If the criterion is that all level options need to bring the same power to the character, what should be done about those classes (prestige and otherwise) that are significantly low-powered? Bard, ranger? Dragon disciple? Should they be used as the target to which all other classes should be nerfed, then?
Or is the basic assumption, that all level options should be equally powerful, wrong?
If the criterion is that all level options need to bring the same power to the character, what should be done about those classes (prestige and otherwise) that are significantly low-powered? Bard, ranger? Dragon disciple? Should they be used as the target to which all other classes should be nerfed, then? Or is the basic assumption, that all level options should be equally powerful, wrong?
If one toilet flushes properly, and another overflows, I'd fix the one not working -- not damage the functional one. Even if it never flushes as well as the good toilet, at least you're not ankle-deep in waste.
The Malconvoker is actually a highlight of a well designed prestige class, lots of cool abilities, it actually makes a summoner viable presuming you get your hands on a way to summon as a standard action, and it costs you something valuable to get in.
Malconvoker FTW!!
Whee, a cute nonsensical analogy! I haven't got many of those recently! Thank you for making my day a little better.
But seriously. If you can't think of anything better than toilets and plumbing to compare RPG rules to, don't answer. It was a serious question, and I would still like to know what you intend to do about the lack of power in certain classes. Balance doesn't just cut one way. You need to make a decision about what power level is the target one if you require all class options to have the same power. If you want a consequence of this failure, consider the reason for a relative lack of bards and rangers, and an absolute lack of dragon disciples.
But seriously. If you can't think of anything better than toilets and plumbing to compare RPG rules to, don't answer. It was a serious question, and I would still like to know what you intend to do about the lack of power in certain classes. Balance doesn't just cut one way. You need to make a decision about what power level is the target one if you require all class options to have the same power. If you want a consequence of this failure, consider the reason for a relative lack of bards and rangers, and an absolute lack of dragon disciples.
I've answered your "serious question," here and in other threads -- and it's not what I "intend" to do, but what I've already done in my home game. If you don't like the answer, because it takes too much work for you or is too hard or you just don't think it's important, that's fine -- don't use it yourself. If you don't like the analogy or can't be bothered to find the relevance in it, that's fine, too, ignore it. If all you're doing is trolling, though, then, in your own words, don't answer.
Why not? The act of balancing doesn't take any calm, just requires you to do it, you either keep balance or you don't.I think grease also works. Frenzied enemies dont get to make balance checks. (IIRC)Second level spell... Calm Emotions.
I love Frenzied Berserker and personally don't find it all that overpowered. Mainly because you end up being a burdon to your party who has to take you down.
Balance requires concentration, and you cant do concentrated related things while in a frenzy or rage.
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Or is the basic assumption, that all level options should be equally powerful, wrong?
Yes, all level options should be equally powerful. But each different level does not need to be even in all regards. One level can be rank 2 in area 1, rank 2 in area 2, while another can be rank 1 in area 1, and rank 3 in area 2. It's when one is 2:3, and the other is 3:3 that there is a problem. And yes, I know it is a difficult feat to accomplish.
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Has anyone else noticed that most of the "broken" PRCs are the ones designed for arcane casters?
When you make a PRC class for any other class there is a process of you give up power X to get ability Y. When you make a PRC for a wizard the only thing they have is spell casting progression and 4 bonus feats.
...and all their school specialization abilities except the bonus casting slots.
The entire point of giving full casters actual class abilities in PF (roundly decried as buffing the classes who needed it least in various places around Teh Intarwebz) was because it meant there were reasons not to prestige out as soon as possible.
This is, incidentally, why loremaster isn't broken. The benefits you get aren't likely to overpower you relative to the stuff you're losing by not sticking with your base class.
As for giving up things to get into a PrC: The Pathfinder wizard must give up their d6 hit die and the +1 HP/level from favored class. Most 3.5 full-casting PrCs have a d4 hit die. Going from 6.5 to 4.5 hp/level (assuming a +2 Con) is quite noticeable.
Shouldn't any PrC's HP be adjusted based on the BAB like the rest of the Pathfinder classes?
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Balance requires concentration, and you cant do concentrated related things while in a frenzy or rage.Why not? The act of balancing doesn't take any calm, just requires you to do it, you either keep balance or you don't.I think grease also works. Frenzied enemies dont get to make balance checks. (IIRC)Second level spell... Calm Emotions.
I love Frenzied Berserker and personally don't find it all that overpowered. Mainly because you end up being a burdon to your party who has to take you down.
...While in a rage, a barbarian cannot use any charisma, dexterity, or intelligence based skills (except for Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
...While raging, the barbarian cannot use any charisma, dexterity, or intelligence based skills, (except for balance, escape artist, intimidate, and ride), the concentration skill, ...
You've been cheating people dude...big time. The only thing that actually restricts you away from balancing is the Frenzy, rage has no restrictions on balancing, as its taken into account that while you are angry you are still somewhat protecting yourself.
When you frenzy however, that it the true blind rage that you don't care who you hurt so long as they make a satisfying squish when you do so.
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Most broken Prestige Classes I've seen to date are both from FR books; namely the FR version of Bladesinger and Hammer of Moradin. The former (from 'Races of Faerun') grants you an extra attack *and* spell per round (IIRC both stack with 'Haste', and you can also cast Quickened spells). The latter pumps up your damage with warhammer to high heavens and gives it some truly unbalanced abilities ('Bane' ability against three types, for example) -- combine it with Craftmaster (?) from 'Races of Stone' to further ramp up your hammer damage bonus *AND* to be able to create magic items (even artifacts) as if you were a 25th level caster.Hammer of Moradin not really that powerful.
As for the battle smith you multiplied her class level by 3 for purposes of enchanting Arms and Armor. So if you were a level 15 cleric level 5 Battlesmith you had an effective level of 30 for enchanting (arms and armor only). The problem was that you still did not qualify for the feat Craft Epic Arms and Armor (which required 28 ranks in spellcraft and knowledge Arcanum) so you could NOT make artifacts. You were restricted to the same stuff any enchanter could make. So a max of +5 bonus to hit and damage and +10 in total bonuses.
The class DID give you the ability to get to the point you could enchant +5 arms and armor faster than normal, and you got some bonuses with what you made, but you gave up 5 caster levels in the process.
Well, we neved used 'Epic Level Handbook', so non-Epic casters (CL 20) could make artifacts. Battlesmith is indeed the class I referred to; it also allows you to add your Wis bonus to damage rolls with hammer, and Hammer of Moradin doubles your STR bonus with it. This build required good Str and Wis, and could easily surpass the damage bonuses other "builds" or classes I've seen can reach (something like +30 without power attack or spells; just the "mandatory" belt and headband to boost your Str and Wis as high as possible plus magical weapon). Add in the other hammer-related powers from Hammer of Moradin (Bane quality vs. several races/types, returning, powerful throw that let you attack everyone in a 60 ft. long path, etc.).
*Shrug*, I'm not a "min-maxer" myself, but I know a bunch of powergamers who seemed to think this build and Bladesinger and some Dervish-build were the most abusable combinations in the game.
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As for giving up things to get into a PrC: The Pathfinder wizard must give up their d6 hit die and the +1 HP/level from favored class. Most 3.5 full-casting PrCs have a d4 hit die. Going from 6.5 to 4.5 hp/level (assuming a +2 Con) is quite noticeable.Shouldn't any PrC's HP be adjusted based on the BAB like the rest of the Pathfinder classes?
No. Pathfinder specifically justifies its significant power upgrade of all base classes with respect to 3.5 (including the favored class bonus) as an effort to make the core classes competitive against PrCs as presented in 3.5 splatbooks. Applying those changes to the PrCs as well utterly defies the purpose.
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Incorrect, they count as permanent after wearing for 24 hours. If removed you would lose the benefit until you could gain back the bonus again, however it still counted as permanent at the point you could take the class ability.
Is that in the core rulebook? I believe you--I've just been told in the past that I couldn't count the headband modifier to things like skill points, even if I never took it off. It helps to be able to point to a page if rule questions come up.
EDIT: Er, somehow this ended up in the wrong thread. Never had that happen before.
No. Pathfinder specifically justifies its significant power upgrade of all base classes with respect to 3.5 (including the favored class bonus) as an effort to make the core classes competitive against PrCs as presented in 3.5 splatbooks. Applying those changes to the PrCs as well utterly defies the purpose.
Pathfinder also says that it changed the die to match the BAB so that there was a common mechanism for determining which die a class used. Plus, Paizo upped the HD of their versions of the DMG prestige classes, including both Lore Master and Mystic Theurge.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Ran and played a number of classes (usually 10-15th level games) over the last couple years. Here are my comments:
1) Ur-Priest isn't a PC class (requires Evil alignment) so is basically a DM only class (I've used it several times in builds of BBEG in my Sun game.)
2) Planar Shepard is fine if you don't consider time a planar trait (and I don't think it was intended to be included when they wrote the class) so with this change and interpreting the Magical Beast to be only Celestial/Fiendish creatures (not every Magical Beast) and you have a well balanced class. I had a Druid 5/PS 10 build as a player in my Sun game.
3) Frenzied Berserker is perfectly fine if you correctly add up the multipliers (+100% = +1 not +2 for Two Handed) using the most recent errata meanings of +100% published after the printed FB book. Had a player with it in Sunday game.
4) Radiant Servant of Pelor is fine, most people incorrectly read it to Empower/Maximize all spells instead of just spells cast from your domain slots. Played one in two different 15th level and 18th level games.
5) Sublime Chord is fine. Had a player in Tues game with it and another player in Sunday game with it. Works well, not a problem at all.
6) Incantrix is fine, a player in my Weds game has it (14th level character), but I've no idea what you mean by getting Epic feats Pre-Epic since that isn't possible.
7) Initiate of the Seven Veils is nice, but not too over the top. A character (15th level) had it in Sat game.
8) Telflammar Shadowlord I've used a couple times as a DM character, isn't it Evil anyway? So essentially a non PC class.
9) Truenamer was great, had a player from Sunday play it at 11th level.
10) Binder is pretty nice, a Wed player has one at 14th level. Makes an awesome combat oriented player.
11) Crusader (and by extension all the Bo9S classes) are the most trouble in any class I've seen. They were so effective (with the admitted by WotC team "4E playtest" mechanics) that they are the only class I've actually nerfed from RAW in my games. I make them more like a D&D caster with vancian like powers.
13) Abjurant Champion is fine.
14) I've never had players with these classes so I can't comment but they certainly don't look that powerful to me:
Malconvoker, Chameleon, Loremaster, Swiftblade
Balance requires concentration, and you cant do concentrated related things while in a frenzy or rage.Why not? The act of balancing doesn't take any calm, just requires you to do it, you either keep balance or you don't.I think grease also works. Frenzied enemies dont get to make balance checks. (IIRC)Second level spell... Calm Emotions.
I love Frenzied Berserker and personally don't find it all that overpowered. Mainly because you end up being a burdon to your party who has to take you down....While in a rage, a barbarian cannot use any charisma, dexterity, or intelligence based skills (except for Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration....While raging, the barbarian cannot use any charisma, dexterity, or intelligence based skills, (except for balance, escape artist, intimidate, and ride), the concentration skill, ...You've been cheating people dude...big time. The only thing that actually restricts you away from balancing is the Frenzy, rage has no restrictions on balancing, as its taken into account that while you are angry you are still somewhat protecting yourself.
When you frenzy however, that it the true blind rage that you don't care who you hurt so long as they make a satisfying squish when you do so.
Thanks for the correction.
Staying out of the fray for the moment, I put forward what is perhaps the single most broken PrC in all of 3.5.
Beholder Mage.
The class gains ninth-level spells over ten levels, with a caster level equal to twice its class level. It learns from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, with the ability to learn all spells like a Wizard, but cast spontaneously like a Sorcerer. At every level, they lose use of one eyestalk, but gain the ability to cast one spell out of that eyestalk every round as a free action, regardless of original caster level. And, for good measure, they don't need material components.
The only requirements are being a beholder and plucking out that central eye.
If you save your money, you can afford to pay an NPC to cast Polymorph Any Object on you to turn you into a beholder by level 4. 3 if your teammates chip in. If you have at least 17 intelligence and cast Enlarge Person on yourself beforehand, the duration is permanent. Then, all you need to is pluck out your central eye to qualify to be a Beholder Mage. By level 14, you can have 20th-level Wizard casting, spontaneous from all spells known, and cast 12 spells per round (10 from eyestalks, 1 normal, 1 quickened).
Anyone got something more broken than that?
Anyone got something more broken than that?
Of course, you can never float into town, or everyone but your teammates will try and kill you. But if you're an antisocial misanthrope, as many optimized adventurers are, you've got it made.
That's what the Hat of Disguise is for. :P
That's what the Hat of Disguise is for. :P
With holes cut in it to let your eyestalks out, I suppose...
But of course.
Racial HD and level adjustment counted in... you are well into epic levels, aren't you my dear beholder lovers? :P
How much broken is this by the time you can get it? Seriously to gain a level (kinda required to enter the PRC) You first need to get enough XP to level up as a beholder.
Actually, you're not epic. There's no level boost, as Polymorph Any Object doesn't give you the hit die, don't take away your class levels, and doesn't bestow the level adjustment, so you're still leveling normally, with the same level and hit points and class abilities. You're just a beholder now, same effective level as before, and advancing in the most absurdly overpowered prestige class in the game.
1) Ur-Priest isn't a PC class (requires Evil alignment) so is basically a DM only class (I've used it several times in builds of BBEG in my Sun game.)There I disagree: there is no reason at all that PCs shouldn't be evil, provided that they can be mature and don't simply mess things up for the group "because I'm evil". Some of the best villains I've ever fought were PCs.
True enough, though there's also a question whether an Ur Priest has to be evil, or merely willing to embezzle from the gods. Given some of the pantheons out there, this does not even necessarily seem to be a moral failing. Indeed, it could even be taken as a moral imperative....
Staying out of the fray for the moment, I put forward what is perhaps the single most broken PrC in all of 3.5.
Beholder Mage.
The class gains ninth-level spells over ten levels, with a caster level equal to twice its class level. It learns from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, with the ability to learn all spells like a Wizard, but cast spontaneously like a Sorcerer. At every level, they lose use of one eyestalk, but gain the ability to cast one spell out of that eyestalk every round as a free action, regardless of original caster level. And, for good measure, they don't need material components.
The only requirements are being a beholder and plucking out that central eye.
If you save your money, you can afford to pay an NPC to cast Polymorph Any Object on you to turn you into a beholder by level 4. 3 if your teammates chip in. If you have at least 17 intelligence and cast Enlarge Person on yourself beforehand, the duration is permanent. Then, all you need to is pluck out your central eye to qualify to be a Beholder Mage. By level 14, you can have 20th-level Wizard casting, spontaneous from all spells known, and cast 12 spells per round (10 from eyestalks, 1 normal, 1 quickened).
Anyone got something more broken than that?
Now wouldn't this be an Artificial Game Construct for GMs and not a PC?
Its a hand-me-down from Spelljammer. You're not serious about a player running a Beholder as PC are you?
Both the Poodle and the Pony PRC are WAY overpowered. The Poodle gets leg humping at first level and the Pony... My God, the raw power that the Pony PRC wields is unbelievable! I say that everyone ban those two PRCs.
I don't consider the Beholder Mage to be as broken as Planar Shepherd. Why? Because you have to intentionally break Beholder Mage; you have to jump through several hoops to qualify for the class, which requires metagaming in the extreme. Planar Shepherd, on the other hand, can be broken completely innocently. It doesn't have any extraordinary entry requirements, it's obviously intended as a PC class, and if they'd only paid a little more attention to what's included as planar traits it'd be a perfectly fun, flavorful class.
Unfortunately, they didn't account for the time planar trait, which can lead to a player picking a grossly overpowered (or grossly underpowered -- there are planes that operate slower than the prime material, too) plane entirely by accident. And, in fact, getting a 10:1 turn advantage is even stronger than the Beholder Mage's 11 spells per round, because you can get 20 spells (10 standard 10 swift action) and 10 move actions per person in the party for each round the opponent gets.
So, yeah, IMO the Beholder Mage is lower on the brokenness scale than Planar Shepherd.
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Pious Templar. "Gee, Paladins aren't making enough saving throws, let's give 'em Mettle! And Smite advancement. And Weapon Specialization in their deity's favored weapon. And DR X/-. And a couple of bonus feats. And a mediocre spellcasting ability."
A Paladin/Pious Templar with a maxed out Charisma and a Ring of Evasion is damned near invincible.
Pious Templar. "Gee, Paladins aren't making enough saving throws, let's give 'em Mettle! And Smite advancement. And Weapon Specialization in their deity's favored weapon. And DR X/-. And a couple of bonus feats. And a mediocre spellcasting ability."
A Paladin/Pious Templar with a maxed out Charisma and a Ring of Evasion is damned near invincible.
Oh, come on.
Paladin abilities that Pious Templar advances:
Smite Evil
Paladin abilities that Pious Templar does not advance:
Auras
Spellcasting (Pious Templar has a separate spellcasting progression with a separate casting stat)
Weapon Spirit/Special Mount
Lay On Hands
Mercies
Channeling
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Put another way, Paladin/Pious Templars give up the following:
Auras of Justice (share smite evil), Faith (weapons always good-aligned), and Righteousness (DR 5/evil + immune to compulsions).
Three mercies, including the ability to cure blindness, deafness, paralyzation, and stuns.
Channel Positive Energy loses 5d6 healing/damage and 5 DC.
Lay on Hands loses 5d6 healing and 5 uses.
Weapon Spirit loses +4 bonus, 2 uses per day, and 10 minutes per use (a decrease from 80 minutes/day to 20 minutes/day).
Special Mount loses 7 HD (granting 7+ skill points, 3 feats, 6 BAB, 4/4/2 saves, and 2 bonus stat points), 6 natural armor, 3 bonus strength and dex, and Improved Evasion.
Several spells per day, including a minimum of one 2nd, one 3rd, and two 4th level spells.
and Holy Champion (DR 10/evil, maximized lay on hands and channeled energy, and banishment on smite)
In exchange for all that, they gain:
Mettle (which isn't really all that useful, as not many effects give partial success with Fort or Will saves).
Weapon Specialization in a weapon that may or may not be useful for them.
DR 2/- (remember, they gave up DR 10/evil for this).
Two bonus feats.
That hardly seems to be an overpowered trade-off, to me.
Actually, you're not epic. There's no level boost, as Polymorph Any Object doesn't give you the hit die, don't take away your class levels, and doesn't bestow the level adjustment, so you're still leveling normally, with the same level and hit points and class abilities. You're just a beholder now, same effective level as before, and advancing in the most absurdly overpowered prestige class in the game.
Well polymorph any object isn't permanent under most circumstances and it doesn't give you the ability to use beholder's abilities... actually it doesn't allow beholder form at all. You need the Shapechange spell for transformation into an aberration, which I'd require permanent to level in the Beholder mage PRC anyway (no, the Permanency spell doesn't work with that spell).
It has been this way since 3.0, so the only way to become a beholder permanently is the ritual described in the Savage species. Which lets you either exchange class levels for the levels of aberration or lets you pay for those levels first befoe allowing you to level in anything else. See becoming a monster, p. 145 of that book.
I think that being a beholder is a requirement enough for the PRC for me to justify what the class has to offer.
actually it doesn't allow beholder form at all.
Yes, it does. And it is permanent as long as the target is an "animal" (in the classification sense, not the creature type sense) and two of the three following criteria: intelligence of 17+, aberration type, or Large size.
However, as I said, getting someone to polymorph any object you into a beholder so you can become a Beholder Mage is pretty extreme metagaming and would likely be met with intense Orbital Bovine Launcher bombardment.
Now wouldn't this be an Artificial Game Construct for GMs and not a PC?
Its a hand-me-down from Spelljammer. You're not serious about a player running a Beholder as PC are you?
Chief, the question at hand is most broken PrCs. I presented what is perhaps the most broken PrC and how to access it.
I also know how to kill everyone in Ohio with a spell that just finds the nearest city, turn people into wights before they were even born, fire infinitely large trees that don't exist for infinite damage, and I know the fundamental premises of Pun Pun.
It's called theoretical optimization. It's about how far the rules can theoretically be pushed. Not about anything that should be pulled in-game.
Well polymorph any object isn't permanent under most circumstances and it doesn't give you the ability to use beholder's abilities... actually it doesn't allow beholder form at all. You need the Shapechange spell for transformation into an aberration, which I'd require permanent to level in the Beholder mage PRC anyway (no, the Permanency spell doesn't work with that spell).
I did rather explicitly set up the terms under which the human-to-beholder PAO would be permanent. Int score of 17+ and Enlarge Person to become large. So, for the duration factor, there's +5 for both being animals, +2 for having equal or greater intelligence, and +2 for being the same size. That makes nine, which is permanent.
Polymorph (and by extension PAO) does allow transformation into aberrations by default, and PAO doesn't have the HD cap. It bestows all associated types, so you are now an aberration, a beholder, truly and permanently.
No, it doesn't grant you the supernatural abilities, but you don't need the supernatural abilities. You just need the form to qualify for the PrC, and then you start accruing class abilities.
This isn't about what you'd allow, and if anyone finds a DM who would allow this, lemme know; I have a bridge to sell 'em. It's about the brokenness within rules themselves. This method of becoming a level 10 Beholder Mage by level 13/14 is perfectly legal.
However, as I said, getting someone to polymorph any object you into a beholder so you can become a Beholder Mage is pretty extreme metagaming and would likely be met with intense Orbital Bovine Launcher bombardment.
*Casts Baleful Transposition to put the priest under the bovine instead.*
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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human-to-beholder PAO would be permanent. Int score of 17+ and Enlarge Person to become large. So, for the duration factor, there's +5 for both being animals, +2 for having equal or greater intelligence, and +2 for being the same size. That makes nine, which is permanent.
Which as soon as it is cast, the Enlarge Person would become inactive (you are no longer a person) and this would lower the duration factor by +2 (same size) leaving you at 7 or "1 week."
Problem number 2, is the wording is different than the 3.5 version and you don't gain the type. So you don't become a "True Beholder" and are ineligible for Beholder Mage.
Which as soon as it is cast, the Enlarge Person would become inactive (you are no longer a person) and this would lower the duration factor by +2 (same size) leaving you at 7 or "1 week."
Incorrect. Targets are only checked for validity when the spell is cast. Once a spell has taken effect, the target: entry is irrelevant.
Even if that were not true, you'd still be incorrect. Duration for polymorph any object is set when the spell is cast, but your type doesn't (didn't) change until after the spell is cast. That means that enlarge person wouldn't wear off until after the PAO had taken effect, which is after the duration is determined.
actually it doesn't allow beholder form at all.Yes, it does. And it is permanent as long as the target is an "animal" (in the classification sense, not the creature type sense) and two of the three following criteria: intelligence of 17+, aberration type, or Large size.
However, as I said, getting someone to polymorph any object you into a beholder so you can become a Beholder Mage is pretty extreme metagaming and would likely be met with intense Orbital Bovine Launcher bombardment.
I think that the beholder is no more related to stones, than it is to animals or devils for that matter. It's a flying potato from the far realm with dozen ray shooting eyes. Alien matter.
And I can't find aberration stated as allowed under polymorph, greater polymorph or polymorph any object any longer.
Alter Self allows humanoids, Beast Shape allows magical beast and animals, Elemental Body allows (surprisingly) elementals and Form of the Dragon allows dragons. these are all valid spells that are allowed under the Polymorph any Object.
And I can't find aberration stated as allowed under polymorph, greater polymorph or polymorph any object any longer.
Alter Self allows humanoids, Beast Shape allows magical beast and animals, Elemental Body allows (surprisingly) elementals and Form of the Dragon allows dragons. these are all valid spells that are allowed under the Polymorph any Object.
You're reading PAO wrong. It can also substitute for any of those spells. That doesn't mean it's restricted to only what those spells can accomplish. After all, none of those spells allow you to polymorph a sheep into a wool coat, something that is explicitly called out in the duration table.
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No, it doesn't grant you the supernatural abilities, but you don't need the supernatural abilities. You just need the form to qualify for the PrC, and then you start accruing class abilities.
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Special requirement to enter beholder mage is to put out central antimagic eye. Your central eye wouldn't be antimagic. Spell casting progression also says that you must sacrifice the spell-like power of one of your eyestalks, which you don't have. It's like not paying in the shop. No goods without money IMO :)
You're reading PAO wrong. It can also substitute for any of those spells. That doesn't mean it's restricted to only what those spells can accomplish. After all, none of those spells allow you to polymorph a sheep into a wool coat, something that is explicitly called out in the duration table.And I can't find aberration stated as allowed under polymorph, greater polymorph or polymorph any object any longer.
Alter Self allows humanoids, Beast Shape allows magical beast and animals, Elemental Body allows (surprisingly) elementals and Form of the Dragon allows dragons. these are all valid spells that are allowed under the Polymorph any Object.
Ah... the "can also" part was overlooked then. My bad
It doesn't state that the central antimagic eye has to be functional. It's just a designation of which eye you're actually poking out. And you do get that eye, just not with a functioning AMF. But if you really want to be picky about it, Assume Supernatural Ability can grant the AMF. Nor is it ever stated that the eyestalks must be functional.
If you reject Enlarge Person, there's still a psionic tattoo of Expansion.
In the animal/vegetable/mineral divide, beholders are undeniably "animal." Bizarre, exotic, alien animals, sure, but animals nonetheless.
And Polymorph does explicitly grant you the ability to become an aberration, not that PAO needs it.
I'm not saying any DM should ever allow this stunt under any circumstances, but it is perfectly legal.
It doesn't state that the central antimagic eye has to be functional. It's just a designation of which eye you're actually poking out. And you do get that eye, just not with a functioning AMF. But if you really want to be picky about it, Assume Supernatural Ability can grant the AMF. Nor is it ever stated that the eyestalks must be functional.
The spellcasting says that you must sacrifice your spell-like power. If a 1st level commoner was able to cast 3.5 wish spell. You need to pay the XP cost? You don't have the XP? Nothing happens.
In the animal/vegetable/mineral divide, beholders are undeniably "animal." Bizarre, exotic, alien animals, sure, but animals nonetheless.
Beholders aren't natural creatures. They originate from the Far Realm, so their exact nature isn't that undeniable. What makes you think that they are animals and not intelligent plants for that matter? And what about outsiders? They are creatures, but which kingdom does fit them? Actually the kingdom of animal/vegetable/mineral is not even settled in real world (fungi are sometimes added to plants, sometimes to animals and sometimes considered a kingdom of their own), but let's keep that debate out.
And Polymorph does explicitly grant you the ability to become an aberration, not that PAO needs it.
Not under Pathfinder rules. Although the PAO might allow it (the spell doesn't say that it doesn't).
I love Frenzied Berserker and personally don't find it all that overpowered. Mainly because you end up being a burdon to your party who has to take you down.
That's the exact reason that FB is one of the very few things I have banned from my game.
I had a FB once. At first, it was cute. Look at all the fun RP we can have dealing with our vicious little FB. Kinda like the A-Team always having to knock B.A. out to put him on a plane...
Then it got tedious.
After that it was irritating.
And then after that it was frustrating.
The worst part is that it detracted from other roleplaying, other exploring, other combat, other adventuring. After every battle came the repetitious, frustrating FB cool-down period when what we all really wanted to do was get on with exploring the next room.
Then I got an email from a player who didn't want a big confrontation in the game. The player was quitting the game because the FB was so damn frustrating to deal with that he didn't want to play anymore, and he didn't want to tell his buddy not to play a class he wanted to play, so quitting the game was the easiest option.
That's when I put an end to it.
No more FB for my game.
Besides, the cool-down factor did NOT balance the class. In battle, the FB still destroyed everything I threw at him far too easily. Any monster that could challenge him became a certain death if it went after any other PC.
I got really tired of "OK, up ahead you see 7 trolls. 6 of them look normal but one of them is twice as big as the others and wearing full plate and wielding a troll-sized sword dripping ice and frost all over the ground."
Next battle "Charging out of the woods are 8 knights with their lances leveled, and riding beside them is one more knight astride a Linnorm. This knight is wearing glowing black armor and surrounded with a shimmering nimbus of some kind."
Next battle - much the same. Some normal stuff for the normal PCs and one really scary thing that always went after the FB...
No amount of boring, tedious, frustrating cool-down after the FB wiped out everything on the battlefield was fair balance against the very fact that he could wipe out everything on the battlefield.
(somewhat exaggerated, but that's the basic gist of it).
If there is no reason not to go into a PrC, then there is clearly something fishy about said PrC.
This is very true.
But the converse is also true: If there is no reason to go into a PrC, then there is clearly something fishy about said PrC.
Now, some can argue that the PrC can be all about the RP. That's fine, but before we go down that road, the tread topic is "Most Broken PrCs" - this thread is not about whether we take a class because it fits our character concept or gives us great RP options. This thread is about pure game mechanics and whether the PrCs in question are broken, mechanically, or not.
Building a PrC that gives you nothing but a new name to call yourself for RP reasons is just as fishy as building a PrC that gives you unlimited cosmic power.
It's all fine if I build a PrC and call it "Mercenary". Requirements +1 BAB, must have been paid to engage in at least one combat. Class Features: exactly the same as Fighter - no change at all.
Great, so what? I could just stay as a fighter and call myself a mercenary. No need for this PrC.
So there should be, must be some gain for taking the PrC. Some mechanical gain.
And, in Pathfinder, taking a PrC means you automatically lose your choice of 1 HP or 1 Skill Point for not pursuing your favored class, so any PrC in Pathfinder must give enough new benefit to make up for that and to offer something extra, something that mechanically justifies taking the PrC - or else it's a fishy PrC.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Incorrect. Targets are only checked for validity when the spell is cast.
Even if that were not true, you'd still be incorrect. Duration for polymorph any object is set when the spell is cast, but your type doesn't (didn't) change until after the spell is cast. That means that enlarge person wouldn't wear off until after the PAO had taken effect, which is after the duration is determined.
Targets are only checked for validity, but spells become inactive if other effects make them inactive. Just like casting two Bear's Endurance would make the first one irrelevant, but if the second was dispelled then the first would "reactivate" by the rules.
As for the second, while you may be true there is no line in the spell covering duration factor changes after cast. But there are a number of other spells that have durations change based on their use. If you want a Strict RAW interpretation, you can cheat this way by deliberately exploiting a weakness in the RAW that the RAI (intent) would clearly prohibit.
Not under Pathfinder rules. Although the PAO might allow it (the spell doesn't say that it doesn't).
In Pathfinder, you take forms, you don't become types. So regardless of whether or not it is permanent, you are not a "True Beholder" in Pathfinder with PAO.
Just like casting two Bear's Endurance would make the first one irrelevant, but if the second was dispelled then the first would "reactivate" by the rules.
No. Both bear's endurance spells are active at all times. If one were dispelled, the remaining one wouldn't "reactivate"; it would simply already be active. As far as I'm aware, the only way to make a spell inactive is to enter an area of antimagic, which is a special function of antimagic fields and zones and not a general rule of magic. Further, a spell that becomes inactive because of an antimagic effect doesn't re-check for validity when the antimagic effect ends, because it's not being cast. The only time a spell's target is checked is when the spell is cast. Nothing that happens afterward matters.
As for the second, while you may be true there is no line in the spell covering duration factor changes after cast. But there are a number of other spells that have durations change based on their use
The only spells I can think of that have dynamic durations (ie, the duration can change after the spell has been cast) are all based on the concept of expending the spell's remaining duration to get a larger bonus. For example, the crown of <foo> spells in PHB2.
Polymorph any object has a variable duration, but that's no different than almost any other spell with a duration other than Instantaneous or Permanent. Would you rule that a mage armor cast right before a wizard found and wore an item that gave him +1 caster level would get an extra hour of duration? After all, the wizard's caster level changed, which is what the duration of mage armor is based on. That's no different than having your size change, which is one of the criteria that the duration of polymorph any object is based on.
In Pathfinder, you take forms, you don't become types. So regardless of whether or not it is permanent, you are not a "True Beholder" in Pathfinder with PAO.
This, on the other hand, is completely true. The Beholder Mage loophole is fixed in Pathfinder. Yet another point in "favor" of Planar Shepherd ;)
