My Ranger just hit level 4, gained a Hawk companion, and I'm super confused about its stats. I was all ready with the 3.5 stats but the PFRPG core book came out just in time (and I love it!), so now we're going by official non-beta rules.
So... I'm looking at pg. 53 and I feel a little dumb. Some of these numbers seem to coincide with old rules and others leave me in the dark. I understand the simple stuff (Ability Scores changed, that's easy), but some entries have me scratching my head (the new Skill rules). Here's the three main issues:
It says AC: +1 natural armor. But without the Bestiary, how do I know what his base AC is?
My hawk used to have +5 Talons as a single attack. Now he gets Bite/Talon/Talon, all at BAB + Ability bonuses, is that correct?
Now, on to skills. This confuses me to no end- do animals still have 'base' skills from their template, or do Companions start without that? Hawks used to have crazy Perception bonuses (well, Spot, but you get it). Does my hawk now only get a single rank for Perception? Or do Animal Companion skill points stack with their natural abilities?
I realize that some of these questions will get answered when the Bestiary arrives, but in the meantime I've got a band of Lizardfolk to defeat, and they're not waiting 'til September!
Look on page 52. Use that table for the companion's base stats. After that, apply the individual creature modifiers from pages 53 and 54.
My Ranger just hit level 4, gained a Hawk companion, and I'm super confused about its stats. I was all ready with the 3.5 stats but the PFRPG core book came out just in time (and I love it!), so now we're going by official non-beta rules.
So... I'm looking at pg. 53 and I feel a little dumb. Some of these numbers seem to coincide with old rules and others leave me in the dark. I understand the simple stuff (Ability Scores changed, that's easy), but some entries have me scratching my head (the new Skill rules). Here's the three main issues:
The new rules really let you custom build a animal companion which is both good and bad. The bad as you see is that its a little harder to do. The good is you get exactly what you want.
It says AC: +1 natural armor. But without the Bestiary, how do I know what his base AC is?
You have to calculate it out. 10(Base)+1 Bird Natural +0 Level Natural +2 Dex +1 Small Size = 14AC
My hawk used to have +5 Talons as a single attack. Now he gets Bite/Talon/Talon, all at BAB + Ability bonuses, is that correct?
Calculate again. +1BAB +1 Small Size +0 Str = +2
As it looks like Claws and Talons are not secondary attacks the Bit/Talon/Talon attacks would be +2/+2/+2.Now you can pick feats also. Hmm the PRD does not list Weapon Finesse, but the book does on page53. Most small animals are going to take Weapon Finesse. So then you would get +4/+4/+4.
Now, on to skills. This confuses me to no end- do animals still have 'base' skills from their template, or do Companions start without that? Hawks used to have crazy Perception bonuses (well, Spot, but you get it). Does my hawk now only get a single rank for Perception? Or do Animal Companion skill points stack with their natural abilities?
Again you get to craft your animal as you wish and the "class skills" are listed on page 53 under "Animal Skills". You get 2 points and as the animal has 2 hit die they both can go in the same skill. In this case sounds like you want them both in Perception so it has +2 Ranks +3 Class Skill +2 Wis for a total of +7 Perception.
Personally I think I would put one of those points into fly maybe, but its your bird. =)
I realize that some of these questions will get answered when the Bestiary arrives, but in the meantime I've got a band of Lizardfolk to defeat, and they're not waiting 'til September!
Hope the above helps.
There are a few things being forgotten here.
Eagles are small, and thus gain a +2 bonus on fly checks. Average maneuverability = +0 to fly checks.
Your animal companion eagle still gets it's racial modifiers to it's skill checks (it still is an eagle after all), so the math would actually look like this:
Fly: 1 rank + 2 size + 2 dex + 3 class = +8
Perception: 1 rank + 2 wis + 3 class + 8 race = +14
So with one rank in each, your AC eagle will have the same fly skill and a better perception than a regular eagle.
where does it say animal companions get the same racial bonuses as the generic animal?
No where does it say "they keep all modifiers based on their race"... and no where does it say that "they lose all modifiers based on their race".
Any info on racial mods to skills in either direction has been left out. However, a few sentences (plus my own common sense, they still are said animal and were said animal before becoming AC's after all, IMO) lead me to believe that they still apply. They are as follows:
~~Page 51: "table 3:8 determines many of the base statistics of the animal companion"
many, not all.
~~Page 53: "...found in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary. Some of the special attacks and qualities possessed by animals are covered in more detail there as well."
So there it's leading me to check the bestiary for other abilities of the animal companion not listed in the Core book, such as racial modifiers to skills.
~~Page 86: "Skills can be further modified by a wide variety of sources - by your race, ..."
~~Page 87, table 4:2 includes "racial modifier" in every instance.
So, does an AC eagle stop being an eagle? I don't think so. However, there is nothing written that specifically says one way or the other. For a definitive answer, we'd need a designer to tell us. Until then, I'm sticking to my guns.
Creative Director
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As written, an animal companion gains ONLY the abilities that are listed in its animal companion stat block and the basic rules for animal companions. This does mean that an animal companion doesn't gain the various racial skill modifiers a normal animal of its kind gets; if the normal animal has bonus feats, the animal companion doesn't get them either. Animal companions are different than normal animals, after all, and are built using different rules.
*points to self*
Proven wrong.
Huh. So Wolves and about half of the other animal companions genuinely don't have low-light vision?
Weird.
Ah. I'm a bit confused why it's listed for some animals and not for others? Just a typo?
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Creative Director
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Ah. I'm a bit confused why it's listed for some animals and not for others? Just a typo?
Probably. Might have something to do with fitting all of the stat blocks on the page the way they did too. Might just be a disconnect between design philosophies between monster stat blocks and animal companion stat blocks.
In the end, of course, giving an animal companion its skill bonuses and senses and all that where they differ isn't that game breaking, and if you want to houserule in an eagle's bonus on Perception checks, that's cool too.
Ah. I'm a bit confused why it's listed for some animals and not for others? Just a typo?
Probably. Might have something to do with fitting all of the stat blocks on the page the way they did too. Might just be a disconnect between design philosophies between monster stat blocks and animal companion stat blocks.
In the end, of course, giving an animal companion its skill bonuses and senses and all that where they differ isn't that game breaking, and if you want to houserule in an eagle's bonus on Perception checks, that's cool too.
Hello James. The book says "An animal companion's abilities are determined by the druid's level and its animal racial traits."
I am just pointing this out so it can be corrected before the next printing of the book if the intent was to only give what is explicitly listed.
Ah. I'm a bit confused why it's listed for some animals and not for others? Just a typo?
Probably. Might have something to do with fitting all of the stat blocks on the page the way they did too. Might just be a disconnect between design philosophies between monster stat blocks and animal companion stat blocks.
In the end, of course, giving an animal companion its skill bonuses and senses and all that where they differ isn't that game breaking, and if you want to houserule in an eagle's bonus on Perception checks, that's cool too.
Hello James. The book says "An animal companion's abilities are determined by the druid's level and its animal racial traits."
I am just pointing this out so it can be corrected before the next printing of the book if the intent was to only give what is explicitly listed.
That might refer to the traits they automatically gain as creatures of the "animal" type, such as low light vision.
Just another interpretation.
Ah. I'm a bit confused why it's listed for some animals and not for others? Just a typo?
Probably. Might have something to do with fitting all of the stat blocks on the page the way they did too. Might just be a disconnect between design philosophies between monster stat blocks and animal companion stat blocks.
In the end, of course, giving an animal companion its skill bonuses and senses and all that where they differ isn't that game breaking, and if you want to houserule in an eagle's bonus on Perception checks, that's cool too.
Hello James. The book says "An animal companion's abilities are determined by the druid's level and its animal racial traits."
I am just pointing this out so it can be corrected before the next printing of the book if the intent was to only give what is explicitly listed.
That might refer to the traits they automatically gain as creatures of the "animal" type, such as low light vision.
Just another interpretation.
Even in another post he bonus traits were said to include bonus feats and what not.
I also understand what the limitation is now, but as written its not clear that certain traits should be ignored. I know the next errata might not for another 3-6 months, but I can wait.
As written, an animal companion gains ONLY the abilities that are listed in its animal companion stat block and the basic rules for animal companions. This does mean that an animal companion doesn't gain the various racial skill modifiers a normal animal of its kind gets; if the normal animal has bonus feats, the animal companion doesn't get them either. Animal companions are different than normal animals, after all, and are built using different rules.But this doesn't make sense. The druid or ranger doesn't go out and grab a wolf pup 5 minutes after it's born or steal an eagle egg and hatch it. They go out and befriend an existing animal. So there is an animal out in the wild with all theses skill bonuses and feats, then a druid comes along and befriends it, and all of a sudden the eagle's eyesight got poor and it forgot how to fly and (I didn't even consider looking at the feats) forgot how to use it's claws to attack as effectively. But it gets a hit die. But in all other ways it has become weaker then it had been 10 minutes ago.
Does this also mean the Grab ability is not gained?
While it does not make real world sense that a animal in the wild gets "weaker" once they become a friend of the new Druid or Ranger... It also does not make real world sense that at level 20 a hawk could easily kill a bear.
Animal companions are s class based pet and not a normal wild animal. Some of the things you gain right away may be hit points... but you also get the loyalty and ability to Handle Animal easier.
You sometimes have to take a bigger look at game balance when you think about this. As said, if you want your pets to be more powerful let them keep the stuff they had before... but make the ranger pay extra feats for the loyalty, handle animal, share spells and all the other good stuff they do would have gotten for free.
Finally, the Boon Companion is a very good thing for a ranger to take as well to help their pet be better early on.
While it does not make real world sense that a animal in the wild gets "weaker" once they become a friend of the new Druid or Ranger... It also does not make real world sense that at level 20 a hawk could easily kill a bear.
Animal companions are s class based pet and not a normal wild animal. Some of the things you gain right away may be hit points... but you also get the loyalty and ability to Handle Animal easier.
You sometimes have to take a bigger look at game balance when you think about this. As said, if you want your pets to be more powerful let them keep the stuff they had before... but make the ranger pay extra feats for the loyalty, handle animal, share spells and all the other good stuff they do would have gotten for free.
Finally, the Boon Companion is a very good thing for a ranger to take as well to help their pet be better early on.
What is boon companion?
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Creative Director
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Does this also mean the Grab ability is not gained?As written, an animal companion gains ONLY the abilities that are listed in its animal companion stat block and the basic rules for animal companions. This does mean that an animal companion doesn't gain the various racial skill modifiers a normal animal of its kind gets; if the normal animal has bonus feats, the animal companion doesn't get them either. Animal companions are different than normal animals, after all, and are built using different rules.But this doesn't make sense. The druid or ranger doesn't go out and grab a wolf pup 5 minutes after it's born or steal an eagle egg and hatch it. They go out and befriend an existing animal. So there is an animal out in the wild with all theses skill bonuses and feats, then a druid comes along and befriends it, and all of a sudden the eagle's eyesight got poor and it forgot how to fly and (I didn't even consider looking at the feats) forgot how to use it's claws to attack as effectively. But it gets a hit die. But in all other ways it has become weaker then it had been 10 minutes ago.
An animal companion only gains the grab ability if its animal companion stat block says so.
THIS And it is Pathfinder Society legal to use.
Basically this lets you play a multi-class character and still have a companion that is tougher. When a Ranger gets a pet, they treat it like a druid pet at your level - 3. With this feat and a single class ranger the pet uses the this formula (Ranger Level - 3) + 3* letting you have a pet that is equal to your actual level just like a druid would.
[*4 but caps at HD so you only get three with pure ranger.]
EDITED to clarify the feat a bit as others felt the wording a bit odd.
THIS And it is Pathfinder Society legal to use.
Thanks. I will look the list over later on.
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So animal companions only get the abilities listed in the animal companion entry for the animal of that type. Gotcha.
Does that mean that the hawks/eagles are normal Small creatures, or are they Small creatures with the space/reach of a Tiny creature (like the Bestiary eagle is)?
Thus far (for PFS) I've gone with Tiny creature space/reach, but man is that annoying - I'd sure like it if it weren't true!
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Does that mean that the hawks/eagles are normal Small creatures, or are they Small creatures with the space/reach of a Tiny creature (like the Bestiary eagle is)?
Thus far (for PFS) I've gone with Tiny creature space/reach, but man is that annoying - I'd sure like it if it weren't true!
Bumpeth. Anyone have any insights?
Bumpeth. Anyone have any insights?Does that mean that the hawks/eagles are normal Small creatures, or are they Small creatures with the space/reach of a Tiny creature (like the Bestiary eagle is)?
Thus far (for PFS) I've gone with Tiny creature space/reach, but man is that annoying - I'd sure like it if it weren't true!
Animal companions are whatever the animal companion section says they are. If the Animal Companion eagle is a Small creature, it's a Small creature, with all the benefits and penalties thereof.
As written, an animal companion gains ONLY the abilities that are listed in its animal companion stat block and the basic rules for animal companions. This does mean that an animal companion doesn't gain the various racial skill modifiers a normal animal of its kind gets; if the normal animal has bonus feats, the animal companion doesn't get them either. Animal companions are different than normal animals, after all, and are built using different rules.
This along with the entire FAQ on PFSRD is now considered to be unofficial until it is put into errata or the FAQ on this site. That mean a lot of FAQ button mashing. I will try to hit 4 or 5 a day myself.
edited: for clarity
Sorry if I seem to be asking a similar question but my lvl 4 ranger wants to take a leopard or cheetah as his animal companion. The core rule book has the following stat block for both (note that the stat block says see bestary) but the bestary has two very different stat blocks, one for each and describes them as having very different abilities and being very different creatures.
Cat, small (leopard, chertah)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 50 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4 plus trip), 2 claws (1d2); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. 4th-Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6 plus trip), 2 claws (1d3); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Qualities sprint (see the Pathfinder RPG bestary).
So my question is which parts do i take from the bestary and when there is a conflict which one is right?
Thanks
See the Bestiary for *only* the sprint Special Quality, nothing else.
So my question is which parts do i take from the bestary and when there is a conflict which one is right?
Thanks
You take nothing from the Bestiary.
See the Bestiary for *only* the sprint Special Quality, nothing else.
So both cheetah and leopard are identical creatures?
See the Bestiary for *only* the sprint Special Quality, nothing else.So both cheetah and leopard are identical creatures?
Yes... Per the PRD:
Cat, Small (Cheetah, Leopard)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 50 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4 plus trip), 2 claws (1d2); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
-- david
As written, an animal companion gains ONLY the abilities that are listed in its animal companion stat block and the basic rules for animal companions. This does mean that an animal companion doesn't gain the various racial skill modifiers a normal animal of its kind gets; if the normal animal has bonus feats, the animal companion doesn't get them either. Animal companions are different than normal animals, after all, and are built using different rules.
Sorry for the necro, but I read this and it doesn't seem to match what's currently in the rules. Did this get errated?
An animal companion's abilities are determined by the druid's level and its animal racial traits. Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics determines many of the base statistics of the animal companion.
Should "and its animal racial traits" just be removed? Should it instead say "and its Animal Companion Base Statistics?
And should the "many" instead say "all"?
There be some serious dark magic at work here....