I'd like to point out first off that I haven't been able to play Pathfinder yet (not even during the playtest). However, after reviewing the latest changes made to the Fighter class, it occurs to me that Dex-based fighters are the best sorts of fighters in the game now. This is all due to Armor Training. Assuming you use full plate, you must have a +6 dex bonus at level 20 in order to maximize the class feature's effectiveness. So is the dex-based, dual-wielding, weapon finesse-ing fighter the only sort of fighter to be in Pathfinder?
First, games like these often don't fully reveal all their secrets until you actually play them.
Yes a high-dex fighter will maximize that class feature. Don't forget about bow-based fighters (if you're going the dex route). They're pretty nasty with all those feats at their disposal.
If you want that high of a dex, what are you sacrificing? Strength? Constitution? What's the role of your fighter? Is it worth it having +4(?) more AC if that means you endup having 80 less HP at 20th level (assuming +4 less in CON)?
It's give and take. You're never going to be the best at everything no matter what class you play. The best advice is to find the role you want to play and figure out how that works in your party.
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No, it isn't. Also, a high dexterity fighter would be limited rather soon by wearing a full plate (which has a max dex of +5 for a 20th level fighter, by the way).
Two-weapon fighters, two-handed fighters, ranged fighers and sword and shield fighters, they are all viable and have their unique advantages and disadvantages.
TWFers are neither the best protected fighters nor the ones dealing the most damage. They are the best in applying critical feats, but their reliancy on full attacks to be effective is their main weakness.
Archery fighters are the ones dealing the most damage on a full attack and probably the second best protected ones. They also have the best chances to make a full attack, so they may be the strongest build.
THFers and shielded fighters are the build least reliant on full attacks. They deal more damage than sword and shield fighters but their AC is worse (about 9 points by level 20). With a speed weapon, they still get 5 attacks by level 16, with each one dealing an enormous amount of damage.
Actually..I'll be honest, I think the most common fighters are likely to be falchion or rapier weilders seeking to get as many critical feats off at once (seriously, some of them can still stump a foe even if they make the saving throw).
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Actually..I'll be honest, I think the most common fighters are likely to be falchion or rapier weilders seeking to get as many critical feats off at once (seriously, some of them can still stump a foe even if they make the saving throw).
Atually, I would say that a rogue is a bette class for a build like this, because you can add in sneak attack and bleeding attack nd do massive damage. In fact I wwould say that a rogue with bleeding attack, slow opponenent and crppling strike could makea decent substitute for a fighter. To me the best build under the Pathfinder ruls would be a sword and board, or a two weapon build. Rogue's get a slight upper hnd in finesse builds and nothing can touch a barbarian for shear two handed glory. Hwever, I don't think that the rules limit you to just one good build for a fghter, particularly with all thenew feats fighters have avalible.
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Actually..I'll be honest, I think the most common fighters are likely to be falchion or rapier weilders seeking to get as many critical feats off at once (seriously, some of them can still stump a foe even if they make the saving throw).
The best way to get as many criticals as possible would be dual kukri. You can get up to 8 attacks per round this way, which is nice, especially with autoconfirmed criticals and a threat range of 15-20.
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Atually, I would say that a rogue is a bette class for a build like this, because you can add in sneak attack and bleeding attack nd do massive damage. In fact I wwould say that a rogue with bleeding attack, slow opponenent and crppling strike could makea decent substitute for a fighter. To me the best build under the Pathfinder ruls would be a sword and board, or a two weapon build. Rogue's get a slight upper hnd in finesse builds and nothing can touch a barbarian for shear two handed glory. Hwever, I don't think that the rules limit you to just one good build for a fghter, particularly with all thenew feats fighters have avalible.
The two best options when going for criticals are fighters (because of critical mastery) or duelist (because of crippling critical).
Rogues have a slight disadvantage in two weapon fighting called 'not hitting your opponent'. They are also rather disadvantaged in terms of AC. A 15th level fighter can get a higher dexterity bonus in a fullplate than a rogue could get in a chain shirt. The difference in attack bonus between a 20th level finesse rogue and a 20th level finesse fighter would be 10. So, how would the rogue make a decent substitute for a fighter?Also, the damage capabilities of a barbarian, even a two-handed one, are inferior to those of a fighter.
The overall strongest fighter would be archery. Great AC, lots of attacks, great damage with all of them. If you are mostly interested in criticals, dual kukri would be better, though.
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The two best options when going for criticals are fighters (because of critical mastery) or duelist (because of crippling critical).
Rogues have a slight disadvantage in two weapon fighting called 'not hitting your opponent'. They are also rather disadvantaged in terms of AC. A 15th level fighter can get a higher dexterity bonus in a fullplate than a rogue could get in a chain shirt. The difference in attack bonus between a 20th level finesse rogue and a 20th level finesse fighter would be 10. So, how would the rogue make a decent substitute for a fighter?
Also, the damage capabilities of a barbarian, even a two-handed one, are inferior to those of a fighter.
The overall strongest fighter would be archery. Great AC, lots of attacks, great damage with all of them. If you are mostly interested in criticals, dual kukri would be better, though.
See, this is why I don't usually post in this part of the boards. First off, I never said anything about rogues and two weapon fighting. In fact I said that fighters are the best at two weapon fighting. I also said that rogues make better finesse attackers when you build the rogue with Bleeding Attack, Slow Opponent, and Crippling Strike. I admit that they don't have as much going as a fighter in terms of AC or BAB, but when you figure in that bleeding attack causes your opponent to take 10 damage per turn regardless of any other damage he takes, Slow Opponent prevents him from making AoOs, and crippling strike inflicts Str damage as well as +10d6 sneak attack damage at 20th level, I would say that more than makes up for the slightly less chance of hitting. Add in a couple of feats and magic items to buff the rogue's AC and give him kukri's and the Improved Critical feat and you have a force to be reckoned with.
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See, this is why I don't usually post in this part of the boards. First off, I never said anything about rogues and two weapon fighting. In fact I said that fighters are the best at two weapon fighting. I also said that rogues make better finesse attackers when you build the rogue with Bleeding Attack, Slow Opponent, and Crippling Strike. I admit that they don't have as much going as a fighter in terms of AC or BAB, but when you figure in that bleeding attack causes your opponent to take 10 damage per turn regardless of any other damage he takes, Slow Opponent prevents him from making AoOs, and crippling strike inflicts Str damage as well as +10d6 sneak attack damage at 20th level, I would say that more than makes up for the slightly less chance of hitting. Add in a couple of feats and magic items to buff the rogue's AC and give him kukri's and the Improved Critical feat and you have a force to be reckoned with.
An 11th level fighter can take bleeding critical, dealing 2d6 points of bleed damage (which will stack with itself), while a 11th level rogue would only cause 6 points of bleed damage with an attack (which won't stack with itself). At 20th level, the fighter not only autoconfirms all critical threats, he's also able to use two critical feats at once, for example bleeding critical and stunning critical, causing opponents not only to lose 2d6 hp points per round for each critical hit but also makes them either staggered (if they succeed on a DC 30 fortitude save) or stunned (if they don't succeed).
And 10 points of difference is no 'slightly less chance of hitting'. Nearly any option or item the rogue could use to increase his attack or AC is also available to the fighter.I'm not saying that rogues are weak, they just aren't as strong in terms of combat prowess as fighters are. Which is fine because they get other features. But saying that rogues are better finesse fighters than fighters just isn't true anymore in Pathfinder. And using a kukri without two weapon fighting seems wasteful. Especially if you are a finesse fighter who has high enough dexterity anyway.
After a lot of maths i am pretty convinced that a dual wield fighter is capaple of dealing with the "dragons revisited" CR 20 Black Dragon on his own. Getting about 200+ Dam/Round @ average with a solid build.
(~2 Full Attacks and the dragon will not get you killed in that time)A Rogue is never able to do such things.
And please keep in mind that the 200+ Dam/Round are not the maximum.
The Dragon has an AC of 39 wich is devastating for a rogue wich is Dualwielding. Even without Dual Wield its pretty undoable.10D6 Sneak are ~35 Dam, thats only the bonus damage of a single fighter attack. ( 8ST + 5WEP +4WS + 4WT + 12PA = 33)
I gladly would give some detailed maths, maybe with Jadeites help.
But not today, need to sleep *g*(Not to mention that a ranged fighter would be even more efficient)
Couple of things....
The Rogue will probably be invisible [greater] or have mirror images, and have displacement when attacking the dragon, which means he's likely to survival as long as the fighter. Add flanking and you're negated 4AC, and more if you feint. Also the rogue will laugh at the breath weapon. Also, against a monster with crazy AC, the fighter can miss, but the Rogue can use True Strike.
It comes down to build and flavour. You need to factor in all the class feature Fighters and Rogues have. You can't pick all the good bits from the fighter and ignore the versatility UMD grants the Rogue.
On the downside for the Rogue, you can only apply one ability to each attack so bleeding or slow or crippling, not all of them!
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I would say that based upon the variety of posts already posted to the OP that we see there really is no such thing as "The Only Viable Fighter Build." Of course there never was.
There have always been variety and will continue to be so. Simply because what one build excels at, it is weak in other areas.
There are fundamentally three different builds: STR, DEX, and CON build fighters. Within each of those three there are a variety more. But within the fundamental three any one build will excel at its specialty and be weak in the other two.
I would say that based upon the variety of posts already posted to the OP that we see there really is no such thing as "The Only Viable Fighter Build." Of course there never was.
There have always been variety and will continue to be so. Simply because what one build excels at, it is weak in other areas.
There are fundamentally three different builds: STR, DEX, and CON build fighters. Within each of those three there are a variety more. But within the fundamental three any one build will excel at its specialty and be weak in the other two.
Krome I would add one more: The middle of the road fighter, where you attempt to balance all three.
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Couple of things....The Rogue will probably be invisible [greater] or have mirror images, and have displacement when attacking the dragon, which means he's likely to survival as long as the fighter. Add flanking and you're negated 4AC, and more if you feint. Also the rogue will laugh at the breath weapon. Also, against a monster with crazy AC, the fighter can miss, but the Rogue can use True Strike.
It comes down to build and flavour. You need to factor in all the class feature Fighters and Rogues have. You can't pick all the good bits from the fighter and ignore the versatility UMD grants the Rogue.
On the downside for the Rogue, you can only apply one ability to each attack so bleeding or slow or crippling, not all of them!
What stops the figher from being invisible? What stops the fighter from wearing a ring of evasion? What stops the fighter from learning Use magic device? His skill will be about 3 points lower that that of the rogue, but hey, it's only 3 points. UMD is nice, but it isn't an exclusive class feature of the rogue. Never was and certainly isn't now since the change to cross class skills.
Also, feinting against a dragon not only has limited chance of success, it also grants no additional benefit if you are already flanking him. Not to mention that the DC to feint against a CR 20 black dragon would be 48. Which would be rather difficult, even with skill mastery.
I've got three words for ya: gloves of dexterity!
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I would say that based upon the variety of posts already posted to the OP that we see there really is no such thing as "The Only Viable Fighter Build." Of course there never was.
There have always been variety and will continue to be so. Simply because what one build excels at, it is weak in other areas.
There are fundamentally three different builds: STR, DEX, and CON build fighters. Within each of those three there are a variety more. But within the fundamental three any one build will excel at its specialty and be weak in the other two.
How would a CON build fighter look like? And how would he compare against a druids animal companion?
I've got three words for ya: gloves of dexterity!
And I got four for you! Belt of Physical Perfection!
And I have 126ish!
What stops the figher from being invisible?
Money
What stops the fighter from wearing a ring of evasion?
Money
What stops the fighter from learning Use magic device? His skill will be about 3 points lower that that of the rogue, but hey, it's only 3 points.
So your Fighter has a Charisma score as high as a Rogue, on top of the high Str, Dex & Con. I doubt it.
UMD is nice, but it isn't an exclusive class feature of the rogue. Never was and certainly isn't now since the change to cross class skills.
Yes it was previously restricted. It isn't currently.
Also, feinting against a dragon not only has limited chance of success, it also grants no additional benefit if you are already flanking him. Not to mention that the DC to feint against a CR 20 black dragon would be 48. Which would be rather difficult, even with skill mastery.
Flanking grants a +2 bonus to attack rolls. Feinting [as well as invisibility] renders the target Flat-footed, which is better. [Dragons however do only have a Dex of 10]
I'm only guessing here but I'm going to assume your Fighter has high Wisdom too... and he never failed his Will saves against Frightful Presence DC of 31.
Money only goes so far. Most classes can replicate other classes class-features with large amounts of cash. But that will mean less money for all the things your Fighter should be spending his cash on.
Sorry if I come across sarcastic, but you're not being realistic or reasonable. I think we should tear-up our character sheets and all play your Superman Fighter build...
I've got three words for ya: gloves of dexterity!And I got four for you! Belt of Physical Perfection!
Oooo, I want one of those.
But yeah, what he said. :)
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How would a CON build fighter look like? And how would he compare against a druids animal companion?I would say that based upon the variety of posts already posted to the OP that we see there really is no such thing as "The Only Viable Fighter Build." Of course there never was.
There have always been variety and will continue to be so. Simply because what one build excels at, it is weak in other areas.
There are fundamentally three different builds: STR, DEX, and CON build fighters. Within each of those three there are a variety more. But within the fundamental three any one build will excel at its specialty and be weak in the other two.
A CON fighter, to me anyway, is the quintessential tank. The battlefield controller.
Primary stat goes to CON for HP, add in Toughness. Go for the heaviest armor available and shield. Get the highest AC you can possibly get. Take feats that limit your opponents movement or allow you to neutralize their abilities.
Excellent feat choices include the Combat Expertise tree, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still especially, all of the Critical Feats, Disruptive and Spellbreaker, Endurance, Diehard, Lunge, Strike Back, Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display.
You're not trying to do the most damage, cause the rogue and later wizard will usually beat you. You're not trying to get the most attacks and again do the most damage. Instead you are trying to be the toughest guy on the field, with the highest AC, that can keep anyone from ever getting to the wizard who is going to be blasting away, and lets the rogue get into position to sneak attack like crazy.
High AC and high HP are the characteristics of a CON fighter. At least all the ones I have seen.
And yeah there is that 4th fighter that tries to balance everything. Definitely a place for them too. May not excel at any one thing more than any other fighter, but will almost always have something to do and be useful in nearly every situation.
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Best thing a fighter can have against a dragon is a tower shield and LOTS of healing potions. Hunker down behind the tower shield and you can't be targeted, drink them potions and live to fight another round. Just hope the dragon can't move and get a shot around your shield...
Money always seems to be my Achilles's Heel. I know what I want to buy, but never have the cash.
BTW Brilliant Energy weapons are THE BOMB. Essentially get to use their Touch AC (some exceptions sure) so you can Power Attack till the cows come home! Has drawbacks where you can't use it on certain types, ok, but most of the time you get to got to TOWN on the critter... on costs +4 enchantment... that's all... *sigh*
To the way I put it to my players when they start talking about viable (not best at a certain job, but viable):
There are as many viable builds for a class as there are people playing them in campaigns longer than a session or two.
Every group is different...a heavy rp group probably won't care about being the most effective as much as being fluffy, as long as they can survive...on the other hand, groups who act like its a tactical simulation wargame probably care a bit more the crunchiness...both kinds of build are viable because they fit the campaign they are in...
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And I have 126ish!
Money
What stops the figher from being invisible?
Of which the rogue has an unlimited supply?
What stops the fighter from wearing a ring of evasion?Money
Of which the rogue has an unlimited supply?
What stops the fighter from learning Use magic device? His skill will be about 3 points lower that that of the rogue, but hey, it's only 3 points.So your Fighter has a Charisma score as high as a Rogue, on top of the high Str, Dex & Con. I doubt it.
So, the rogue has a lower Con score than the fighter. Who has a better hit die anyway.
UMD is nice, but it isn't an exclusive class feature of the rogue. Never was and certainly isn't now since the change to cross class skills.
Yes it was previously restricted. It isn't currently.
So, should we base this argument on the current rules or the previous ones? In 3.5, there were options like acid flasks that just don't work anymore in Pathfinder. In 3.5, I won't argue that the rogue is stronger than the fighter, but this isn't 3.5.
Also, feinting against a dragon not only has limited chance of success, it also grants no additional benefit if you are already flanking him. Not to mention that the DC to feint against a CR 20 black dragon would be 48. Which would be rather difficult, even with skill mastery.Flanking grants a +2 bonus to attack rolls. Feinting [as well as invisibility] renders the target Flat-footed, which is better. [Dragons however do only have a Dex of 10]
Flanking increases the fighters chance of hitting, too. As well as well as being invisible.
I'm only guessing here but I'm going to assume your Fighter has high Wisdom too... and he never failed his Will saves against Frightful Presence DC of 31.
How isn't that a problem for the rogue? He has a bad will save to and, unlike the fighter, doesn't even gain a bonus against fear effects.
Money only goes so far. Most classes can replicate other classes class-features with large amounts of cash. But that will mean less money for all the things your Fighter should be spending his cash on.
Okay. But without money to buy stuff, UMD is rather useless. It's the rogue who only works when replicating other class abilities, not the fighter.
Sorry if I come across sarcastic, but you're not being realistic or reasonable. I think we should tear-up our character sheets and all play your Superman Fighter build...
I'm not saying that rogues aren't useful characters. They just are in no way able to be a fighter substitute. The fighter isn't even the best class to deal with a dragon (that would be a paladin), but the rogue is obviously handicapped against strong enemies.
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A CON fighter, to me anyway, is the quintessential tank. The battlefield controller.Primary stat goes to CON for HP, add in Toughness. Go for the heaviest armor available and shield. Get the highest AC you can possibly get. Take feats that limit your opponents movement or allow you to neutralize their abilities.
Excellent feat choices include the Combat Expertise tree, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still especially, all of the Critical Feats, Disruptive and Spellbreaker, Endurance, Diehard, Lunge, Strike Back, Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display.
You're not trying to do the most damage, cause the rogue and later wizard will usually beat you. You're not trying to get the most attacks and again do the most damage. Instead you are trying to be the toughest guy on the field, with the highest AC, that can keep anyone from ever getting to the wizard who is going to be blasting away, and lets the rogue get into position to sneak attack like crazy.
High AC and high HP are the characteristics of a CON fighter. At least all the ones I have seen.
And yeah there is that 4th fighter that tries to balance everything. Definitely a place for them too. May not excel at any one thing more than any other fighter, but will almost always have something to do and be useful in nearly every situation.
The problem I see with such builds is, that by level 9, the boar companion of a druid can have an AC of 32. Without any buffs or magical equipment. A fighter would have a hard time competing with that.
By 20th level, the boar will have a natural armor bonus of +18, more than a fighter could achieve even with a ring of protection +5 and a tower shield +5.And the boar isn't even among the best animal companions. By 20th level, even a big cat animal companion will have a natural armor bonus of +15, while still retaining impressive offensive capabilities.
Of all possible fighter builds, the defensive ones are probably the weakest. They aren't 4E's sticky defenders, they are just unhittable guys in armor that are easily ignored in favor of more fragile, more dangerous targets.
Even with a sword and shield fighter, you are better of putting your points in strentgh than constitution.
STR 30 ( 16 + 3Lv + 6 Belt +5 Inherent)
DEX 25 ( 17 + 2 Lv + 6 Belt )
CON 18 ( 12 + 6 Belt )
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10HP: ~ 232 (19D10 (~104,5) + 90)
AC: 39+ (Base 10 + 14 Fullplate + Amulett 5 + Ring 5 + Dex 5)
Dexterity not fully used sadly, searching for alternative für AC 41.H 1 Two Weapon Fighting
S 1 Weapon Focus [Kukri]
F 1 Double Slice
F 2 Power Attack
S 3
F 4 Weapon Spezialisation [Kukri]
S 5 Lunge
F 6 Impr. Two Weapon Fighting
S 7 Disruptive
F 8 Greater Weapon Focus [Kukri]
S 9 Improved Critical [Kukri]
F 10 Critical Focus
S 11 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
F 12 Greater Weapon Spezialisation [Kukri]
S 13 Penetrating Strike
F 14 Bleeding Critical
S 15 Staggering Critical
F 16 Greater Penetrating Strike
S 17 Stunning Critical
F 18 Critical Mastery
S 19 Spellbreaker
F 20 ?Attack:
Base +20
Weapon +5
Str + 10
Weapontraining +4
Weaponfocus +2= +41 -2 Dualwield = 39
Dualwield Aggainst the Blackdragon(from Dragons revisited):
+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24
100%/100%/80%/80%/55%/55%/30%With Power Attack (-6)
+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18
75%/75%/50%/50%/25%/25%/5%Damage :
Base 1W4
STR +10
Weaponspec. +4
Weapontraining +4
Weapon +5
= 1W4 +23 15-20/x3 = 25,5 SP
+ PA = 1W4 + 35 = 37,5 SP Mainhand
= 1W4 + 29 = 31,5 SP OffhandFullattack against the Dragon:
Dualwielding (without PA):
2x (25,5 SP * 1) = 51
2x (25,5 SP * 0,8) = 40,8
2x (25,5 SP * 0,55) = 28,05
1x (25,5 SP * 0,3) = 7,65
2x 51 SP (likely to score 2 Criticals with a 30% cance dealing +200% Damage)= 229,5 Damage without further Wrapon Enchantments like icy burst or that kind.
And without buffs. And without to count that Bleeding in.Dualwielding (with PA):
37,5 * 0,75 = 28,125
31,5 * 0,75 = 23,625
37,5 * 0,5 = 18,75
31,5 * 0,5 = 15,75
37,5 * 0,25 = 9,375
31,5 * 0,25 = 7,875
37,5 * 0,05 = 1,875
2x 69 SP (just using 50/50 chance wether off or mainhand scores the critical)
= 243,375 DamageThe Dragon has about 468 HP, so...
All that effort and he then killed a fellow party member because he failed his save vs. Confusion, or whatever other Will based spells the CL13 Dragon Sorcerer has! [I'm only joking!]
It always sounds like your rogue has an 18 in every ability score.
Surely he has not and it´s just a impression i get.
Actually there is no "my rogue". I'm not cheering at the rogue per se. I was pointing out that the 2 example Fighter builds look nice on paper but in practice things don't work that way.
The idea that the Fighter had maxed out UMD plus all the other stuff was just silly, and very unlikely.
90% of games probably don't reach that level anyway!
Play whatever feels right to you, regardless of Class or Build. As long as it has lots of roleplaying in it, everything will be fine.
I'd have to say that in no way is the 'dex' fighter the only build. But dexterity is certainly a very useful attribute for nearly all fighter builds now.
My personal faverate fighter at the momment is a variant on the sword and shield fighter.
Put them in full plate, put their AC as high as it will go and then laugh as stand still, step up, disruptive, spell breaker and crit feats shut down the enemy who is hard pressed to even hit the fighter in return. :D
I have built no less than a dozen fighters under Beta (a couple played long term under the Beta Rules) and am duplicating that with the new rules.
If anything the new rules allow a fighter to have far more versatility than ever before. Under the older rule sets (V3.5 and Beta) you did have certain sterotypes you sort of had to go with due to the things that go with Armor - that has changed now.
DEX is in no way the best Build - no way. As stated above by several people you sacrifice ability scores for one another - so a high DEX usually means a low something else. What some say here is you have a 10 DEX or a 18+ DEX; nothing inbetween - which is not the way to think effectively.
To start off, thinking from the Min/Max perspective, if you wanted a fighter in Full Plate (or really any heavy armor) under v3.5 or Beta then having more than a 10-12 DEX was a "waste" since you would never be able to use the extra DEX in your AC. You would never get an item to enhance DEX and really the only answer to that problem is Mithral. However that can't be obtained until much later in the character's life and by that point ability score increases and investments in other ability score enhancements have already been made.
Now having a heavy armor fighter with a 14 or 16 DEX is attainable and outright desireable! Not to mention fighters are no longer hampered by movement restrictions in medium armor and in heavy armor after 7th level.
This with changes to other classes make the fighter, in general, the tankish (whether that means a fast light tank or a heavy front line battle tank) master he should be above that of most others.
...STR 30 ( 16 + 3Lv + 6 Belt +5 Inherent)
DEX 25 ( 17 + 2 Lv + 6 Belt )
CON 18 ( 12 + 6 Belt )
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10HP: ~ 232 (19D10 (~104,5) + 90)
AC: 39+ (Base 10 + 14 Fullplate + Amulett 5 + Ring 5 + Dex 5)
Dexterity not fully used sadly,...
SOOOOOOO many people create builds that fit the particular situation they are in - can't do that in the game:
"Hold on GM; I gotta make a new fighter now to take on this new XYZ monster you just plopped in front of me; the guy I have this second isn't quite the right fit for the battle..."
Ya - GM's always allow that...
Fighting other humanoids that are NOT fighters or casters - seems to work fine for the most part. As noted above by someone else your saves will be pathetic (as noted above - Will saves for example; the Bane of all fighter types). But there is more out there than non fighters or casters. Another fighter of equal level with a different set of stats would crush this guy without question.
Additionally: this works just dandy if you start off at that level; not building a character from the ground up over time. Its a lot easier to create a high level character than build one level by level.
Not to mention the fact that I can make something with more AC, more balanced ability scores but does a bit less damage - but hit more often - irregardless it will take me longer than you but I'll take down that bad guy (or this guy) taking less damage myself as well as have better saves and the like to take on otehr party members with other abilities besides being a target for my sword. I won't get into a big numbers game with it on the board but those who know their stuff know what I'm talking about.
As noted above by someone else your saves will be pathetic (as noted above - Will saves for example; the Bane of all fighter types).
"Your" ?? There is no "your". I didn't post a build.
i for myself just wanted to clearify that i am pretty sure that NO Rogue ever will beat a fighter in terms of dished out hurt unless its a absolutley pro rogue situation.
Just wanted to point out...
Fighters excel in head on combat...rogues excel in dirty fights. Any straight class rogue who goes head to head with a straight class figter is going to get what they deserve. A rogue playing to his strengths can keep pace with a fighter on damage (outdoing each other will come down to dice rolls, over a campaign, both played by smart players, with equal parity in gear and stats ect, they will come out pretty even (maybe a 1% difference) assuming the rogue cares to go for a combat focus.
Jade, when you are doing dmg totals, there is no thing such as a 100% hit or a 0%. You always hit on a 20, and always miss on a 1.
With +39 base to hit a black Dragon, your progression would be:
95/80/55/30. Small but proper note.
You can also add up dmg much faster by simply totalling the above (260%, or 2.6 x ) and multiplying it by the average damage/blow.
This is also why all fighters should be working on maximizing their TH numbers. Every single + Th once you are 'no miss except on 1' is +15% on dmg if you get iteratives. Those iteratives hitting is the truest power of the Fighter class.
You are also mistaken on Full Plate maxing at +5 Dex. Mithral Full Plate maxes at +7, or a 24 Dex. No fighter at that level should be without it, which is a shame. Ideally, they should have adamantine, but their penultimate class ability doesn't stack with adamantine armor!
A +6 Enhancement bonus and +5 Inherent bonuses (tomes/wishes) mean a +11 bonus. Starting with a mere 13 Dex, a Fighter can max out his Dex/AC in mithral full plate without putting a single point into Dex.
The Standard Array is 15 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 int and 8 Cha, so that actually fits in neatly.
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Also note that the superiority of THW builds is now non-existent. Heavy weapon builds basically provide a fixed bonus...higher dmg dice and +50% of Str. At level 20 with a 30 Str, that works out to +7.5 dmg per blow. Over 4 swings, that's a mere +30 dmg.
A Sword and Board fighter hitting ONCE with a Shield Bash will do roughly equal damage to that. The only advantage for the THW guy is in single attacks, and their advantage is now fixed because of the change to Power Attack. The Sword and Board guy can actually unsling the shield and do all the dmg of the THW guy, -2.5 (longsword vs Greatsword), then pick up the shield and have a glorious AC again.
A dexterity Fighter only gets a better AC in late game, when he can afford mithral armor and/or his dex bonus in armor is much higher. For the price of mithral heavy armor, you can also purchase a heavy shield +3 for +5 AC vs 2 AC from Mithral (which also requires you to have the higher dex). For 100,000 gp (or half that if you use Craft Ranks and Magical Artisan), you can make yourself a +5 Bashing Shield with +5 Defender Spikes. With Shield Focus, that's a neat +13 to your AC, and unlike Armor spikes, there's no question that it's always being wielded. If you want a weapon, you've got a 2-12 +5 weapon on your arm, still granting you +8 to AC with Improved Shield Bash.
Archers always look best on offense because they will get full attacks off the most. Thankfully, weapons training means you can be pretty adept at using a bow even if your focus is Sword and/or Board.
==Aelryinth
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Yeah, the "fullattack option" most of the time is a reason why the ranged varations surely develop a huge damage potential
It's one of the reasons. Another one would be the way power attack and deadly aim work. With Power Attack, you only get one point of damage per -1 on the attack roll with your offhand weapon, while with deadly aim, each attack gains two points of damage per -1 on the attack roll.
Also the extra attacks of dual wield are at -7 and -12 attack bonus whereas the archer gains the option of manyshot as an additional attack as -2 (if he uses it together with rapid shot).It's two attacks at a lower bonus that deal less damage vs one extra attack at full bonus that deals full damage. The damage capabilities of dual wield and archery should be about equal, although it might favor one build or the another, depending on the AC of the target, as well as situational modifiers such as concealment (which the ranged fighter gets to ignore to a certain degree).
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By the way, a rogue using the same options does 1d4+23=24, 1d4+23=26, 1d4+23=24, 1d4+23=25, 1d4+23=24, 1d4+23=24, 1d4+23=25, 1d4+23=24 with her kukris and 10d6=34, 10d6=27, 10d6=41, 10d6=47, 10d6=35, 10d6=33, 10d6=43, 10d6=31 sneak attack damage. These are the to-hit rolls 1d20+30=33, 1d20+30=43, 1d20+30=44, 1d20+30=43, 1d20+30=39, 1d20+30=38, 1d20+30=46, 1d20+30=46 based on that, the rogue only misses the CR 20 dragon twice and is doing almost twice as much damage as the fighter because of sneak attack.
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By the way, a rogue using the same options does 1d4+23=24, 1d4+23=26, 1d4+23=24, 1d4+23=25, 1d4+23=24, 1d4+23=24, 1d4+23=25, 1d4+23=24 with her kukris and 10d6=34, 10d6=27, 10d6=41, 10d6=47, 10d6=35, 10d6=33, 10d6=43, 10d6=31 sneak attack damage. These are the to-hit rolls 1d20+30=33, 1d20+30=43, 1d20+30=44, 1d20+30=43, 1d20+30=39, 1d20+30=38, 1d20+30=46, 1d20+30=46 based on that, the rogue only misses the CR 20 dragon twice and is doing almost twice as much damage as the fighter because of sneak attack.
How does the rogue manage to retain his full attack bonus on all of this attacks?
A rogue at 20 with a 30 Dex, +5 weapon and flanking so she gets her SA is at a whopping +32 to hit, -2 if using TWF.
A fighter at 20 with a 30 str, +5 weapon, +4 Weapon Mastery is at +39 to hit, without getting, Oh, the weapon spec tree or additional tricks. Maybe +2 for flanking.
This means a Rogue's hit chances, assuming she blew the feats on the TWF tree, are 70/45/20 base...60/35/10 with TWF. On average, against an AC 39 foe, she'll do 105% dmg with each hand, or land about two attacks on average.
A Greatsword wielder has little to no advantage against sword and board, and definitely fails to Two Weapon Fighting. Since they don't get a 2:1 on Power Attack anymore, their only real benefit is having a bigger weapon and full Str x 1.5 on each attack. As I mentioned above, a Greatsword deals 2.5 more pts then a Longsword, and a 30 Str deals +5 Str dmg.
Wahoo. Across 4 swings, that's 30 points of dmg. Or, in other words, about ONE off hand attack.
So, Greatsword does 7.5 pts more then me when we both get one attack, we do the same dmg when we both get full attacks...and his AC is 8-13 points lower then mine.
I think I can deal with that.
Power Attack was the only real saving grace for THW fighting. With it being restricted to one weapon now, it has no significant advantage to offset the loss in AC. The only way it is a keeper is if you allow animated shields...and that simply brings it about back to par, for significant monetary outlay.
It also works out fairly well if you take cost of superior enhancements. The THW guy can get a sword +10 for the cost of two weapons +7...or a +7 weapon and an Uber shield (+6 armor/+6 weapon). Thus, he can more easily get things like Greater Wounding or Speed, assuming he doesn't grab an animated shield.
Note also that a TWF can also grab animateds, but we're talking cash outlay again.
The strength of TWF is that it applies dmg bonuses IN FULL...twice. Let me give you an example.
A Greatsword is 2-12 dmg, +1.5x Strength of 30, +5 Enhancement, +4 Weapon training. 7+15+5+4 is 31 dmg.
Two Shortswords are 2-12 dmg combined, 1.5x Str of 30 (divided by hand), +5 enhancement TWICE, +4 Weapon training, TWICE. 7+15+10+8 is 40 dmg...significantly better then Greatsword guy. The only thing holding it back is the -2 to hit, effectively a 10% dmg penalty per attack, or reducing dmg to 36 per swing.
Sure, THW is the king of the one blow...by 7.5 dmg. Yay. Full attacks, TWF rules now, which is appropriate in its own way.
Sword and Board, however, can steal the thunder of either build. Improved Shield Bash allows you to keep shield AC and still attack. A bashing Spiked Heavy Shield does 2-12 dmg...a greatsword in your off hand.
Getting the 19 Dex for a second off hand attack is a matter of magical investment. With a base 13 Dex, that's a +6 Dex enhancer for 36K. Sure, you can't do it til you're higher level...but once you have it, you can go right for 3 attacks and put the TWF guy with his dinky shortswords to shame. You'll be doing just as much dmg as him, with an AC considerably better.
If you don't need the shield, you can sling it away and put two hands on your longsword, and you're only 2.5 pts of dmg behind Greatsword guy...only you can put your shield back on.
SAB builds rock. The main cost is the feats to let you use the Shield...Shield Spec, Improved Shield Bash, and you'll probably want Shield Ward to add it to your Touch AC and Reflex save. This compares favorably to the TWF tree and investment, and the crit feats the Greatsword Guy is going to take.
And if you do the math? The SAB owns both other builds in a straight up fight. Superior AC is a killer...and you get a lot of AC for what little dmg you are behind, if at all.
===Aelryinth
Where does the +5 inherent Str bonus come from?STR 30 ( 16 + 3Lv + 6 Belt +5 Inherent)
As I noted, Inherent bonuses come from using Wishes or Tomes for permanent increases to ability scores. They are limited to +5, and at 25k per +, not cheap.
==Aelryinth
As for AC, hmm.
F/20 with Mithral Full Plate +5 (Base +13)
Dex 24 = +7 AC. (Base 13, +6 Belt, +5 Tome)
SAB build, H Shield +5, Shield Focus = +8 (+13 with +5 SPikes/Defender)
Ring of Prot +5
Nat Armor +5.
Looks like a 48 (53) AC. With Shield Ward, Touch AC would be 30, potentially 35 w Defender, and up to 40 if the Plate is Energized.
With Defender going, a comparable Non-Spec tree Fighter build with a +39 to hit needs a 14 to hit him with the Primary Attack. He, on the other hand, hits the shieldless Fighter's AC on anything but a nat 1.
If you like Augment Crystals from the Magical Item Compendium, a Missile Ward stone gives +5 AC against all Ranged attacks. Archers should cry.
And this is without DISMAL shenanigans (Stacking Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale And Luck bonuses on, say a Ring, for less then half the cost of a +5 bonus otherwise).
=+Aelryinth