What are the best spells/abilities/feats/stratagies to help a party using just the core Pathfinder RPG book for a Bard/Rogue build? This is for Pathfinder Society, so don't presume any specific magic item/equipment access.
Mainly, what can that character do in combat, other than ineffective attacks?
Once you can cast it, invisibility would be good for sneak attacks. Your use magic device skill would let you use a wand of true strike, along with other wands that can deal damage, like scorching ray. You can add sneak attack damage to it, too, so go for surprise!
Weapon finesse and arcane strike can help you hit and do a little more damage, and you can hold off on buying magic weapons at low levels. Any weapon in your hand is considered magic. That feat at low levels, plus a masterwork weapon, gives you the equivalent of a +1 magic weapon, without spending 2000 gold. Get a masterwork sword and bow ASAP! Spend your saved 4000 on raising your AC, or a cool wand or 2.
Blur can give you concealment, letting you sneak attack for a few rounds.
Light armor + a shield helps your AC, so don't be afraid to jump into melee when you can flank and get SA damage. The +2 to hit, combined with your inspire courage ability, helps you (and everyone else) land that attack when you need it.
Just a few thoughts. The bard/rogue has a lot of talents that can help the party outside of combat, too. Between the 2 classes you have just about every skill in the book as a class skill, and the skill points to make use of them.
A bard/rogue isn't a frontline kinda guy, but he's far from useless!
First how do you plan on multi-classing your bard/rogue.. like going 8rogue/4bard? Also what are you plans for your character? Do you see yourself mainly getting close to a flanked enemy and causing massive rogue dmg and maybe do some minor bard healing/buffing. Or do you see yourself mainly doing the role of the bard and using your rogue skills(trap sense, sleigh of hand etc.) to help out the party.
I'm not sure of spefic level breakdown. What I'd like is to be able to be Knowledge King/Trap Finder & Disabler/Party Combat Supporter. I don't need any of the glory... I just want to be able to do something useful every round of combat.
I'm not sure of spefic level breakdown. What I'd like is to be able to be Knowledge King/Trap Finder & Disabler/Party Combat Supporter. I don't need any of the glory... I just want to be able to do something useful every round of combat.
I'd take your first 4 levels (at least) in bard, trapfinding is nice, but not really necessary until you start running into magical traps. Bardic song is great at any level, but is particularly noticeable early on when everyone is struggling to pull together every +1 and +2 they can get.
Grabbing Bard 5 is tempting for Inspire Competence +2, but if you do you'll either have to hold off on Rogue until level 9, or pretty seriously gimp your BAB. It's a trade off either way, straight Bard 8 might be worth it for Dirge of Doom, Versatile Performance, and 3rd level spells, and if you're not worried about getting into the frontline you can probably get by with just 1 level of rogue for finding magical traps.
on the other hand, Rogue 4/Bard 4 will give you slightly better BAB, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and more sneak attack. (At least until you hit 9, it will even out at that point, regardless of what you do)
In the end I'd say it's a trade off between personal power (Rogue 4) and party power (Bard 8).
As for specific tactics, Hold Person, Glitterdust, and Blindness each give you the opportunity to make sneak attacks, Glitterdust is probably the most effective of these, as it does the most to help the party as a whole, but Blindness can be useful for targets you worry might make Will saves a bit too easily.
Which are the other group members's classes? How many of them are them? The bard is more useful in larger groups.
But some advices:
- Just one level of Rogue means you can disable magical traps and that Disable Device is class skill (+3). Also you have a +1 bonus in Perception (traps) and Disable Device. 1d6 sneak attack.
- I'd go for a DEX based / ranged build so you can drop Str and Con and rise Int, Cha.
- Races: Maybe Elf (+Int, Dex, -Con, +Perception) or Half-elf (2 favored classes, +Perception, Skill Focus); or human (+1 feat, +1 skill)
- Skill Focus (Perception) is a +6 bonus at level 10. Just as a 12 level rogue.
- Arcane Strike and archery feats for damage; maybe Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting.
- Rogue talents: Trap Spotter, Combat Trick, Finesse Rogue, Quick Disable (the latter is much less useful).
- Extra Performance feat should be a must.
- Inspire Courage + Good Hope spell means the other characters deal about 50% to 100% more damage. Add Haste.
- Inspire GReatness. If you begin this perfomance every round (at level 13th a free action), you actually are giving +11 to +30 hp every round.
- Use Magic Device skill is also a must. Magical aptitude feat?
Let's try a Half-Elf Bard 11/ Rogue 1.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim, Manyshot.
He is attacking:
BAB +9 Dex +5 Bow +2 InsCourage +3 GoodHope +2 Haste +1 Point Blank Shot +1 Deadly Aim -2 Rapid Shot -2 = +19
He's got 5 attacks: 2 for BAB, 1 for Rapid Shot, 1 for Manyshot, 1 for Haste:
+19/+19/+19/+19/+14
Damage: 1d8 + Bow +2 InsCourage +3 ArcaneStrike +3 Good Hope +2 Point Blank Shot +1 Deadly Aim +4. Total 1d8 + 15.
VS AC 25 that is (75%*4+50%) * 19.5 = 68.25 average damage
VS AC 30 that is (50%*4+25%) * 19.5 = 43.87 average damage
He also adds +6 to attack and +5 to damage to all in his party, and an extra attack, which means probably about 100%+ extra damage.
Skills: 6* 11 + 8 + (Int +3 FavoredClass +1) * 12 = 66+8+48 = 122 ranks
That means 10 skills with 12 ranks (max), plus:
+3 because Class Skill
+5 to all Knowledges
+2 to Perception (+3 vs traps)
+6 to one Skill (Skill focus-Perception)
+1 to Disable Device
Just using one rank on 12 knowledges means:
Rank+1 +Int +3 ClassSkill +3 Bard +5 = +12 Bonus on all of them
Perception: Ranks +12 Wis +1 ClassSkill +3 SkillFocus +6 HalfElf +2 = +24 (+25 vs traps)
Disable Device: Ranks +12 Dex +5 ClassSkill +3 Rogue +1 Masterwork +2 = +23
Inspire GReatness. If you begin this perfomance every round (at level 13th a free action), you actually are giving +11 to +30 hp every round.
Heh, never considered that use of it, that is certainly a bit nuts, and if it weren't for losing the effect of inspire courage, it would be bordering on broken.
Sorry, Deadly Aim is -3 to attack, +6 to damage with BAB +9. It should be then:
Attack: +18/+18/+18/+18/+13
Damage: Total 1d8 + 17.
VS AC 25 that is (70%*4+45%) * 21.5 = 69.87 average damage
VS AC 30 that is (45%*4+20%) * 21.5 = 43.00 average damage
Thanks everyone! You've been very helpful. Still thinking about a lot of things...
Think I'll go Bard X/Rogue 2 (for that auto find traps talent). Should I consider a third level of rogue? Also, should I consider one or two levels of Shadowdancer?
Also, what stats for a 20 point buy Human? And boost which stat? And boost what at level 4 and 8'
Anything to add guys?
Thanks everyone! You've been very helpful. Still thinking about a lot of things...
Think I'll go Bard X/Rogue 2 (for that auto find traps talent). Should I consider a third level of rogue? Also, should I consider one or two levels of Shadowdancer?
Also, what stats for a 20 point buy Human? And boost which stat? And boost what at level 4 and 8'
I would not go for Shadowdancer. The Hide in Plain Sight is great, but you may have Invisibility as a Bard.
Arcane TRickster, though, let you advance in Sneak Attack and Spells, but stops your bardic music. BAB +1/2.The stats are depending on the build you finally want. If you are going to archery or weapon finesse, for example, you can drop Str.
I would suggest a pure Bard. A significant dip into Rogue costs you a lot of caster levels and bardic music abilities; a shallow dip costs you +1 BAB as well as caster levels and bardic music uses. I don’t think that the +3 to Disable Device and 1d6 sneak attack outweigh those impacts.
You are looking for a build that excels at knowledge checks, trap removal and party support. The Bard is far superior at the knowledge and support roles and each level of Rogue reduces the potency of those abilities. The Bard is missing two abilities versus the Rogue when it comes to trap removal:
1) Disable Device as a class skill and
2) The ability to use Disable Device to disable magical traps.
You can take a feat that recovers the +3 bonus to the skill; you can not take a feat that recovers the loss to BAB or Caster Level that a dip into Rogue will cost you.
As for magical traps, the Bard gets unlimited uses of Detect Magic to help with detecting magical traps and is a full caster capable of using Dispel Magic to disable magical traps.
I would suggest an Elf for the useful stat bonuses and the Longbow Proficiency with the following distribution for a 20 point buy:
S: 11
D: 14 (16)
C: 12 (10)
I: 12 (14)
W: 10
Ch: 16
If you want to be combat focused put your stat bumps into Dexterity and pick-up Archery feats (my recommendation). If you want to be caster/buffer focused put your stat increases into Charisma and pick up Extra Music and Spell Focus feats.
I too would recommend pure bard... and a gnome.
20 points, after racial modifiers:
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 18
These are fairly safe numbers (no penalties). If you don't mind a little dumping, there are arguments for maxing out Charisma... at 20 you gain a second bonus slot at 1st level, and of course +5 DC is better than +4.
Even without bumping up Cha, you've got a +5 DC on illusions from being a gnome, and I recommend exploiting this: make Silent Image one of your initial spells, and be creative. Seriously... illusions can be very, very powerful. It's almost worth taking Spell Focus (Illusion), but Extra Music, Dodge, Fleet or (believe it or not) Improved Unarmed Strike could be worthwhile.
I'm not sure what kind of starting gold you get in Pathfinder Society, but with just the standard average (105 for bard) you can pick up studded leather and a heavy shield for +5 AC, giving a total of 18 after size and Dex. Do note that a heavy shield completely occupies that hand, so you can't cast somatic spells with a weapon drawn - this is what makes Improved Unarmed Strike potentially useful; even if you never make a single melee attack, you could be a pretty solid flanker with that AC, which works with the "no need for personal glory" party-assistant motif.
Alternately, just go for the light shield. (Or no shield at all if you want a shortbow, but IMO javelins are superior what with your lack of ranged combat feats.) If you need a melee weapon, go straight for the longsword initially... you won't have finesse until level 3 if you even bother, so might as well take the bigger die.