Let me see if I understood it right:
With Beast shape II a normal human(str10) can change into a large animal (let's say a bear) with str 14 (???)- It looks like a bear, but in fact, it's strong as a dog...
With Baest shape III the same human could turn into an elephant, but it would be just as strong as a horse(???)
Maybe I didn't get it, is the bonus str from the spell an addition to the normal size increase? Did I misread something?
No, you didn't misread anything.
You grasp the function of the spells, and they are not on top of size changes, since those are incorporated into the stat modifiers.
And for the record, this has been brought up before. I'm not chastising, I'm pointing out that you aren't alone in this.
The best reasoning I know of is that this was done to "un-break" Druids with their wild shaping. Everyone else had to suffer the consequences.
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I've not played a druid before...but if you turn into a bear, what kind of attacks and damage can you do - is based on the bear or is it based on the character (and the weapon they're holding?)?
thanks...
You use the bear's natural attacks, rather than your druid's iterative attacks. Your weapons become part of you and inert.
I've not played a druid before...but if you turn into a bear, what kind of attacks and damage can you do - is based on the bear or is it based on the character (and the weapon they're holding?)?
thanks...
It seems you would attack with the natural weapons of a bear with a incredible str bonus of +4...
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that's what I assumed but I also thought that the whole like Beast Shape approach was to minimize the animal lookup slow down. If I still have to know each animal's attacks I still have to look them up...and now i have to account for my new stats?
for example, let's say I turn into a riding dog. If my Str is 10 then my Riding Dog form has a Str of 12. However, the Riding Dog stats show a Str of 15...now my mighty Bite attack is what? Real Riding Dogs have bite +3 with 1d6+3...but that's with a 15 Str...so what does my my Druid Riding Dog get? Bite +2 with 1d6+2?
You'll have to do the math from your own str plus the bonus from the spell, adjusting the damage as well.
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that's what I assumed but I also thought that the whole like Beast Shape approach was to minimize the animal lookup slow down. If I still have to know each animal's attacks I still have to look them up...and now i have to account for my new stats?
for example, let's say I turn into a riding dog. If my Str is 10 then my Riding Dog form has a Str of 12. However, the Riding Dog stats show a Str of 15...now my mighty Bite attack is what? Real Riding Dogs have bite +3 with 1d6+3...but that's with a 15 Str...so what does my my Druid Riding Dog get? Bite +2 with 1d6+2?
it would be d6+1, since 1*1.5 rounded down is 1. but, if you go bear or cat, you get bite/claw/claw using your full attack bonus. and all three would be at +1 for strenth.
It was a nerf to stop druids dump stating things like str and dex and taking on the stats of the animial to become more powerful. I quite like the idea, so like a monk, if you want to have good fighting ability, you need to have good stats.
Creative Director
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The various polymorph spells also address the fact that, under 3.5, every time a new monster book came out, the polymorph spells grew more and more versatile. And since new monsters aren't designed necessarily with game balance in mind for their use as PCs but as monsters, there was an increasing number of problems popping up there as well.
Also: With these spells now granting bonuses to the caster's stats and not simply replacing them with static stats, you keep more of your character in the loop. You're no longer replacing your character with something else as much as you are augmenting yourself. For a 10 STR human, that does mean that changing into a bear gives you a Str 14. But for a spellcaster with a higher Strength, you can easilly end up ABOVE the generic bear's Strength score, which is pretty cool
ALSO: By changing the polymorph spells and doing them like they are in PRPG, you remove the need for characters who change shape to even have a Monster Book handy. They don't need to know a bear's stats; they just apply the spell effects to their character and apply the flavor of "transforming into a bear" and presto! In game, from other character's viewpoints, the end effect is the same. But out of game, the end effect is a lot simpler since now you can easily apply the effects of the transformation without having to rework your entire stat block.
ALSO: By changing the polymorph spells and doing them like they are in PRPG, you remove the need for characters who change shape to even have a Monster Book handy.
Very close, but not quite.
A player still needs to look up movement, movement types, natural attacks, any resistances, and more.
A monster book is still needed, unless the player takes good notes. And if players did that routinely, this part of the argument against polymorph would never have arisen.
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It also works the other way. A normal human changes into a hawk using Beast Shape II, now having Str 8, Dex 14. The dexterity is not as high as a regular hawk, but a Strength of 8 is much higher than a hawk's regular. Add the natural armor bonus, and the flight movement, and its looking quite nice. :)
It was a nerf to stop druids dump stating things like str and dex and taking on the stats of the animial to become more powerful. I quite like the idea, so like a monk, if you want to have good fighting ability, you need to have good stats.
I agree with this as a concept, however what are you suppose to do UNTIL level 4 once you've decided your physical stats are your primary concern? Pretend to be the Fighter's Animal Companion and provide a flank? Point being, I think if this was the route they were going to go, Wildshape should've been added to the options of 'Domain or Companion' as a 3rd play-style at 1st level.
On a similar note, why exactly don't they get access to Beast Shape 4? No Large Magical Beasts for Druids... no Unicorns, no Griffons, no Manticores, etc. You can feasibly have them as cohorts at 10th level, but forget about changing into one of them unless you're an Arcane caster... at which point you have much, much better things to cast.
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ALSO: By changing the polymorph spells and doing them like they are in PRPG, you remove the need for characters who change shape to even have a Monster Book handy. They don't need to know a bear's stats; they just apply the spell effects to their character and apply the flavor of "transforming into a bear" and presto! In game, from other character's viewpoints, the end effect is the same. But out of game, the end effect is a lot simpler since now you can easily apply the effects of the transformation without having to rework your entire stat block.
I agree this concept is way better, but you will still need some book or chart (HINT HINT all you third party publishers out there) that tells you what attacks and their damage you have. I don't know what a bear's bite damage is. An octopus doesn't bite (I think) but I bet he has some grapple-favoring abilities?
Thanks everyone for the clarification.
Interresting question.
If a character uses "Beast Shape" to become a fish, does he/she still drown in water? The spell does not actually state that Water Breathing is available.
Because it's a fishs natural ability and not a "special" ability. It's usually explicitly stated for creatures you usually would not expect to be able to breath water.
Interresting question.
If a character uses "Beast Shape" to become a fish, does he/she still drown in water? The spell does not actually state that Water Breathing is available.
The specific spell, no, it doesn't say anything.
The description of the Polymorph subschool, however, specifically says that "If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain
the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing." (top of page 212).
Interresting question.
If a character uses "Beast Shape" to become a fish, does he/she still drown in water? The spell does not actually state that Water Breathing is available.
The specific spell, no, it doesn't say anything.
The description of the Polymorph subschool, however, specifically says that "If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain
the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing." (top of page 212).
Ah! Thank You!
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So far, the two places they went too far and shouldn't have changed are Cleric Full Plate and Druid Wild Shape.
I'm contemplating adding these house rules:
1) All polymorph school spells that provide a bonus to a stat use the casters stat with the bonus or the printed stat in the book whichever is higher. For spells that provide a penalty, use the casters stat with the penalty or the printed stat whichever is lower.
2) All polymorph school spells also provide any Special Attack of the new form.
3) Druid Wild Shape that provide Special Qualities (such as Enhanced Wild Shape and MoMF 7th level) also provide any Special Quality.
4) Clerics retain the Heavy Armour Proficiency feat.
In addition to all the other crap you need a MM or SRD around, be sure to keep your weapon damage progression handy. A lot of critters get an enhanced natural attack that you have to subtract out. Yay...
Frankly, it would've been better if that 3rd party source included typical bite/claw/rake/slam damages for creatures of the appropriate size, as well as note how much magic enhancement is done to a magical creature's attack.
It's still a big pile of mess, though, and druids generally won't utilize wildshape for combat, unless it's to wildshape from hawk in the sky to an earth elemental.
"small" - 24 tons
"medium" - 27 tons
"large" - 30 tons
I think I'll take the 30' of subdual damage to effectively annihilate the big, bad boss.
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Creative Director
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So yeah... you DO need a MM handy for stuff like speed and attacks, I guess. But it's still a lot more simpler than before, I maintain, and by building off of a PC's scores, it doesn't invalidate those scores and doesn't give spellcasters a free pass to dumpstat their physical scores.
I think I'll take the 30' of subdual damage to effectively annihilate the big, bad boss.Hmm, kinda risky.
The required Attack roll and/or Reflex save coupled with "you take the same amount" means to deal 100 damage to the BBB you take 100 damage and he can save for half.
That's why the bard greases his square first. :))
The best reasoning I know of is that this was done to "un-break" Druids with their wild shaping. Everyone else had to suffer the consequences.
I've seen wizard players abuse this as well.
The change was made to fix the problem that physically weaker characters were the better shapeshifters - because they're so weak, they're getting a higher bonus to their stats, since their str 6 turns into str 24, so it's +18; also, they get to use bad rolls/few points for their strength and so on and put all the good rolls/a lot more points into their spellcasting attribute.
So the Gnome Sorcerer with Str 5 and Cha 20 will be a lot more powerful as a polymorpher than the Half-Orc Sorcerer with Str 20 and Cha 14.
And, of course, the old ruling meant that powergamers would go through monster books with a fine-toothed comb to find a critter that would give them even better stats and powers. This cuts down on this.
If you (as the GM) don't have a problem with this, you can always change it back or use the 3e versions (any polymorph/wildshape version of your choice. 3e/3.5 had about a killion different versions as they continuously tried to fix the spells)
I have no problem with the wildshape and polymorph changes, my beef is with Shapechange. Its not really a 9th level spell anymore. Compared to timestop and gate, it is pretty weak now.
The rules around polymorph NEEDED to be cleared up, and I think they have done a good job. The main problem in 3.5 was that it was very wroughtable. As James said, the monster manual weren't designed to think about how a druid could change into one of them, just how the monster is going to work.
That was countered slightly by loosing all your magic items when changed, but when they brought out wild clasps to keep your items on, then it became totally wroughtable.
Now the whole thing could easily be stopped by the DM saying no and requiring harder restrictions for being familar with an animal, but alas the power gamers won.
The whole idea of changing into something that is still based on your stats (with some increases) really works for me. Why should it make you the "perfect" specimen of the race by uping your stats, and the same time why gain every ability of that creature. There is no other spells that give the same amount of increases in one round.
So becoming a animal / creature with slightly better stats and increased abilties with the spell progression, and the ability to retain all ongoing magic abilities is IMHO a great change.
I can understand why mages find why its a nerf when compared to other spells, but I'm running a high level game where the game uses form of the dragon to great effect...
I'm a bit confused by one thing.
Was the intent that druids not have access to beast shape IV? It gives the tiny/large magical beast types.
I only ask, because they *do* get access to elemental body IV. Which lets you turn into a *huge* elemental.
Was this left out intentionally or accidentally?
-Campbell
I'm a bit confused by one thing.
Was the intent that druids not have access to beast shape IV? It gives the tiny/large magical beast types.
I only ask, because they *do* get access to elemental body IV. Which lets you turn into a *huge* elemental.
Was this left out intentionally or accidentally?
-Campbell
Intentionally. Wildshape only allows regular animal, plant, and elemental forms. No magical beasts.
Intentionally. Wildshape only allows regular animal, plant, and elemental forms. No magical beasts.I'm a bit confused by one thing.
Was the intent that druids not have access to beast shape IV? It gives the tiny/large magical beast types.
I only ask, because they *do* get access to elemental body IV. Which lets you turn into a *huge* elemental.
Was this left out intentionally or accidentally?
-Campbell
[incorrect statement that they get access to the magical beast forms from beast shape III]
EDIT: Sorry, I stand corrected.
"When taking the form of animals, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape III"
Sorry.
Why should it make you the "perfect" specimen of the race by uping your stats, and the same time why gain every ability of that creature. There is no other spells that give the same amount of increases in one round.
While there might not be other spells that give the power, monster stats weren't "perfect." They were average. Which is why it is a bit hard to accept for some people that an average stat caster often times can't get to the average stats of the alternate form.
I'm thinking about abilities (feats? spells?) That grant druids access to other forms as part of their wildshape.
In fact, I think I'll do them right now.
I'm thinking about abilities (feats? spells?) That grant druids access to other forms as part of their wildshape.
In fact, I think I'll do them right now.
Such as Master of Many Forms PrC?
I would *very* much be interested in a product containing any of the above (or the shifter PrC)
While the beast shape currently has some oddities, for me it is one of the more reasonable systems as far as granting abilities while being pretty simple for a polymorph chain. While it doesn't allow an average caster to become an average bear with one spell, the limitations I myself would attach to a caster desiring +8 Strength, +2 Dexterity, and +4 Constitution would make turning into a bear into a bit of a higher level spell. Similarly the ability scores of an elephant would make it so I would probably never see anyone turn into one.
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ALSO: By changing the polymorph spells and doing them like they are in PRPG, you remove the need for characters who change shape to even have a Monster Book handy.Very close, but not quite.
A player still needs to look up movement, movement types, natural attacks, any resistances, and more.
A monster book is still needed, unless the player takes good notes. And if players did that routinely, this part of the argument against polymorph would never have arisen.
A monster book is NOT needed, as the wild shape specifically mentions that the druid can only wildshape into forms he is personally familiar with. I'd let them choose 1d6+WIS forms at level 1, and after that, they'd need to encounter them in play. This way the player can find out the abilities and natural attacks of each form OUT of play, before the game, and come ready with a sheet listing each form's abilities.
A monster book is NOT needed, as the wild shape specifically mentions that the druid can only wildshape into forms he is personally familiar with. I'd let them choose 1d6+WIS forms at level 1, and after that, they'd need to encounter them in play. This way the player can find out the abilities and natural attacks of each form OUT of play, before the game, and come ready with a sheet listing each form's abilities.ALSO: By changing the polymorph spells and doing them like they are in PRPG, you remove the need for characters who change shape to even have a Monster Book handy.Very close, but not quite.
A player still needs to look up movement, movement types, natural attacks, any resistances, and more.
A monster book is still needed, unless the player takes good notes. And if players did that routinely, this part of the argument against polymorph would never have arisen.
So... In other words... The bolded and italicised sections above?
So... In other words... The bolded and italicised sections above?A monster book is NOT needed, as the wild shape specifically mentions that the druid can only wildshape into forms he is personally familiar with. I'd let them choose 1d6+WIS forms at level 1, and after that, they'd need to encounter them in play. This way the player can find out the abilities and natural attacks of each form OUT of play, before the game, and come ready with a sheet listing each form's abilities.ALSO: By changing the polymorph spells and doing them like they are in PRPG, you remove the need for characters who change shape to even have a Monster Book handy.Very close, but not quite.
A player still needs to look up movement, movement types, natural attacks, any resistances, and more.
A monster book is still needed, unless the player takes good notes. And if players did that routinely, this part of the argument against polymorph would never have arisen.
the difference is you wont be digging through the monster books to find the 'perfect' monster. There is a limit to what you can gain, so you can look ahead of time for a few monsters that get those couple abilities and what kind of natural attacks they get. That is different from the large host of abilities you could have gotten, and different physical stats for every monster you change into.
So yeah... you DO need a MM handy for stuff like speed and attacks, I guess. But it's still a lot more simpler than before, I maintain, and by building off of a PC's scores, it doesn't invalidate those scores and doesn't give spellcasters a free pass to dumpstat their physical scores.
I respectfully disagree.
In 3.5, you needed a monster book. You opened to the page and pointed at the monster and said "That's me. I move, fight, etc., just like it says right here." No math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all.
In Pathfinder, you still need a monster book. You open to the page and point at the monster and say "Ok, that's what I look like, but it's not me. Hold on while I recalculate several physical ability scores, adjust the attack values listed in the monster book, recalculate these numbers, and yeah, OK, who brought a calculator?"
It's not easier, it's harder.
And it's weaker, too, except in corner cases ("OK, the Storm Giant druid wildshapes into a Bear with a STR of 40").
And now druids need STR, DEX, CON, WIS, and some CHA and INT in order to use all their class abilities to the fullest. They went from physical dump stats to the most MAD character class in the game.
And I truly feel sorry for the player who builds a point-buy druid and finally gets his Wildshape ability then rushes into combat only to get spanked hard by any level-appropriate encounters. That's going to be a serious eye-opener when it happens, and it will.
I know the 3.5 druid was overpowered. But there's a difference between toning wildshape down and ripping it apart.
I respectfully disagree.
In 3.5, you needed a monster book. You opened to the page and pointed at the monster and said "That's me. I move, fight, etc., just like it says right here." No math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all.
In Pathfinder, you still need a monster book. You open to the page and point at the monster and say "Ok, that's what I look like, but it's not me. Hold on while I recalculate several physical ability scores, adjust the attack values listed in the monster book, recalculate these numbers, and yeah, OK, who brought a calculator?"
It's not easier, it's harder.
I need to pipe in a respectful disagreement here DM-Blake as well. You said "no math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all" but you would still need to take the MM entry and factor in your own BAB, mental stats, saves etc.
I need to pipe in a respectful disagreement here DM-Blake as well. You said "no math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all" but you would still need to take the MM entry and factor in your own BAB, mental stats, saves etc.
I respectfully disagree.
In 3.5, you needed a monster book. You opened to the page and pointed at the monster and said "That's me. I move, fight, etc., just like it says right here." No math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all.
In Pathfinder, you still need a monster book. You open to the page and point at the monster and say "Ok, that's what I look like, but it's not me. Hold on while I recalculate several physical ability scores, adjust the attack values listed in the monster book, recalculate these numbers, and yeah, OK, who brought a calculator?"
It's not easier, it's harder.
Ah, well, you're right about the BAB, but you've already got your mental stats on your character sheet. A 3.5 druid wildshaped into a bear had the druid's INT, WIS, and CHA scores, right? (Been a while, maybe I've forgotten something).
So yeah, subract the bear's BAB from yours and add the remainder to the attacks. Still way less math than recalculating all the figures the Beast Shape spells + animal form + Druid stats bring to the Pathfinder equation.
I need to pipe in a respectful disagreement here DM-Blake as well. You said "no math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all" but you would still need to take the MM entry and factor in your own BAB, mental stats, saves etc.
I respectfully disagree.
In 3.5, you needed a monster book. You opened to the page and pointed at the monster and said "That's me. I move, fight, etc., just like it says right here." No math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all.
In Pathfinder, you still need a monster book. You open to the page and point at the monster and say "Ok, that's what I look like, but it's not me. Hold on while I recalculate several physical ability scores, adjust the attack values listed in the monster book, recalculate these numbers, and yeah, OK, who brought a calculator?"
It's not easier, it's harder.
Ah, well, you're right about the BAB, but you've already got your mental stats on your character sheet. A 3.5 druid wildshaped into a bear had the druid's INT, WIS, and CHA scores, right? (Been a while, maybe I've forgotten something).
So yeah, subract the bear's BAB from yours and add the remainder to the attacks. Still way less math than recalculating all the figures the Beast Shape spells + animal form + Druid stats bring to the Pathfinder equation.
Then there are feats to consider, pretty sure that you didn't get the benefits of those Weapon Focus (claws), Improved Natural Attack, and Multiattack. So you have to edit those out depending on that along with applying your own feats. After that there would be the issue of any magical spells effecting the druid. Hit points need to be recalculated still. Have to get the new Fortitude save and Reflex save since it uses your base saves, right? Then skills followed by magic items that still work after the transformation.
I'm not really seeing it being it being that much easier, if it is even easier at all.
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I need to pipe in a respectful disagreement here DM-Blake as well. You said "no math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all" but you would still need to take the MM entry and factor in your own BAB, mental stats, saves etc.
I respectfully disagree.
In 3.5, you needed a monster book. You opened to the page and pointed at the monster and said "That's me. I move, fight, etc., just like it says right here." No math, no recalculating, no playing with numbers at all.
In Pathfinder, you still need a monster book. You open to the page and point at the monster and say "Ok, that's what I look like, but it's not me. Hold on while I recalculate several physical ability scores, adjust the attack values listed in the monster book, recalculate these numbers, and yeah, OK, who brought a calculator?"
It's not easier, it's harder.
Ah, well, you're right about the BAB, but you've already got your mental stats on your character sheet. A 3.5 druid wildshaped into a bear had the druid's INT, WIS, and CHA scores, right? (Been a while, maybe I've forgotten something).
So yeah, subract the bear's BAB from yours and add the remainder to the attacks. Still way less math than recalculating all the figures the Beast Shape spells + animal form + Druid stats bring to the Pathfinder equation.
Not sure how your math argument stands up DM Blake... in Pathfinder you need to make the math only ONCE per beast shape spell (so a whopping 3 times for Beast Shape I, II, and III, etc. for plant and elemental spells) You can have the different iterations ready in the "weapons" field of your character sheet (instead of "short sword", you can have "beast shape I medium", "beast shape II large", etc.) Damage will usually be 1d6 for medium, 1d8 for large, etc. So you don't need to flip to the MM entries in play; just have a fave build for "beast shape medium I" ready in one of your weapons field...
Way easier than recalculating the bloody BAB/Total hit number every single time you morph...
I have t say, I think the new version works out better. You know what your stats will be when you use the ability. You really don't have to have the MM handy. You need a block with your mods for the spell in question, which will do for all the forms you assume with the spell, and then a short list of the natural weapons and gained abilities. Much easier, much faster, and much more balanced.
And yes, it may seem to have inflicted MAD on the druid. But no more so than any spellcaster is MAD.
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I'm glad that Wild Shape and Polymorph got nerfed... our second 3rd Edition campaign featured a human druid who virtually broke the game; our poor DM was constantly surprised by his tricks, and as started to increase the difficulty of encounters, the rest of us ended up being mere "minions" to the druid (i.e. constantly slain as we defended him long enough for him to cast the right spells).
Yeah, a pack of summoned Dire animals + Greater Magic Fang + Enlarge Animals = win (and when this wasn't enough at high levels, he started to Shapechange into a Great Wyrm). Dire Wolves were great with their Trip ability, because they would surround the target and pin it easily... and then one of the PCs would coup de grace the enemy.
I like how the new wild shape is more balanced however I wish the druid got a little more between level 12 and 20 for thier wild shape other than a few more times per day.
My main gripe with Beast shape is that the bonuses are of the enhancement type. I wish they were nameless bonuses so you could still buff your druid with spells like bull's strength to become even somewhat viable as a melee fighter.
A small earth elemental shape is quite fun though for defense. Cast a spell, then glide 5 feet into the ground for melee immunity and no line of sight. You can do this every other round ;-)
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My main gripe with Beast shape is that the bonuses are of the enhancement type. I wish they were nameless bonuses so you could still buff your druid with spells like bull's strength to become even somewhat viable as a melee fighter.
A small earth elemental shape is quite fun though for defense. Cast a spell, then glide 5 feet into the ground for melee immunity and no line of sight. You can do this every other round ;-)
Uhm, this gripe is no longer true. In the final version they are SIZE bonuses, and so stack with enhancement bonuses.
Beast Shape I
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.
Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.