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Hey, never played PFS before just homegames. Looking at playing a few sessions at GenConOz. I have a nice concept for a cleric of Pharasma but I am worried that he won't be terribly useful except as a support character. Little armour, just a dagger, no Str, more of a pure spell caster with a few social skills.
How important is it in PFS to be optimised and how much is character flavour? I know in RPGA you would just about get shot for coming to a con with a non combat orientaed character.
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Contributor
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Hey, never played PFS before just homegames. Looking at playing a few sessions at GenConOz. I have a nice concept for a cleric of Pharasma but I am worried that he won't be terribly useful except as a support character. Little armour, just a dagger, no Str, more of a pure spell caster with a few social skills.
How important is it in PFS to be optimised and how much is character flavour? I know in RPGA you would just about get shot for coming to a con with a non combat orientaed character.
I can't speak for everyone Snow Crash, but when I write a mod, I try my hardest to through in encounters and challenges which will result horribly if people hack their way through them.
Oh and characters with little armor have a much easier time swimming.Characters who wear platemail sink like stones.
All in all though the PFS mods are pretty solid when it comes to providing role-play challenges.
In fact, faction missions are almost entirely role-playing.
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In fact, faction missions are almost entirely role-playing.
...when they happen to be something else than "fetch me this MacGuffin".
I'd rank the scenarios being more rollplay than roleplay. Four hour games with 5 combat encounters squeezed into it make it heavy, the middle points just being gateways to just another combat.
Also, to a varying degree, diplomacy and other charisma-based skills seem rather useless, as many combats are forced by the plot. Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch is notorious for making plot device combats more than you can count.
But after all it depends on the crowd you play with. In a convention environment the time limits are more of a real thing, but in a home game environment you could easily loosen up and not hurry to the finish line.
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In a convention environment the time limits are more of a real thing, but in a home game environment you could easily loosen up and not hurry to the finish line.
Unfortunately it would be pretty mucha character just for the cons. Any time we have a home game I am usually DMing an AP.
The Character I had in mind is a noncombatant who has a few buff spells and lots of healing so I would pretty much be running round the battlefield trying not to be hit whilst healing everyone.
Would I be better off playing my Gnome Paladin(not as much character or social skills but more usefull on the battlefield)?
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In a convention environment the time limits are more of a real thing, but in a home game environment you could easily loosen up and not hurry to the finish line.Unfortunately it would be pretty mucha character just for the cons. Any time we have a home game I am usually DMing an AP.
The Character I had in mind is a noncombatant who has a few buff spells and lots of healing so I would pretty much be running round the battlefield trying not to be hit whilst healing everyone.
Would I be better off playing my Gnome Paladin(not as much character or social skills but more usefull on the battlefield)?
That's actually not a bad character concept at all. Even though you describe said character as a "non-combatant" you've obviously got a combat role figured out for him. As long as buffing and healing is something you want to do in the long term it's not a bad idea at all.
With that said, I actually think that the OP is presenting us with a loaded question, the idea being that noncombat encounters are "role-playing" while combat encounters are "roll-playing," which is simply not true. Even something as mundane as a scuffle with some monsters in a cavern can be a tremendously entertaining role-playing encounter if players get their head out of the battlemat for a while and describe what their characters are doing in enough detail for their actions to seem to be inspired by their personas. I do, however, realize that when the battle map is drawn up people tend to go into a tactical wargame mode where their characters become pieces to play with and I'm also very guilty of this to some degree.
So, the amount of roleplaying in any Pathfinder Society scenario is directly proportional to how much of their characters the players bring in to the scenarios. Here in Finland I've taken part in scenarios which have been rife with truly awesome role-playing in spite of the fact that the scenarios have been rather on the combat-heavy side.
But yeah, as I now believe that the OP's intention was to find out how many combat encounters as opposed to non-combat encounters there are in Pathfinder Society scenarios, I'd say that the scenarios lean to the side of combat-heavy, with a few scenarios I've seen which allow for diplomatic trickery. Now, combat-heavy doesn't mean "detrimental to roleplaying," one just needs to find a good balance of tactical play and characterization when those combat encounters do get underway.
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I can't speak for everyone Snow Crash, but when I write a mod, I try my hardest to through in encounters and challenges which will result horribly if people hack their way through them.
All in all though the PFS mods are pretty solid when it comes to providing role-play challenges.
In fact, faction missions are almost entirely role-playing.
I guess it all comes down to who else is playing. I know in a homegame we would all roleplay our asses off, but my Convention experiences have been soured by RPGA. When I rolled up my first RPGA character (funny how we say rolled up when there is no actually rolling any more in character design) the organiser looked over my shoulder and said "Oooh, I would get rid of those points in Cha and add them to Con. You need all the HP you can get"
I know a lot of the RPGA modules are written with roleplaying opportunities in them but most of the time the GMs are ill prepared and the players are more interested in Min/Maxing than character development. like the GM who when the players said they would like to visit the local law enforcement, frantically thumbed through the module that he obviuosly wasn't familiar with for 10min before saying "Sorry the module doesn't say what happens if you visit them, so you can't go there. Where else would you like to go?" Which was followed by the payers giving him this blank unbelieving stare for about 30 sec before replying "OK we'll head towards the first encounter then." This put a big smile on the GMs face cause now his module was back on track and he could deal with the combat.
Judging from what I've read on the forums though, players who choose PFRPG seem to be a bit more about character development than min/maxing, so hopefully this is a good sign.
Just wanted to check before I turned up to a Convention with a Cleric in no armour, armed with only a silver dagger and a whole lotta backstory.
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The easy answer to this the original poster's question would be "it depends". Many of the modules are very combat -heavy. Most have some role-playing opportunities, but off the cuff I can think of only one module which has an encounter that lets you avoid combat by using diplomacy. Most of the others have railroaded scripts that force the characters to resort to combat. Five combat encounters is a lot for four hours of gaming, which leaves very little elbow room for other kinds of scenes or any kind of "sandboxing".
The other "it depends" is the people you play with. Even at conventions there are players who will stay in character during the game. The type you're more likely to run into at conventions, however, is the combat monkey who doesn't contribute one iota to the game session's immersive qualities. Instead he just sits there in silence, until the GM calls for initiative, at which point he turns into Hack McMasher and procedes to tactically tear the encounter into pieces using his superior rules savvy, and (sometimes) meta-gaming rules points and opponents' weaknesses shamelessly.
Anyway, your character definitely isn't a non-combatant. As a buffer he has a clear-cut battlefield role, which contributes immensely to the success of the adventuring party. The buffer might be boring to play, though (GM: "Ok, what do you do?" Bard's player: "I continue singing."), so you'd better prepare for this.
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Hey, never played PFS before just homegames. Looking at playing a few sessions at GenConOz. I have a nice concept for a cleric of Pharasma but I am worried that he won't be terribly useful except as a support character. Little armour, just a dagger, no Str, more of a pure spell caster with a few social skills.
How important is it in PFS to be optimised and how much is character flavour? I know in RPGA you would just about get shot for coming to a con with a non combat orientaed character.
A Cleric who focuses on pure spellcasting and has some social skills is absolutely going to work fine. Clerics *can* tank. That doesn't mean that you have to.
If you sit down at a table with a bunch of optimized friends who play together, they may be pissy that you didn't design your character to their specifications, but that happens at *any* convention game, organized play or random table. Your best experiences will be with random groups of people who don't know each other, since they won't be as prone to teaming up on people who don't do things the way they do them, which, in the fashion of set-in-their-ways dads everywhere, is 'the right way.'
You might find role-playing opportunities stymied by the rush, rush, rush nature of convention play. If you are doing a mod at home and don't have a four hour time limit that a bunch of strangers at the table paid money to get through, you'll have a lot more patience with a bit of extended role-playing or character establishment / development.
While I haven't done Pathfinder organized play at a convention yet, I've played RPGA games, and you'll get the generic mix of people who praise you for great detail or a cool effect description in the use of a class ability, and others who will roll their eyes, waiting impatiently for their turn. Everyone enjoys the game in their own way, and the ones who want to burn through the mission quickly have their own idea of fun (and I'm just as fond of that technique, when everyone at the table has agreed that the adventure is a 'race' to the crunchity center of the mob, with my fondest Dungeon Delve recollection being a game with three of the five players being barbarians, who had to stop a few times just so that the cleric could be *in the same room with them,* but never stood still long enough for her to heal anyone...).
Just watch out for killer mods. It can be particularly frustrating to know that the party died, and it was no fault at all of anyone present, nor even attributable to 'bad rolls,' as merely average rolls resulted in a TPK, because the encounter was poorly designed.
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I can't speak for everyone Snow Crash, but when I write a mod, I try my hardest to through in encounters and challenges which will result horribly if people hack their way through them.
Oh and characters with little armor have a much easier time swimming.
Characters who wear platemail sink like stones.All in all though the PFS mods are pretty solid when it comes to providing role-play challenges.
In fact, faction missions are almost entirely role-playing.
Funnily enough, Mr. Hitchcock's modules, although usually rather combat heavy, also contain some of the most role-playing intensive scenes the Society modules have to offer. All of them (The Hydra's Fang Incident, To Scale the Dragon, Decline of Glory) have super-lethal combats which will result in TPK's if the group's tactics suck. This in itself is a very effective incentive to think about what you are doing instead of just trying to bulldoze your way through the encounters.
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Could be interesting...the first mod I've signed up for is shipyard rats :-) which I believe claimed a few TPKs at Gencon09.
I ran Shipyard Rats about a week ago and found the combat encounters ridiculously easy. Although the probable cause of this is space limitations, where the writer was forced to bump tiers by adding mooks instead of the more sensible approach of building the encounters separately for each tier. The perceived difficulty of the module is at tier 1-2, where...
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Just watch out for killer mods.Could be interesting...the first mod I've signed up for is shipyard rats :-) which I believe claimed a few TPKs at Gencon09.
By my count no less than 8 TPKs for that mod; all of which were at the low end tier. DMs should watch for that particular encounter, which can be (and has been) a party killer.
My advice on what PFS character you should play/build:
Play the character you WANT to play.
And of course pick Cheliax as your faction.
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My advice on what PFS character you should play/build:Play the character you WANT to play.
Good advice. Go with that. BUT do take into consideration that the Pathfinder Society Organized Play is to a degree a very competitive gaming environment, more so than most home games. There are modules out there that are absolutely lethal, and there are some pretty darn ruthless GM's running the games who WILL pull out all the stops to kill your character. So, when designing that particular character that you really want to play, make sure of that your character can:
a) Contribute in a meaningful way. Otherwise you're just dead weight and will most likely have a rather dreary gaming experience.
b) Survive. This means build a character that has decent defenses (HP, AC, defensive spells, whatnot), and/or decent tactical acumen (if the poop hits the fan, run away rather than die miserably).
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I share the frustration of role-play vs roll-play in the PFS scenarios. What I have found is even scenarios that scream "role-play!" many players will ignore the opportunity and roll for init instead. It's the GM's fault too, since the way that GMs set up an encounter can influence the players if it's a role-play situation or not. I have found that the more I run a scenario the more comfortable I become with introducing role-play into what would otherwise be a combat encounter. Conversely when I am not prepared to run an adventure I tend to push toward the combats where I feel more comfortable.
Even in great role-play scenarios like Decline of Glory I would see players ignore the RP hooks and roll for init. However, in their defense I will note that if you role-play your way past encounters in PFS you will get screwed on gold in the end. Decline of Glory is a perfect example. I had a party talk their way past the first act by making an arrangement with Krechmoor. They tried to circumvent the fight in the swamp but I forced them into it because they would have missed another chance to get some loot. Then I remembered that Season One would wipe the slate clean and I relaxed. I don’t want to add anymore spoilers so all I’ll say is they role-played past the final encounter and ended up with almost nothing for their troubles. With the start of Season One it was all a wash. But I do think that the way that PFS scenarios are designed, combat is expected to take place and role-players may feel like they are being punished sometimes.
I *really* hope that in future scenarios we will see a break from the linear plots that have prevailed in Season One. A matrix-style investigatory scenario would be A) a nice change of pace and B) allow players who have had a chance to get familiar with Golarion have an opportunity to explore without feeling like they’re getting dragged by the plot hook.
Really the reason I'm posting is to greet a fellow Pharasmite. I too have a cleric of Pharasma with a 7 strength who doesn’t wear armor. I played her through Season 0 and got her up to 6th level without ever getting dropped into negative HPs. Having an AC 11 just meant I played her more like a wizard than a fontline cleric. It kind of disappointed me that I never got knocked down since I took the “Stay Death’s Embrace” faction feat and never once used it. Pharasma’s clergy are concerned with not only death, but birth as well. I took Profession (Midwife) as well as Profession (Mortician) and Profession (Barrister). I really like the Profession skills since they lend to developing a PC’s interests and motivations.
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Really the reason I'm posting is to greet a fellow Pharasmite. I too have a cleric of Pharasma with a 7 strength who doesn’t wear armor. I played her through Season 0 and got her up to 6th level without ever getting dropped into negative HPs. Having an AC 11 just meant I played her more like a wizard than a fontline cleric. It kind of disappointed me that I never got knocked down since I took the “Stay Death’s Embrace” faction feat and never once used it. Pharasma’s clergy are concerned with not only death, but birth as well. I took Profession (Midwife) as well as Profession (Mortician) and Profession (Barrister). I really like the Profession skills since they lend to developing a PC’s interests and motivations.
Ahh this post gives me hope. Maybe I shall take my cleric. Sounds very similar, Str 7, I was thinking of wearing leather under my robes and pretty much playing him as a battlefield medic. I almost see him as a pacifist, "There is no reason to rush people on to a meeting with my good lady. She is patient and all will come to stand before her eventually, king and pauper alike."
Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads
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Hey, never played PFS before just homegames. Looking at playing a few sessions at GenConOz. I have a nice concept for a cleric of Pharasma but I am worried that he won't be terribly useful except as a support character. Little armour, just a dagger, no Str, more of a pure spell caster with a few social skills.
How important is it in PFS to be optimised and how much is character flavour? I know in RPGA you would just about get shot for coming to a con with a non combat orientaed character.
Oh and characters with little armor have a much easier time swimming.
Characters who wear platemail sink like stones.All in all though the PFS mods are pretty solid when it comes to providing role-play challenges.
In fact, faction missions are almost entirely role-playing.
AKA the scenario Hydra's Fang Incident comes to mind........and I SO meant to tell you all about that at GenCon but I got all flustered trying to some something all I got out was congrats for being Tim.
The scenario's all have roleplaying and hack and slash. The 2 biggest factors on HOW the sessions play out is
1. Your group, How the team playing overall wants to play.
2. Time, At CONS yourr time is a bigger problem then anything else. Roleplaying tends to eat more time. At home games time isn't a factor so much.
Other big factors are the DM and then the actual scenerio. DM's want you to have FUN and complete the mission. Roleplaying is what this game is all about. Not mini's on a map.
Some scenario's can be tad hack and slash which is fine. In many cases your diplomacy check = your Attack Bonus because the bad guys don't negotiate.
to make a LONG post short. It is what you make it. Have fun with it
PS DONT FORGET to PUMP your SWIM SKILLS! ;-)
I am looking at you Tim!
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As an Andoran, I spend most of my time freeing people, be it slaves from the vile Chelaxians, or freeing the vile Chelaxians from their own wicked ways. Every once in a while, I do get the pleasure of piercing the heart of a vile creature (or Chelaxian) with my arrow, but that actually ends up being a minority of my time.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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My recommendation regarding role-playing at a convention:
It's important to come up with a hook that all your new friends sitting around the table can understand immediately. Don't go for subtle characterizations reflecting a strange and exotic backstory. Go for easy-to-grasp stuff.
"I'm an elf, raised by dwarves and immersed in the dwarven way of life."
"I'm a paladin who acts like he's on a football squad."
"I'm a sexy, whip-wielding cleric of Callistra, nominally in the service of Cheliax."
If it takes much longer than that to explain your PC's personality, odds are good you're building something better suited for your home game.
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Though I love Roleplaying, sometimes it can be hard to allow a lot of roleplaying at a Convention because of the limited amount of time you have. I think all the scenarios allow room for roleplaying but the time you have to play cuts it short. Though I felt bad about this, I actually had to hurry a group along at GenCon because the Roleplaying was taking up to much time and we were running out!
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Hi Snow Crash :-)
Most of what has been said above is all good advice. I'll add a few of my own suggestions based on my own Living Greyhawk / Living Arcanis convention experiences as a player, and some insight into having GMed a large number of the Pathfinder Society scenarios (though I'll break them into individual posts, so they don't get eaten by the messageboards).
@CrisMortika:
I was just about to post much the same point. You won't get an opportunity to reveal your richly detailed or subtly nuanced character background to players at each table you game with. Having a "hook" that others can easily recognise is the key. Players may discover more about your character over the course of several sessions, or even several conventions, if they're fortunate enough to play at the same table as you, or exchanging character stories between game sessions.
I'll add my own character example to the ones Chris listed above: a half-orc monk who described himself as "half-human", not "half-orc" and who never deals lethal damage to a fellow half-orc or orc.
You'll also find within Pathfinder Society that your faction provides a solid hook for your character.
Also allow room for the scenarios you play to shape your character. It's good to have character background to provide motivations for your actions, but not so rigidly that your character can't grow and incorporate experiences from the adventures and companions she travels with.
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@Dragnmoon:
I've certainly had this situation, both as a player and GM. Sometimes it's trickly to know how much of a scenario to spend on information gathering (diplomacy and roleplaying opportunities), and how much to reserve for combat, particularly if the information gathering phase is important for what is to follow, or when the players are enjoying the roleplaying. Unfortunately, the GM often needs to push things along to keep the pace moving to ensure the players have time to complete each encounter. It's a bit of a balancing act, and we don't always get it right.
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@SnowCrash:
As others have mentioned, if your Cleric has a clearly defined and useful role within the adventuring group, I think it will work fine. The key is ensuring your character is an asset to the group, and not a liability. If you're buffing other members to their full potential, and saving the group's ass with healing, and throw in some characterisation so players will have something to remember you by, then I'd say that was a pretty successful character.
Clerics not automatically having proficiency with heavy armour is a good opportunity for an alternate build, and using the heavy armour feat for something else, Selective Channeling maybe, so you can heal your party members without healing your enemies.
A couple of notes regarding healing:
I think healing is likely to be more available within Pathfinder RPG than previously, players seem attracted by the new channel energy mechanic, and at a table of six, there's a 50/50 chance you may not be the only class of that type at the table.
On the other hand, I've also seen a number of Chelish Clerics in service to Asmodeus, Norgorber or other dubious powers - there's often an audible groan at the table when the players realise they're adventuring with a Cleric who won't be providing healing.
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The other "it depends" is the people you play with.
Unfortunately, this is very true.
I played a scenario once where someone was held captive inside a locked cage in the middle of a bandit camp at night. The PCs included some Roguey stealth, as well as Wizardy access to Invisibilty and Dimension Door. The players spent a full 20-30 mins formulating their rescue plan, when just as they were about to implement it, one player shouted "Chaaaarrrrgggge!" and ran screaming into the camp, alerting every bandit and spoiling 20-30 mins of careful planning. There were five other players at the table ready to kill his character right then and there.
Sometimes there's just no avoiding disruptive players.
There are modules out there that are absolutely lethal, and there are some pretty darn ruthless GM's running the games who WILL pull out all the stops to kill your character.
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However... it depends on the GM and the other players. Even a scenario that doesn't prepare you well enough for the other options can be loosened up if the GM really reads the module and gets a feel for what is important to keep as-is and what can be reasonably improvised.
This is also true. I've GMed a few scenarios three or four times now, and they're the ones I feel a lot more comfortable "winging it". If you're running a scenario for the first time, you usually play it by the book.
Having said that, the rules for Diplomacy are pretty clearly laid out in the skill description, and players should be allowed an attempt to avoid combat by changing an opponent's attitude if the situation allows.
I find that most Pathfinder Society scenarios do present opportunities for roleplay, I can think of specific scenes within most scenarios, without giving away any spoilers. And while many scenarios do follow a linear sequence of encounters, there are a few that provide a more organic or exploratory approach (some more successfully than others).
So, yes, I'd say go for it. You might have some scenarios at cons where you have less fun, but you'll have many more where the role-playing elements come into play and make a scenario a lot more fun.
Agreed!
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I have a nice concept for a cleric of Pharasma but I am worried that he won't be terribly useful except as a support character. Little armour, just a dagger, no Str, more of a pure spell caster with a few social skills.
How important is it in PFS to be optimised and how much is character flavour? I know in RPGA you would just about get shot for coming to a con with a non combat orientaed character.
Knowledge skills might also be useful. Being able to provide the guys in combat with information such as a creature's special attacks to avoid or weaknesses to exploit can sometimes assist tactics and turn a combat in your favour.
Though Clerics only get a 2+Int skill points, so likely you won't have a lot of points to spread around. Also, Knowlege(Arcana,Planes,Religion) apply mostly to magical beasts, outsiders, undead, which either you won't be encountering until higher levels, or their lower-level counterparts are fairly well-known. Still, with the Pathfinder Bestiary coming out (not in time for GenConOz unfortunately), some of these "known entities" may have been given a fresh coat of paint, making these Knowledge skills even more valuable.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson
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I do recommend that you have some combat capabilities beyond casting. If you encounter a situation with multiple fights back-to-back, it's good to have other ways you can help the party. A crossbow and a few consumable magics can ensure that you're always ready to do something, no matter how "hack and slash" the scenario (or party).
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I do recommend that you have some combat capabilities beyond casting. If you encounter a situation with multiple fights back-to-back, it's good to have other ways you can help the party. A crossbow and a few consumable magics can ensure that you're always ready to do something, no matter how "hack and slash" the scenario (or party).
I'm thinking if Snow Crash described his Cleric as weilding a dagger (Favoured weapon of Pharasma), then a crossbow might seem a little out-of-character? I don't know whether you want to arm yourself up with daggers like a Merisiel pin-cushion and pump up your Dex so you have a reasonable chance of hitting something?
I might also suggest, if after playing this character for a couple of sessions you feel you made the wrong choice, it wouldn't hurt to have your Gnome Paladin with you as a back-up.
You might also find, particularly if they're of different factions, that on reading the intro to each scenario that one character might appeal to you more for one scenario than another. Eg, an Andoran Gnome Paladin might launch himself into a scenario involving slaves, whereas an Osirioni Cleric of Pharasma might want to investigate desert ruins.
And there's also the option of choosing your character based on what others at the table are playing. Perhaps your Gnome Paladin could be your primary character, but you play your Cleric of Pharasma if there's no other healer at the table.
It's a pretty good idea to have a secondary character once your primary reaches about 4th level anyway, so you can join a table regardless of the tier being played. Having two characters prepared from the start, you may find that you enjoy playing one more than the other.
Just a few options.
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Good options with the having multiple characters. You even chose the same factions I have for each character. Are they really that stereotyped :-)
I have limited time before the con so I really only have the chance to increase one character by a level maybe two if I can sqeeze it in before the con. Oh well I'll decide something.
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Hi Snow Crash,
So now you've played seven Pathfinder Society scenarios, how do you feel was the balance between roleplaying vs roll playing?
Personally, I think it largely depends on the GM's personal style, whether they encourage or allow room for roleplaying from their players, how they portray NPCs, whether they allow non-combat methods of overcoming encounters etc. It also helps if you're playing among friends with similar roleplaying tendencies. I think the factions and their missions can sometimes encourage roleplaying. It can also depend how the session is running for time. Unfortunately, it's sometimes necessary to push through roleplaying in order to complete the encounters, and I did feel rushed through some sessions, but hopefully this doesn't happen too often.
I'd be interested to hear your feedback after GenConOz. Did you feel there were roleplaying opportunities for Moto Moto Gnome Paladin and others at your table? Do you think you could have comfortably played your Cleric of Pharasma concept at GenConOz?
"SSSSssssssnake."
(oh, I guess you didn't play that one)
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A simple observation:
When the PCs are expected to slog through five combats in one module... there's not much room for roleplaying.
And that's what really determines the level of roleplaying vs. rollplaying in a module-based campaign, number of combats per four-hour module.
So far, in the six PFS scenarios I've played, they've all featured four or more combats. Thus, very little roleplaying or storyline could go on.
I've played and ran a lot of four-hour Greyhawk modules, and I've found that the ones with the best chances to roleplay, and the best storylines, were the ones which included two or less combats.
As long as the typical Pathfinder Society module contains so many combats, and continues to penalize the PCs for not initiating combat, it will continue to be a hopelessly hack-n-slash campaign.
-Matt
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Hey, never played PFS before just homegames. Looking at playing a few sessions at GenConOz. I have a nice concept for a cleric of Pharasma but I am worried that he won't be terribly useful except as a support character. Little armour, just a dagger, no Str, more of a pure spell caster with a few social skills.
How important is it in PFS to be optimised and how much is character flavour? I know in RPGA you would just about get shot for coming to a con with a non combat orientaed character.
Here is my experience in way of example,
While a lot of the modules are 4-5 encounters and many of those are combat encounters there is a ton of opportunity for Role-playing & characters that would be considered non-optimized.
I think the overall tone is set by the players at the table & the GM running the Scenario. I recently attended Mini-Mega Con in Orlando, FL with 2 friends and the Three of us are all playing Halflings.
We are "Cayden's Low-Riders" composed of my Halfling Cleric, Brewer & part time Bartender "Padrin Fallowhide" of Cayden & his Riding Dog "Norm", Jurlaxle Underleaf, Paladin of Cayden, & his brave Dog steed Ambrosius, & Lelo Leafgallow, Locksmith, Scout, Finder of lost things & Storyteller astride his surly dog Tabernac! Not a single one of us is optimized/min-maxed but we succeeded in every mod & have a great time doing it.
So, have fun! They wont turn down the spells your cleric brings to the table.
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A simple observation:
When the PCs are expected to slog through five combats in one module... there's not much room for roleplaying.
And that's what really determines the level of roleplaying vs. rollplaying in a module-based campaign, number of combats per four-hour module.
So far, in the six PFS scenarios I've played, they've all featured four or more combats. Thus, very little roleplaying or storyline could go on.As long as the typical Pathfinder Society module contains so many combats, and continues to penalize the PCs for not initiating combat, it will continue to be a hopelessly hack-n-slash campaign. -Matt
First,I appreciate your point of view. Now, let me see if i can clarify some things with observations I have made. Though it is true the senarios have a lot of combat in them, not all encounters have to end with bloodshed. PFS senarios have just enough chewy morsels in each value packed session to "ensure the players have at least 4 hours of gameplay"~ quoted from Josh. Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I beleive Josh has even went so far as to have a veteran group of game testers overseas(Norway?) whose job it is to make sure each senario meets the 4 hour benchmark. Not all the senarios are meant to be combat encounters nor are all the encounters required to finish the modules.
Off the top of my head, #1 The silent tide and I think #23 Tide of Morning both have roleplaying senarios which "can" but do not have to end up into combat encounters(they are both well written and interesting to play if you want to try them). I do not think you are going to find a module that is 100% role-play to win though, most people I know like to roll dice at least once a session.
Roleplaying to me is more initiated by the players than the GM. I have not had any problems roleplaying my character with any of the other PFS members. I have had GMs in a bit of a hurry to keep the adventure rolling so we can finish and sometimes that may put a damper on your expierience at the table. Please be patient with them, they just want to make sure you get the full reward.
To sum up my point, no, there are roleplaying encounters. You need to look for opportunities in places where others might miss. Roleplay even during the combat. Dont just say "I swing my rapier." and roll the dice, say "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
Venture-captains are good targets for roleplaying opportunities. Hope this helps.
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First,I appreciate your point of view. Now, let me see if i can clarify some things with observations I have made. Though it is true the senarios have a lot of combat in them, not all encounters have to end with bloodshed. PFS senarios have just enough chewy morsels in each value packed session to "ensure the players have at least 4 hours of gameplay"~ quoted from Josh. Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I beleive Josh has even went so far as to have a veteran group of game testers overseas(Norway?) whose job it is to make sure each senario meets the 4 hour benchmark. Not all the senarios are meant to be combat encounters nor are all the encounters required to finish the modules.
Off the top of my head, #1 The silent tide and I think #23 Tide of Morning both have roleplaying senarios which "can" but do not have to end up into combat encounters(they are both well written and interesting to play if you want to try them). I do not think you are going to find a module that is 100% role-play to win though, most people I know like to roll dice at least once a session.
Roleplaying to me is more initiated by the players than the GM. I have not had any problems roleplaying my character with any of the other PFS members. I have had GMs in a bit of a hurry to keep the adventure rolling so we can finish and sometimes that may put a damper on your...
Roleplaying may be initiated by the players or the GM, but will most likely not happen unless both sides make an effort. It doesn't help when the scenario calls for humanoid adversaries to attack at the first sight of the party. #14 The Many Fortunes is a great example of a scenario where the entire mission could be accomplished diplomatically, but the boxed text, the faction missions, and the NPC tactics make it nearly impossible to avoid a string of fights. What's more, if the GM allows the party to talk their way through several of the scenarios, they lose out on the rewards.
On the other hand, my players had a great time roleplaying in in #29 Shipyard Rats. There were skills rolls for every social skill including Disguise (Diplomacy and Intimidate at least a dozen times each) and half the knowledge skills, each of them because the players and I both chose to roleplay.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I beleive Josh has even went so far as to have a veteran group of game testers overseas(Norway?) whose job it is to make sure each senario meets the 4 hour benchmark.
I think it is Finland? I don't think we have many PFS members here in Norway.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I beleive Josh has even went so far as to have a veteran group of game testers overseas(Norway?) whose job it is to make sure each senario meets the 4 hour benchmark.
My how that story has grown.
There is a group of players in Finland (of which Deussu and many other messageboard regulars are apart) that devour the scenarios so I keep an eye on how long scenarios take them to get a gauge of how fast our hardcore players clear each type of scenario.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I beleive Josh has even went so far as to have a veteran group of game testers overseas(Norway?) whose job it is to make sure each senario meets the 4 hour benchmark.My how that story has grown.
There is a group of players in Finland (of which Deussu and many other messageboard regulars are apart) that devour the scenarios so I keep an eye on how long scenarios take them to get a gauge of how fast our hardcore players clear each type of scenario.
I hear they have dice carved from the bones of their enemies, and meet in a secret gaming lair stocked with chips, soda, and a 40x40 block of custom built terrain for each scenario. They have a red phone which is a direct line to Josh - which they use to call and report all 20's they roll and any flaws in the module.
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Just got back from GenConOz and I must say the GMs were great.We were able to roleplay our way through several encounters and even the fight scenes were livened up by the GM and players letting me quote quotes of holy smiting goodness from my paladin. Fun time to be had by all and many laughs at my numerous attempts to get my warpony places it probably shouldn't have gone. The things I put poor Laraby through. He has been my faithful companion in the fight against wrong-doers since day 1.
Thank-you to all the GMs and players involved for putting up with my silliness and adding much silliness of their own.
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My how that story has grown.
There is a group of players in Finland (of which Deussu and many other messageboard regulars are apart) that devour the scenarios so I keep an eye on how long scenarios take them to get a gauge of how fast our hardcore players clear each type of scenario.
Actually playing #30 The Devil We Know Part 2 - Cassomir's Locker took us 5 hours to complete. That was, however, because we took very odd tactics in the first encounter (also ran back to the store to buy ladders...)
By the way what is a hardcore player?
I hear they have dice carved from the bones of their enemies, and meet in a secret gaming lair stocked with chips, soda, and a 40x40 block of custom built terrain for each scenario. They have a red phone which is a direct line to Josh - which they use to call and report all 20's they roll and any flaws in the module.
You forgot about our GM's altar. When a character dies, its player must bring an offering (normally a raw steak) to the GM for him to devour it barehanded. The connectin to Cheliax must be clear now.
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Actually playing #30 The Devil We Know Part 2 - Cassomir's Locker took us 5 hours to complete. That was, however, because we took very odd tactics in the first encounter (also ran back to the store to buy ladders...)
Yeah. Don't forget about the other part of that encounter involving playing with matches. ;)
The other reason why this scenario ran long was because I pretty much added role-playing opportunities to every scene involving NPC-characters able to talk. This included the cultists, the fey and the prisoners.
You forgot about our GM's altar. When a character dies, its player must bring an offering (normally a raw steak) to the GM for him to devour it barehanded. The connectin to Cheliax must be clear now.
Mm... steak... Another customary offering is spirits and beer. These are sometimes even offered beforehand as to avoid the wrath of the GM's character killing d20's.
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Hey all, I played Saturday and Sunday with SnowCrash (MotoMoto). The first two scenarios we had were the two parter "Devil you know series". This one was fairly combat intensive so the opportunities for roleplay were a little limited, but mostly becasue we had time limits restricting us for that one. At least one of our players felt a little disapointed in this aspect becasue he had a concept for his charcter that didn't really get a chance to be aired. However, there was lots of roleplay interaction amongst the players as a concsequence so I at least was happy.
Sunday saw us play two non linked adventures. The morning one in particular had two encounters where we literally had to roleplay through them. The faction missions for this one made it far more necessary to roleplay than the previous two. This one was great, and had a good balance of the game styles in there. It even included a problem of sorts that needed to be solved with a strict time limit and a combat running. Great job there.
The last game was a mystery haunting. The pace was much slower intially due to the cautious nature (and low level ) or our group. I felt it built up nice tension and when we started picking up clues as to what was going on it really felt like a mystery adventure in the true sense. Kept us guessing right up until the first major encounter (about 2 hours into the session).
From the 4 games I've had achance to play, I'd say the opportunites are there for roleplay. It helps if your GM is willing to go out of the box to do so (as happened on Sunday morning for us).
I also think if we didn't have the time constraints of a con to stick to for the first mission, much more roleplay would have occured.
Cheers
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These two were among my favourite scenarios (titles spoilered below):
and
Unfortunately, as much as I would have liked, I wasn't able to GM these scenarios personally at GenConOz, as there were too many other scenarios on the schedule - I couldn't run them all (much as the players couldn't play them all) - but from the sound of it, the GMs that ran these for you did a stellar job, and I'm glad you enjoyed them!
I have only played 2 mods but both mods there was virtually no role playing it was all roll playing and in one mod I got penalized for role playing and completing a mission instead of roll playing it.
Can you be more specific? Which scenarios are we talking about?
I just played my first 2 pathfinder games. #29 and #30 I was pretty excited about factions and secret missions. After the day was over I came to the realization that faction play is a very small and sad part of pathfinder.
One module #29 I solved my faction quest but did not get get credit because I figured it out in a round about way and not EXACTLY how the mod said. So no role playing allowed there. I should have just rolled a d20
As I watched players try and complete most of their factions secret missions I realized it all came down to dice rolls. If you didn't have the skill chances were you failed your mission.
I did enjoy the modules and I like pretty much everything about pathfinder but the Factions and secret quests are pretty much pointless except to have a chance to get more loot if you roll good on a d20.
One module #29 I solved my faction quest but did not get get credit because I figured it out in a round about way and not EXACTLY how the mod said. So no role playing allowed there. I should have just rolled a d20
>facepalm<
You should've been rewarded for finding another solution to your mission, something I'll encourage in a future update of the guide book.
I did enjoy the modules and I like pretty much everything about pathfinder but the Factions and secret quests are pretty much pointless except to have a chance to get more loot if you roll good on a d20.
I'm glad you enjoyed them. Most GMs will mix RP in with skill rolls. If you need a good diplomacy roll in my game, for example, I make you roleplay out the conversation and then call for the roll. That way it's not all dice. Not all GMs are the same, however, and I think the roleplaying opportunities in a scenario are directly linked to your GMs style.