I'd like some advice.
Now crafting items doesn't come with an XP cost.
So if my Cleric pick Craft Magic Arms and Armor, should he do the job for free if the rogue or anyone else in the group wants his +1 sword made +2?
The way things are now we don't split the cash. We have what can be described as a guild account. If anyone in the group needs something he gets it if we can afford it. If the group needs anything, like a wand of CLW we buy it.
Help anyone?
Well, that's entirely up to your cleric... but look at it this way, do you think the rogue should charge the group for using his skills?
And if you already pool your monetary funds, wouldn't the fee your thinking of charging go straight back into the pool anyway?
I was thinking it is time we split the pool. Or at least just have small pool in case we need to get a wand of CLW or pay for Service, Transport, Inn stay, etc.
It's a bit boring to take a craft feat and let the rest of the group have all the good stuff because they do the tanking or damage or whatever. My cleric is not a CoDzilla so there is a chance the Rogue, the tank and the archer want all the good weapons and armor because they do damage.Sooner or later someone will ask:
- should we really take from the pool to make your armor +3 when the tank needs a +3 armor. Or:
- should we really take from the pool to make your weapon +3 when the archer needs a +2 flaming bow?
We also have a NPC bard. I was thinking she pick craft wand. She can really use a bit extra cash since we already wasted two NPC:s.
It's real easy to abuse a NPC. Wait to heal them last in a fight, don't spend as much cash on them as on a PC, etc. I'm not saying it's intentional but it does seem to happen.
The Cleric needs to decide for himself whether he wants to create stuff at cost (i.e. the guy who gets the item pays for the materials) or whether he'll charge for his service.
It is mostly a character question. Is he good? Neutral? Evil? Chaotic? Lawful? What deity does he worship?
Personally, I think I wouldn't charge my companions for this service - I don't charge them for cure spells, either.
But as with everything else, I wouldn't turn my cleric into a cohort NPC others control. My considerations would, of course, include what would be best for the party as a whole, but there'd be a healthy dose of enlightened self-interest in there, too.
Meaning: I want to improve my magic scimitar or mace or whatever it is my cleric uses, so chances are I'd do that before I'd do other people's items. If there's time afterwards to do some of their stuff, too, then great. I won't beggar myself and run around with a masterwork weapon or buy my +3 sword so the others can have +5 vorpal swords, daggers, and matching cutlery to really dig into that dinner.
In some cases, like when we really depend on the party fighter to go toe to toe with the enemy to cut him to pieces, I might do his greatsword before I do my weapon, as it is best for the party.
If other characters want their stuff faster, they can always get the feats themselves.
So it's not a black-and-white question, it's all about priorities and circumstance.
I'd like some advice.
Now crafting items doesn't come with an XP cost.
So if my Cleric pick Craft Magic Arms and Armor, should he do the job for free if the rogue or anyone else in the group wants his +1 sword made +2?The way things are now we don't split the cash. We have what can be described as a guild account. If anyone in the group needs something he gets it if we can afford it. If the group needs anything, like a wand of CLW we buy it.
Help anyone?
As others have mentioned, it depends to some extend on group dynamics and on what else is going on in your world/campaign.
In the group that I am currently GMing for, they split the treasure into separate pools, one for each character and one of the group pool.
The non-crafting players pay for the costs of the gear that they want enchanted, plus usually about 10% extra, to pay for the crafter's time. They all have other interests besides just adventuring, so paying a fee to those crafting for them seems to be reasonable.
The negotiations between the characters can be fun, when they would prefer to have their item enchanted/enhanced first. All kinds of role playing opportunities.
Thanx for all the feedback. As KaeYoss put it: "it's not a black-and-white question".
I guess it's time that we too "split the treasure into separate pools, one for each character and one of the group pool."
This way my cleric don't have to beg for money when he wants to create something for himself and the others don't have to pay him when they want his help.
On the other hand I don't want to "turn my cleric into a cohort NPC".
He could humbly ask for a 'voluntary contribution'. If the same characters again and again don't leave any contributions he might be reluctant to help them out....immediately. They might have to wait until he find the time and peace he needs. It opens up to role playing opportunities.
I'd like some advice.
Now crafting items doesn't come with an XP cost.
So if my Cleric pick Craft Magic Arms and Armor, should he do the job for free if the rogue or anyone else in the group wants his +1 sword made +2?
This has always been a point of contention in many of the groups I played with. Right up there with PC clerics 'charging' for healing.
I always ask does the Barbarian charge for using his Rage ability? Does the rogue charge for opening chests? Now that there isn't an XP cost for item creation, I don't see why a PC item creator shouldn't help out (if time allows).
The way things are now we don't split the cash. We have what can be described as a guild account. If anyone in the group needs something he gets it if we can afford it. If the group needs anything, like a wand of CLW we buy it.
I've never been a big fan of joint savings. If you play with a bunch of generous and fair players, you end up with a lot of cash sitting around because no one wants to use the gold. Where if they each had a separate account, they tend not to worry about other players feeling they are hogging the gold.
If on the other hand you play with a group of greedy CN jerks, there will never be any gold in the fund when you need a resurrection.
I'd like some advice.
Now crafting items doesn't come with an XP cost.
So if my Cleric pick Craft Magic Arms and Armor, should he do the job for free if the rogue or anyone else in the group wants his +1 sword made +2?This has always been a point of contention in many of the groups I played with. Right up there with PC clerics 'charging' for healing.
I always ask does the Barbarian charge for using his Rage ability? Does the rogue charge for opening chests? Now that there isn't an XP cost for item creation, I don't see why a PC item creator shouldn't help out (if time allows).
My PC would never charge for healing. Nor would I charge for holy smite or flamestrike or resist energy. Comparing 'charging' for spells and 'charging' for item creation is not a valid comparison.
We are talking about a spending a feat. A feat noone wants to pick, but they all love it if someone else pick it. A feat all characters can take, the paladin, the Ranger and even the rogue can take the feat (if he has the Master Craftsman feat). But nobody, except the rogue funny enough, has showed any thougts on picking an item creation feat. Leave that to the cleric or the NPC bard.Charging is not a matter of gread, I just don't like other characters taking a free ride. Also, what would the Craftsmen Guild say about price dumping.
I've never been a big fan of joint savings. If you play with a bunch of generous and fair players, you end up with a lot of cash sitting around because no one wants to use the gold. Where if they each had a separate account, they tend not to worry about other players feeling they are hogging the gold.
If on the other hand you play with a group of greedy CN jerks, there will never be any gold in the fund when you need a resurrection.
Very good points. However, I feel joint savings is a good thing at lower levels.
Well, that's entirely up to your cleric... but look at it this way, do you think the rogue should charge the group for using his skills?
And if you already pool your monetary funds, wouldn't the fee your thinking of charging go straight back into the pool anyway?
I was thinking it is time we split the pool. Or at least just have small pool in case we need to get a wand of CLW or pay for Service, Transport, Inn stay, etc.
It's a bit boring to take a craft feat and let the rest of the group have all the good stuff because they do the tanking or damage or whatever. My cleric is not a CoDzilla so there is a chance the Rogue, the tank and the archer want all the good weapons and armor because they do damage.
Sooner or later someone will ask:
- should we really take from the pool to make your armor +3 when the tank needs a +3 armor. Or:
- should we really take from the pool to make your weapon +3 when the archer needs a +2 flaming bow?We also have a NPC bard. I was thinking she pick craft wand. She can really use a bit extra cash since we already wasted two NPC:s.
It's real easy to abuse a NPC. Wait to heal them last in a fight, don't spend as much cash on them as on a PC, etc. I'm not saying it's intentional but it does seem to happen.
Split the money. It works out better in the long run. Otherwise some characters end up benefitting far more than others from the "pooled funds". If you want to have a joint fund to cover basic expenses have everyone contribute a small percentage to cover inns, food, etc. Charge for crafting, you've spent the feat they can spend the money. If you chose to help out a party member (with cash or crafting) it should be seen in the light of friendship (or self interest, depending) not as a requirement. Give them a discount. It's a better deal than the NPC they would otherwise be paying will give them. Have the group sign a company charter to cover the rules on it if there are questions / problems.
As for NPCs getting the short end of it, it's largely up to your DM to make sure they don't. They should demand equal treatment or walk away (unless they enjoy the abuse, which is unlikely, or feel constrained by other factors). If a PC wouldn't put up with it, an NPC shouldn't, that's my general rule as a DM. NPCs should be involved, opinionated, and as "alive" as any PC. They should have their own goals too. The NPCs in my players group do, and I don't think any of the PCs could imagine it any other way. I've got a really good group of players and, to them, the NPCs are as big a part of the group as they are.
My 2 cp.
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usually, my party makes magic items for each other at half the creation cost, making "mates rates" a beneficial factor for the purchasee.
although, there are always some esceptions to the rule, an example i have come across, was a LN Wizard from the Acadamae of Varisia, they were required (me being the DM and making this stipulation) to sell anything they made at normal market cost price, but had to donate 10% of the sales back to the Acadamae.
Peebo :D
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May be the cleric could decide, and I think that qould be perfectly in line with RP, that the cleric (you then ?) can make magic items for other players for some kind of donation to the temple.
After all it's only because "the mighty god of (choose whatever god you want) grants power to his humble servants that the fighter gets his +5 coutelry". May be this service could mean a donation, as a "juste retour".
Item creation's biggest costs are the feat used up but there is also the time.
Item creation means that the artificer will be working for other people during the downtime between adventures. While the rogue is out picking pockets and getting drunk the cleric is slaving over a hot alter.
It is realy a RP question. If the cleric wants to make items for the party and doesn't need/want payment then fine. If the cleric wants to be paid for his time and skills then the rogue can either cough up the cash or see what deal he gets from an NPC artificer.
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My PC is the party mad scientist too. He makes wondrous items and arms and armour for the party during down time. All he asks for is the cost of materials. It's good for party unity and sometimes the other characters chip in a few extra gold for my "special projects". I don't believe in profiting from party members...it's almost like spending the gold twice IMO.
After the dropping of XP costs, my groups generally decided to charge 60% of market price, giving the crafter a 10% "tip" (or 20% over cost). This works extra well as most of the party has an item creation feat.
With a grouped pool of money (and friendly players) I wouldn't see a need to charge extra - but in a group where it's one player's "burden" to craft, you probably should split out the pool (or leave the pool but start splitting incoming gold). Without your own gold to use on the feat, it's purely charity to take the feat for the group.
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Minor threadjack: I can't find anything in the rules that says you can't take 10 on item creation spellcraft rolls. Am I missing the rule, or can you?
The rules for taking 10 say you can take the average roll for routine skill checks if you're not in danger or threatened. A place for creating items is supposed to be quiet and free of distraction, so taking 10 there would make sense to me. Crafting while adventuring is another story though...
I think (as always) that this should be the subject of good roleplaying. As mentioned before, a lot of this will have to do with the alignments involved, but also the personalities.
Are these just adventurers forced together for profits' sake, or are they a group who are united against a common foe...or even better a group who, through adversity, have become friends.
It could be as simple as "Hey Reticular, in our last fight, you looked like you could use magical help, let me borrow your sword for a few days and I'll see if my deity will let me add some divine fire to it." Or "Hey Merlin, I could go toe to toe with more monsters and protect your scrawny magic butt a bit better if my armor were enhanced." Or whatever the group dynamic is.
I think as long as the recipient pays for the raw materials, it should be up to the enchanter as to whether or not to charge more. However, the "does a rogue charge to open chests) is very applicable as well.
In my games, the party normally divides loot by (number of character, including NPCs, +1) with the extra share going into a party fund to cover group things like taxes, fines, cost of living, and getting the gnome ressurected. If someone wants to dip into the party fund, its normally allowed and they pay it back with the next treasure split.
Magic items are normally divided up based on who can use them the most and who needs a good item in that category. Normally, the squabbles are over the unique, mundane stuff or the non-game mechanic stuff (They all want the beholder hand puppet or the magic brooch that prevents B.O.)
Enchanting/ making things just happens to be part of that...the rogue will pickpocket to get money to buy the raw materials so the wizard can give the fighter ghost touch on his sword...
Then they all follow the bard to the bar for a drink.
So, the two questions are really:
1) Does it make a difference to you, the GM?
and
2)How team oriented are the players.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Suggestion for the OP:
You're a servant of your deity, not a servant of your compatriots. If Tom the Rogue says he'd like a magic dagger, and you're worried that Tom's morals have been traveling a little eastward into chaos lately and might offen your Laful Good goddess, craft a +1 Axiomatic dagger for him. If the creepy necromancer wants a magic staff, craft a +1 staff of disruption, undead bane for her.
Each with your god's motto inscribed along the length of the weapon.
In my group's case, the bard is the item crafter and does not perform in public. Master spy and mad scientist, not folk singer. :)
Then they all follow the bard to the bar for a drink.
LOL...great!
But does he still know where to drink?
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In my group's case, the bard is the item crafter and does not perform in public. Master spy and mad scientist, not folk singer. :)
Then they all follow the bard to the bar for a drink.
LOL...great!
But does he still know where to drink?
The loremaster class feature is very useful. He can take 20 1/day on any knowledge check, so a 34 on knowledge:local can tell you where all the "best" establishments are. :)
I'd like some advice.
Now crafting items doesn't come with an XP cost.
So if my Cleric pick Craft Magic Arms and Armor, should he do the job for free if the rogue or anyone else in the group wants his +1 sword made +2?The way things are now we don't split the cash. We have what can be described as a guild account. If anyone in the group needs something he gets it if we can afford it. If the group needs anything, like a wand of CLW we buy it.
Help anyone?
I think it would heavily depend on the relationship your character has with them.
In a group were others are also taking item creation feats I can see no charging at all. In one were everyone is prefectly in agreement and working towards shared goals all the time, then no charge would make sense. If you are just a group that gets together from time to time it might make sense you charge them. Either way becareful you don't want to end up being the only one grabbing feats that help everyone else out. If no one else is taking these feats and you find mroe and more demands on your time making things for them, I would talk to them about it.
Thanks all of you. I didn't expect this kind of a response.
As things turned out yesterday I made the group an offer they couldn't resist. I said:
- If we split the pooled funds I take the craft feat.
Someone said "we could still keep the the pool". "The pool will be no problem" since "Those in need will get what they ask for...if they need it".
My point was:
- "That's what I'm afraid of". The buff cleric and the buffing bard doesn't need a flaming sword. But the rogue and the tank does.
I don't like the idea that my cleric should only make stuff to those who need it. Why not make somthing because he wants it? The concept of "if you need it you will get it, if you don't, you won't" sounds a bit like the economy of the Soviet Union.
So my point to the group was:
- This way everyone can save money to something that he think is funny, even if the others in the group think "the group" doesn't need it.
They gave in.
May be the cleric could decide, and I think that qould be perfectly in line with RP, that the cleric (you then ?) can make magic items for other players for some kind of donation to the temple.
After all it's only because "the mighty god of (choose whatever god you want) grants power to his humble servants that the fighter gets his +5 coutelry". May be this service could mean a donation, as a "juste retour".
Yes. My Cleric will ask for a donantion. He will ask for it but he won't demand it.
Item creation's biggest costs are the feat used up but there is also the time.
Item creation means that the artificer will be working for other people during the downtime between adventures. While the rogue is out picking pockets and getting drunk the cleric is slaving over a hot alter.
It is realy a RP question. [...]
I will remember this. It could actually help the Roleplaying in our group. We need more of it..or should I say: we need it.
This could actually help.
stuff
Thanks for the feed back.
Again: The cleric does not charge to cast cure spells or heal or remove poisions or huse the heal skill or use diplomacy.So "does a rogue charge to open chests) is NOT very applicable.
Open lock is a class feature (a skill) it's not a feat. A rogue get 8 skill points per level a cleric does not get 8 feats per level.
The minute a party member offers to profit from using his skills or abilities to enhance our chances for survival, that's the minute I tell him to reconsider that attitude or I will reconsider keeping him as a party member.
It's all or nothing.
We *all* go out there and risk our lives. We all survive together, or we all die together.
If a party member asks me to do something I am capable of doing, I do it. Sure, I won't do something that is stupid, or that hurts us. And if I think there is a better solution, I will offer that as an alternative. Otherwise, I do what is asked of me, no questions asked, no fees rendered.
I expect the same in return.
So if anyone, myself included, has the ability to make magical items that will benefit us by enhancing our survivability, then I would expect that person to contribute, even if it's me, without asking for payment in return.
Making magic items should not cost the crafter, so the party, or the individual, should be the one to cover material costs.
Not all magic items are created equal. So the crafter can and should be the final say on which item to create first, second, and last. We may not have funds for everything we want, or time, so first we should make the thing we need the most. If that's the cleric's mace, or the fighter's sword, or the wizard's dagger, then so be it - hopefully we'll all see eye-to-eye on what benefits *us* the most.
But I reiterate. If that party member insists on personal profit to contribute to the group, then he's gone. Or I'm gone.
And I mean that in a RP/Character sense. Once that player rolls up a new character who isn't so selfish or greedy, I as a player will have no grudge against that player or his new character.
However, if the crafter insists on profit, and the rest of the party decides not to expel the crafter, then my character will walk - he will go find a party that actually wants to survive. But then the problem is tha so will my next character, and the next one... So I would probably find a different group of players, since I don't imagine I would be comfortable playing a character so inept that he accepts profiteering by his fellow adventurers.
Then again, I guess that's me.
And I would do the same in the real world, too. My friends ask to borrow my truck when they're moving, I don't charge them a fee - just that they replace the gas they use (material cost). I fix their PCs, help them with software problems, and generally lend my skills when they ask. For free. And they do the same for me. And I don't think I would be friends for long with someone who wants me to pay a fee for them to help me when I'm more than willing to help them endlessly for free. Fortunately, it's never come up.
DM_Blake, I think you're missing the point. This isn't about helping the party vs. being selfish, it's about some people making excess use of party funds / the crafters time because "they need it". People always "need" something. Does the crafter need something? Should he put off his own projects (crafting or other) to push out magic items for the party? Should he be the party's unpaid labor while they go off and do whatever they feel like (tavern hopping, pick pocketing, gambling, training, hanging out with their friends)? It's about unequal contribution, not petty profit. Dividing funds keeps the "needy", and often loud, from dominating the party's resources. Charging them (even with a hefty discount, tells them that the crafter's time is worth some recompense. If he's sacrificing his time to make items for the whole party he deserves some aknowledgement of his contribution. Found magic should go to those most able to use it, but a character, PC or NPC, has some right to their own time. NPCs are particularly vulnerable to the "giving everything for the party syndrome", often getting little, or less, in return. Neither PCs nor NPCs should put up with it.
Of course if everyone is beavering away for the party, that alters things. Most often though, not everyone is investing their characters valuable feats, time and resources into things that will benefit all party members equally...
As for adventure, yeah, it's one for all and all for one there. Being metaphorically chained to a work bench in town and going without for everyone elses benefit is not part of the deal.
The minute a party member offers to profit from using his skills or abilities to enhance our chances for survival, that's the minute I tell him to reconsider that attitude or I will reconsider keeping him as a party member.
It's all or nothing.
We *all* go out there and risk our lives. We all survive together, or we all die together.
If a party member asks me to do something I am capable of doing, I do it. Sure, I won't do something that is stupid, or that hurts us. And if I think there is a better solution, I will offer that as an alternative. Otherwise, I do what is asked of me, no questions asked, no fees rendered.
I expect the same in return.
So if anyone, myself included, has the ability to make magical items that will benefit us by enhancing our survivability, then I would expect that person to contribute, even if it's me, without asking for payment in return.
Making magic items should not cost the crafter, so the party, or the individual, should be the one to cover material costs.
Not all magic items are created equal. So the crafter can and should be the final say on which item to create first, second, and last. We may not have funds for everything we want, or time, so first we should make the thing we need the most. If that's the cleric's mace, or the fighter's sword, or the wizard's dagger, then so be it - hopefully we'll all see eye-to-eye on what benefits *us* the most.
But I reiterate. If that party member insists on personal profit to contribute to the group, then he's gone. Or I'm gone.
And I mean that in a RP/Character sense. Once that player rolls up a new character who isn't so selfish or greedy, I as a player will have no grudge against that player or his new character.
However, if the crafter insists on profit, and the rest of the party decides not to expel the crafter, then my character will walk - he will go find a party that actually wants to survive. But then the problem is tha so will my next character, and the next one... So I would probably find a...
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I'd add that the characters asking for/surtaxing a donation would be fine by me as a player, as long as they were honest about it.
By honest I mean.
- Cleric/Paladin/Ranger/Druid asking for donations to the temple, actually donating to the temple. (Actually anyone offering to donate to a deity out of a sense of duty)
- Other casters using it to pay for their workplace/lab/etc.
- In Shad's case, he'd have taken the 'donation' for his home/orphanage. (For a LE guy, he likes kids)
- To cover taxes/tarrifs/fees/bribes. (Why yes, Mr. Hellknight, I'm making a Holy Avenger for my friend, here's all the permits I need)
As a neutral party (GM) I'd expect the player who's factoring in the 'service charge' to be honest why. or I'd sit back and be amused when the other players find out that that 'donation to the temple' was spent on hookers and blow. (Well unless the temple was to Cayden, then it might be the same thing.)
The minute a party member offers to profit from using his skills or abilities to enhance our chances for survival, that's the minute I tell him to reconsider that attitude or I will reconsider keeping him as a party member.
It's all or nothing.
We *all* go out there and risk our lives. We all survive together, or we all die together.
Pre-Pathfinder did you expect a cleric with craft arms and armor to make weapons and armor for your fighter for cost? How exactly are you compensating him for his spent XP?
Now post pathfinder it would depend on the campaigne. In one were the party is always the same people, always working toward the same goals, sure. I can see your point.
But in most of the long running games I play in the party isn't one block of people who travel together, live together, and stay nearby at all times. Characters have many off hours responsiblities, building hospitals, building temples, building wizard schools, holding a government office, traveling the globe for whatever reason solo. And the DM runs these events solo or with NPC allies, or maybe a limited selection of other PCs.
In those games the if Horgan the Fighter from the south that travels with my cleric from time to time shows up at my temple with the gold to make a +5 dragon bane sword to slay the great green who is ravaging the south I will turn him down. At any price I will not make him that weapon. First my guy's church has strict rules reguarding selling magic items to foreigners. Second the great green isn't something I am involved with and don't want to become involved with. Third I have many draconic allies who Horgan is not a fan of and I would not give him a weapon against my friends. (did I mention my title is the Dragon.....mind you my guy is not a dragon but he is on good terms with a number of dragons) When we face the great enemy in the east that we as a group have been readying ourselves for, I will make him a sword that fullfils his needs there per his request, but for his personal missions, he's on his own unless it's simple or not really dangerous. If he needs a wand of cure light, sure, anytime and he knows it. I made him a cloak of resistance, not only at cost but for free because I want him safe after all he's a friend. But we do disagree on topics and in those situations he understands my stance and wouldn't even ask for me to make that sword. I enjoy these games because the character interaction isn't always straight forward, we do rush to aid each other when one of us gets in trouble, but we don't always rush to make sure we complete personal missions. For a while there my guy was legally not allowed in their country because of the hostilities. But my group knew I was doing my best to bring peace, and so they support me even if they were ready to go to war with my country. But because of this they also did not ask me to help them arm up for the war, that would be treason on my part to do so. RP will determine whether or not you will be making items at cost, for profit, or not at all. That doesn't always mean someone is being cheap or trying to rip you off.
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The minute a party member offers to profit from using his skills or abilities to enhance our chances for survival, that's the minute I tell him to reconsider that attitude or I will reconsider keeping him as a party member.
It's all or nothing.
I disagree with this.
I would not let party members charge one another for the roles that they play "while adventuring". When you are in the the dungeon (Or wherever else) that petty stuff should not come up.
But I have a player who sacrificed a feat that could have been spent on something that is valuable in combat to make magical items for the group, then I do not have a problem with them asking for a fee as long as it is in the spirit of the flavor of the game.
The character with the crafting feats will likely sit out on a lot of enjoyable RP sessions that are happening while they are crafting.
They sacrificed a feat to get the ability to do it that could have been spent to make their character more effective.
And even if the character with the creation feat charges 10-20% on top of cost, the player paying for it still gets a 30-40% discount to what they would be paying if the crafter had not taken feats for the good of the group. This allows for the party to have a 30-40% increase in gear.
As a final point. How would a fighter with no experience whatsoever in magical item crafting know what it costs to make an item? That is some fairly clear cut metagaming.
Now I have personally played crafters in the past, and I did not typically charge for easy to make items (like most consumables that could be made in a day or less). But I have no issue asking for a cut on a big item that will take my character out of noncombat play for weeks.
PFRPG has fixed the caster only crafter problem. So if the fighter's player has issue with paying my cleric a small cut of of the gold to get a 30-40% discount, then by all means they can now spend their own valuable feats on crafting as well, and they can do it for free in the party if they like. Would not hurt my feelings one bit.
If it got to the point where the party was trying to charge me for opening a door or fighting up front because I would not make an item for them free of charge, would be about the time I ask to the DM to swap out the item creation feat for something else, or just retire the character all together, and make something that does not craft magic items.
love,
malkav
The minute a party member offers to profit from using his skills or abilities to enhance our chances for survival, that's the minute I tell him to reconsider that attitude or I will reconsider keeping him as a party member.
It's all or nothing.
We *all* go out there and risk our lives. We all survive together, or we all die together.
Have you read my posts? I agree. Greedy charavters are not nice, but who is proffiting from whom? Who is selfish and greedy?
The tank want all the good stuff and the other "DPS" characters, they don't care if the cleric and the NPC die, because:I'm not saying our party or that our players work that way, but neither the cleric nor the NPC bard has any good stuff (Well the cleric has a good spear no one needs). Our group has already wasted two NPC:s.and the players wasn't to keen on splitting the party funds. And as I pointed out before. Both the Paladin and the Ranger can take Item Creation Feats and creat good stuff, with the aid of the bard and cleric. But they don't want to.
who is then selfish and greedy?.
Anyway, I think it worked out well for us and I hope it will work out for our characters too.
I think R_Chance formulated it well.
This isn't about helping the party vs. being selfish, it's about some people making excess use of party funds / the crafters time because "they need it". People always "need" something. Does the crafter need something? Should he put off his own projects (crafting or other) to push out magic items for the party? Should he be the party's unpaid labor while they go off and do whatever they feel like (tavern hopping, pick pocketing, gambling, training, hanging out with their friends)? It's about unequal contribution, not petty profit. Dividing funds keeps the "needy", and often loud, from dominating the party's resources.
I also think the points made by Matthew Morris are valid and good ones.
My cleric wouldn't ask for a donation out of greed. Asking for a donation to help building a temple isn't greed.|
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I'm not sure I agree fully with the idea that you're 'sacrificing' a feat on item creation for th benefit of the party any more that any other feat... even power attack or similar feats benefit the entire party - everybody is better off if the enemies are defeated more quickly, just like everyone is better off if you have access to cheaper magical items.
As for charging for time... If it's ok to charge for the time spent crafting items, why not charge for the time the bard spends gathering information, or the wizard spends researching the villain's plans?
I'd add that the characters asking for/surtaxing a donation would be fine by me as a player, as long as they were honest about it.
By honest I mean.
- Cleric/Paladin/Ranger/Druid asking for donations to the temple, actually donating to the temple. (Actually anyone offering to donate to a deity out of a sense of duty)
- Other casters using it to pay for their workplace/lab/etc.
- In Shad's case, he'd have taken the 'donation' for his home/orphanage. (For a LE guy, he likes kids)
- To cover taxes/tarrifs/fees/bribes. (Why yes, Mr. Hellknight, I'm making a Holy Avenger for my friend, here's all the permits I need)
As a neutral party (GM) I'd expect the player who's factoring in the 'service charge' to be honest why. or I'd sit back and be amused when the other players find out that that 'donation to the temple' was spent on hookers and blow. (Well unless the temple was to Cayden, then it might be the same thing.)
As a player I would have no problem with any of that. Some of my characters would be more than willing to support an orphanage. Most of my characters would carefully consider the temple donation and most of them wouldn't do it if they had little respect for that particular temple (but most of my characters don't travel with clerics of religions they don't tolerate anyway). Few of my characters would support financing the crafter's lab, though, since they would be busy financing other things, like the castle where that lab is located. And most of my characters would gladly pay those taxes as just part of the crafting cost, or would seek to circumvent paying them at all.
In response to the metagaming, if I'm playing the fighter and the crafter tells me my weapon will cost 4,000 gold, I'll trust him and pay it - unless I already think he's untrustworthy, in which case I might just pay it then go find someone in town who makes similar things and strike up a conversation about how I'm thinking about commissioning an item. Bad news if the NPC gives me a price that is significantly lower than my untrustworthy companion...
No metagaming at all.
In response to those who say the whole party should do it, I tend to agree. No reason the fighter can't drop a feat on crafting weapons, the rogue might do wondrous items, etc.
All the party casters have to do to help them is provide a spell once each morning, then they can go back to working on their staves, wands, or whatever.
The party spends a couple weeks in town, and makes a half dozen shiny new toys. And hey, they might not each be working on their own items. Maybe that fighter is making a mace for the cleric and the cleric is making a magical ring for the fighter. It's all good.
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I agree with DM Blake. PC A takes feats to excel in battle to be useful to the party. PC B takes feats to create items and is thus a bit less useful in battle, thus compensates by producing magic items at a lower cost.
Period. No ifs, butts, or donation crap. PRODUCE! [whips the item creator vigorously and bellows a laughter worthy of a drunken dwarf!]
I'm not sure I agree fully with the idea that you're 'sacrificing' a feat on item creation for th benefit of the party any more that any other feat... even power attack or similar feats benefit the entire party - everybody is better off if the enemies are defeated more quickly, just like everyone is better off if you have access to cheaper magical items.
As for charging for time... If it's ok to charge for the time spent crafting items, why not charge for the time the bard spends gathering information, or the wizard spends researching the villain's plans?
So a feat is a feat is a feat? I don't agree. That's just rhetoric.
charging for time? I'm not sure it's right to do it.I would still say I'm not falling for the
- "it all for the good of the group, if you help me. So you really aren't helping me, you are helping the group. Or to be frank. You are helping yourselp since you are a part of the group"
This kind of argumnet sounds like something Groucho Marx or a dictator would say.
Charge for the time the bard spends gathering information, or the wizard spends researching the villain's plans is not the same as putting somemone into labour because YOU want them to craft YOU something.
Let's say the group is traped in a magical prison and the only thing that would set them free would be the raw power of creating a magical item for 8 hours. Would my cleric charge anything for the time? No.
Would he charge anythingh for Long-Term Care using the heal skill? Even if it took 8 hours or more? No...and Long-Term Care sure is a lot of work. I know.
If the others in the group think we need our homebased Hallowed? ...casting time 24 hours. Would the charge them for the time. No.
If my cleric asked the NPC to cast Haste so he could craft a fullplate of speed, the NPC could ask for a donation. The Cleric would not be upset, nor would I
Let's be honest here. There is an element of metagaming here.
xxx skill points per level vs. 1 feat per two levels.
A spell vs. a feat.
a feat vs. a feat.
And honestly, some players never learn.
As a neutral party (GM) I'd expect the player who's factoring in the 'service charge' to be honest why. or I'd sit back and be amused when the other players find out that that 'donation to the temple' was spent on hookers and blow. (Well unless the temple was to Cayden, then it might be the same thing.)
LOL! I rembember this when I creat my next character.
It is a role playing question.
Is your party made up of altruistic good guys forged in battle to be a unified force for good..... or are they a band of thugs looking for the best loot they can pry up?
If A then no there should be no charging for items or anything else... If B then pay up or look for another sucker.
I agree with DM Blake. PC A takes feats to excel in battle to be useful to the party. PC B takes feats to create items and is thus a bit less useful in battle, thus compensates by producing magic items at a lower cost.
Period. No ifs, butts, or donation crap. PRODUCE! [whips the item creator vigorously and bellows a laughter worthy of a drunken dwarf!]
Really, that only matters if you are always around with your power attack feat to fight for my crafter. But you will miss sessions, you will be doing your own thing, or I might miss sessions and not benifit from your power attack. My craft skill you always get the benifit from that sword I make is good whether I show up or not. If you decide to go solo for a bit that sword doesn't stop working, so you are solo but getting the benifits of my feat. When I need to go solo do I get your power attack to follow me around? No I don't.
Again if it's just a pile of people that never seprate or go their own way then sure, a feat is a feat. In a game more focused on characters and stories where often those characters have lives away from the group then things are completely different because many will be the time your power attack feat wont be with me when I am out doing my thing and time I spend making your sword is time I have lost to complete my outside the group activities. In those situations you have every right to expect that if you are spending time to make someone an item, they should expect to pay a little more then cost to make that up to you.
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I agree with DM Blake. PC A takes feats to excel in battle to be useful to the party. PC B takes feats to create items and is thus a bit less useful in battle, thus compensates by producing magic items at a lower cost.
Period. No ifs, butts, or donation crap. PRODUCE! [whips the item creator vigorously and bellows a laughter worthy of a drunken dwarf!]
"Ow! Sssstop flogging me Chaine! It's disssstracting!"
As I said before, I don't ask for more than costs for making other PC's stuff, as long as they understand that my projects are given priority. Those doomsday devices don't build themselves, y'know!
Using the other party members as slave labor.... Now that is a new one for me.
In my drow game we did have the female anti-paladin pimp out the male monk to the Mother Matron. "Dude, you did grandma!"
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Period. No ifs, butts, or donation crap. PRODUCE! [whips the item creator vigorously and bellows a laughter worthy of a drunken dwarf!]No problem here you are sir, I hurried as fast as I could making it so was able to create it in half the time most would. I also put in some extra special magic for it (which I didn't really have the pre-requisites for) but I wanted nothing but the best for you.
*whispers* And the GM let me take a 1 for my spellcraft check sucker.
Shhhhh! That's supposed to be a secret between us downtrodden artificers! Geeez! :)
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Let's say the group is traped in a magical prison and the only thing that would set them free would be the raw power of creating a magical item for 8 hours. Would my cleric charge anything for the time? No.
Ok, I doubt I'd be able to change your mind about the relative values of feats, so I'll just leave that issue alone, but I would like to ask a follow up question about the quoted text... If the party was about to go up against a rakshasa(for example), would you consider crafting a holy weapon for the group's fighter (so that he can bypass the DR good and piercing) to be in the party's best interest?
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Ok, I doubt I'd be able to change your mind about the relative values of feats, so I'll just leave that issue alone, but I would like to ask a follow up question about the quoted text... If the party was about to go up against a rakshasa(for example), would you consider crafting a holy weapon for the group's fighter (so that he can bypass the DR good and piercing) to be in the party's best interest?
Time constraints aside (18 days to make said item), that is a considerable outlay of resources to take on a single Raskashashkatiggermonster. A simple oil of align weapon (or similar one-shot gew gaw) on a spear is a lot better choice for a single planned encounter. Something like that would be fine to kick in party funds to make or purchase a couple of for a short term confrontation.
If you're looking at an ongoing campaign with a lot of creatures with DR, then I'd be expecting the PC to be saving up his share of the treasure til he gets the 8000 gp he needs to upgrade his +1 stabbity toy to a +1 holy version. My character would not charge him a mark up for adding permanent upgrades to his kit, but he'd expect the PC to foot the bill for his own permanent magic items.
'Tis true that some characters place more demands on the party artificer (maker of items, not the class) than others, so you also need to keep an eye to fairness when crafting time is limited. The fighter might ask for weapons and armour upgrades at the end of every adventure (lookin' at you, Chaine), but other characters need their turn too.
The last 2 adventures my group has played have had about 3 weeks of downtime between each. That's pretty savvy planning on the part of the DM because it limits the amount of stuff that an artificer can churn out for half cost, and therefore not throw Wealth by Level guidelines out of whack.
Hope that wasn't too rambly. I would like to sum up by saying
Kobooooooold. :)
Let's say the group is traped in a magical prison and the only thing that would set them free would be the raw power of creating a magical item for 8 hours. Would my cleric charge anything for the time? No.Ok, I doubt I'd be able to change your mind about the relative values of feats, so I'll just leave that issue alone, but I would like to ask a follow up question about the quoted text... If the party was about to go up against a rakshasa(for example), would you consider crafting a holy weapon for the group's fighter (so that he can bypass the DR good and piercing) to be in the party's best interest?
I think perhaps there is a missunderstanding.
My cleric won't charge the other party members. I have decidsed that now, but when I started this thread I wasn't sure.One of the reasons were the the party funds combined with "he who needs it best shall get all the good stuff" argument.
Let's talk about the holy weapon.
Yes, I/he would make a holy weapon for the group's tank or rogue.
However I'm not sure this is necessarily in the party's best interest. A normal spear and align weapon works too.
What if my cleric wants a holy spear? Should he not get one because the fighter needs it better? Should my cleric never get want he wants because someone else need something else better?
Heck, sure the cleric will help his friends. I just think "The greater good argument" doesn't always sound "sound". ;-)