I don't understand why you would need to be a roguish class to have perception as a class skill. Couldn't a trained fighter type have exclusive use of his god given senses? Perhaps this is how it's been all along, but I just can't justify any cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer or wizard not being able to utilize their senses without the justification of devoting outrageous amounts of skill points dumped into this. A high level fighter or paladin should be able to notice a low level thief sneaking about without having to spend their menial amounts of skill points all in this one. Perhaps I will house rule it though. Sorry for the rant.
I don't understand why you would need to be a roguish class to have perception as a class skill. Couldn't a trained fighter type have exclusive use of his god given senses? Perhaps this is how it's been all along, but I just can't justify any cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer or wizard not being able to utilize their senses without the justification of devoting outrageous amounts of skill points dumped into this. A high level fighter or paladin should be able to notice a low level thief sneaking about without having to spend their menial amounts of skill points all in this one. Perhaps I will house rule it though. Sorry for the rant.
I had the same issue in 3.5. Even commoners had spot, but the fighter didn't.
I just checked. The commoner gets perception in pathfinder also.
I haven't played since 2E. I played extensively from the inception of the game through 2E. Everyone could search as an action back then, I believe. And this is certainly not a rant against Paizo, rather an observation after reviewing the rules.
If a fighter did not take the special skill feat, he would have to be at least 4th level to have a chance at noticing a 1st level rogue sneaking (1 skill rank + 3 class skill bonus.) Am I correct here? So a standard guard (level 1 - 4)doing his guarding type duties would be completely incapable of noticing a rogue sneaking by him. Spotting, listening, and smelling are senses everyone is born with. I just really don't understand why this would be the case.
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If a fighter did not take the special skill feat, he would have to be at least 4th level to have a chance at noticing a 1st level rogue sneaking (1 skill rank + 3 class skill bonus.) Am I correct here? So a standard guard (level 1 - 4)doing his guarding type duties would be completely incapable of noticing a rogue sneaking by him. Spotting, listening, and smelling are senses everyone is born with. I just really don't understand why this would be the case.
Anyone can roll a Perception check since it is not 'trained only'. If you don't have ranks in the skill it is a straight d20 + Wisdom modifier.
If a fighter did not take the special skill feat, he would have to be at least 4th level to have a chance at noticing a 1st level rogue sneaking (1 skill rank + 3 class skill bonus.) Am I correct here? So a standard guard (level 1 - 4)doing his guarding type duties would be completely incapable of noticing a rogue sneaking by him. Spotting, listening, and smelling are senses everyone is born with. I just really don't understand why this would be the case.
No your not correct, the fighter would have a less than even chance (probably) but still a chance. And guards tend to take 10, giving the Rogue a 10+ 1 (perception) + ? (say 1, Wisdom) score to beat: 12 or higher with a roll 1d20 + 4 (class skill stealth) + 3 or 4? DEX. A good chance but not 100%. And as pointed out before as there are no cc skills, the chance is not that far behind 50% (ability scores, not withstanding); the 'percerptioner' [;-)] can add Skill Focus or one of the traits which give perception as a class skill :-)
I feel the lack of cc skills now means only those classes that spend their time scouting (Rogue, ranger and...maybe..monk) should get Perception; not people who spend their time practicing toe-to-toe fighting while enclosed is sheet metal!
If a fighter did not take the special skill feat, he would have to be at least 4th level to have a chance at noticing a 1st level rogue sneaking (1 skill rank + 3 class skill bonus.) Am I correct here? So a standard guard (level 1 - 4)doing his guarding type duties would be completely incapable of noticing a rogue sneaking by him. Spotting, listening, and smelling are senses everyone is born with. I just really don't understand why this would be the case.No your not correct, the fighter would have a less than even chance (probably) but still a chance. And guards tend to take 10, giving the Rogue a 10+ 1 (perception) + ? (say 1, Wisdom) score to beat: 12 or higher with a roll 1d20 + 4 (class skill stealth) + 3 or 4? DEX. A good chance but not 100%. And as pointed out before as there are no cc skills, the chance is not that far behind 50% (ability scores, not withstanding); the 'percerptioner' [;-)] can add Skill Focus or one of the traits which give perception as a class skill :-)
I feel the lack of cc skills now means only those classes that spend their time scouting (Rogue, ranger and...maybe..monk) should get Perception; not people who spend their time practicing toe-to-toe fighting while enclosed is sheet metal!
That was very inciteful mach1.9 pants. Thanks so much.Guess it will be houseruled then. Just as an aside, the fighter depicted in the core rulebook appears quite scout like and doesn't appear to be encased in sheet metal at all.
Just as an aside, the fighter depicted in the core rulebook appears quite scout like and doesn't appear to be encased in sheet metal at all.
Valeros, the iconic fighter, in the picture is wearing half-plate (breastplate covering chainmail) and in his stats he wears chainmail. How is this a scout?
Skills are easier to get than before in PRPG, the only advantage of having a class skill is the +3 bonus. If you really want rogues to be detected more often, just reduce their Stealth DC due to many many environmental factors you can use.
Different classes are good (and spend time training) at different things. Not all classes are specialized looking for things such as secret doors and traps, and noticing (and remembering!) small details on people, places and thing. Rogues spend time watching, looking and detecting things other people wouldn't notice, I think they deserve the meager +3 bonus as a class skill.
Just as an aside, the fighter depicted in the core rulebook appears quite scout like and doesn't appear to be encased in sheet metal at all.Valeros, the iconic fighter, in the picture is wearing half-plate (breastplate covering chainmail) and in his stats he wears chainmail. How is this a scout?
Skills are easier to get than before in PRPG, the only advantage of having a class skill is the +3 bonus. If you really want rogues to be detected more often, just reduce their Stealth DC due to many many environmental factors you can use.
Different classes are good (and spend time training) at different things. Not all classes are specialized looking for things such as secret doors and traps, and noticing (and remembering!) small details on people, places and thing. Rogues spend time watching, looking and detecting things other people wouldn't notice, I think they deserve the meager +3 bonus as a class skill.
If I were a scout I would probably go with a breastplate. It would be quiet, protective, and not too heavy. I believe many rogues wear mithril plates. This doesn't necessarily make them less perceptive. Although I can see applying a penalty for using large helmets. As was pointed out earlier, even commoners have the perception class skill.
I'm not trying to make rogues easier to detect, I'm just asking for an unbiased opinion on why this is not an across the board class skill. Spotting and listening are traits of this skill. Perception covers the 5 senses that we all have. Just because someone trains more at fighting than picking a lock doesn't seem a good reason to have or not have this as a class skill. Soldiers are taught to be perceptive. As that is one of their main jobs. Apparently you have never been one, or you would be aware of that.
So the main reasoning is, because classes have to be different. If that works for you then fantastic. Don't get all righteous and juvenile at me. Thanks for stating the same answers already provided by others and striving to be more self righteous than they. I believe differently than you and well, that's reality.
There are valid reasons that certain classes gain Peception as a class (with a bonus) and these reasons are well balanced.
Definition:
Perception is a Wisdom based skill, and Wisdom affects common sense, awareness, and intuition. It "allows you to notice fine details and alert you to danger."
Being a Roque/Thief is about mastering your surroundings, and often about taking advantage of those surrounding where the surroudings are 'society'. (Even an adventuring rogue has all the skills for dealing with society.)
Being a fighter is not about mastering your surroundings, it is about mastering oneself and the physical environment of ones immediate encounter - (i.e. winning the battle and overcoming an opponent through direct confrontation using skill/strength, or overcoming the obstacle (swim/climb/ride).
[Note: While being on guard duty or being a Scout may still require the senses, they are not applied the same way by different classes. A soldier warrior scout is looking at the big picture, the battle, the opponent, the opportunity for confrontation and master over the opponent. In contrast, the best guard would be a roque, who would have a better understanding of what it takes to get past himself (Hide/Move Silently] and therefore since he has those two skills, his ability to percieve/detect those two skill would be better as he has a more innate understanding of them.[/b] Fighter, with their 'inward' focus on mastering themsevles and applying themselves does not lend itself to having a better Perception than Rogues, who themselves are about mastering their environment and people in their surroudings (a very extroverted application of their skill set).
Being a Magic User (Wizard/Sorcerer) is about unlocking the secrets of magic or of ones innate talents. In either case, perception of the outside world and unlocking it is not as important as overcoming the intellectual puzzles.
A fighter is free to put his skill points into Perception without penalty. The only difference is that he doesn't get the +3 class skill bonus. If you want an especially perceptive fighter (e.g., a guard specialist), take Skill Focus (Perception), and you've got it right back.
There are valid reasons that certain classes gain Peception as a class (with a bonus) and these reasons are well balanced.
Definition:
Perception is a Wisdom based skill, and Wisdom affects common sense, awareness, and intuition. It "allows you to notice fine details and alert you to danger."Being a Roque/Thief is about mastering your surroundings, and often about taking advantage of those surrounding where the surroudings are 'society'. (Even an adventuring rogue has all the skills for dealing with society.)
Being a fighter is not about mastering your surroundings, it is about mastering oneself and the physical environment of ones immediate encounter - (i.e. winning the battle and overcoming an opponent through direct confrontation using skill/strength, or overcoming the obstacle (swim/climb/ride).
[Note: While being on guard duty or being a Scout may still require the senses, they are not applied the same way by different classes. A soldier warrior scout is looking at the big picture, the battle, the opponent, the opportunity for confrontation and master over the opponent. In contrast, the best guard would be a roque, who would have a better understanding of what it takes to get past himself (Hide/Move Silently] and therefore since he has those two skills, his ability to percieve/detect those two skill would be better as he has a more innate understanding of them.[/b] Fighter, with their 'inward' focus on mastering themsevles and applying themselves does not lend itself to having a better Perception than Rogues, who themselves are about mastering their environment and people in their surroudings (a very extroverted application of their skill set).Being a Magic User (Wizard/Sorcerer) is about unlocking the secrets of magic or of ones innate talents. In either case, perception of the outside world and unlocking it is not as important as overcoming the intellectual puzzles.
Thank you Chovesh, that is the kind of answer I was looking for. I think the fighters in my campaign are probably all multiclassing with rogue anyway. We're doing a militant campaign as spec-op type characters. I agree that a roguish mindset is ideal for counteracting it (it takes a thief...). I guess I kind of wish that the spot/ listen checks weren't lumped into this skill.
I prefer that all enemies and players in my campaign have a decent chance at detecting stealth (not secret doors and traps). It makes a high level rogue more fearsome with his/ her stealth capacities and a low level rogue more apt to fail at it. This seems appropriate to me, and makes succeeding on the skill checks on either side a bit more rewarding.
But I appreciate you explaining in a rational fashion the devil's advocate side of the skill. Thanks!!
Thank you Chovesh, that is the kind of answer I was...There are valid reasons that certain classes gain Peception as a class (with a bonus) and these reasons are well balanced.
Definition:
Perception is a Wisdom based skill, and Wisdom affects common sense, awareness, and intuition. It "allows you to notice fine details and alert you to danger."Being a Roque/Thief is about mastering your surroundings, and often about taking advantage of those surrounding where the surroudings are 'society'. (Even an adventuring rogue has all the skills for dealing with society.)
Being a fighter is not about mastering your surroundings, it is about mastering oneself and the physical environment of ones immediate encounter - (i.e. winning the battle and overcoming an opponent through direct confrontation using skill/strength, or overcoming the obstacle (swim/climb/ride).
[Note: While being on guard duty or being a Scout may still require the senses, they are not applied the same way by different classes. A soldier warrior scout is looking at the big picture, the battle, the opponent, the opportunity for confrontation and master over the opponent. In contrast, the best guard would be a roque, who would have a better understanding of what it takes to get past himself (Hide/Move Silently] and therefore since he has those two skills, his ability to percieve/detect those two skill would be better as he has a more innate understanding of them.[/b] Fighter, with their 'inward' focus on mastering themsevles and applying themselves does not lend itself to having a better Perception than Rogues, who themselves are about mastering their environment and people in their surroudings (a very extroverted application of their skill set).Being a Magic User (Wizard/Sorcerer) is about unlocking the secrets of magic or of ones innate talents. In either case, perception of the outside world and unlocking it is not as important as overcoming the intellectual puzzles.
One thing to add to what Chovesh said...anyone benefits from having Perception as a skill. However, most of the classes, like Fighter, can do their job without it (a fighter might not like rounding the corner and finding himself face to face with an orc/ogre/whatever, but he is more than capable, indeed, in his element, in what will follow) whereas a rogue who doesn't notice the guards, the tripwires, maybe even the slight musky odor of the guard wyvern, can and usually is well and truely screwed in said situation. So while anyone can train their sense (take ranks in Perception) only a few classes lives may be in the balance if they aren't good at it (have it as a class skill). While I admit it is somewhat jarring to see it listed as a class skill for commoners, the way its done in the PC classes makes sense.
Thanks Krigare, again useful input. I will probably keep it as written. Although one thing I still find a little odd is that perception is a wisdom based skill and clerics also don't get it as a class skill. They are generally the epitome of intuition and wisdom. I guess it won't unbalance gameplay much and my players are playing 3 fighter/ rogues (with 1 or 2 designated snipers) and a fighter/ cleric. So even with the cleric type at a disadvantage here, as a whole they won't be. Again thanks for the advice. I kind of felt like I had unknowingly slapped somebody's Momma from a few of the replies to my original query.
I don't understand why you would need to be a roguish class to have perception as a class skill. Couldn't a trained fighter type have exclusive use of his god given senses? Perhaps this is how it's been all along, but I just can't justify any cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer or wizard not being able to utilize their senses without the justification of devoting outrageous amounts of skill points dumped into this. A high level fighter or paladin should be able to notice a low level thief sneaking about without having to spend their menial amounts of skill points all in this one. Perhaps I will house rule it though. Sorry for the rant.I had the same issue in 3.5. Even commoners had spot, but the fighter didn't.
I just checked. The commoner gets perception in pathfinder also.
Commoners are like dear, eyes on the side of the head because they are prey. If they don't see if coming they are dead. Fighters are hunters, eyes forward, and they have survival to track those pesky commoners down.
It's better then in 3.5, at least you can take the skill now without paying double. All an inclass skill gives you is a +3 to use it. Better, not perfect. I really think fighters, clerics, wizards all should get 4 skill points/level base always have thought they needed that.
I don't understand why you would need to be a roguish class to have perception as a class skill. Couldn't a trained fighter type have exclusive use of his god given senses? Perhaps this is how it's been all along, but I just can't justify any cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer or wizard not being able to utilize their senses without the justification of devoting outrageous amounts of skill points dumped into this. A high level fighter or paladin should be able to notice a low level thief sneaking about without having to spend their menial amounts of skill points all in this one. Perhaps I will house rule it though. Sorry for the rant.I had the same issue in 3.5. Even commoners had spot, but the fighter didn't.
I just checked. The commoner gets perception in pathfinder also.
Commoners are like dear, eyes on the side of the head because they are prey. If they don't see if coming they are dead. Fighters are hunters, eyes forward, and they have survival to track those pesky commoners down.
It's better then in 3.5, at least you can take the skill now without paying double. All an inclass skill gives you is a +3 to use it. Better, not perfect. I really think fighters, clerics, wizards all should get 4 skill points/level base always have thought they needed that.
+1 to the 4 skill points/ level. That would definitely help out a bit.
Don't sorcerers and wizards have the same skill ranks/ level? Sorry, not following yet. (We don't use either much).
About clerics 'needing' perception as a class skill. Clerics focus on wisdom, ergo if a cleric maxed perception ranks in all likelihood he would have a higher total perception bonus than a character with it as a class skill (The sole exception being monks)
As for the 4 skill points per level bit, I agree for everything EXCEPT wizards. That skill point thing has been bad since 3.5, Sorcerers get WAYYYY outstripped by them in the skills department (and now that really matters because of how crossclass skills work. A wizard player could have very high stealth and perception and a half dozen other things while the sorc is lucky to be able to afford spellcraft and use magic device)
Rangers would in all likihood also have a decent wisdom score. Just saying.
But I don't care if they have perception in class or not, for clerics are least, 4 skill points per level would be more then enough to make me happy with most classes as far as skills go. You could give it to wizards even just require they spend half their skill points on knowledge, craft, or profession skills. Then if they choose they can still get high perception and stealth and so be it, they are a bit different but still nothing bad about that.
Don't sorcerers and wizards have the same skill ranks/ level? Sorry, not following yet. (We don't use either much).
Prime stats make the difference here. Wizards is int, Sorc is cha.
Don't sorcerers and wizards have the same skill ranks/ level? Sorry, not following yet. (We don't use either much).Prime stats make the difference here. Wizards is int, Sorc is cha.
Gotcha on the sorc/ wizard thing. (Low magic campaign). I agree on the 4 point/ level thing. Need to think about it before houseruling it, though. Am keeping the perception as is for now.
A common house rule is to allow the exchange of class granted armor profiency for extra skill points.
Our version goes as follow:
- Drop down from Medium and/or Heavy Armor Prof. to Light Armor Prof. to gain +2 skill points per level.
- Give up 2 skill points per level to move up one step in Armor Prof.
This seems to work pretty well although now that Rangers have Medium Armor Prof., it kind of messes up the formula a little. Letting them trade down would be unbalancing IMO.