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Hey everyone, first time poster here!
I'm playing a conjurer, and I'm loving that my celestial riding dog's smite evil adds +2 damage for the entire encounter now!
My question is: do celestial creatures' smite evil get the other benefits of a paladin's smiting, such as ignoring DR and dealing more damage against undead, etc? The beastiary says "as a paladin" but just gives the basic definition of smite evil without the extra stuff.
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If it say's as a paladin then i would say yes it does ignore DR and deal double damage against undead, dragons, or evil outsiders. In addition the creature would also get the defection bonus to AC too.
However, the bestiary preview 1 reads: "Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests)." Theres no mention of "as a paladin" so I would not add the bonuses listed based on this entry alone.
We will have to wait for the full product to confirm or deny this 100%.
If it say's as a paladin then i would say yes it does ignore DR and deal double damage against undead, dragons, or evil outsiders. In addition the creature would also get the defection bonus to AC too.
However, the bestiary preview 1 reads: "Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests)." Theres no mention of "as a paladin" so I would not add the bonuses listed based on this entry alone.
We will have to wait for the full product to confirm or deny this 100%.
Seconded.
When summoning a critter from the Bestiary, you would use the Bestiary's definition of this ability.
Only true paladisn (with class levels) would use the paladin version of Smite Evil.
If it say's as a paladin then i would say yes it does ignore DR and deal double damage against undead, dragons, or evil outsiders. In addition the creature would also get the defection bonus to AC too.
However, the bestiary preview 1 reads: "Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests)." Theres no mention of "as a paladin" so I would not add the bonuses listed based on this entry alone.
We will have to wait for the full product to confirm or deny this 100%.
Still much nicer than the former version. I don't recall what a riding dogs CHA is but basically grants a +2 to damage which is nice.
Also, welcome to the boards Akalsaris
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I didn't choose necromancy as an opposed school just so I could pull off thread necros this bad...
Since the topic is pretty much exactly what I wanted to use, my question is simply one to lay out exactly how the smite good/evil versions granted to summoned monsters in the Bestiary works (specifically, animals with the celestial/fiendish templates making them magical beasts):
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* +cha to hit, +HD to damage (this part is simple, now we reach0.
* No matter what the summoned creature's HD, its natural attacks NEVER count as magic with regard to harming incorporeal creatures.
* Even if it possesses DR good or evil, and even if it is using its smite ability, the creature's natural attacks NEVER bypass DR good/evil, the only benefit of smite is in the bonuses to hit and damage.
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Having not seen a good, clear statement addressing the above in the Bestiary FAQ or on the Paizo blog, I'd like to post it here and see if most of the feedback is in accordance with the above.
I didn't choose necromancy as an opposed school just so I could pull off thread necros this bad...
Since the topic is pretty much exactly what I wanted to use, my question is simply one to lay out exactly how the smite good/evil versions granted to summoned monsters in the Bestiary works (specifically, animals with the celestial/fiendish templates making them magical beasts):
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* +cha to hit, +HD to damage (this part is simple, now we reach0.* No matter what the summoned creature's HD, its natural attacks NEVER count as magic with regard to harming incorporeal creatures.
* Even if it possesses DR good or evil, and even if it is using its smite ability, the creature's natural attacks NEVER bypass DR good/evil, the only benefit of smite is in the bonuses to hit and damage.
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Having not seen a good, clear statement addressing the above in the Bestiary FAQ or on the Paizo blog, I'd like to post it here and see if most of the feedback is in accordance with the above.
All that the template says is:
smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until the target is dead or the celestial Creature rests).
So no, the template smite evil does not confer the ability to bypass DR or deal double bonus damage on the first hit vs. evil undead/dragons/outsiders. If the celestial creature has 5HD or more, then it gets DR/evil (5 or 10, depending on HD), which means it would get past someone else's DR/evil.
I always assumed it worked just like the paladin version, good catch.
If the celestial creature has 5HD or more, then it gets DR/evil (5 or 10, depending on HD), which means it would get past someone else's DR/evil.
This is not true. Having a specific type of DR doesn't let a creature bypass that same type of DR. It doesn't matter if a creature has DR/evil when it faces another creature that also has DR/evil.
Having a specific subtype, however, lets a creature bypass such DR. For instance, a creature with the (evil) subtype would bypass DR/evil.
The misconception about being able to overcome the same DR you also possess has existed since 3.5, but is (usually) the result of a misreading of this passage of the DR-rules:
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
If you read that closely, it doesn't say anything about being able to overcome DR if you have the same DR, but rather about being able to overcome DR if you have a specific alignment subtype.
I say the Smite evil works just as the paladin, because when monster have sneak attacks for example or other class like abilities, they always work exactly like they behave as the classes, but Paizo is not going to copy paste what they wrote on the class features.
Same names don't mean much. There is a rogue and ninja ability with the same name. There is a duelist ability that has the same name as a teamwork feat.
Hide in plain sight has different workings for different classes.If they wanted it to duplicate the paladin ability they could have just said this ability works just like the paladin ability of the same name instead of only printing part of it.
Summon creatures can Smite Evil if they are Celestial. The problem is that the description in the template section (which is a summary description) is ambiguous at best. However,, treating these as separate abilities leads to moronic rules lawyering that only slows down the game. What happens if you see Smite Evil in a description? Do you have to go through the rules and determine which one it is? Also in other descriiptions of items and abilities the Smite Evil ability is treated as one and the same ability. For instance, the Champion Feature for Armror provides:
Champion
Aura faint abjuration; CL 5th; Weight —; Price +1 Bonus
DESCRIPTION
This armor special ability works only for good creatures with the challenge ability (such as cavaliers) or THE SMITE EVIL ABILITY (such as paladins, half-celestials, and creatures with the celestial creature template). A wearer with one of these abilities gains a +2 sacred bonus to AC against attacks from the chosen opponent. (Emphasis Added). Found in Ultiamte Equipment and Advanced Players Guide.
The description says THE, as in one and the same ability. Even if it said "a" (which it doesn't) the description describes one ability that can be manifested by three groups Paladins, Half-Celestials, and Creatures with the Celestial Template.
Story/Campaign: The idea that a Paladin would manifest a holy power inherently (at 1st level) stronger than a creature who lives in the realm that is the source of the Paladin's power, seems strained at best and utterly imbecilic at worse.
A celestial creature's smite evil ability does exactly what the ability says--no more, and no less. If you think it's "imbecilic", feel free to run it differently at your table.
There are a bunch of other cases of abilities with the exact same name, with minute differences, sharing said same name specifically so that they will be affected by the same other things.
Like, the Weapon Master's Weapon Training is fairly different from the basic Fighter's, but they can be affected by similar effects.
The Investigator's Alchemy is not quite the same as the Alchemist's. Very similar, but not identical.
And those are player options. Monsters tend to have much simpler, streamlined versions all around. On purpose.
Nothing new here.
Fairly common occurence, really.
Also, a seven year necro just for the sake of being insulting ? That's innovative and bold.
I agree with Psychic Octopus on the analysis.
Things should be the same, or they should be different.
As there are no explicit differences spelled out in the "versions" of smite evil, then they are the same.
And no, the paladin listing showing more things isn't an explicit difference. One of them would need to say something to the effect of "Unlike celestial template smite evil..." or "Unlike paladins smite evil..."
It's interesting to watch with edition drift too. The celestial version got updated to be more like the paladin, but then the paladin version got buffed even more than that.
Once per day a celestial creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests).
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Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.
At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.
Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
I agree with Psychic Octopus on the analysis.
Things should be the same, or they should be different.
As there are no explicit differences spelled out in the "versions" of smite evil, then they are the same.
And no, the paladin listing showing more things isn't an explicit difference. One of them would need to say something to the effect of "Unlike celestial template smite evil..." or "Unlike paladins smite evil..."
Seems like an explicit difference to me. *shrug*
As for SKR's take: I agree that it's a great principle by which to design game rules. However, Paizo has long since abandoned that principle with respect to Pathfinder.
Wow, I am surprised by the amount of reactions. My post was more provocative then I thought.
Accordingly, I would like point out that I wasn’t implying anyone was imbecilic. Rather, I am pointing out how the story/background factor supports the position that the Smite Evil ability should be treated as the same ability (just as the Champion armor enchantment does). When there is a rules question one of the questions I consider is-does the application of the rule detract or enhance the story background? A related question is-are creatures and objects acting in accordance with their defined natures? For example, recently I played in a game where another player was playing a Leshy character. The player wanted to turn into a vine plant (small size) and squeeze way through a tiny crack in the floor. Although the rules don’t state the Leshy could do such a thing and the Leshy was defined as a small creature, the DM allowed it because it made sense given the nature of a vine.
Similarly, the nature of a Paladin is someone who strives to be good in hopes of becoming a celestial being. The source of a Paladin’s powers are the celestial realms. Again, it does not make much sense from mythos or story perspective to have a creature who has been summoned from the plane that is the source of a Paladin’s power (at 1st level) to wield a slightly different yet inherently weaker version of the same power. Call me a necro all you want (ad hominem), it doesn’t change the argument above. But this isn’t the only factor I talked about.
The other factor I considered was rules consistency and simplicity. Generally, it is better to have simpler and consistent rules than not and therefore, it is better to interpret rules in such a fashion. Terms should be named consistently because if not confusion and absurdity arises. Again this factor points to interpreting Smite Evil to be equal to Smite Evil (A=A). And just because Piazo does create confusion and inconsistency in its rules at times doesn’t mean that a DM should compound the issue. Having consistent and simple rules is still better.
Finally, earlier I didn’t bring up one factor because I didn’t think it applied to this issue – Game Balance. If there is a rules question and the rules interpretation would break the game then the alternative should be embraced even if the alternative is more complicated, inconsistent and doesn’t make any sense or is even imbecilic from a story perspective. I bring this up now to show that a DM or any person isn’t imbecilic or wrong if they ignore or disregard the story at times. Sometimes it is the best call to make.