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just had a question about caster level minimums for creating magical items. is the caster level a requirment? or a prerequiste that can be ignored at the standard +5 igorance penalty?
Take a cloak of resistance +2 for example. i've got a 5th level cleric crafting the item in my home game.
the DC starts at 5 + 5 = 10 ( the item is listed as CL 5th in the magic item section ). Is the base DC 10 for any cloak of resistance? or is the DC really 8 for a +1, 11 for a +2, 14 for a +3, 17 for a +4, or 20 for a +5?
what about +2 or +3 cloaks? the item lists a minimum caster level of bonus x 3 for the cloak. so cl 3rd for +1, cl 6th for +2, cl 9th for +3.
does that change the DC to 5 + the new caster level? or is that a prerequisite that can be ignored by adding 5 to the DC of the item?
if its a prerequisite that must be met / can be ignored, then at 5th level, the DC for creating a +1 cloak is dc 10, and the dc for creating a +2 cloak ... or a +5 cloak... is 15 using the CL listed in the item description.
and if the character has the money to invest in creating it and makes the DC of the check, what is the end result item's caster level for purposes of dispelling? 5th like the item says? what if it had been created by a 3rd level character. wouldn't the caster level have to be 3rd instead of 5th?
I believe caster level is not a requirement, as it is not mentioned in the Requirements section. Caster Level is supplied to give you a general idea of how powerful items are, and so you can adjudicate spells like 'detect magic' or item saving throws.
In fact the SRD says: "The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation."
See here - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/magic-items---final - under "Magic Item Descriptions"
For a Cloak of Resistance, I believe this puts the DC at 5 + (3 * bonus), as you mentioned. So DC 8 for a +1 Cloak, 11 for a +2, 14 for a +3, 17 for a +4, and 20 for a +5. So yes, this would mean at least caster level 3 for a +1 cloak, caster level 6 for a +2, and so on.
For caster level of items you create the crafter can decide what level to set, so long as it's as least as high as the minimum and no higher than their own level. If your player has a 5th level cleric they could craft a +1 Cloak of Resistance and decide to set the caster level for the item at 3rd, 4th, or 5th (their max level). I believe the cloak would cost the same amount in all three cases but the higher caster level means a higher DC in exchange for higher item saving throws if they succeed.
Your point about ignoring the caster level in exchange for increasing the DC by 5 is interesting. It seems like this opens up a lot of new doors for crafters. So could a level 5 character create a +5 Cloak of Resistance with a DC 25 check? Or do you raise the DC by 5 for each three levels you are missing?
Searching through the archives I found this post, which says the opposite: for anything besides potions, scrolls, and wands "the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level". hm.
Prerequisite - Requisite - Require - Requirement
There is no real difference in meaning between Prerequisite and Requirement.
CL would seem just as legal to bypass with the standard -5 penalty as any other prereq-requirement.
Okay, after some searching here is the data I found on caster level being (or not being) a requirement.
The Monte Cook boards have a thread here discussing this very topic. In particular see this post by Carthain, a very knowledgeable and rules-aware fellow. Cartain argues that caster level is not a requirement.
1. The 'Requirements' section for magic items comes *after* the Caster Level section; it does not include the Caster Level section. (the Pathfinder SRD says "The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level". They're not, really; they're given at the end of the description, but maybe that was something the designers forgot to update?)
2. The thread also mentions WotC's D&D 3.5 FAQ, which says
"Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The "CL" entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.) A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create a harp of charming (even though he's not high-enough level to cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an item or another character)."
This seems pretty explicit. You unfortunately have to download the FAQ as a PDF file, but you can find it here, in the 'v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ' on p. 63.
3. Finally, the thread mentions Monte Cook's "Making Magic Items FAQ", which you can find here. Monte was one of the designers of the 3e system and posted the FAQ to help people understand some of the design intentions. The FAQ says:
"Note what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that you have to be the listed level to make a given item. It's not a prerequisite. You don't have to be 17th level to create a 1st-level pearl of power -- you just have to meet the prerequisites. Prerequisites, you'll notice, get their own section. It comes next. All you do with caster levels is determine the level-dependent effects of an item. Those listed in the DMG are just averages. When you determine an item randomly, or pick one out of the book for your player characters to find or to equip an NPC, that's the caster level of the item. That's all it is."
I agree wholeheartedly that these sentences are confusing: "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level". It would be nice if the SRD specifically mentioned that caster level was *not* a requirement (or specifically mentioned that it was, if that's what the designers intended). But it sounds like what these sentences were originally intended to mean was "since these other types of items don't directly mimic spells look at the other requirements for the item to determine the minimum caster level".
Thus I believe that caster level is *not* a requirement for making magic items, except in cases where level is specifically mentioned in the 'Requirements' section, such as with Cloaks of Resistance. The Pathfinder team, of course, is free to overrule this for the Pathfinder system (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but that's my best guess at a correct interpretation based on the history of the 3e ruleset.
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So Seraphimpunk for the case of your player's Cleric, since caster level is specifically mentioned in the Requirements section it sounds like they can either wait until they're high enough level to craft the Cloak they want, or they can raise the DC by 5 and make as powerful a Cloak as they're capable of rolling. In the second case, since magic item DCs are "5 + the caster level for the item" I believe you would calculate the normal DC of the item you want to create and then add 5. So if your 5th level cleric wants to make a Cloak of Resistance +5, the DC (if they were level 15) would normally be 5 + 15 = 20. Your player's cleric would add 5 to get a DC of 25. Make sense?
A pearl of Power has CL17. I would find it strange if you had to be level 17 just to create a pearl of power (1st) ;-)
Dndculix is right - CL is never a requirement, unless it is specifically called out as a requirement in the Prerequisites section. It is there to indicate the average caster-level of generic items.
A pearl of Power has CL17. I would find it strange if you had to be level 17 just to create a pearl of power (1st) ;-)
The CL does give us the difficulty in making the item and the target for which it is neutralized by a targeted dispell check.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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3.5 Errata removed CL as a requirement.
CL is the Caster Level of any item found in a game, but any item created has the CL of the creator (so a Pearl of Power 1st level would have CL 1 instead of 17 if created by a player.)
The PRPG doesn't list CL in the requirement section for most items, but if it did that item would require that CL.
The only listings of rules that I can find that specificaly require a certain caster level is making weapons and armor. With weapons it says you have to have a caster level at least 3 times the enhancement bonus. The same is for armor. Bracers of Armor require twice the bonus as the caster level.
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with armor and weapons, amulets of mighty fists, amulets of natural armor, rings of protection, and magic bracers of defense, ( and really any item with a variable cost for a numeric bonus) there should be a requisite caster level. because it does bring up the question of how a 5th level caster can make a +2 item, when the spell they're making the item from requires they be 6th level in order to get the +2 bonus.
if it was just for purposes of dispel magic, i'd say fine, that item has a lower caster level, its easier to suppress. but this is the actual bonus. you've gotta be a 12th level caster for greater magic weapon to get the +4 bonus. items that are listed as "the caster must be x level or x level * such and such bonus" seem more concrete.
even increasing the +5 penalty per stage of caster level difference doesn't explain how to handle that a 5th level caster can make an item with a +4 or +5 bonus... permanently... when they can't even enchant it temporarily with their spells/day.
that's what it comes down to for me, and isn't addressed properly in any of the rules. I'm going to treat that as a Requirement for casting, like having the Craft Arms & Armor feat, or Craft Wondrous Item. In game i just see it as one of those signs, like at an amusement park, "you must be this high to craft this item."
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almost four months, and no further solution.
i've adjusted the CL of various pearls of power in my game, and made caster level a requirement, not a pre-requisite to be ignored.
i think the intention was that pre-requisites would be limited to crafting items without knowing specific spells, or possessing certain other feats ( like silent spell for metamagic silence rods ).
in most cases the spells chosen were mostly for flavor ( a fire spell for a fire related item. ) or seemed logical ( having quicken metamagic for making a rod of quicken ) but not all casters would know the spell, have access to the spell, or take a feat they would only use for crafting.
for that, bypassing requirements made great sense. +5 to the DC as the caster figures out a creative way to make the item without knowing some spell or feat.
but i think the power behind the spells, actual caster levels, shouldn't be bypassed by non-magical skill in Spellcraft.
and by the rules, crafters can also make a wondrous item to give them a bonus on Spellcraft. say a +5. by 5th level its damn near affordable and a good investment for a crafter. which handily helps them negate the penalty of rushing or crafting without a prerequisite.
almost four months, and no further solution.
i've adjusted the CL of various pearls of power in my game, and made caster level a requirement, not a pre-requisite to be ignored.
i think the intention was that pre-requisites would be limited to crafting items without knowing specific spells, or possessing certain other feats ( like silent spell for metamagic silence rods ).
in most cases the spells chosen were mostly for flavor ( a fire spell for a fire related item. ) or seemed logical ( having quicken metamagic for making a rod of quicken ) but not all casters would know the spell, have access to the spell, or take a feat they would only use for crafting.
for that, bypassing requirements made great sense. +5 to the DC as the caster figures out a creative way to make the item without knowing some spell or feat.but i think the power behind the spells, actual caster levels, shouldn't be bypassed by non-magical skill in Spellcraft.
and by the rules, crafters can also make a wondrous item to give them a bonus on Spellcraft. say a +5. by 5th level its damn near affordable and a good investment for a crafter. which handily helps them negate the penalty of rushing or crafting without a prerequisite.
I wont be using the Caster levels as a requirement at my table, pearls of power are not the only example of a low cost item that has a very high caster level. For me those are just the CL's for generic items, and have nothing to do with crafting them. After all, why would there be specific mention of caster levels for some items and not for others? I think caster level as a requirement is only applicable to weapons, amulets of mighty fists and other items where its actually mentioned.
I wont be using the Caster levels as a requirement at my table, pearls of power are not the only example of a low cost item that has a very high caster level. For me those are just the CL's for generic items, and have nothing to do with crafting them. After all, why would there be specific mention of caster levels for some items and not for others? I think caster level as a requirement is only applicable to weapons, amulets of mighty fists and other items where its actually mentioned.
Exactly! :)
The listed CL is for a standard version of that item.
A 1st-level pearl of power, for example has a CL 17.
I can create a pearl of power at 5th-level since that CL 17 is not a prerequisite. However, if I did create said pearl so early in my career, wouldn't my pearl end up as a CL 5 pearl of power (1st) making it far easier to dispel?
This can be especially important on items such as a hat of disguise or a ring of invisibility where the CL might determine the duration or other variables of the activated spell effect.
If it doesn't work this way, then what's to keep me from arbitrarily assigning CL 20 to any homebrew item I ever create (which being homebrew, could even be a standard magic item out of the Core book, but with a higher CL)? Also, if one can pick the CL, why aren't all magic items CL 20? Or CL 100?
The listed CL is for a standard version of that item.
A 1st-level pearl of power, for example has a CL 17.
I can create a pearl of power at 5th-level since that CL 17 is not a prerequisite. However, if I did create said pearl so early in my career, wouldn't my pearl end up as a CL 5 pearl of power (1st) making it far easier to dispel?
This can be especially important on items such as a hat of disguise or a ring of invisibility where the CL might determine the duration or other variables of the activated spell effect.
If it doesn't work this way, then what's to keep me from arbitrarily assigning CL 20 to any homebrew item I ever create (which being homebrew, could even be a standard magic item out of the Core book, but with a higher CL)? Also, if one can pick the CL, why aren't all magic items CL 20? Or CL 100?
The caster level the item is created at determines the Spellcraft DC to create it. If you as a level 1 player tried to make a CL 20 item, the dc would likely be out of your reach and you may very well end up with a cursed item instead.
The caster level the item is created at determines the Spellcraft DC to create it. If you as a level 1 player tried to make a CL 20 item, the dc would likely be out of your reach and you may very well end up with a cursed item instead.The listed CL is for a standard version of that item.
A 1st-level pearl of power, for example has a CL 17.
I can create a pearl of power at 5th-level since that CL 17 is not a prerequisite. However, if I did create said pearl so early in my career, wouldn't my pearl end up as a CL 5 pearl of power (1st) making it far easier to dispel?
This can be especially important on items such as a hat of disguise or a ring of invisibility where the CL might determine the duration or other variables of the activated spell effect.
If it doesn't work this way, then what's to keep me from arbitrarily assigning CL 20 to any homebrew item I ever create (which being homebrew, could even be a standard magic item out of the Core book, but with a higher CL)? Also, if one can pick the CL, why aren't all magic items CL 20? Or CL 100?
My lvl 3 party member has a +18 to spellcraft
The caster level the item is created at determines the Spellcraft DC to create it. If you as a level 1 player tried to make a CL 20 item, the dc would likely be out of your reach and you may very well end up with a cursed item instead.The listed CL is for a standard version of that item.
A 1st-level pearl of power, for example has a CL 17.
I can create a pearl of power at 5th-level since that CL 17 is not a prerequisite. However, if I did create said pearl so early in my career, wouldn't my pearl end up as a CL 5 pearl of power (1st) making it far easier to dispel?
This can be especially important on items such as a hat of disguise or a ring of invisibility where the CL might determine the duration or other variables of the activated spell effect.
If it doesn't work this way, then what's to keep me from arbitrarily assigning CL 20 to any homebrew item I ever create (which being homebrew, could even be a standard magic item out of the Core book, but with a higher CL)? Also, if one can pick the CL, why aren't all magic items CL 20? Or CL 100?
Here's an entry on the fan-made FAQ that's relevant, though there's no source
Here's an entry on the fan-made FAQ that's relevant, though there's no sourceThe caster level the item is created at determines the Spellcraft DC to create it. If you as a level 1 player tried to make a CL 20 item, the dc would likely be out of your reach and you may very well end up with a cursed item instead.The listed CL is for a standard version of that item.
A 1st-level pearl of power, for example has a CL 17.
I can create a pearl of power at 5th-level since that CL 17 is not a prerequisite. However, if I did create said pearl so early in my career, wouldn't my pearl end up as a CL 5 pearl of power (1st) making it far easier to dispel?
This can be especially important on items such as a hat of disguise or a ring of invisibility where the CL might determine the duration or other variables of the activated spell effect.
If it doesn't work this way, then what's to keep me from arbitrarily assigning CL 20 to any homebrew item I ever create (which being homebrew, could even be a standard magic item out of the Core book, but with a higher CL)? Also, if one can pick the CL, why aren't all magic items CL 20? Or CL 100?
I've seen a bunch of places reference either that faq or annother thread, but failed to find an official source.
The caster level the item is created at determines the Spellcraft DC to create it. If you as a level 1 player tried to make a CL 20 item, the dc would likely be out of your reach and you may very well end up with a cursed item instead.
Well, that certainly makes it more challenging, doesn't it?