Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Why does the damage depend on strength? The wizard didn't throw the weapon. It was guided to the target by the power of his mind.
Considering that ray spells use dexterity modifiers for range touch attacks. Wouldn't it be more appropriate that the to hit modifier be dexterity as all other ranged attacks with the damage being the intelligence modifier?
I don't mind it being two stats but where in the wild wild world of sports did they come up with strength as one of them?
Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.Why does the damage depend on strength? The wizard didn't throw the weapon. It was guided to the target by the power of his mind.
Considering that ray spells use dexterity modifiers for range touch attacks. Wouldn't it be more appropriate that the to hit modifier be dexterity as all other ranged attacks with the damage being the intelligence modifier?
It's a horrible ability now. Utterly useless. Just acid splash or ray of frost.
It could be that Strength is the stat always associated with weapon damage? Melee weapons, ranged throwing weapons, even mighty bows add Strength to damage, so it's not exactly a stretch for this. :)
Technically, you still are throwing your weapon, therefore the STR is still the damage mod, however your guiding it with your mind..not your aim (DEX). Thats why you get your +INT on the to hit.
It's a horrible ability now. Utterly useless. Just acid splash or ray of frost.
Seems pretty useful to me. 18INT elven wizard hurling a longsword? Sounds good to me.
Try a half-orc wizard with a bonded falchion and 14+ Strength...
Try a half-orc wizard with a bonded falchion and 14+ Strength...
I have a friend who plays a paladin who took one level of wizard just to have this ability. Gets really sick with his weapon which I wonder if it can be his paladin special weapon AND his Bonded Weapon for a wizard....
I have a friend who plays a paladin who took one level of wizard just to have this ability. Gets really sick with his weapon which I wonder if it can be his paladin special weapon AND his Bonded Weapon for a wizard....
Can't see why not. He gave up a level just to do it, and throwing it like that IS cool. I'd allow it. He's added the throwing and returning properties to it, so to speak, with a supernatural ability. He's not likely to cast his one or two wizard spells per day too easily with armor.
He's not likely to cast his one or two wizard spells per day too easily with armor.
Unless they're all True Strike. Which, y'know, chances are good.
He's not likely to cast his one or two wizard spells per day too easily with armor.Unless they're all True Strike. Which, y'know, chances are good.
A fair trade for the capstone ability, if it goes that far.
Even if it doesn't, he can't do it all day. He'll eventually have to melee, and be 1 BAB point behind the curve.
Which you can make up for with an extra +1 on your weapon, instead of having to add Throwing and Returning to it.
You can lob a throwing-and-returning weapon ever round no matter what kind of attack routine you're pulling (TWF, run-an-cleave, vital strike, whatever). This is a standard action, which actually makes it kind of crappy for paladins (whose smite bonus generally rewards them for making as many attacks as humanly possible).
It's not a bad move in general though (for instance, if used by a fighter/wizard, or just by a low-level wizard as a backup tactic).
To answer the OP's question, a ray moves in a straight line as per where you point it. It's 100% hand-eye coordination, whether or not it's magical. Strength-bonus to damage is kind of funny, though; apparently he's physically hurling that staff with all his might, and then just using his mind to guide its flight and bring it back.
Which you can make up for with an extra +1 on your weapon, instead of having to add Throwing and Returning to it.
Well, sorta. Your BAB remains one level behind, though, and the number of attacks you get suffers accordingly. You don't get 2 until 7th, now.
You get throwing and returning (both weapon features), for a really unique sword, which only you can use that way. Your melee is forever weakened. With one level of wizard, you can't enchant it, but tossing it now and then is a fair trade, especially at low levels.
With one level of wizard, you can't enchant it
I'm pretty sure you can, actually, once you hit 9th level (Paladin 8) and have the caster level requirement for Craft Magic Arms and Armor. It's arguable as to whether this is RAI, but RAW for bonded item enhancement only requires that you satisfy the feat prerequisites. Heck, you could probably get away with taking Master Craftsman at 5th level.
On the one hand it seems a little cheesy, but on the other it doesn't seem particularly unbalanced. You save a feat, but don't get anything earlier than you otherwise would. (Except with the Master Craftsman method, since you wouldn't be able to take Craft Arms until 7th; but that wins for cool factor, and I'd probably allow it. No retraining it later, tho.)
Technically, you still are throwing your weapon, therefore the STR is still the damage mod, however your guiding it with your mind..not your aim (DEX). Thats why you get your +INT on the to hit.
You are not throwing the weapon at all. In the description you don't even have to move your hands. The idea of making a wizard ability that requires str goes against the entire concept of wizardry.
We now have a wizard ability that is super great as long as you are not a wizard.
|
Technically, you still are throwing your weapon, therefore the STR is still the damage mod, however your guiding it with your mind..not your aim (DEX). Thats why you get your +INT on the to hit.You are not throwing the weapon at all. In the description you don't even have to move your hands. The idea of making a wizard ability that requires str goes against the entire concept of wizardry.
We now have a wizard ability that is super great as long as you are not a wizard.
+1
At the very least, they could have left in the ability to use it as an at-will mage hand, as well. But even that was removed.
It's not a bad move in general though (for instance, if used by a fighter/wizard, or just by a low-level wizard as a backup tactic).
Or a Wizard/Rogue, attacking from a Stealth position... Hmm, I may need to rethink my Elven Rogue build.
It was the casting stat for both damage and attack roll in the Beta. It was deemed too powerful for a level 1 ability. So they scaled it back.
So a single stat for attack and damage is to powerful on a single ability even if it has limited uses a day? What is the excuse for Strength being the modifier for attack and damage in melee attacks.
Why not make warriors have strength for damage and use Wisdom for their to-hit bonus?
The consistent solution would be no attribute bonus to damage, instead using 1/2 your Wizard level.
Seems pretty useful to me. 18INT elven wizard hurling a longsword? Sounds good to me.
It's a horrible ability now. Utterly useless. Just acid splash or ray of frost.
So you have a +4 on your attack roll and have to hit its full AC.
Or have something reasonable like a 14 dex and have +2 to hit its touch AC. And the Longsword (which costs money and a use of a limited class ability, which requires you to be a sub-optimal specialization of wizard) does on average a single point more damage while hitting less often. Nah, I'll pass.
Seems pretty useful to me. 18INT elven wizard hurling a longsword? Sounds good to me.
It's a horrible ability now. Utterly useless. Just acid splash or ray of frost.
So you have a +4 on your attack roll and have to hit its full AC.
Or have something reasonable like a 14 dex and have +2 to hit its touch AC. And the Longsword (which costs money and a use of a limited class ability, which requires you to be a sub-optimal specialization of wizard) does on average a single point more damage while hitting less often. Nah, I'll pass.
sorry. didn't realize that by "utterly useless" you meant "has no place for a fully 100% efficient optimized build" - my bad.
sorry. didn't realize that by "utterly useless" you meant "has no place for a fully 100% efficient optimized build" - my bad.Seems pretty useful to me. 18INT elven wizard hurling a longsword? Sounds good to me.
It's a horrible ability now. Utterly useless. Just acid splash or ray of frost.
So you have a +4 on your attack roll and have to hit its full AC.
Or have something reasonable like a 14 dex and have +2 to hit its touch AC. And the Longsword (which costs money and a use of a limited class ability, which requires you to be a sub-optimal specialization of wizard) does on average a single point more damage while hitting less often. Nah, I'll pass.
By useless I mean that the ability they give you is at best as powerful as what every single wizard gets, but with a limit on castings per day. It's like if you specialized and they said "you can use Detect Magic 7/day". Big whoop, everyone else can use it ad infinitum.
Can you give me a scenario wherein Hand of the Apprentice would be a better option than just Acid Splash/Ray of Frost ing? Remember also that being a ranged attack, attacking an opponent already in melee combat will incur a -4 penalty to attack roll unless you have Precise Shot.
Ray of Frost ing
Mmm. Sounds delicious.
Can you give me a scenario wherein Hand of the Apprentice would be a better option than just Acid Splash/Ray of Frost ing?
Half-orc Wizard 1, elite array to avoid optimization quarrels, bonus to Intelligence.
Str 14Dex 13
Con 12
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 8
Hand of the Apprentice with masterwork greataxe (bonded item, therefore free) -
attack +4, damage 1d12+2 / avg 8.5
Now to be stupidly fair, let's compare that to a full elf conjuror optimized for ranged touch.
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 17
Wis 12
Cha 8
Acid Dart with Point Blank Shot -
Attack +4 touch, damage 1d6+1 / avg 4.5
I think it's pretty solid. The acid dart gains damage automatically as the wizard levels, but the greataxe can (and will) be enchanted. Now that I consider it, getting the Strength bonus at all is just low-level gravy.
In my Sunday game, we have a monk, a wizard and a bard. The wizard, fearing for her own safety, what with savage baboons attacking the village, climbed on the roof in her underwear and used hand of the apprentice with her rapier, before switching to acid splash spam. For the few rounds before she realised Baboons can climb, she near dominated the battlefield (Even moreso than the monk with a battle axe) and is even now looking to invest in a few ranged feats to augment her hand of the apprentice.
She is fairly sub-optimal in build, 12 strength, 16 intelligence with arcane strike as backup, but 1D6+2 (plus the gratuitous +1 damage from the naked Bard's Inspire courage) was more than enough for one hit kills against the monkey madness.
That is, like I said, until she found out how well Baboons can climb >:)
Batts
Half-orc wizards are always proficient with greataxes, dude. Even a humble 1d12+1 will have you out-damaging every other wizard until 3rd level.
Ray of Frost ingMmm. Sounds delicious.
I snickered.
Half-orc wizards are always proficient with greataxes, dude. Even a humble 1d12+1 will have you out-damaging every other wizard until 3rd level.
Not at 30' and using Int to hit. I only used the half-orc to provide a level 1 example; the point is that the power doesn't outright suck.
Also, I hadn't even considered that Arcane Strike applies to that damage...
|
|
Now that it's no longer limited to 5 lbs, as it was in Beta (where a longsword was as good as it got), being able to use heavier weapons opens up some neat options (like that falchion or greataxe using 1/2 Orc, or, for Clerics with the Magic Domain, such as Urgathoa, being able to use the dieties favored weapon, in her case, the scythe).
I miss the damage bonus, 'though. One of my Magic Domain Clerics just used a dagger, since he had a +4 damage and didn't want to be encumbered. Now he needs to carry a morningstar around to come close to the same damage potential.
Can you give me a scenario wherein Hand of the Apprentice would be a better option than just Acid Splash/Ray of Frost ing?Half-orc Wizard 1, elite array to avoid optimization quarrels, bonus to Intelligence.
Str 14
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 8Hand of the Apprentice with masterwork greataxe (bonded item, therefore free) -
attack +4, damage 1d12+2 / avg 8.5Now to be stupidly fair, let's compare that to a full elf conjuror optimized for ranged touch.
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 17
Wis 12
Cha 8Acid Dart with Point Blank Shot -
Attack +4 touch, damage 1d6+1 / avg 4.5I think it's pretty solid. The acid dart gains damage automatically as the wizard levels, but the greataxe can (and will) be enchanted. Now that I consider it, getting the Strength bonus at all is just low-level gravy.
You're calculating average damage on hit. When you figure in that it has to hit the creatures full AC that +4 to hit. Against a basic CR 2 creature, let's say AC 14, you have a 55% chance to hit. Your elf has a 70% chance to hit its touch AC, let's say 11. 4.675 vs. 3.15 average damage. A marginal advantage, when you have a goofy half-orc wizard with a freebie 300+g item (omigosh OP anyone?). Both of which pale in comparison to the guaranteed 3.5 dmg from evocers force missile, if doing damage is your thing.
This is an argument for a different thread, but attempting to do damage at all is still suboptimal. Your human barbarian with the same elite array is doing 2d6+7 each round and quickly outstrips your meager damage.
Well that is completely different then.
Since the wizard is not swinging the weapon there is no reason he needs the weapon proficiency. And since he doesn't have to do anything but have it in his hand it can be pretty much any size he wants.
I say use a large sized great axe 3d6 x3
|
|
Well that is completely different then.
Since the wizard is not swinging the weapon there is no reason he needs the weapon proficiency. And since he doesn't have to do anything but have it in his hand it can be pretty much any size he wants.
I say use a large sized great axe 3d6 x3
In Beta (IIRC) it explicitly required you to be proficient with the weapon.
Now it doesn't say that, but it still requires an attack roll and doesn't state that it allows the wizard to ignore non-proficiency penalties, so I'd suspect that the large sized great-axe using wizard is going to have some hefty penalties...
It does require proficiency ... but it doesn't require the wizard to be able to wield it.
Colossal great axe, here we come!
(note: tongue firmly in cheek)
It does require proficiency ... but it doesn't require the wizard to be able to wield it.
Colossal great axe, here we come!
(note: tongue firmly in cheek)
Best use for Tensor's Floating Disk EVER!
You're calculating average damage on hit. When you figure in that it has to hit the creatures full AC that +4 to hit. Against a basic CR 2 creature, let's say AC 14, you have a 55% chance to hit. Your elf has a 70% chance to hit its touch AC, let's say 11. 4.675 vs. 3.15 average damage. A marginal advantage, when you have a goofy half-orc wizard with a freebie 300+g item (omigosh OP anyone?). Both of which pale in comparison to the guaranteed 3.5 dmg from evocers force missile, if doing damage is your thing.
This is an argument for a different thread, but attempting to do damage at all is still suboptimal. Your human barbarian with the same elite array is doing 2d6+7 each round and quickly outstrips your meager damage.
I should hope a barbarian is outdamaging the wizard with a weapon.
May want to factor crit chance/damage in there too though.
But in the end...you admit the damage is similar. So it's not utterly useless. And when you factor in a freebie item like that - you call it overpowered. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but you really just undercut your whole argument.
You're calculating average damage on hit. When you figure in that it has to hit the creatures full AC that +4 to hit. Against a basic CR 2 creature, let's say AC 14, you have a 55% chance to hit. Your elf has a 70% chance to hit its touch AC, let's say 11. 4.675 vs. 3.15 average damage. A marginal advantage, when you have a goofy half-orc wizard with a freebie 300+g item (omigosh OP anyone?). Both of which pale in comparison to the guaranteed 3.5 dmg from evocers force missile, if doing damage is your thing.
This is an argument for a different thread, but attempting to do damage at all is still suboptimal. Your human barbarian with the same elite array is doing 2d6+7 each round and quickly outstrips your meager damage.
I should hope a barbarian is outdamaging the wizard with a weapon.
May want to factor crit chance/damage in there too though.
But in the end...you admit the damage is similar. So it's not utterly useless. And when you factor in a freebie item like that - you call it overpowered. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but you really just undercut your whole argument.
not really. i admit that IF you play a HALF ORC wizard, with a 14 strength, and a GREAT AXE as a BONDED ITEM(already this is a pretty ludicrous suggestion) that 6 times per day you will be able to do barely more than someone that just prepared ray of frost. sounds like a horrible idea to me. but you go ahead and play a bad wizard.
sounds kinda badass to me. Wounder if ya could count that great axe as a staff...hummmm
not really. i admit that IF you play a HALF ORC wizard, with a 14 strength, and a GREAT AXE as a BONDED ITEM(already this is a pretty ludicrous suggestion) that 6 times per day you will be able to do barely more than someone that just prepared ray of frost. sounds like a horrible idea to me. but you go ahead and play a bad wizard.
Actually, it's "barely" (~48%) more than someone who has a class ability dealing 1d6 plus a feat (note that the half-orc didn't spend one) to optimize it with +1 to hit and damage plus a race which gives a +1 bonus to hit with rays (+2 Dex). I was comparing apples to applies: two specialists attempting to make good use of their school powers. It blows Ray of Frost out of the water.
So what the heck, let's do a "realistic" (i.e. deliberately deoptimized) example.
Half-elf wizard.
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 17
Wil 13
Cha 8
Let's pick some irrelevant feat, say Toughness. And he'll use a club. And he has a familiar.
+3 attack, 1d6 damage. You estimated +4 attack was a 55% hit chance against non-touch AC, so I'll go with that; now it's 50%. Multiply by 3.5 base average, and you've got a final average of 1.75.
What does Ray of Frost do? 1d3 averages 2 damage. With a +2 to hit and your above assertion that it would be 70% at +4, his average is dropped to 60% or 1.2 damage.
If he was an elf he'd have another +1 to hit with the ray of frost... but he'd also have a longsword, for an extra base point and a wider crit range.
Note that this wizard, despite his high Intelligence, is apparently retarded. He has an ability which can benefit from a better weapon, but makes no effort to learn to use one; it can benefit from higher Strength, but he doesn't work out; it can benefit from Arcane Strike or Point Blank Shot, but he has taken neither. And it's still a superior option to the cantrip, by about 45% on average.
In fact, even if he drops down to a dagger there's a marginal edge; do the math yourself. If you're a Small wizard with a Strength penalty and no other weapon proficiencies, yes, you've finally found a situation where this class ability is inferior to the other options.
Meanwhile, you're not paying double slots for two schools' worth of spells.
|
|
Note that this wizard, despite his high Intelligence, is apparently retarded. He has an ability which can benefit from a better weapon, but makes no effort to learn to use one; it can benefit from higher Strength, but he doesn't work out; it can benefit from Arcane Strike or Point Blank Shot, but he has taken neither. And it's still a superior option to the cantrip, by about 45% on average.
I don't know, for me, a universalist wizard ability that almost requires that wizard to have a 12+ Strength and martial weapon proficiency to get some use out of, just isn't that great of an ability. Playing the classic frail human wizard now means being a specialist, or accepting that you'll rarely, if ever, use HoA.
not really. i admit that IF you play a HALF ORC wizard, with a 14 strength, and a GREAT AXE as a BONDED ITEM(already this is a pretty ludicrous suggestion) that 6 times per day you will be able to do barely more than someone that just prepared ray of frost. sounds like a horrible idea to me. but you go ahead and play a bad wizard.
So what i'm getting from your argument is this:
in 100% optimized cases, all abilities should be equal.
there is no place for discussion of non-optimized cases.
frankly, i like that there are things that work out better in non-optimized cases - gives some flexibility to actually coming up with story-based role-playable characters.
not really. i admit that IF you play a HALF ORC wizard, with a 14 strength, and a GREAT AXE as a BONDED ITEM(already this is a pretty ludicrous suggestion) that 6 times per day you will be able to do barely more than someone that just prepared ray of frost. sounds like a horrible idea to me. but you go ahead and play a bad wizard.Actually, it's "barely" (~48%) more than someone who has a class ability dealing 1d6 plus a feat (note that the half-orc didn't spend one) to optimize it with +1 to hit and damage plus a race which gives a +1 bonus to hit with rays (+2 Dex). I was comparing apples to applies: two specialists attempting to make good use of their school powers. It blows Ray of Frost out of the water.
So what the heck, let's do a "realistic" (i.e. deliberately deoptimized) example.
Half-elf wizard.
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 17
Wil 13
Cha 8
Let's pick some irrelevant feat, say Toughness. And he'll use a club. And he has a familiar.+3 attack, 1d6 damage. You estimated +4 attack was a 55% hit chance against non-touch AC, so I'll go with that; now it's 50%. Multiply by 3.5 base average, and you've got a final average of 1.75.
What does Ray of Frost do? 1d3 averages 2 damage. With a +2 to hit and your above assertion that it would be 70% at +4, his average is dropped to 60% or 1.2 damage.
If he was an elf he'd have another +1 to hit with the ray of frost... but he'd also have a longsword, for an extra base point and a wider crit range.
Note that this wizard, despite his high Intelligence, is apparently retarded. He has an ability which can benefit from a better weapon, but makes no effort to learn to use one; it can benefit from higher Strength, but he doesn't work out; it can benefit from Arcane Strike or Point Blank Shot, but he has taken neither. And it's still a superior option to the cantrip, by about 45% on average.
In fact, even...
You keep trying to do damage as a wizard. You're bad.
It's really quite stupid the way it's set up now. In beta it made sense and worked great as it was. Now it just makes no sense at all. Ok so he throws it with his biceps and guides it with his mind, by that logic why not let him guide a crossbow bolt, a arrow, or a balista bolt with his mind? Why not let a strong summoned creature throw it next too him. It's dumb, if your mind his guiding it around telekentically it the damage should be based off your mind as well as it's accuracy. Telekenisis isn't based off your STR neither should this version of it.