Fighter Less Powerfull? That's a bit of a streatch, isn't it?
No it isn't. We are talking smite. And when a Paladin smites it last until the foe is down and the Paladin get charisma bonus on attack and paladin level on damage or paladin level x 2 on damage. So no need to power attack. Also a fighter needs con since he can't heal himself. The Paladin can heal herself as a swift action.
The fighter needs dex and som int to pick all feats and some wis because of the boor will saves.The Paladin can dump wis due to the charisma bonus on save and good will saves. She do not need int and have no need to boost dex or con as high as a fighter since she can heal herself. And when using smite she get charisma bonus to AC. Then we have spells like dispel evil, holy sword, etc.
Fighting evil at higher levels the Paladin rule. At level 14 she can smite 5 times per day and cast holy sword two time per day and use divine bond to enhance her sword 4 times per day. Etc etc. And smite evil attacks by pass ALL damage reduction, blunt, good, cold Iron..all.
Etc, etc.
I like the Paladin. No need to nerf her. I just think the fighter and especially the Barbarian could have gotten some more love. IMHO.
The paladin will also be spending time healing his allies. It is not like he gets to attack all day, while everyone else just sits back and watches. If the monster can hurt the party bad enough the cleric, and the paladin might both be healing and/or removing status affects on their turn.
So the Paladin is not more powerful than other thanks because he can also heal and remove status affects?
What would a fighter do in the same situation? Less powerful and he can't heal others. Suck it up and go on hitting evil foes with success.
My point was that for those thinking the paladin will steal all the attention because he will be smiting all day, they need to realize he has other things to do as well, so there will be foes left for the other PC's to fight.
I like the Paladin. No need to nerf her. I just think the fighter and especially the Barbarian could have gotten some more love. IMHO.
I agree.
I agree strongly with the barbarian part, not the fighter. I love melee classes and I think all of them are awesome now, EXCEPT for the Barbarian, which I love... but got little love...
My point was that for those thinking the paladin will steal all the attention because he will be smiting all day, they need to realize he has other things to do as well, so there will be foes left for the other PC's to fight.
true :-)
I agree strongly with the barbarian part, not the fighter. I love melee classes and I think all of them are awesome now, EXCEPT for the Barbarian, which I love... but got little love...
yes, you might be right.
I agree that smite evil IS evil now but I'm not sure that it's unbalancing.
First of all compared to a fighters new weapon group attack and damage bonus it's quite comparable, a fighter gets those bonuses all the time and is free to dump all of his resources into strength whereas a paladin needs to split his efforts into several different stats. It looks to me that a fighter will hit more often than a smiting paladin (which means comparable damage from more hits).
I also feel that as far as the DR is concerned it would only matter at low levels that a paladin can ignore DR and at low levels DR is lower so ignoring it has less impact. At high levels melee is almost pointless, if a paladin decides to smite some big baddie then the enemy caster can just maze the paladin away or block him with a wall of force or any number of things. So good for the paladin if he gets a round of smiting in, cause he's going bye-bye in the next couple of actions.
also, the "group" smite evil says that it affects all the paladins allies does that mean the paladin himself is NOT affected, if so that is kind of an interesting moral dilemma for a paladin, to use smite for himself and get all the glory or do the smart thing to defeat the evil creature and give all his allies the power to defeat the creature.
At sixth level, the paladin in my party hits slightly better but deals less damage on a smite vs. big evil than the fighter does on any attack. I'm not feeling the need to house rule it.
aaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnddddddddddd .... We are Back! ;)
I agree with you there matey.
aaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnddddddddddd .... We are Back! ;)
I agree with you there matey.
Heh, woops.
Linked here from the poll thread. Didn't realize it had been quiet for 9 days... sorry about the raise thread.
I am not complaining, it is my child after all ;)
Raise Thread away, love that spell ;)
also, the "group" smite evil says that it affects all the paladins allies does that mean the paladin himself is NOT affected, if so that is kind of an interesting moral dilemma for a paladin, to use smite for himself and get all the glory or do the smart thing to defeat the evil creature and give all his allies the power to defeat the creature.
The 3.5 ruling (that I don't always agree with) is that you are not your own ally. That's why the bard's inspire courage specifically says "all your allies (including yourself)". If Aura of Justice or whichever aura it is doesn't include that "you too" clause, then no, it won't work for the paladin too.
At sixth level, the paladin in my party hits slightly better but deals less damage on a smite vs. big evil than the fighter does on any attack. I'm not feeling the need to house rule it.
I think that might just be those particular characters. How is a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls causing more damage than Charisma to attack rolls and +6 to damage? While I disagree with the "Only lasts so long" acting as a balancing factor, I can at least see where people are comming from saying that. Saying "A fighter does more damage" is just false, since a fighter will gain, at best, +5 damage from Weapon Specilization and, at most, +4 from fighter specific feats. How would a potential +9 compare to +20 (minimum) at 20th level? Or, at level 6, a possible +3 damage (from Weapon Training and Weapon Specialization) outshines +6 damage?
Again, while I disagree with the "Can't be used all the time" arugment, I feel it has more merit than "It's not outright more powerful" line of defense.
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Here are the numbers at 7th level with Greatswords:
Paladin 7
St 18+2 (20), Cha 14.
(H) Weapon Focus: Greatsword, (1) Power Attack, (3) Cleave, (5) Great Cleave, (7) Vital Strike.
Belt of Incredible Strength +2
+7/+2 BAB +5 Str +1 Wpn focus +1 Magic Weapon = +14/+9 Melee
2d6 +7 Str +1 Magic Wpn = 2d6+8
+14/+9 Melee (+1 Greatsword, 2d6+8) or
+16/+11 Smite (+1 Greatsword, 2d6+15 or 2d6+21) or
+14/+9 Power Attack and Smite (+1 Greatsword, 2d6+21 or 2d6+28)
Fighter 7
Str 20+2 (22).
Same Feats as above + Weapon Specialization + 3 more feats.
Weapon Mastery (Heavy Blades)
Belt of Incredible Strength +2
+7/+2 BAB +6 Str +1 Wpn Focus +1 Magic Wpn +1 Wpn Mstry = +16/+11 Melee
2d6 +9 Str +1 Magic Wpn +2 Wpn Spec +1 Wpn Mastery = 2d6+13
+16/+11 Melee (+1 Greatsword, 2d6+13) or
+14/+9 Power Attack (+1 Greatsword, 2d6+19)
So all the time the Fighter will be running around with pretty similar bonuses to hit (same) and damage (+19 vs +21/+28 Smite) as the Paladin using his Smite. The big difference damage-wise remains that the Paladin's Smite still bypasses all DR. Of course, the paladin is still limited to a number of uses/day but even without the smite the Paladin can still Power Attack at +12/+7 Melee (2d6+14). Its -2 to-hit and -5 less damage than the fighter but not too shabby.
So really a Paladin's Smite real power lies behind the ability to ignore DR/day and not the extra damage. Take that DR penetration away and Smite starts to look pretty lackluster it seems.
Numbers
Don't forget the double-damage vrs specific targets. As said before, I don't have a problem with the paladin being able to add his level to damage, or even bypassing the damage reduction, it's the lasting until the end of the fighter and double damage part that gets me.
I am playing a half-orc paladin of Serenrae in Legacy of Fire. Smite evil has come in very handy the 4 times in the first book I've actually used it. It's a good ability, but it only works 1-2 times per day at low level and you don't want to use it on a gnoll and get ambushed later by some crazy demon thing so a lot of times I found myself not using it in an entire adventuring day. I felt really underpowered last night as we went through an overrun temple of Serenrae and there was a lesser strand of prayer beads, a pariapt of wisdom +2, a phylactery of faithfulness, and an amulet of fireballs which I insisted the group not touch because it would be wrong to steal from the temple, even if the priests were all dead. The druid and bard would have LOVED the wisdom and fireball necklaces.
I love the new Smite, it's finally worth something and it is by far the most powerfull ability of the Class, and of lot's of classes in that matter. My question is: I feel like dreaming, am I rerading it right?Yes you are. It's very powerful,. In my group's opinion it's too powerful. Even the player of the paladin thinks that the bonus damage AND overcoming DR is too much, especially against double damagers like Outsiders or Undead.
We've houseruled it so it doesn't defeat DR automatically, just counts as Good and Magic for overcoming DR.
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Keep in mind that the ignore DR ability works on as little as DR 5 but as large as DR 20+. So sometimes the ability will add +5 damage and other times it adds +20 or more damage per hit. So against much tougher opponents the ability gains a lot more damage. I don't mind the extra damage, at least its consistent and scales with level. The ignore DR ability instead is weaker against weaker foes and more powerful against more powerful foes. Its an odd and swingy mechanic.
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Things to remember about smite evil:
1) It has the inherent flaw of being a martial attack. The stuff that gave the Paladin a problem before (Prismatic Sphere, Prismatic Wall, Ect. Ect.) still give them problems.
2) Its only useful in certain situations. Obviously Evil is the most encountered type of creature, but there are ways of creating just as horrible a campaign, but with Chaotic Neutral or neutral creatures. You can build encounters that give the other classes a chance to shine.
3) Yes, double damage is good, but its not everything. I had a player use his smite on dretches, rather than on the boss monster, figuring the dretches were the bigger threat. Granted, he didn't know better, but its the same thing. If you use smite on who you THINK is the biggest threat, you might be wrong when another target presents itself. Clever encounter design used once in awhile, will defeat a smite happy paladin. Obviously over use will be seen as DM dickery, but once in awhile is okay.
These are points that are quite valid. I find it funny when people say "I have to rewrite my entire encounter for smite." At most you just have to max out the BBEG's hit points to give him a round or two once the paladin actually gets in there. If a paladin went up to a boss in Rise of the Runelords (and you KNOW who I'm talking about) he'd be meat in full plate within a round or two. Smite or not.
A couple of thoughts that I had regarding the way smite works now.
Depending on how scrupulous the paladin is, if he always checks first, and if the BBEG isn't decked out in his Robes of Absolute Devotion to Evil complete with Lamashtu's autograph, a simple undetectable alignement could be very useful.
Also, for anyone with Exemplars of Evil from 3.5, there is a feat that allows a character with smite to smite anyone in his way once per day even if they aren't his usual smite prey (in part, I'm assuming this was to allow characters like blackguards to still get some use out of their smite against neutral characters, but as written, it allows a paladin to take this ability as well).
Would the above outlined ability cause problems with paladin balance, for those that think this ability is fine for the paladin.
I'm not lining up on either side. I have a gut reaction, but until I see a high level paladin in play, I'd rather not jump on any bandwagon, I just had some thoughts about some situations that might alter the norm established by the new smite.
A couple of thoughts that I had regarding the way smite works now.
Depending on how scrupulous the paladin is, if he always checks first, and if the BBEG isn't decked out in his Robes of Absolute Devotion to Evil complete with Lamashtu's autograph, a simple undetectable alignement could be very useful.
Also, for anyone with Exemplars of Evil from 3.5, there is a feat that allows a character with smite to smite anyone in his way once per day even if they aren't his usual smite prey (in part, I'm assuming this was to allow characters like blackguards to still get some use out of their smite against neutral characters, but as written, it allows a paladin to take this ability as well).
Would the above outlined ability cause problems with paladin balance, for those that think this ability is fine for the paladin.
I'm not lining up on either side. I have a gut reaction, but until I see a high level paladin in play, I'd rather not jump on any bandwagon, I just had some thoughts about some situations that might alter the norm established by the new smite.
I think allowing the paladin to smite whoever he wants would tempt them to use the smites up before the BBEG.
The ability does do a lot of damage, but unless you sit there and go blow for blow with him they are not too tough to handle.
I'm still perplexed that people run campaigns where so many enemies are evil. Most of the opponents my players face are neutral.
I'm still perplexed that people run campaigns where so many enemies are evil. Most of the opponents my players face are neutral.
Unfortunately the campaign got cut short for game-unrelated reasons, but one of my favorite concepts (and the players were really drawn into it too) was a lawful good nemesis - a gold dragon who had built a red communist state. (I know, second time I've mentioned this in a week... but it really was pretty cool!)
I'm still perplexed that people run campaigns where so many enemies are evil. Most of the opponents my players face are neutral.
I think most neutral people have limits they will go to in order to have their way, while an evil person won't care so much about others so they are easier to use.
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Also, for anyone with Exemplars of Evil from 3.5, there is a feat that allows a character with smite to smite anyone in his way once per day even if they aren't his usual smite prey (in part, I'm assuming this was to allow characters like blackguards to still get some use out of their smite against neutral characters, but as written, it allows a paladin to take this ability as well).
Would the above outlined ability cause problems with paladin balance, for those that think this ability is fine for the paladin.
If it were 'turn your Smite X into Smite Anyone' then yes, I would call that overpowered. However, once per day getting to smite anyone? Nope, that's a good backup in case of some neutral villian. Doesn't affect my view of the PF smite.
We've houseruled it so it doesn't defeat DR automatically, just counts as Good and Magic for overcoming DR.
I assume you're playing lower levels where Aura of Faith doesn't render that useless?
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Posted this in another thread earlier, but it's relevant to the discussion here as well.
I can't help but think that having some hard numbers on exactly how much of a boost Smite really is, over the long run, has got to be useful.
After doing a whooooole lot of math, and some data-scraping from the SRD section on monsters, I have to revise my opinion on Smite. It's powerful, without a doubt, but when I ran the numbers against a regular Fighter, I was very surprised indeed to see just how close they came at every level. I built as close to an ideal damage output fighter and ideal damage output paladin as I could, with full feat progressions, equipment, everything that might affect their damage, and at almost every level the average damage output per round for a full attack or vital strike was within two to four percent.
Against an ideal opponent, the Paladin is doing 30-40% more damage per round, but, based on the proportions of foes in the MM, all that extra smite damage ends up averaging out. (If you're curious, one third of enemies in the MM are Evil, and roughly 1/6th are Undead, Outsiders with the evil subtype, or Evil Dragons.)
I made a quick table showing the damage output for a two weapon Fighter and a two weapon Paladin (both of which MASSIVELY outdamaged the equivalent characters using two-handed weapons). Just for fun, I threw the max DPS line on for a Paladin facing a foe for which they receive double damage on their smite (but please keep in mind the average, that max damage line might look impressive, but it's balanced out by the other 5/6ths of the time, when the Paladin isn't facing their ideal opponent).
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9458/paladinvsfighter.png)
I gave a little giggle for glee around the 13-14 level where the fighter gets t pull ahead enough that the lines aren't over layed as much...
That was mostly the effect of the Fighter getting Greater Weapon Specialization, and being able to pick up Critical Focus a few levels sooner. Once they both had Critical focus, it evened back out.
Posted this in another thread earlier, but it's relevant to the discussion here as well.
I can't help but think that having some hard numbers on exactly how much of a boost Smite really is, over the long run, has got to be useful.After doing a whooooole lot of math, and some data-scraping from the SRD section on monsters, I have to revise my opinion on Smite. It's powerful, without a doubt, but when I ran the numbers against a regular Fighter, I was very surprised indeed to see just how close they came at every level. I built as close to an ideal damage output fighter and ideal damage output paladin as I could, with full feat progressions, equipment, everything that might affect their damage, and at almost every level the average damage output per round for a full attack or vital strike was within two to four percent.
Against an ideal opponent, the Paladin is doing 30-40% more damage per round, but, based on the proportions of foes in the MM, all that extra smite damage ends up averaging out. (If you're curious, one third of enemies in the MM are Evil, and roughly 1/6th are Undead, Outsiders with the evil subtype, or Evil Dragons.)
I made a quick table showing the damage output for a two weapon Fighter and a two weapon Paladin (both of which MASSIVELY outdamaged the equivalent characters using two-handed weapons). Just for fun, I threw the max DPS line on for a Paladin facing a foe for which they receive double damage on their smite (but please keep in mind the average, that max damage line might look impressive, but it's balanced out by the other 5/6ths of the time, when the Paladin isn't facing their ideal opponent).
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9458/paladinvsfighter.png)
Awesome! Quite honestly this should put an end to the debate. The ability is FINE, it does what it is supposed to do.... That is, make a paladin a force against evil, not just a minor inconvenience.
Really good chart there although one Very slight niggle it might have been an idea to add in a line for when a paladin is attacking none evil opponents as well.
This would be a good addition too. I bet that line would be significantly lower. Being as it would amount to 5/6th of the time as compaired to his boost 1/6th (acording to the man who crunched the numbers).
Really good chart there although one Very slight niggle it might have been an idea to add in a line for when a paladin is attacking none evil opponents as well.
Done and Done, had to fool with it a bit to find a layout that was readable, but hopefully this works.
The various paladin damages are the solid sections of blue, and the fighter damage line is the dashed green.
Paladin vs. Fighter, Table 2 (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2320/paladinvsfighter2.png)
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Awesome! Quite honestly this should put an end to the debate. The ability is FINE, it does what it is supposed...Posted this in another thread earlier, but it's relevant to the discussion here as well.
I can't help but think that having some hard numbers on exactly how much of a boost Smite really is, over the long run, has got to be useful.After doing a whooooole lot of math, and some data-scraping from the SRD section on monsters, I have to revise my opinion on Smite. It's powerful, without a doubt, but when I ran the numbers against a regular Fighter, I was very surprised indeed to see just how close they came at every level. I built as close to an ideal damage output fighter and ideal damage output paladin as I could, with full feat progressions, equipment, everything that might affect their damage, and at almost every level the average damage output per round for a full attack or vital strike was within two to four percent.
Against an ideal opponent, the Paladin is doing 30-40% more damage per round, but, based on the proportions of foes in the MM, all that extra smite damage ends up averaging out. (If you're curious, one third of enemies in the MM are Evil, and roughly 1/6th are Undead, Outsiders with the evil subtype, or Evil Dragons.)
I made a quick table showing the damage output for a two weapon Fighter and a two weapon Paladin (both of which MASSIVELY outdamaged the equivalent characters using two-handed weapons). Just for fun, I threw the max DPS line on for a Paladin facing a foe for which they receive double damage on their smite (but please keep in mind the average, that max damage line might look impressive, but it's balanced out by the other 5/6ths of the time, when the Paladin isn't facing their ideal opponent).
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9458/paladinvsfighter.png)
You mean 2/3rds of the time, as only 1 in every 3 monsters is actually evil.
Of those, only 1 in 6 actually give up the double damage.
So 1/18th of the monsters actually worry about a paladin that declares their smite on him.
You mean 2/3rds of the time, as only 1 in every 3 monsters is actually evil.
Of those, only 1 in 6 actually give up the double damage.
So 1/18th of the monsters actually worry about a paladin that declares their smite on him.
Ah no, sorry, I may have worded that badly, I was saying 1/3 of the total list of monsters were evil, and 1/6th of the total list were either Undead, evil Dragons, or Outsiders with the Evil subtype. (So roughly half of all eligible smite targets receive the higher damage values).
Really good chart there although one Very slight niggle it might have been an idea to add in a line for when a paladin is attacking none evil opponents as well.Done and Done, had to fool with it a bit to find a layout that was readable, but hopefully this works.
The various paladin damages are the solid sections of blue, and the fighter damage line is the dashed green.
Paladin vs. Fighter, Table 2 (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2320/paladinvsfighter2.png)
Again, awesome! This is exactly the way the chart should look! Against evil the paladin should be the man. But as you are not always fighting evil he is not quite a "go to" guy.
I am curious what the total average would be.
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Ah no, sorry, I may have worded that badly, I was saying 1/3 of the total list of monsters were evil, and 1/6th of the total list were either Undead, evil Dragons, or Outsiders with the Evil subtype. (So roughly half of all eligible smite targets receive the higher damage values).You mean 2/3rds of the time, as only 1 in every 3 monsters is actually evil.
Of those, only 1 in 6 actually give up the double damage.
So 1/18th of the monsters actually worry about a paladin that declares their smite on him.
Even still, that's a significantly small group there.
And normal smite is not the problem people have.
Again, awesome! This is exactly the way the chart should look! Against evil the paladin should be the man. But as you are not always fighting evil he is not quite a "go to" guy.
I am curious what the total average would be.
Well the total average is included on the chart, it's the middle set, listed as Pal. Avg. There is a caveat here though, that average assumes an average number of encounters per day. For games that have a very large number of fights per day, the paladin will fall behind, as he runs out of uses of Smite evil. For campaigns with fewer fights, but a greater proportion of evil opponents than the average based on the MM, the Paladin will pull ahead. If an entire campaign consisted of nothing but 1-2 encounters per day with evil opponents, the Paladins average damage would fall somewhere between the Smite and Smite+ lines, depending on the proportion of Demons and Dragons and whatnot.
On that note, I found a small typo in the line calculating the Average, so I made a revised version of the chart. It's not a big difference, just a slight bump up at higher levels.
New Table (http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2320/paladinvsfighter2.png)
Again, awesome! This is exactly the way the chart should look! Against evil the paladin should be the man. But as you are not always fighting evil he is not quite a "go to" guy.
I am curious what the total average would be.
Well the total average is included on the chart, it's the middle set, listed as Pal. Avg.
On that note, I found a small typo in the line calculating the Average, so I made a revised version of the chart. It's not a big difference, just a slight bump up at higher levels.
New Table (http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2320/paladinvsfighter2.png)
so fighter is fighter
paladin is paladin not smitingpal smiting is paladin smiting;and
pal smiting + is smiting against undead etc
what is paladin avg?
what happens to your graph if you include the divine bond on the weapon?
BTW absolutely great work
so fighter is fighter
paladin is paladin not smiting
pal smiting is paladin smiting;and
pal smiting + is smiting against undead etcwhat is paladin avg?
Paladin Average is the amount of DPS the paladin would do over time, if his fights were evenly distributed among all the monsters in the MM.
what happens to your graph if you include the divine bond on the weapon?
Not much, surprisingly. Since I was building the characters for maxed out damage, I was already upping the quality of their weaponry as soon as possible, making the +enhancement from Divine Bond useless. Of the bonus abilities, Holy, Axiomatic, and Flaming Burst could potentially add some damage against certain targets, deciding how many targets the paladin would effect with it in an average day is the tricky part... (Kind of the same reason I didn't try and include Bleeding Critical for the Fighter)
When I think of a good solution though, I'll post an updated version, and the same goes for the Fighter if I see any easy way to refine those totals.
(Also, by the time the Paladin can really start racking up the list of abilities on using their Bond, the total damage per round is so high it's a drop in the bucket. A 20th level paladin, facing a foe that grants them the double damage smite, is dealing an average of 687 damage per full attack, for instance. The extra 8d6 from Holy, even assuming every attack is successful 95% of the time, is still only another 26.6 damage, or about another 3.8% over what they were already dealing.)
BTW absolutely great work
Thanks!
So it is pretty clear from your table: the Palladin IS OVERPOWERED when he is smiting and is slightly UNDERPOWERED when he is not Smiting.
Crystal clear.
So it is pretty clear from your table: the Palladin IS OVERPOWERED when he is smiting and is slightly UNDERPOWERED when he is not Smiting.
Crystal clear.
Heh, sort of, yes, but the big revelations for me were that the average overall damage was so close to a fighter and that even when the paladin is going nuts with a double damage smite, he isn't that overpowered. +30-40% damage over the fighter is nothing to sneeze at, but that's only really shaving off about 1 round in 4 from how long the combat would have taken anyways (And when you're talking about 400+ Damage per round, most fights aren't going to be lasting anywhere near 4 rounds).
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So it is pretty clear from your table: the Palladin IS OVERPOWERED when he is smiting and is slightly UNDERPOWERED when he is not Smiting.
Crystal clear.
So you are suggesting that the very small % of the time when the paladin gets to "do his thing" he is OP...... right...
So when every other class in the game is "doing their thing" I guess they are OP too.
When a Barb is raging, when a fighter is... Uhhh doing everything. When a ranger is going against his favored enemy or in favored terain. When a caster is, well, casting.
Right I see how you view balance.
But over the long course of his career...he is going to average out because the opportunities to smite will be 1/3.So it is pretty clear from your table: the Palladin IS OVERPOWERED when he is smiting and is slightly UNDERPOWERED when he is not Smiting.
Crystal clear.
That's kinda what I was getting at. In my campaign, this is balanced. In other campaigns where every dang thing is evil, I guess it isn't as much.
But over the long course of his career...he is going to average out because the opportunities to smite will be 1/3.
Isn't that what I have said? The fact is that this is still a problem. When the party faces an evil creature that is an Outsider, Undead or Dragon the Palladin changes into a Super Sayan while against everything else he is basicaly a fighter.
So you are suggesting that the very small % of the time when the paladin gets to "do his thing" he is OP...... right...
So when every other class in the game is "doing their thing" I guess they are OP too.
When a Barb is raging, when a fighter is... Uhhh doing everything. When a ranger is going against his favored enemy or in favored terain. When a caster is, well, casting.
Right I see how you view balance.
Yeah, if you make such silly comparisons, than I know where you come from. If you can't see the difference between a smiting Palladin with a Ranger fighting his favored enemy or a Fighter just fighting than you should....oh wait, check the graph to check the difference.
The Pally does 300 damage more in a full attack against an evil outsider/dragon/undead, that is overpowered for me, sorry.
Isn't that what I have said? The fact is that this is still a problem. When the party faces an evil creature that is an Outsider, Undead or Dragon the Palladin changes into a Super Sayan while against everything else he is basicaly a fighter.
But over the long course of his career...he is going to average out because the opportunities to smite will be 1/3.
Again though...
+30-40% damage over the fighter is nothing to sneeze at, but that's only really shaving off about 1 round in 4 from how long the combat would have taken anyways (And when you're talking about 400+ Damage per round, most fights aren't going to be lasting anywhere near 4 rounds).
A great deal of the time Smite Evil isn't even going to matter, the bad guy you were going to kill in 2 or 3 rounds will still be dead in 2 or 3 rounds, he'll just be even more.. eh.. dead. er. Deader.
The Pally does 300 damage more in a full attack against an evil outsider/dragon/undead, that is overpowered for me, sorry.
It's more like 250, actually, and by that point both the Paladin and Fighter are dealing so much damage on a full attack that there is nothing, not the oldest Red Wyrm or most advanced devil, flat nothing that has enough HP to stand toe to toe with them for more than a single round and survive, Smite or not.
EDIT: You know.. that last line didn't sound half as badass until I read it back to myself after posting.
But over the long course of his career...he is going to average out because the opportunities to smite will be 1/3.Isn't that what I have said? The fact is that this is still a problem. When the party faces an evil creature that is an Outsider, Undead or Dragon the Palladin changes into a Super Sayan while against everything else he is basicaly a fighter.
You might want to read my, and others, earlier post on how to handle paladins with dragons and outsiders. I have not had a chance to use undead yet. some are in this very thread. Math alone does not tell the tale.
The Pally does 300 damage more in a full attack against an evil outsider/dragon/undead, that is overpowered for me, sorry.
Seems I'm not the only one to think that... ^^
I do not want to sound like a jerk here, but I might anyways. If a level 20 Paladin makes it unscathed and unnoticed within range of a CR 20 to 23 dragon to do 300 damage in one round, then the problem isn't with the Paladin class, it's with the DMing.