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In my mind; it seems obvious that the way Heighten Spell would work with other metamagic feats is that you would first heighten the spell to the DC level you desire and then add the metamagic feat. For example; if I wanted to cast a Heightened, Silent Fireball at a 5th level spell DC; it would be a 6th level spell: Heighten Spell to 5th level and then apply the Silent Spell feat raising the spell level to 6.
In my last game session, it was suggested that it should not work this way and that you could use the Heighten Spell feat to raise the DC of a Silent Fireball (4th level) to that of a 5th level spell for the cost of a 5th level spell slot.
When I did a forum search for Heighten Spell, there was an archived thread where one poster played it using the first method and another poster played it using the second.
Would people mind chiming in on how they would rule this combination, please?
Thanks!
In my last game session, it was suggested that it should not work this way and that you could use the Heighten Spell feat to raise the DC of a Silent Fireball (4th level) to that of a 5th level spell for the cost of a 5th level spell slot.
Except metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell don't modify the spell's level. A silent fireball is actually a 3rd level spell that uses a 4th level spell slot -- for all purposes involving spell level, it's still a 3rd level spell.
You'd need a 6th level spell slot to cast a Heightened (5th level) Silent Fireball either way.
I tend to agree with you.
However, when reading (or when I'm read) the description of the Heighten Spell feat; I'm confronted with: "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." Which is being used to imply that if you first Silent the spell (a 3rd level spell using up a 4th level slot as you rightly pointed out) then Heighten the spell (use Heighten to raise the effectively 3rd level spell to 5th level) then the spell is no harder to prepare or cast than a 5th level spell.
Now, this interpretation is ripe for abuse: what if I Heighten a Maximized Fireball to 4th level, is it a 4th level spell? Good Heavens No! IMO.
While I do agree with you, I felt it necessary to consider the issue from all sides in case I am making too narrow an interpretation. I really appreciate your feedback, thanks!
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I tend to agree with you.
However, when reading (or when I'm read) the description of the Heighten Spell feat; I'm confronted with: "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." Which is being used to imply that if you first Silent the spell (a 3rd level spell using up a 4th level slot as you rightly pointed out) then Heighten the spell (use Heighten to raise the effectively 3rd level spell to 5th level) then the spell is no harder to prepare or cast than a 5th level spell.
Now, this interpretation is ripe for abuse: what if I Heighten a Maximized Fireball to 4th level, is it a 4th level spell? Good Heavens No! IMO.
While I do agree with you, I felt it necessary to consider the issue from all sides in case I am making too narrow an interpretation. I really appreciate your feedback, thanks!
Metamagic Feats do not normally alter the Spell Level of a spell, merely what slot they must be prepared or cast at. A Silent Fireball is still a 3rd level spell for the purposes of its save DC (10+3+ability mod) and casting on the defensive (15+(3x2)), but must use a 4th level spell slot.
Heighten Spell increases the actual spell level, but does nothing else. Let us assume you want to increase the save DC of the Silent Fireball by 1. You Heighten the spell to become a 4th level spell, then Silent it to use a 5th level spell slot. Fireball's save DC is now increased (10+4+ability mod), although so is the defensive casting DC (15+(4x2)). Because it is now a 4th level spell, it must be prepared as a 5th level spell in order to make use of Silent.
Remember. Apply Heighten Spell first to increase the spell level as high as you wish, then apply any other metamagic feats that change what level you prepare the spell at. All other metamagic feats come after heightening the spell, as they are based off of the initial spell level, which Heighten Spell can alter.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
I tend to agree with you.
However, when reading (or when I'm read) the description of the Heighten Spell feat; I'm confronted with: "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." Which is being used to imply that if you first Silent the spell (a 3rd level spell using up a 4th level slot as you rightly pointed out) then Heighten the spell (use Heighten to raise the effectively 3rd level spell to 5th level) then the spell is no harder to prepare or cast than a 5th level spell.
Now, this interpretation is ripe for abuse: what if I Heighten a Maximized Fireball to 4th level, is it a 4th level spell? Good Heavens No! IMO.
While I do agree with you, I felt it necessary to consider the issue from all sides in case I am making too narrow an interpretation. I really appreciate your feedback, thanks!
Heighten only changes the base level of the spell. Nothing says it over rides other metatmagics. I know you know this, and any interpretation such as your hypothetical one is munchkinism.
A lot of rules are not clearly written, and there are rules, that even though they are clear, can be purposely wrongfully interpreted. I am sure such rules could be written to avoid any loopholes, but to avoid reading a book written in legalese and specifically explaining every scenario, the authors assumed common sense would come into play for most of the rules. If they player lacks common sense or decides to pretend they dont have the DM is the final arbitrator of what does and does not make sense.
This is all very good to remember in the case that you have a wizard with a low intelligence or a sorcerer with a low charisma too.
While those higher level slots can't be used for spells of those levels, you can still use them to metamagic the spells you can cast, since their spell level 'remains' the same as it normally is.
"I know you know this, and any interpretation such as your hypothetical one is munchkinism.
A lot of rules are not clearly written, and there are rules, that even though they are clear, can be purposely wrongfully interpreted. I am sure such rules could be written to avoid any loopholes, but to avoid reading a book written in legalese and specifically explaining every scenario, the authors assumed common sense would come into play for most of the rules. If they player lacks common sense or decides to pretend they dont have the DM is the final arbitrator of what does and does not make sense."
You're correct and I admit that my hypothetical example is an blatant abuse of the rules. Sometimes when dealing with a Rules as Written type argument like this one turned out to be with my player; I resort to the most extreme interpretation to show why I can't use RAW. It's a poor argument technique I need to work on. To be fair, the player wasn't arguing for my maximized 4th level fireball example, but was arguing for a similar spell to the 5th level heightened, silent fireball in the first post.
I definitely agree that the DM is the final arbiter or what does and does not make sense. Sometimes, though, when I find myself saying "no" quite a bit or in a heated argument with a typically level-headed player, I feel I need to step back and consider the argument more thoroughly to be sure it isn't me who is judging hastily. When I searched the forums; I found a single thread with 1 post for and 1 post against what I thought was correct so I thought it prudent to solicit the community for assistance.
Thanks for your thoughts!
EDIT: Thanks too Nethys, for the descriptive interpretation with mechanics, it is very well done.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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This has always been a debated point in 3.0/3.5 WotC world.
They never clarified it in PRPG, which is sad.
As written in PRPG it comes down to two interpretations, neither of which can be proved with the text.
1) You Heighten (LA+0) a Maximized (LA+3) Fireball (3rd) to 6th level and it has the save DC of a 6th level spell dealing Maximize Fireball damage.
2) You Heighten (LA+3) a Maximize (LA+3) Fireball (3rd) to 9th level and it has a save DC of a 6th level spell dealing Maximize Fireball damage.
Since Heighten isn't written with an explicit Level Adjustment equal the the difference in levels between the normal level the spell typically is for you and the higher level you wish to cast the spell, the Heighten effect can be interpreted to be for free (LA+0) if you also combine it with another Level Adjusting Metamagic effect.
I don't like interpretation #1, but I can't defeat it with rules as written.
"I know you know this, and any interpretation such as your hypothetical one is munchkinism.
A lot of rules are not clearly written, and there are rules, that even though they are clear, can be purposely wrongfully interpreted. I am sure such rules could be written to avoid any loopholes, but to avoid reading a book written in legalese and specifically explaining every scenario, the authors assumed common sense would come into play for most of the rules. If they player lacks common sense or decides to pretend they dont have the DM is the final arbitrator of what does and does not make sense."
You're correct and I admit that my hypothetical example is an blatant abuse of the rules. Sometimes when dealing with a Rules as Written type argument like this one turned out to be with my player; I resort to the most extreme interpretation to show why I can't use RAW. It's a poor argument technique I need to work on. To be fair, the player wasn't arguing for my maximized 4th level fireball example, but was arguing for a similar spell to the 5th level heightened, silent fireball in the first post.
I definitely agree that the DM is the final arbiter or what does and does not make sense. Sometimes, though, when I find myself saying "no" quite a bit or in a heated argument with a typically level-headed player, I feel I need to step back and consider the argument more thoroughly to be sure it isn't me who is judging hastily. When I searched the forums; I found a single thread with 1 post for and 1 post against what I thought was correct so I thought it prudent to solicit the community for assistance.
Thanks for your thoughts!
EDIT: Thanks too Nethys, for the descriptive interpretation with mechanics, it is very well done.
The part of my response you posted made it seem like I was arguing with you, but I was not.
I was only stating I know that we agree, and then I went on to explain certain others things. :)
I was under the impression that spell-storing items generally work off the spell slot level required to memorize the spell, rather than the spell level itself.
Is this not the case?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It's not the case, read them carefully. "This item stores three spell levels" Metamagiced spells do not possess higher levels, if they did they would penetrate globe of invulnerability but they do not. They take up a higher level slot to prepare or cast initially, but that doesn't change the nature of the spell.
It's an easy houserule, but that is the RAW.
Again, this is like the Heighten interpretation above. The RAW is both ways ("works off spell level" and "works off slot used") and the FAQ on WotC side was use the slot, ignore the spell level for all things of this type.
These type of differing interpretations is why I lobby for more explicit descriptions in the rules (to foreclose on unusual interpretations.)
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but has any Piazo official ruled in on this yet?
I'm just curious as before recently I really hadn't looked too closely at the metamagic feats, and the potential of Heighten simply stacking freely with other metamagics seems to be something it may well have been intended to do. Essentially, for 2 feats, this would allow a caster to use metamagic (at the +slot penalty), and then bump it's effective level to where it should be in the first place (since it's using the higher slot).
The way I'm reading it, it's like you pay once for the option (1st feat w/metamagic effect), and then you pay again to get it to level equivalent, or higher (this effect, "higher" I'd actually think would be a good place to add an advanced Heighten feat somehow - make the base one something that just adds to/negates spell level loss when combined with other meta magics. The advanced one could then put back in the language of raise the spell's effective level to anything. Alternatively, it could be done with a base feat granting up to a +X spell level status, and the advanced one giving a +Y level status, where Y is significantly higher than X).
Anyway, I'm looking to see if we can get an official thought from Piazo - because really, it looks like it can function both ways. Heighten mentions no level cost or adjustments - at all! It also doesn't say it can't combine with other meta-magics, so yeah ... kind of vague for the moment.
I'm leaning towards the "let 'em combine" option myself, but I'm also considering limiting Heighten as mentioned above, and then creating an Advanced Heighten feat of some sort - so where I'm heading is a 3-deep feat chain (at least - add on more metamagic effects, and it gets deeper still), to let these things combine magically.
So ... any officials reading out there?
*bump*
Is this still up to the DM's call or something?
wow just wow after actually reading what the community has put forth on the matters its VERY clear heighten spell doesnt have a spell slot cost as other metamagics do it changes its effective level to whatever level u want as long as u can cast it allowing you to cast a charm person spell with dc range from (DC 11-19 + sbility modifier) and what ever dc you chose is the strength of the spell and the slot REQUIRED to cast it in.
When combining with other metamagics make it easy for yourself fireball 3 lvl + empower (2)= 5th spell slot required
Fireball 3 lvl + heighten(2 chosen) = 5th spell slot required BECAUSE its a 5th lvl spell
and if your still having problem just ask yourself CAN I CAST a 9th level spell from a 1st level spell slot and if the basic presumption of fair play says NO then you can realize you can't get something for nothing
the only class which allows for the BS people have been spewing is the SANDSHAPER prestige class from sandstorm Improved dust magic and greater dust magic allows 3-5 uses per day to cast and combine metamagic feats on a spell as u cast them but does not require the use of a higher level slot which stacks with heighten spell ergo you could cast an empowered maximized 9th level fireball which equals 90 dmg with DC of 19+ ability modifier BUT did i mention you can only do that if in some sort of desert or wasteland terrain