so. Here is how my group did it everytime until we adopted the new 28d6 method from pathfinder: We would roll 4d6, 18 times. We would take the top three dice from each 4d6 that would be the stat. there were three columns of 6 stats, we would go across, choosing the one we liked from said horizontal column. with that method I can tell you that a lot of the time, I was rocking at least one 18, and a 16 or seventeen, and rarely did I have lower than one 10. thats just how I rolled. It wasn't a disconnect, we liked hi-power campaigns. My dad regularly rolls terribly. We always tell him it's because dice-rolling actually takes to ranks to be proficient at. And he only has one.
Some of my favorite characters have been ones rolled using the play it as it comes method. More then a few really. Had a human fighter with a 9 con that was great fun, had a cleric with a 14 wisdom, had a rogue with a 10 dex. All turned out very playable and very fun for me.
I don't care what stats I have, any will do. It's making some stats into something more into a character that to me is the very point of a role playing game. I can come to the table and build a fighter but it is also very awesome to come with a handful of dice and watch as the stats take shape in my mind and then start figuring out what this stat block means and how it has made the person who he/she is. Rolled a Top Secret character one time with just really bad stats, all except appearence, rolled a 100 for that. Figure this was a person who has managed to get by on looks alone, so how does that make them feel was my first question from there the character began becoming more then stats.
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In another thread, we're discussing what aspects of the D&D paradigm (or, perhaps better, what aspects of the fictional world you think D&D tries to present) have changed over the editions. From my perspective, one of the biggest changes has been "What is a 1st or 2nd-Level character supposed to be?"
In original D&D and 1st Edition AD&D, the 1st-Level Fighters are normal people, the iconic "turnip farmers" who'd just come back from three months of being militia conscripts.
Each subsequent edition, up through 3.5 and Pathfinder, has pushed those 1st-Level PCs further and further along the power curve.
Attribute "bloat" is one aspect of that.
I started playing in 3.5, but I see where you're coming from here, and agree. I'd like to start off much more "average", with a high stat being a 14 - but to make the game playable at high level (get access to 9th level spells, etc), you'd have to have more stat increases or something. I like that idea though - you're training yourself to be stronger, tougher, wiser, smarter. I prefer character growth to item growth, as well. I want my character, when stripped of their gear, to still be significantly more powerful than the poor level 1 fighter next to me similarly ungeared.
Sorry...somewhat random thoughts.
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I always liked Sphyre's Pointbuy Rolling System from the old Wizards 3.5 boards.
Sphyre's "Pointbuy Rolling System"
Preface
Every now and then I reference my stat aquisition method and the effects it has on the game for me. It's not a perfect art, but I've been very happy with the results of implementing it for over 2 years. I'm not posting this for the purpose of converting people to it, but rather simply as a reference so people know what I'm talking about. If you want to adopt it, you're certainly welcome to.
I used to have a this on the boards but it was lost in the last board upgrade, so this is simply a repost. I have also had some people PM me asking where it is and I have to explain it's been lost and write it all up for them again.
This system is design to give the player a lot of control in choices for their stats while still allowing ability to roll. One of my biggest problems with pointbuy is that it garuntees dump stats. With the randomness of rolling, your dump stats may vary in power, giving a little bit more fluidity to character creation.
It also puts a lot of power into the player's hands in terms of customizing their character/stat aquisition method. You're given points that you can do a variety of things with, spend them on any equations you want, or you can save them for after you roll your stats to boost low scores. Another bonus of this system is that while it's still based on randomness some players will inevitably roll higher stats than others, the contingency point system allows you to boost your stats after you have rolled, and the lower the score that you spend it on, the bigger boost it gives. This means that if you rolled lower than Mr. two 18s, then your contingency points are going to be worth more overall value than his, bridging the gap a bit more.
Keep in mind though, that since it's still rolling, it does have variances, and while lessened, does not remove imbalances. It does, though give the player a lot of power to be happy with their scores no matter what happens though. Remember, if all else fails, you can use the "reroll" rule if your scores aren't high enough.
The System
Players choose Hardcore or Softcore.
Hardcore - You are assigned 7 points.
- You first buy equations.
- You assign the equations to your stats.
- You roll your stats.
- You use any remaining points, also known as contingency points.
- You first buy equations
- You roll your stats.
- You use any remaining points, also known as contingency points.
- You arrange your scores as desired.
......Points Cost.....Equation.....Range
A.....3.....15+½d6(rounded down).....15-18
B.....2.....10+2d4.....12-18
C.....1.....6+2d6.....8-18
D.....0.....3d6.....3-18
Contingency Points:
After you have rolled a score, you can use any leftover points, known from this point on as contingency points, on boosting your scores. The amount it raises your score is based on what the score is:
Score.....Boost
3-7.....+3
8-14.....+2
15-17.....+1
18.....+0
Behind the scenes on Contingency points
Old Score.....New Score.....Mod Increase
3.....6.....+2
4.....7.....+1
5.....8.....+2
6.....9.....+1
7.....10.....+2
8.....10.....+1
9.....11.....+1
10.....12.....+1
11.....13.....+1
12.....14.....+1
13.....15.....+1
14.....16.....+1
15.....16.....+1
16.....17.....+0
17.....18.....+1
18.....18.....+0
Note: If you use two contingency points on a score, you apply them separately, meaning if you have a 7, and you use a contingency point it is boosted by 3, and becomes a 10. Then you use it again, to boost it by 2, becoming a 12.
Examples
Since it is a bit bulkier of a system than say... 4d6 drop the lowest arrange as desired, there might be confusion as to how it works an you may have questions. That's what this section is for so you can see it in action.
Hardcore Example:
I choose hardcore so I have 7 points.
I'm playing a wizard so my highest score will definately be int. I'm also thinking I'll use a few ranged touch attacks so I'm going to decide that dex should be my next highest score, followed by con. Wis, Str, and Cha are all less important.
I buy one A equation, and 2 C equations. This costs me 3 points for the A equation, and 1 point each for each C equations and 3 D equations for no points, totalling to 5 points. This leaves me 2 contingency points.
I assign my equations to stats:
Str - D
Dex - C
Con - C
Int - A
Wis - D
Cha - D
I now roll my Str which is 3d6, and I come out with a 13.
I roll my Dex which is 6+2d6 and get a 14
I roll my Con which is 6+2d6 and unfortunately get an 8
I roll my Int which is ½d6(rounded down) get a 17
I roll my Wis which is 3d6 and get a 7.
I roll my Cha which is 3d6 and get an 11
I have two contingency points to use. I know I want to use at least one on my con, because i rolled minimum on that. That increases it to 10.
Now this is where the decision gets tough. I rolled a 7 for wisdom, and can boost that to 10, having no negative stats. I have a 10 in con, when I'd rather have that higher in case I get hit. I also have a 17 in int, which I could boost that to an 18. The choice is yours and yours alone. I'd probably go 18 int or boost the wisdom to increase my will save and senses by two. It's really a choice of whether you want to boost your assets or mimize your weaknesses. Either way, this system has created a very useable wizard while also allowing it to be non-stereotypical in references to having str as a dump stat.
Softcore Example
I choose softcore so I have 6 points.
I buy equations, buying 5 Cs for one point each, and 1 D for 0 points, netting me with 1 point left over.
I roll 6+2d6 5 times, and 3d6 once, and get the following array: 14, 15, 18, 10, 11, 5.
I have a contingency point so I spend it on the 5, boosting it to an 8. I have the following array now: 18, 15, 14, 11, 10, 8.
I take these scores and arrange as desired.
My group does 4d6, reroll 1s. Roll as many sets of 6 as you want, but you have to use an entire set. Sometimes, we've even had reroll 2s when dice were dead cold. We're happy with the heroic mindset it sets up and the higher fantasy it brings. It's what works for our group.
Sure I've had my doubts as a DM when I particular player brings in her newest broken set of PH/Complete * character when it comes to stats, but I never asked to see the rolls. It just meant I redesigned some elements of the adventure to deal with her specifically.
In another thread, we're discussing what aspects of the D&D paradigm (or, perhaps better, what aspects of the fictional world you think D&D tries to present) have changed over the editions. From my perspective, one of the biggest changes has been "What is a 1st or 2nd-Level character supposed to be?"
In original D&D and 1st Edition AD&D, the 1st-Level Fighters are normal people, the iconic "turnip farmers" who'd just come back from three months of being militia conscripts.
Each subsequent edition, up through 3.5 and Pathfinder, has pushed those 1st-Level PCs further and further along the power curve.
Attribute "bloat" is one aspect of that.
I started playing in 3.5, but I see where you're coming from here, and agree. I'd like to start off much more "average", with a high stat being a 14 - but to make the game playable at high level (get access to 9th level spells, etc), you'd have to have more stat increases or something. I like that idea though - you're training yourself to be stronger, tougher, wiser, smarter. I prefer character growth to item growth, as well. I want my character, when stripped of their gear, to still be significantly more powerful than the poor level 1 fighter next to me similarly ungeared.
Sorry...somewhat random thoughts.
Eager to strip and then brutalize a fighter are we? Tsk, tsk.
I can relate a similer experience to the OP, though how my group came about it was pretty different.
We would roll for stats, but whenever we got a sub-par result, the DM would just say "Re-Roll", and it continued until we all had very good stats, usally with at least one 18 each and a couple over 16.
That's also the main reason why we switched to point-buy, so that character creation was a little quicker. If we thought the stats weren't high enough, we could just increase the number of points we could spend.
Some groups like the organic, random feel. If it's too much though, I'd switch to point-buy.
I've played 5d6 drop lowest two reroll 1's and 2's, 5d6 drop lowest, and for my next game I'm planning 2d8 drop lowest and add 10. I like high scores for survivability.How about this "super heroic" method: roll 3d6, drop the lowest die and add 6? Better than just regular heroic but not as good as TriOemgaZero super-duper-uber-heroic stats. ;)
For the record:
2d8-drop+10 averages to 15.813d6-drop+6 averages to 14.46
I certainly don't have a problem with using methods to create high stat characters, but it needs to be consistently applied. Doing "roll until you like the set" just encourages some players to keep rolling until they get an extreme set.
I do like for there to be at least the *possibility* of a stat under 10.
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First off using math to prove that their sets couldn't have been rolled is total crap. The Dice gods are just kind to some people at character creation and then punish them at the table during game play. I have a friend who would consistantly get 18/00 str whenever he played a fighter in 2e and I always watched him do it. I have frequently accused my best friend's dice of using performance enhancing plastic when he makes his characters. It just happens.
And as a DM who almost always uses Dice Rolling I can understand what you say about the stats seeming to make everything easier... it balances out at the table. There are plenty of ways to challenge PC's that doesn't involve stats or skills.
To be honest though the Heroic Method has become my favorite for Pathfinder!
--Vroctoberfest!
consistently got 18/00 strength? was he rolling 3d6 then 1d100? that is a 1 in 21,600 chance. To get it more than once in your life is pretty unusual to say the least- to get in consistently does indeed seem dodgy.
I have been playing for about 30 years and have seen one legit 18/00 (using 4d6). But it was great because it was so rare- one of a kind etc. He played that character in a campaign that lasted over 10 years.
Yep in the six years he played at my table he rolled up 3 fighters each of which pulled the 18/00... of course the funny part about the 2nd one was he chose to play a tiefling which reduced his Str to 17!!! But by about 8th level he picked up some gauntlets of ogre power and he got his 18/00 back...
However actually playing that man rolled more Nat 1's than anyone I've ever seen. He was constantly fumbling his weapon in the most crucial of battles!
--Vrock n Load!
First off using math to prove that their sets couldn't have been rolled is total crap. The Dice gods are just kind to some people at character creation and then punish them at the table during game play. I have a friend who would consistantly get 18/00 str whenever he played a fighter in 2e and I always watched him do it. I have frequently accused my best friend's dice of using performance enhancing plastic when he makes his characters. It just happens.
And as a DM who almost always uses Dice Rolling I can understand what you say about the stats seeming to make everything easier... it balances out at the table. There are plenty of ways to challenge PC's that doesn't involve stats or skills.
To be honest though the Heroic Method has become my favorite for Pathfinder!
--Vroctoberfest!
consistently got 18/00 strength? was he rolling 3d6 then 1d100? that is a 1 in 21,600 chance. To get it more than once in your life is pretty unusual to say the least- to get in consistently does indeed seem dodgy.
I have been playing for about 30 years and have seen one legit 18/00 (using 4d6). But it was great because it was so rare- one of a kind etc. He played that character in a campaign that lasted over 10 years.
Yep in the six years he played at my table he rolled up 3 fighters each of which pulled the 18/00... of course the funny part about the 2nd one was he chose to play a tiefling which reduced his Str to 17!!! But by about 8th level he picked up some gauntlets of ogre power and he got his 18/00 back...
However actually playing that man rolled more Nat 1's than anyone I've ever seen. He was constantly fumbling his weapon in the most crucial of battles!
--Vrock n Load!
Interesting enough you can use 20d6 and not be sure of an 18/00....because it all has to do with that one percentile roll. The 18 aint all that rare.
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For the record:
2d8-drop+10 averages to 15.81
3d6-drop+6 averages to 14.46I certainly don't have a problem with using methods to create high stat characters, but it needs to be consistently applied. Doing "roll until you like the set" just encourages some players to keep rolling until they get an extreme set.
I do like for there to be at least the *possibility* of a stat under 10.
3d6-drop+6 has a range of 8-18 on each stat. ;)
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I have never had a problem having my players roll, using the 4d6 drop method, and with racial bonuses having really good stats. Most people have at least one 17+, some have two. Most have the stats they need to begin play as their intended race/class, and as they level and gain in power and ability, with feats and stat increases and various magic items, they get what they need to cast the high spells and do the things they want. I have no complaints with 4d6 drop method.
As for the OP, I would really suggest finding that one or two particular things your character can do better than anyone, especially improvised things, and using those to really give flavor to the party.
Some of the best "RPG" stories I have heard, and have told, have been about the "screw-up" character who had lousy stats and gear, who didnt do much during the whole campaign, but saved the party by doing something noone had thought of and could do. Surprising people and making an amazing thing happen from some little known or little used ability is far more impressive and memorable than this:
"ZOMG my lvl 20 uber barbarian with 18 in all stats and +45 saves and 6000 HP just totally ran through the campaign and destoyed EVERYTHING!!!"
That character OUGHT to be able to do that kind of stuff. If he didnt, I would just assume that the player was even weaker than I imagined.
Be your character, enjoy his quirks and do the unexpected.
It is for that very reason I use a point buy system rather than random dice rolling. No one can be accussed of "cheating" and you get the stats you want everytime. Unless you are a munchkin powergamer.
As an aside, in one campaign I was playing in one player rolled the best set of stats I have ever seen on 3d6 with nothing below 15 and two 18s. Turned into one mean Paladin.
I couldn't agree more. I've played 20 years of DnD and point purchase was one of the greatest things we ever adopted. I never want to make a grid of stat rolls ever again if I can help it :D
It's a bit of a conundrum I've wrestled with myself. I want the characters to be able to survive, but the APs are seriously brutal. How generous is too generous? Will they be doomed from the outset if I don't give them enough? And how do I make sure the MAD classes get enough scores to function?
Saddly MAD classes are one thing that get thrown out of wack using Point Buy. One major aspect of point buy is to make scores more expensive the higher they get, to encourage multiple average scores over selective high ones, somthing that SAD classes won't suffer from at all.
If MAD and SAD start to become problems via point buy, I beleive there was a method in which the PC's automatically got set scores to place as they want. The downside of that version is that characters start to seem more similer.
Damn it.
3d6. In order. No rerolls, dropping stats, etc.
You're not going to live very long anyway.
Kids with your "I don't like a stat less than 14". Talk about your disconnect between the value of the stats, and the actual capabilities of the person you are playing. I haven't met many gamers with a charisma or strength of over 8, so maybe it's wish fulfillment. Some of this stuff is crazy.
3d6, six times, in order. Then pick your class. sheesh.
I do like for there to be at least the *possibility* of a stat under 10.3d6-drop+6 has a range of 8-18 on each stat. ;)
Um, yes, I wasn't actually referring to that. Only a 1 in 54 chance of an 8 or 9, but that's better than none :) (and far better than my old 5d6-drop, reroll 1's and 2's - 1 in 1024 chance of a 9).
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I just recently started playing in a game, a friend of mine is DMing for myself and 3 others. I made my character a few weeks ago using his preferred method, rolling 3 sets of stats using 3d6 x6, placed as you want, and picking the best.
I thought I did pretty well, as before racial modifiers I had 17 16 14 13 10 10. All things considered, it was a very playable block. I show up at the table, though, to find that (before modifiers) the other players had 'rolled' (in front of the DM, he insisted) at least two 18s EACH.
The fighter of the group has two 18s and a 17, even. I did a little bit of math and found this to be statistically almost impossible, and asked him about it after the first session.
He insisted that they had used the same method, and in fact that he was surprised that my stats turned were so 'crappy' and apologized for my 'bad luck'. I presented him with the math and he was unmoved.
What would you do in a situation such as this, where the DM just seems to be either straight up lying and letting players use unrealistic stats, or doesn't understand how stat rolls work. Either way, the result is a moderately good character adventuring with demi-gods who seem to think that they are average and I'm gimped.
While I feel your pain, but I know it can be done. Just because the odds are against it doesn't make it even improbable. Some people are just "lucky". As an example: I once rolled 18,18,16,17,18,13 using a wooden dice roll block, you know where you put the dice in the top and they tumble through three angled boards as they fall, because the group I was with didn't trust me to roll by hand anymore, too many 18's... they gave up after that... I have also rolled 3,6,3,7,3,3 and played with that character. (she didn't last long, but outlived the guy with 18(93) str. =P ) I play what I roll.
and THAT leads me to my main comment; which is actually about your attitude. It's all wrong! Just because they end up with great stats, especially compared to you, means didly! Do you Roll-play or Role-play? They have great stats, let them use them, they will be ground up first. It's what average people do, in real life, or have you not noticed? I miss the old days of second edition where people were not so hung up on "fair" or "even" or "balanced". We used to have some of the best roleplay times back then, even when we died horribly. Now it's about characters "winning". =(
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Damn it.
3d6. In order. No rerolls, dropping stats, etc.
You're not going to live very long anyway.
Kids with your "I don't like a stat less than 14". Talk about your disconnect between the value of the stats, and the actual capabilities of the person you are playing. I haven't met many gamers with a charisma or strength of over 8, so maybe it's wish fulfillment. Some of this stuff is crazy.
3d6, six times, in order. Then pick your class. sheesh.
heh. old schooler. =P
Of course, I have picked my class then rolled before... a mage with 8 INT was... interesting. lol
I had a 3.0 wizard that rolled 13 18 18 18 16 14 using 4d6 drop. The roll was witnessed by several people, who for some strange reason began cursing me and throwing things at me. I had a great deal of fun with this character, which I played through 21st level. Since, I have come to be quite fond of point buy. I understand the the rolling can be fun, and that it's more traditional. However, point buy has several qualities that I prefer. First, it keeps the entire party on the same level. Also, if I have a character idea or outline, I don't have to worry about not rolling stats that fit the character.
I can still bench 250+ lbs. even with my penalties from old age. What strength score does that give me?
Around 12, which is kind of the point. 12 is strong.
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You roll 3d6 6 times, and place them how you like. You can roll 3 sets of stats and pick one of them, but if you don't like any of those sets you can keep rolling until you get a block you like.
That is honestly the sillyest thing I've ever heard, yeah we roll, but you just keep rolling till you get the high stats, yeah I could have saved us all a bunch of wasted time giving a high point buy, but hey, I hate point buy, so just roll the dice for 3 hours till you get a good set.
what I really love is his specified, 3 sets. What prey tell is the point of that arbitrary number. If you can just keep rolling until you get a block you like, why not make that # 5 sets or 8, or 1, they can still keep rolling if they don't like it.
Just silly.
and why 3d6, if people will just re-roll until they get the block they want, then 3d6 seems like unnecessary busy work, they're gonna roll till they get a good set, why not just make it 5d6 drop the lowest 2, or 6d6 drop the lowest 3, they'll wind up with near the same stat block in the end
Maybe I'm biased because if I have players roll stats, they roll 4d6 drop the lowest die, and they roll 6 times, no re-rolls unless the stats are unplayable (+1 or less final total bonus modifiers)
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To all who have posted that this is why they prefer point buy, I wholeheartedly agree. When I start a new campaign I explain two systems of dice rolls and let them vote for which they will all use: basic point buy, or 4d6-drop arranged how they like. We roll them all together and go.
We played again today, and the DM had asked the other three players to reroll one of their 18s each to make their characters slightly more realistic. Apparently he wasn't as certain that he had witnessed all of their rolls after I asked him about it.
I plan on sticking with the group and seeing how it goes, but I was disappointed to see that at least one of the players was periodically lying about his attack rolls, bumping no fewer than 3 rolls up by adding 10 to his originally low roll.
Personally I don't understand the point of the game if you ignore the rules; the risk of failure is what makes it interesting. Oh well....
Also, to whoever asked what we were playing, the group ended up being a Gnome Wizard (myself, going to multiclass rogue and take the Arcane Trickster PrC), Human Fighter, Human Cleric, and Half-Elf Bard.
As for generating a point buy system with perfect parity, this is one right here.Choose an 'average stat' for all the PC's. I typically use 14. The PC's may freely rearrange wherever they choose, to a maximum of 18 and a minimum of 6.
You'll find Fighter's with a 12ish charisma for social situations, and Sorcerers with intelligence scores higher than 10.
The idea, in my mind, is to generate a situation where players can get what they want in a balanced environment. Why is it people think pointbuy promotes balance when all it does is promote dumping.
Normally, 36 point-buy allows someone to buy 6 scores at 14. If they drop one of those scores to 10, they can raise another to 16.
Unless I've seriously misunderstood you somehow, under your system, someone who drops a score to 10 can raise the other all the way to 18. In fact, all they have to do is drop 2 scores to 6 and the other 4 are set: 18, 18, 18, 18, 6, 6.
I missed the part where this discourages min-maxing.
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Choose an 'average stat' for all the PC's. I typically use 14. The PC's may freely rearrange wherever they choose, to a maximum of 18 and a minimum of 6.You'll find Fighter's with a 12ish charisma for social situations, and Sorcerers with intelligence scores higher than 10.
The idea, in my mind, is to generate a situation where players can get what they want in a balanced environment. Why is it people think pointbuy promotes balance when all it does is promote dumping.
I started doing something similar. Grim game = 11, Standard game = 12, Heroic game = 13, Epic game = 14 for base stats. Max based upon game scale, 16,18,20,22 , Min scaled also, 6,8,10,12 so you always have 10 point spread.
If you gave me a good background you could add a total of 3 points somewhere. But for it to be "good" I wanted four GM plot hooks included, and if your character were handed to someone else, they could play them based upon the background. If you gave me more than six, I'd give you an extra point. I almost always get seven these days.
If you took two flaws that were believable based upon your background, (DC 25 will save vs.), I gave you 2 more points.
Effectively you could move up one point per stat with a good base to play your character.
New players might min/max things, my olde tyme players make interesting characters. (of course to be fair, I haven't run a table top game in over 2 years, everyone moved away... *sigh*)
Kyrt Rider wrote: And THAT, Nero, is why I HATE!!! the current point buy system. Higher prices for higher scores doesn't encourage more average scores, all it does is generate intentional dump stats because in order to get that 18, the character has to burn the bulk of what they have available to them. (And of course non-casters take the blunt here because they need the saves, HP, etc so much more. A Wizard with Int 18 and 8 everything else can function decently, though is more vulnerable than most. A fighter with Str 18 and 8 everything else..... not so much.)
As for generating a point buy system with perfect parity, this is one right here.
Choose an 'average stat' for all the PC's. I typically use 14. The PC's may freely rearrange wherever they choose, to a maximum of 18 and a minimum of 6.
You'll find Fighter's with a 12ish charisma for social situations, and Sorcerers with intelligence scores higher than 10.
The idea, in my mind, is to generate a situation where players can get what they want in a balanced environment. Why is it people think pointbuy promotes balance when all it does is promote dumping
14 as an average stat, IMO, is way to high. Players in my campaign do have fighters with 12 CHA and 13 INT but they don't have 18 STR. They could if they wanted but they choose not to. Random rolls doesn't generate choice, you get what you initially roll.
Why does a character *have* to have an 18 in a stat? Is a wizard with 16 INT unplayable?
And is okay to have just average stats, those who min/max run foul of Allips, poison and other means of ability drain/damage.
The idea, in my mind, is to generate a situation where players can get what they want in a balanced environment. Why is it people think pointbuy promotes balance when all it does is promote dumping.
I prefer a combination of low point buy and rapid improvement. Use the Standard Fantasy or even the Low Fantasy point buy values... and the Conan RPG rule that in addition to the +1 to one ability score every 4 levels, you gain +1 to all of your ability scores at 6th and every 4 afterwards. House Rule that you can't improve the same score twice in a row.
Yeah. You're still going to get the occasional Fighter who starts with sevens in Intelligence and Charisma. But he'll get better. Your MAD monkey is probably going to start with more reasonable scores, and keep them well-rounded as he advances.
Why does a character *have* to have an 18 in a stat? Is a wizard with 16 INT unplayable?
Not until 15th level.
Why does a character *have* to have an 18 in a stat? Is a wizard with 16 INT unplayable?Not until 15th level.
I was writing in relation to starting characters as this thread is about beginning stat rolling. You get a stat point every 4 levels so your +3 would obviously go to INT if you were going to go to 20th as a wizard.
It is totally unnescessary to start a 1st level PC with an 18 in any stat. The additional points gained at later levels makes it so. That is the point I was trying to get accross. It appears that some players see a *beginning* character with no 18 in a stat as inferior to play which I disagree with.
I'd see 16 as an optimal value for a caster-class to start out with.
18 is not necessary - in fact, I don't think I've ever bought an 18 even with a 25-point buy.
The idea, in my mind, is to generate a situation where players can get what they want in a balanced environment. Why is it people think pointbuy promotes balance when all it does is promote dumping.
How does it promote dumping?
As Hydro put it your point buy can give you a PC at 1st level four stats of 18 and two at 8. That in my opinion is way to high for a starting PC. So at 20th the player will put 5 points into the main stat and probably purchase a +6 Whatnot giving a main stat of 29 and a +9 bonus. That seems overpowered to me.Could a player using your method drop all his stats bar one to 8 and tick all the points on to his main stat? Or just drop them to an average of 11 bar the main stat?
The idea, in my mind, is to generate a situation where players can get what they want in a balanced environment. Why is it people think pointbuy promotes balance when all it does is promote dumping.How does it promote dumping?
As Hydro put it your point buy can give you a PC at 1st level four stats of 18 and two at 8. That in my opinion is way to high for a starting PC. So at 20th the player will put 5 points into the main stat and probably purchase a +6 Whatnot giving a main stat of 29 and a +9 bonus. That seems overpowered to me.
Could a player using your method drop all his stats bar one to 8 and tick all the points on to his main stat? Or just drop them to an average of 11 bar the main stat?The reason the standard pointbuy promotes dumping (In my experience at least, perhaps others have other experiences with it) is because to get a stat up to a good level you have to completely throw away everything else. There's no room to be ok at some things and great at others.
A player using my method could do that yes, but he's less likely to when he has the opportunity to create a balanced character capable of handling alot of situations without sacrificing his main stat(s)
If you feel an 18 at the start for any stat is too high, then feel free to put a cap of how high a stat can be raised lower than 18. (Honestly in my games I like for my PC's to have upwards of two 18's, and do what I can to facilitate such even in random die roll games.)
It's your game, play it how you like Spacelard. I just don't like staggerred pointbuy, because in order for people to get the big scores where they need them, they end up throwing away the other ones, instead of being a more all around person with some strengths and the rest generally average-ish.
I think we will agree to disagree here.
You didn't answer my question if I wanted to drop my stats bar one to 11 what would my prime stat be.You state that point buy in your experiance players throw away stats to get a prime stat up to a good level and I think that our main difference is what we class as a good stat or set of stats.
To me 16,14,14,10,10,12 is a fine set and 18,18,18,18,8,8 overpowered.
The average of 3-18 is 10-11 and I see that you use an average as 14 in one of your examples. Why should PCs be good at everything?
You're right its my game and I will play it how I want but also how my players want and none of my players would be happy playing,IMO, supercharacters. And I respect that in your game you use a different method of PC creation, I just don't agree with it.
you did do well because you did not cheat. Take the high road. DO NOT say another word about it, go to the game with a positive attitude and play like an adult. BUT if you find out that they have been cheating (if they cheat on that they will do so again) tell them calmly that you dont play with cheats and if it continues LEAVE. Oh and everytime it comes up name the cheats by name. Nothing is worst than getting a bad rep in the gaming circles.
Sorry I didn't answer your question SpaceLard, I've been up all night and apparently the hour is getting to me.
Lets see, with a 14 average, then dropping your stats all to 11 and pumping the main stat would give... an 18, with 11 points to spare to distribute.
I'll freely admit the average I chose is very high and some won't like it, but here's a thought, consider setting 12 as the average.
I think most would find it to be a more equitable system overall.
(Of course, I don't fault you for not wanting PC's to start with an 18 before racial mods, it's your call. Of course, it's also possible my perception's been skewed by being one of the earlier mentioned stat-masters, always rolling at least one 18 and rarely anything in a set under 12.)
Thats okay, its a sunny afternoon where I'm sitting!
I hope you are capping, I mean you don't allow a 1st Level to have 29 in a stat surely?In the days when Istus would or wouldn't smile on the dice it wasn't unusual for players to have a max stat at 16 and I've played a cleric with 5 CON. That was using 3d6 any order and to have an 18 was not usual and more than one I have only seen once in 10 years of creating characters that way. I do set a minimum of 8 for INT as anything below that is a bit drooly to play but if someone had a real good reason to go lower I would allow it but not so they could just boost a stat to 18.
NOW GO TO BED!
In my last D&D campaingn, I gave everyone the option of either 4d6 drop the lowest, or taking 10,11,12,13,14,15.
Everyone rolls together, so that everyone can see that no one is cheating, and because they enjoy the fun of watching the stats evolve.
But, we have one player whom all dice hate. (He played WH40K against me once, and rolled 33 d6's and only rolled over a 2 twice...) so, he always ends up with the worse stats in the game.
Some players have "lucky dice" (my old, waxy plastic gamma world dice roll high for me...).
I think that allowing players to roll ahead of time invites some dishonesty. I had a player come to the game with a "pre-rolled" character from another game that he wanted to use. Of course it had exceptional stats (nothing under 14), and I made him roll in front of us. (I also don't let players bring in characters from other GMs, but thats another topic.)
Either way, the probability of dice can be a lot of fun, and a lot of players prefer the randomness over the security of pre-rolled stats.
Sorry I didn't answer your question SpaceLard, I've been up all night and apparently the hour is getting to me.
Lets see, with a 14 average, then dropping your stats all to 11 and pumping the main stat would give... an 18, with 11 points to spare to distribute.
I'll freely admit the average I chose is very high and some won't like it, but here's a thought, consider setting 12 as the average.
I think most would find it to be a more equitable system overall.
(Of course, I don't fault you for not wanting PC's to start with an 18 before racial mods, it's your call. Of course, it's also possible my perception's been skewed by being one of the earlier mentioned stat-masters, always rolling at least one 18 and rarely anything in a set under 12.)
All I see with your system is a ton more points for stats so you need only crush one to get great stats elsewhere. Not sure that helps the point buy system at all. You could just let everyone have all 18s it would do in the extreme what your method does for the point buy system. But neither fix it in any way that really matters.
I find just point min and don't allow more then one stat to be bought below 10 before racial mods. Heck I usually make 8 mins with that and it works ok.
But frankly you want to avoid people making dump stats, it's really easy. Roll and keep them in the order rolled. They may want int as a dump stat well doesn't matter it you roll a 17 in int that is where it goes. Generally it makes for some really unusal stat placements, fighters with a better int the con, mages with extreme str scores, rogues with extreme wis scores. Interesting and avoids the whole dump stat thing. That is the one way to avoid it, but the cost is you don't get to min max near as much or even play the class you want by default. Use whatever roll method you like 3d6 each stat, 4d6 -low, 1d6 + 12, whatever and place in order.
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One idea I saw that interested me was a draft roll. Everyone rolls whatever. Then all stats go into the pool. Calculate the average bonus from all the stats. No player can go higher than that in total bonuses. Then the draft begins. Sounded like a very exciting method, and ensures everyone gets something.
Me, given that option, I would get tired of rolling after 30 or 40 sets and then I would automate it. Something simple, like Excel, where I could set up 20 or so columns, each containing a set of 6 stats, with a total at the bottom and a count of the number of 18s. I would set it to flag red if the count of 18s was > 3 and the total was over 100. Then I would hit the key to regenerate the data over and over until I spotted the red flag. That would be the "block I like".OK, that was the powergaming Tarrasque. Me the roleplayer, I wouldn't stoop to that.
But, after all, why not? If we can keep rolling until the end of time, why not roll until the stats are truly epic?
I actually had a GM in a Rifts game who allowed you to reroll blocks as much as you like so long as you didn't automate it and did it in front of him.
14 as an average stat, IMO, is way to high.
What people are saying is 'average', what they mean is 'mean'.
The 'mean' stat of 3-18 range is. . .
18-3=15/2 7.5
Either 7 or 8 depending on if you round up or down.
I'm not even going to point out the insanity that this is lower than what you will average on 3d6 (3.5*3)
Again. Roll 3d6. Those penalties are there for a reason.
-Campbell
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14 as an average stat, IMO, is way to high.What people are saying is 'average', what they mean is 'mean'.
The 'mean' stat of 3-18 range is. . .
18-3=15/2 7.5
Either 7 or 8 depending on if you round up or down.
I'm not even going to point out the insanity that this is lower than what you will average on 3d6 (3.5*3)
Again. Roll 3d6. Those penalties are there for a reason.
-Campbell
Your maths is faulty. You forgot to account for the fact that the spread doesn't start at 1 in your results above. The mean is the (minimum+maximum)/2, not (maximum-minimum)/2. This gives 10.5 which is, as expected, exactly the same as the mean of 3d6, given that that gives a range of 3-18.
Edited as I misread.
Not to derail the thread too far, but my current campaign started with an elaborate system including the "3 Dragon Ante" cards (see Craig Shackelton's article in Dragon). It produced some seriously unbalanced characters.
So, now I've switched over to Asha Greyjoy's grid system. We've been very pleased with it.
I just wanted to thank you for posting a link to this, I'm starting a new campaign this Friday and I've been thinking about what rolling method to use, and this looks it will fit the bill quite nicely.