient and you can either play solo or in a group. And with certain combinations, the toon can be quite challenging for a solo class.
@Ardenup: I'm not sure of the goal here:
Are you trying to have a character whose magical abilities mostly exist to amplify their melee abilities (+various utility uses), or are you just trying to have your cake and eat it too", i.e. be a general Arcane Full Casting God with Full BAB on the side? I'd think a successful Arcane Full Caster has plenty of better things to do besides MELEE ATTACKS, even if they HAD good BAB and useful Combat Feats...
Anyhow, I think creating such a "demonstration of a good build" (with 9th Level Spells and decent Melee ability) is pointless if you're NOT dealing with the Spells themselves. Why is having "9th Level Spells" important, if not for the specific spells? What I'm saying is, you should focus on what you will be getting out of those Spell Levels, which will give you your reason for having them. Off the top of my head, Quickened Dimension Door-type Spell abilities (i.e Full Attack more) are what might give a Gish some unique battlefield presence vs. (near)full-melee characters (would a Contingencied DimDoor be 'targettable' when Triggered or when Contingencied? That could be a good 'Teleport Spring Attack" Combo...?). If you know what USE you want to get out of these Spell Levels, then you could see if ALTERNATIVES, say Lesser Metamagic Rods (Quicken, Maximize, etc) or various Wondrous Items, would let you pull off the same tricks but without 9th Level Spellcasting.
You might also want to have an idea about the type of spells you will be letting loose via the ElK Capstone Spell Critical (AND BEFORE, to have a viable build from 1-20). I think only by looking at this level of detail can you really determine if you really want 9th Level Spells, or if 8th Level is really the best combo with Full BAB/Melee focus. And realistically, you want to focus on things that a non-Full-Caster fighter CANNOT achieve thru items or having a Caster Ally cast a reasonable number of Spells on him. Hope this was helpful.
Quandry,
A note about D.Door, it specifies that after you move via D.Door you don't get any other action that round. A kind of "Jet lag" so to speak. So it might be better to use after attacking to get out of range of retaliation.
Sure, I was thinking of typing that out as DD/Teleport/etc...
I had (mistakenly) assumed DD's action-limitation was mostly thru it's (normal) Standard Action.
Anyhow, my point was more general: What "tricks" are these Spells going to let you pull off?
The Feats here seem MINOR part of demonstrating a "9th Level Caster/ Near-Full BAB Melee-ist" build - I would want to see synergy between those Feats and Spells. Otherwise it just seems like a Full Caster who has the benefits of Transformation without it's penalties - Pathfinder's Class Abilities for Fighters/Rangers/Barbarians/Paladins are good enough that I'd rather be one of those and take a Caster Cohort via Leadership.
Quandary - I generally agree with you that the EK is more fun, and arguably more worthwhile, when you focus on combat first and spellcasting as backup/enhancement. Coming from that perspective, I think the biggest problem is the prerequisites! They mandate a caster-heavy entry to the class. Drifting off into house rule territory, I wonder what a good alternative would be?
First draft: +4 BAB, Spellcraft 6 ranks, Arcane Strike, Weapon Focus (any martial or exotic weapon).
The Spellcraft requirement keeps the existing 7th level minimum entry point, and Arcane Strike inherently requires an arcane caster level. A pure sorcerer or wizard can achieve these prereqs by 8th level (entering at 9th), but it costs three feats: proficiency, focus and Arcane Strike. That seems like a reasonable restriction; those feats are obviously not optimal for a pure caster. (Worth noting: an orc gets in with only two feats spent.) If you mix Sorc/Wiz with a full-BAB class to get in as early as possible, you have options ranging from caster 4/melee 2 through caster 1/melee 5, the latter of which works even with monks and rogues (and some clerics, but why?). Meanwhile, perhaps the coolest consequence is that Bard 6 qualifies without breaking a sweat!
Edit: This might be a little too open... I'm honestly not sure. I like the idea of a pure bard getting in at the earliest possible level, though, and I don't want to lose that. Perhaps minimum +5 BAB? This would allow only 2 Sor/Wiz levels if you want to get in by 7th, and delays monk/rogue entry to 8th level and pure casters to 10th. Probably better overall, but conversely breaks more existing builds. (Are EKs ever used in modules...?)
Edit 2: Since a pure caster can get in, would it be necessary to pull another level of spell advancement (probably 9th)? To be honest I don't think so, but it's a tough call.
One of my players may wind up going EK (sorcerer, took ranger at 2nd level) so this came up for discussion tonight... a couple of players thought that it was too attractive for full-BAB classes. An interesting snag is that this character (a professional undertaker) has Catch Off-Guard and uses a spade for melee, which means that WF(martial/exotic) prereq is not a good one for him. Of course he qualifies on "all martial weapons" now, but I still really like the idea of Bard 6 qualification. So how about this:
2nd level arcane spells, BAB +4, Arcane Strike, Light Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency (any one).
2nd level arcane spells, BAB +4, Arcane Strike, Light Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency (all) OR Exotic Weapon Proficiency (any).
I considered this, but there's actually no functional difference (at least among the core classes) unless you're worried about druids wanting to go EK, which I'm not. :) Either way, monks and rogues both qualify for the weapon condition; it's just a feat tax to make the EK less attractive for your average otherwise-single-classed wizard, so there's really no difference between requiring Exotic vs. Martial and I defaulted to the KISS principle.
Still harder to enter than Abjurant Champion!