There is nothing in the rules that I have ever found that precludes this. If this is indeed based on the GM's personal preferences based on something he read about crossbows, it would really irk me if he used that as a basis for a game ruling.
Rules wise, there isn't much of a point in worrying about drawing a bow, since you don't have to spend any kind of action to draw a bowstring, its just part of the attack.
I have a replica medieval crossbow I purchased while I was stationed in Sicily. You DM is correct in saying that they did not have a mechanism for holding the bolt in place, in fact it was one of the first things I noticed.
However, the game is based on a fantasy medieval setting, so I don't feel it unreasonable to say the bolt has a way to stay in place until fired. If we use real world effects in game, then the game is gonna get very unfun IMO. For example, try tumbling with an open quiver on your back, or see how well certain weapons (longsword) work against certain armor types (plate).
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I looked around on the web;
it seems like the advice is to "not climb trees or walk around with a cocked crossbow, as jostling can accidentally fire the bolt."
That seems like less of a problem with holding the bolt in place than with f!!!ing yourself over.
I'd think.....you could hold a hand over the bolt to hold it in place, but....releasing the string accidentally is going to hurt real bad.
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I usually rule that you can move with a loaded crossbow as long as you are in combat. Out of combat for an extended period (more than a minute) and you can't leave the crossbow loaded or you risk losing the bolt or eventually ruining the bow. I'm not hugely picky about it - I only developed the rule because players were saying they were walking around town with a loaded crossbow all day.
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Can a character move while carrying a loaded crossbow?
I seem to remember the illustation of the iconic 3.0/3.5 cleric having a loaded crossbow hanging of his belt in the PHB.
Is this the DM's houserule (should be laid out before play starts) or an on the fly ruling? I would ask him to show where in the rule book it says this. Honestly I have never heard of anyone questioning the loaded crossbow - it seems to be a "perk" of the weapon......
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I seem to remember the illustation of the iconic 3.0/3.5 cleric having a loaded crossbow hanging of his belt in the PHB.Unfortunately, while there IS a bolt in that crossbow, the string is not actually drawn. As such, it is not truly "loaded".
(...doesn't explain what's keeping the bolt from falling out of course...)
I don't want to quarrel with you, but maybe it's bolted in.
I imagine those gnomes and wizardly types are smart enough to know how to devise a gripping mechanism to the bolt to keep it in place until the trigger is pulled. In fact, I would imagine that it'd only add a few dozen gp to the item, and would require it to be masterwork. After all, they make other mechanical monstrosities, this should be a piece of cake.
Likewise, just use your DM's logic against him. If you can't move or the bolt will fall out, then state that you're going to move anyways, and the bolt falls out. No big loss, because you likely have skill points in bowyer and can make your own for free.
As for wanting to move and keep the bolt? It's really not difficult to imagine the bolt fitting in a groove, so you should be able to at least move at half speed, and you should always be able to take a 5 foot step. Using a crossbow is strict enough in of itself to be unattractive. Why punish players further simply for the sake of achieving realism?
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Technically, you shouldn't even walk around with the crossbow *strung,* let alone loaded. It's bad for the crossbow.
Crossbows definitely have a mechanism for holding the weapon in a loaded position. There would be no reason for them to have a trigger, if they were just a bow mounted sideways on a plank of wood, after all... (Some earlier triggers were less 'triggers' than they were deadman switch-type devices, where your pressure on the trigger kept the string from releasing, making it mechanically sort of a 'reverse trigger' in that you've got to keep it depressed to *not fire.*)
It wouldn't be particularly safe to walk around with a loaded crossbow, but slowly wandering down a dungeon corridor with a crossbow loaded wouldn't be much of an issue. You'd probably accidentally fire the bolt whilst falling down a pit-trap or whatever, but that's a minor inconvenience compared to, yanno, falling into a pit!
Now, if you've got a magically enhanced Keen Holy adamantine crossbow bolt tipped with wyvern venom, that's gonna be an expensive misfire, and, quite possibly the sort of story that ends up becoming a Darwin Award. :)
Even going with 'real world realism', I hardly see a problem with someone loading, walking 30' and then firing. And going from precedent, AD&D 2nd Edition (remember Weapon Speed?) specifically included the possibility of leaving your X-bow loaded (which gave it a really quick weapon speed for your first shot). Without a rule specifically barring movement, I think it's safe to say the rules assumed people would move with their loaded X-bows.
Realistically, your DM probably dislikes the idea of ALWAYS having your X-bow loaded, because if you could get away with that, why not, right? Someone suggested allowing keeping it loaded "in combat", but that's even overly narrow. I've seen it house-ruled that leaving your X-bow loaded FOR EXTENDED PERIODS OF TIME (not always defined, but you could say it includes generic overland travel, i.e. hours at a time) would eventually causes your X-bow itself to fail. But if you're in a situation where you're tracking time/space on a round/square basis, or even anytime you would "have your guard up" (or your SWORD drawn), you can have your X-bow armed. That shouldn't need to be more than several minutes, or 10 at most.
p.s. Like some-one said, you can use your DM's logic against him, saying "OK, the bolt falls out? As part of the firing action, just like bows, I place the bolt in it's slot." ...But that's snarky, and I think if you offer a compromise like I suggested, so that you won't necessarily ALWAYS have your X-bow loaded (i.e. you CAN be surprised), he will accept that solution and everybody should be happy. If not, there's probably a bigger issue.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Walking in with a loaded crossbow. Argument about movement solved.
I would say that you couldn't, say, make an Acrobatics check to tumble away from an opponent with a loaded crossbow, and jumping a chasm with one in hand could be spectacularly bad, but just moving from one place to another during a turn while on foot? (Or flying, for those with winged boots?) Totally allowable.
Maybe just, I don't know, Cock the Crossbow (since that is the actual hard part) and just don't put the bolt on until your ready to fire it?
But that's just me and common sense over here in the corner having a drink.
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Maybe just, I don't know, c*!# the Crossbow (since that is the actual hard part) and just don't put the bolt on until your ready to fire it?
But that's just me and common sense over here in the corner having a drink.
Or you know, if it really bugs you as a player just use a repeating crossbow and move on with your life.
Damn, I knew I should have paid more attention. I just recently saw a show on History Television or something to that effect that covered this very issue.
There's a heavily fortified castle or fort in the Middle East that had all sorts of bottlenecks set up for the crossbowmen to massacre potential invaders. They ran into a problem however because when they aimed the crossbows at a down-angle the bolts would just fall out. So they came up with a simple clip that held the bolt in place lightly. While I didn't catch all the details I imagine it had to be reasonably light so that it wouldn't rob too much energy from the shot.
Damn, I knew I should have paid more attention. I just recently saw a show on History Television or something to that effect that covered this very issue.
There's a heavily fortified castle or fort in the Middle East that had all sorts of bottlenecks set up for the crossbowmen to massacre potential invaders. They ran into a problem however because when they aimed the crossbows at a down-angle the bolts would just fall out. So they came up with a simple clip that held the bolt in place lightly. While I didn't catch all the details I imagine it had to be reasonably light so that it wouldn't rob too much energy from the shot.
As a tinkerer myself... why not just attach a clip that holds the bolt in place to the trigger mechanism? It's basically a lever-release anyways -- when the trigger is pulled and the string releases, the clip releases too. Problem solved.
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I have seen a hand cross bow that has piece of spring iron that arcs over the release mech and holds the bolt in place. When the bolt is fired the spring iron just slides along the bolt as it is fired. I don't see that as all the hard to make and it would work.
I would have a issue as a DM will ALWAYS having the crossbow loaded because I could see it going off at a slight jog if it was not being held.
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We're getting into a Realist vs. Gamist argument.
Essentially, there is NO rule for this question, so the end result is the purvue of the DM as long as the ruling is consistent both with itself and with other similar rulings by the DM.
From my viewpoint, without a limit outside of the rules, a player can load a crossbow, throw it into an earthquake, wait 500 years, come back with their characters progeny and fire it with no problem.
The typical medieval crossbow of earth's history had a very strong mechanism for holding the crossbow drawn and ready to fire, but had no mechanism at all for keeping the quarrel in the firing track. So if you tipped your crossbow in any direction, or even gave it a relatively minor jostle, your quarrel would fall off of the crossbow.
The crossbow, however, would remain drawn until you release the trigger.
So, if we're looking for realism, I would imagine someone walking carefully could manage to hold it level enough to keep the quarrel in the track. It's no harder than putting a hen's egg in a spoon and trying to walk without dropping it. Probably even a bit easier, actually, since the firing track is designed to (somewhat) hold the bolt in place.
But running, jumping, acrobatics, etc., that kind of stuff is out. Very likely, getting hit or injured would be enough of a jostle to jar the quarrel out of the track.
In game terms, you can load an arrow into a longbow as a free action (else you would never fire a bow more than once per round) so it seems to me you can load a quarrel into a pre-drawn crossbow in the same amount of time - a free action.
It's drawing the crossbow that takes the time, not fitting the quarrel into the firing track.
So for me, I would see no problem with someone walking down the dungeon corridor, or the forest floor, or desert dunes, or rocking boat deck, or whatever, with a drawn crossbow. Then when he wants to fire it, a free action to load the quarrel would allow him to fire virtually instantly.
But, in game terms, I probably wouldn't allow a ready action unless the quarrel was already in the track.
(note for the picky: I know that bow is drawn and a crossbow is cocked, but it seems the censor here on this forum doesn't like the actual term so I have been using 'drawn' instead).
As a side: historically, a clamp of sorts was used to hold quarrels in the firing track for special purposes, such as castle murder holes, and for crossbowmen to stand atop a castle wall and fire down at a steep angle at attackers near the base of the wall. However, these clips made the quarrel's flight very unstable as it essentially had to burst out of the clip while it was being fired down the firing track. Consequently, this would only be practical for short range firing (murder holes had a maximum line-of-sight of about 40' so the quarrel never had to travel farther than that). If we're still looking for realism, trying to put such a clip on a crossbow would allow more reliable travel with a drawn and loaded crossbow, but would drastically reduce the firing range. Arbitrarily, I would say reduce it to half the listed ranges for the various crossbows.
Another side note: This is not a problem with bows. Arrows are held in place by the archer's forehand (whichever hand he holds the bow with) and the bow is rarely drawn until fired. So a bowman could nock an arrow and walk around with the bow and arrow held in place by one hand, with his other hand free to open doors, shake hands, fight with a sword, whatever. Then when ready, he uses his firing hand to draw the pre-nocked arrow and fire it. No problems at all. But this is nearly impossible with a crossbow (your hand doesn't go anywhere near the firing track) and you wouldn't want to anyway (most crossbows would amputate your finger if you misfired while your fingers were still holding that quarrel in place - a stiff price to try to be one second faster in firing it).
Yet another side note: None of this addresses the wear and tear on stressing the elasticity of the bow/crossbow. The simple physics behind these weapons means that the longer they stay drawn, the weaker they become. Walking around with them drawn all the time is, realistically, a very bad thing for the weapons. I could easily argue that you lose 10' off the range increment, permanently, for every day you keep your weapon drawn. Partial days add up. It would be tedious to track that, so I would just disallow players from ruining their weapons in this fashion.
Final side note: none of this is relevant to game rules. None of this is in the RAW. Only the most hardcore-verisimilitude groups should really care about this stuff. The rest of us can just play with the RAW.
And for any PC using a Light Crossbow and Quick Reload... this is moot anyway as well.
You are also not allowed to move with a loaded backpack, a loaded sack or a loaded question.
But how much does chewing gum reduce your movement speed?
Is there any reason why your character could not have a finger (or thumb) hold the bolt in place while they moved?
After all, one of your hands in holding the "stock" of the crossbow, and it would not be much of a stretch to have a digit of that hand hold the bolt in place.
I think there should be no proble...Ktunk SKLORtch! AAAAArgh! the pain!
There are no rules that I could find on this either. However after seeing a crossbow in action (they have a hair trigger the slightest pressure would set them off) then I would say no. However, should one have a masterwork (or higher) I would allow them to keep it loaded.
There are no rules that I could find on this either. However after seeing a crossbow in action (they have a hair trigger the slightest pressure would set them off) then I would say no. However, should one have a masterwork (or higher) I would allow them to keep it loaded.
Why would a crossbow user need to keep their finger on the trigger while moving?
This isn't any different than with firearms.
I cast "Detect Puns" on Heathansson . . . ;-)
You go blind from the aura.
Tell him not to be so mean to you, you have feelings, too. There are a billion little things in RPGs that don't fit reality (even stuff that exist in the real world, too - I'm not even talking about elves shooting lighting bolts from their hand).
Does he force archers to unstring their bows to avoid damage? Does he complain about the complete insanity of whatever passes for an economic system in the game? Does he agonise over specific ACs of armours against certain kinds of weapons?
If he doesn't, then why do this of all things?
Tell him that if he insists on realistic crossbows, you insist on touch attacks against enemies with plate armour, because crossbows could easily penetrate knights' armour.
There are no rules that I could find on this either. However after seeing a crossbow in action (they have a hair trigger the slightest pressure would set them off) then I would say no. However, should one have a masterwork (or higher) I would allow them to keep it loaded.Why would a crossbow user need to keep their finger on the trigger while moving?
This isn't any different than with firearms.
It wasn't a trigger like a gun....the trigger was actually a pressure plate that ran the length of the stock, so a slight bump on the pressure plate, say by bumping your leg while you are walking, and wham the bolt is released.
So by taking say a masterwork crossbow I'd say you can have it designed to be more like a trigger of a firearm...as well as keeping the bolt locked into place without falling off.
It wasn't a trigger like a gun....the trigger was actually a pressure plate that ran the length of the stock, so a slight bump on the pressure plate, say by bumping your leg while you are walking, and wham the bolt is released.
So by taking say a masterwork crossbow I'd say you can have it designed to be more like a trigger of a firearm...as well as keeping the bolt locked into place without falling off.
Hmm, where did this crossbow come from?
The images and descriptions that I can find for medieval crossbows have levers as triggers, not pressure plates.
"Medieval Crossbows"? Try checking the X-bow picture in the Equipment section, since this is Pathfinder RPG we're discussing, not "Historical Accuracy for X-Bows but Nothing Else RPG".
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I don't see that it would be any different than a crossbow now. I can run down to the flea market and pick up a little hand crossbow for $20. It isn't the most accurate but I can draw it, load a bolt, and walk around with it fairly safely. The string when drawn drops down a notch and is held by the stock. When the trigger is pulled it pushes the string up past the notch to fire the bolt. Now this isn't much of a safety but as long as your not running around like crazy and possibly hitting the string hard enough to bring it out of the notch to fire I see no problem with walking around with it loaded.
I would probably give it a chance of misfire at more than a steady walk.
"Medieval Crossbows"? Try checking the X-bow picture in the Equipment section, since this is Pathfinder RPG we're discussing, not "Historical Accuracy for X-Bows but Nothing Else RPG".
That too has a lever on the underside, not a pressure plate.
As well, most weapons in Pathfinder RPG are based on medieval weapons. I was not looking for historically accurate crossbows, but wondering on where you got the pressure plate image/idea from, as I have not seen or heard of it before (then again, I am not a historian either :) ).
"Medieval Crossbows"? Try checking the X-bow picture in the Equipment section, since this is Pathfinder RPG we're discussing, not "Historical Accuracy for X-Bows but Nothing Else RPG".That too has a lever on the underside, not a pressure plate.
As well, most weapons in Pathfinder RPG are based on medieval weapons. I was not looking for historically accurate crossbows, but wondering on where you got the pressure plate image/idea from, as I have not seen or heard of it before (then again, I am not a historian either :) ).
It was a show, I think on Spike Tv, where they had historical battles that could never happen. In this case it was a Knight VS a Pirate. In there they showed the type of weapons used on both sides and what they did damage wise against an opponent. That's where I got the crossbow reference from.
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I usually rule that you can move with a loaded crossbow as long as you are in combat. Out of combat for an extended period (more than a minute) and you can't leave the crossbow loaded or you risk losing the bolt or eventually ruining the bow. I'm not hugely picky about it - I only developed the rule because players were saying they were walking around town with a loaded crossbow all day.
If the crossbow is held ready, then the bolt should be OK...but you can't have your crossbow hanging at you hip loaded...nor can you have a hand crossbow hanging at your hip loaded....
Just FYI: I found this article where a particular african tribe uses a bit of gum like substance to stick down the otherwise easily disturbed poison darts used in crossbows.
Is this seriously happening, are we actually arguing about whether or not a crossbow can be loaded while a character moves? Why don't we debate the finer points of the Birther movement?
Allow me to blow your collective minds with my blazing enlightenment:
(i) Moving 30 feet as part of a move action is defined as walking. Its on pg. 172, table 7-6.
(ii) If your DM says the bolt falls out while your WALKING then stop playing with him because, much to your dismay, he's the kind of person who's DM-ing when what he really likes to to is make up b!$@~+$% to make sure you know he's in charge. There's a word for that kind of person, he's an "a~!*~!!."
(iii) Based on his logic, casting a fireball should take more than one round, because according to the Poetic Edda, Odin clearly needed more than six seconds to summon the fire runes necessary for such advanced mag... ARE WE SERIOUS!? Also, if you've read the prose edda, don't reply all pissed off, I know Odin never casts a fireball so just stop right there.
(vi) Also, you shouldn't be able to use Smite Evil as a paladin, because every time I pray to Athena to give me the strength to smite (insert x person-you-don't-like, I'm tired of trying to be funny.)
You get the point. And the point is this: The act of having this debate, the very act itself, is ridiculous.
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You get the point. And the point is this: The act of having this debate, the very act itself, is ridiculous.
Do you drive around with the parking brake on?
I ask, because it's the modern day equivalent to walking around with a loaded crossbow. At some point it either breaks or something bad happens.
It's a legitimate concern for a gaming group. Players invariably want everything to go in their favour, so of course if the DM has a surprise encounter they all have their weapons available, drawn, and loaded...except when they don't. The OP was getting at situations when it would not be reasonable to keep a crossbow loaded.
"Medieval Crossbows"? Try checking the X-bow picture in the Equipment section, since this is Pathfinder RPG we're discussing, not "Historical Accuracy for X-Bows but Nothing Else RPG".That too has a lever on the underside, not a pressure plate.
Exactly my point :-)
You get the point. And the point is this: The act of having this debate, the very act itself, is ridiculous.Do you drive around with the parking brake on?
I ask, because it's the modern day equivalent to walking around with a loaded crossbow. At some point it either breaks or something bad happens.
It's a legitimate concern for a gaming group. Players invariably want everything to go in their favour, so of course if the DM has a surprise encounter they all have their weapons available, drawn, and loaded...except when they don't. The OP was getting at situations when it would not be reasonable to keep a crossbow loaded.
Uhm, No.
The original poster was getting at the fact his GM said he couldn't move in combat with a loaded crossbow because the bolt would fall out. That is a VERY different argument. And I kind of agree with DB. It's the GM being a jerk.
If the player wants to walk around with the crossbow loaded at all times, the crossbow starts losing power, and eventually breaks (probably within a week).
If we're talking about walking around in a dungeon for an hour or so while you explore with it loaded and carried in one hand, that's going to require some craft skill checks later to keep it in good working condition. It's not meant for it. But there is no reason for the player to not be able to walk with a loaded crossbow in combat.
You get the point. And the point is this: The act of having this debate, the very act itself, is ridiculous.Do you drive around with the parking brake on?
I ask, because it's the modern day equivalent to walking around with a loaded crossbow. At some point it either breaks or something bad happens.
It's a legitimate concern for a gaming group. Players invariably want everything to go in their favour, so of course if the DM has a surprise encounter they all have their weapons available, drawn, and loaded...except when they don't. The OP was getting at situations when it would not be reasonable to keep a crossbow loaded.
Uhm, No.
The original poster was getting at the fact his GM said he couldn't move in combat with a loaded crossbow because the bolt would fall out. That is a VERY different argument. And I kind of agree with DB. It's the GM being a jerk.
If the player wants to walk around with the crossbow loaded at all times, the crossbow starts losing power, and eventually breaks (probably within a week).
If we're talking about walking around in a dungeon for an hour or so while you explore with it loaded and carried in one hand, that's going to require some craft skill checks later to keep it in good working condition. It's not meant for it. But there is no reason for the player to not be able to walk with a loaded crossbow in combat.
My point EXACTLY. Thank you MDT.
Players shouldn't be prepared all the time, I understand that. And if my group were in a city, and should they be ambushed in some way, I wouldn't ever allow them to have loaded crossbows. Hell I make them don armor if the situation is appropriate, that's just good gaming.