Smite Evil IS EVIL!


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I love the new Smite, it's finally worth something and it is by far the most powerfull ability of the Class, and of lot's of classes in that matter. My question is: I feel like dreaming, am I rerading it right?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Xum wrote:
I love the new Smite, it's finally worth something and it is by far the most powerfull ability of the Class, and of lot's of classes in that matter. My question is: I feel like dreaming, am I rerading it right?

Yes you are. It's very powerful,. In my group's opinion it's too powerful. Even the player of the paladin thinks that the bonus damage AND overcoming DR is too much, especially against double damagers like Outsiders or Undead.

We've houseruled it so it doesn't defeat DR automatically, just counts as Good and Magic for overcoming DR.


Xum wrote:
I love the new Smite, it's finally worth something and it is by far the most powerfull ability of the Class, and of lot's of classes in that matter. My question is: I feel like dreaming, am I rerading it right?

I guess, but I can't say as you did not include your interpretation of the rules. ;-)

I remember someone said during the beta that smite evil is now really SMITE EVIL and no longer "slightly inconvenience evil".

Liberty's Edge

Paul Watson wrote:
Xum wrote:
I love the new Smite, it's finally worth something and it is by far the most powerfull ability of the Class, and of lot's of classes in that matter. My question is: I feel like dreaming, am I rerading it right?

Yes you are. It's very powerful,. In my group's opinion it's too powerful. Even the player of the paladin thinks that the bonus damage AND overcoming DR is too much, especially against double damagers like Outsiders or Undead.

We've houseruled it so it doesn't defeat DR automatically, just counts as Good and Magic for overcoming DR.

considering the paladin is a tool of Good, and smite evil is how said good choses to distil divine wrath and punishment over evil... i would say it covers the Good part, if not the magic

of course, THIS is your game, and if the paladin is happy to have it enrfed, to each its own

Sovereign Court

Tholas wrote:
Xum wrote:
I love the new Smite, it's finally worth something and it is by far the most powerfull ability of the Class, and of lot's of classes in that matter. My question is: I feel like dreaming, am I rerading it right?

I guess, but I can't say as you did not include your interpretation of the rules. ;-)

I remember someone said during the beta that smite evil is now SMITE EVIL and no longer "slightly inconvenience evil".

And now it's not Smite Evil, but Smite I'm waiting till we fight a zombie.

I actually houseruled away the double damage rule, but kept the beating DR rule. I think the double damage vs. types is lame and ranger trodding. and at low levels you'll see players not smiting regular old evil cause their saving it for the double damage evil.


Tholas wrote:
Xum wrote:
I love the new Smite, it's finally worth something and it is by far the most powerfull ability of the Class, and of lot's of classes in that matter. My question is: I feel like dreaming, am I rerading it right?

I guess, but I can't say as you did not include your interpretation of the rules. ;-)

I remember someone said during the beta that smite evil is now really SMITE EVIL and no longer "slightly inconvenience evil".

I like the Bonus, the DR thing and all that... What makes it REALLY powefull is the duration... that's the perk, any thoughts?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Montalve wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Xum wrote:
I love the new Smite, it's finally worth something and it is by far the most powerfull ability of the Class, and of lot's of classes in that matter. My question is: I feel like dreaming, am I rerading it right?

Yes you are. It's very powerful,. In my group's opinion it's too powerful. Even the player of the paladin thinks that the bonus damage AND overcoming DR is too much, especially against double damagers like Outsiders or Undead.

We've houseruled it so it doesn't defeat DR automatically, just counts as Good and Magic for overcoming DR.

considering the paladin is a tool of Good, and smite evil is how said good choses to distil divine wrath and punishment over evil... i would say it covers the Good part, if not the magic

of course, THIS is your game, and if the paladin is happy to have it enrfed, to each its own

We're playing Curse of the Crimson Throne. Having him able to do +26 damage AND ignore the massive DR

Spoiler:
20/Vorpal on the Demilich
is too much. That would turn a fearsome, party killing monster into a two round at best encounter.

I think it's not a 2 round fight, but still...

What about the time it lasts? Thoughts?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Xum wrote:

I think it's not a 2 round fight, but still...

What about the time it lasts? Thoughts?

Spoiler:
It's got under 70 hit points. He has three attacks. It's AC is not great. It could easily go down in one round

Paul Watson wrote:
Xum wrote:

I think it's not a 2 round fight, but still...

What about the time it lasts? Thoughts?

** spoiler omitted **

I don't know how to make that Spoiler thingy, but this number is just plain WRONG dude, WRONG! I feel your pain...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Xum wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Xum wrote:

I think it's not a 2 round fight, but still...

What about the time it lasts? Thoughts?

** spoiler omitted **
I don't know how to make that Spoiler thingy, but this number is just plain WRONG dude, WRONG! I feel your pain...

That's why I changed it as I did. With the DR active, the fight is tough, but he's still doing 6+weapon (or probably Lay on Hands). This is still very good damage all things considered, but it means the enemy is still likely to survive long enough to really hurt the party, unless they plan for it properly. Which is how it should be.


Don't know man, I like it as it is, normally powerfull creatures have LOT's of hit points, like the dragon for instance. And the evil guys normally have a DR that would be ignored anyhow.

The main problem it could generate is the time frame, a 20th level guy, doing 4 attacks with a +40 damage bonus without DR vs an Evil dragon or lich would be a REAL pain after all +160 damage in one round is REALLY fearsome, to anyone. But then again those guys would have abilities that could render anyone dead or out of combat at a whim, different from the paladin that would have to use Smite.

Liberty's Edge

Paul Watson wrote:
We're playing Curse of the Crimson Throne. Having him able to do +26 damage AND ignore the massive DR ** spoiler omitted ** is too much. That would turn a fearsome, party killing monster into a two round at best encounter.

maybe... but...

Spoiler:
what does the demilich does standing where the paladin can hit it instead of using its magic to move away...

besides it can only be done a few times... but yes.. I can understand that kind of battle can be quite anticlimatic

but partially i am not sure its that bad... for example...

Spoiler:
i haven't arrived that part but I am sure the damn thing well used is as much party killer as Xanesha

Liberty's Edge

Xum wrote:

Don't know man, I like it as it is, normally powerfull creatures have LOT's of hit points, like the dragon for instance. And the evil guys normally have a DR that would be ignored anyhow.

The main problem it could generate is the time frame, a 20th level guy, doing 4 attacks with a +40 damage bonus without DR vs an Evil dragon or lich would be a REAL pain after all +160 damage in one round is REALLY fearsome, to anyone. But then again those guys would have abilities that could render anyone dead or out of combat at a whim, different from the paladin that would have to use Smite.

indeed

like breath fire into their enemies, uses ares spells, fly away of reach, swallow whole...

besides... there are always legends of powerful heroes ebsting the great beast and monsters by themselves... this would be a clasic like Sigfried killing the dragon... you remember? his porblem was not to be killed BY the dragon.. but drowning in his blood


Montalve wrote:
Xum wrote:

Don't know man, I like it as it is, normally powerfull creatures have LOT's of hit points, like the dragon for instance. And the evil guys normally have a DR that would be ignored anyhow.

The main problem it could generate is the time frame, a 20th level guy, doing 4 attacks with a +40 damage bonus without DR vs an Evil dragon or lich would be a REAL pain after all +160 damage in one round is REALLY fearsome, to anyone. But then again those guys would have abilities that could render anyone dead or out of combat at a whim, different from the paladin that would have to use Smite.

indeed

like breath fire into their enemies, uses ares spells, fly away of reach, swallow whole...

besides... there are always legends of powerful heroes ebsting the great beast and monsters by themselves... this would be a clasic like Sigfried killing the dragon... you remember? his porblem was not to be killed BY the dragon.. but drowning in his blood

I am with you there. But I gotta say, I don't think ANY evil creature can go toe-to-toe with a paladin anymore, in high levels I mean.


Paul, that may well be an edge case. That is a particularly exotic DR. This is probably more a flaw in the AP than the Paladin. It seems to me that a high DR bypassed by something the party is unlikely/unable to have was used for thematic purposes to make the creature seem extremely powerful then low HP were given to keep it from being a certain party wipe. High exotic DR over low HP to create a tough opponent is thematically interesting, but falls apart mechanically if the party can overcome the DR.

Would you still feel the Paladin ability to overcome DR is overpowered if the DR had been /magic which the party could easily overcome otherwise?

One character has the ability to bypass an opponent's DR, not the whole party. Paladins also only get a limited number of uses of this ability per day. Doesn't sound particularly unbalanced to me, although I can see where a player saving their smite for maximum effectiveness situations could tip the scales but that gets into the realm of metagaming.


Paul Watson wrote:


We're playing Curse of the Crimson Throne. Having him able to do +26 damage AND ignore the massive DR ** spoiler omitted ** is too much. That would turn a fearsome, party killing monster into a two round at best encounter.

DUDE! You nerfed your own lich. He should have had 10d8 + 50 hit points (from charisma). That should be an extra 30 hit points.

Grand Lodge

Keep in mind that the lich you are referring to was designed with the 3.5 rules in mind. At that time this Smite didn't exist. While Pathfinder is backward compatible that doesn't mean you won't have to make some adaptions for the new rules. Granted, I probably would have overlooked the HP issue and DR issue. But knowing is half the battle. :)


Smite is great now and I'm glad it got buffed, but it probably got buffed too much for my campaigns. I'm taking away the DR and the double damage. I'd leave them in if there was some kind of damage cap, but there isn't.


Freesword wrote:

Paul, that may well be an edge case. That is a particularly exotic DR. This is probably more a flaw in the AP than the Paladin. It seems to me that a high DR bypassed by something the party is unlikely/unable to have was used for thematic purposes to make the creature seem extremely powerful then low HP were given to keep it from being a certain party wipe. High exotic DR over low HP to create a tough opponent is thematically interesting, but falls apart mechanically if the party can overcome the DR.

Would you still feel the Paladin ability to overcome DR is overpowered if the DR had been /magic which the party could easily overcome otherwise?

One character has the ability to bypass an opponent's DR, not the whole party. Paladins also only get a limited number of uses of this ability per day. Doesn't sound particularly unbalanced to me, although I can see where a player saving their smite for maximum effectiveness situations could tip the scales but that gets into the realm of metagaming.

The uses per day are pretty much irrelevant now, since it lasts until the opponent dies... or am I reading it wrong? Although I did read it tons of times to be sure.


Xum wrote:


The uses per day are pretty much irrelevant now, since it lasts until the opponent dies... or am I reading it wrong? Although I did read it tons of times to be sure.

I wouldn't say "irrelevant". True, it lasts until the opponent dies, but 1 opponent = 1 use. One cannot* use it on every opponent. Yes, it is powerful, but it is also supposed to be a "wrath of an angry deity" kind of thing and is the Paladin's signature ability.

* provided number of opponents encountered is greater than number of uses per day

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

To be honest, I only want my rule to affect the corner cases. I'll probably change it to allow anything overcome by a +5 weapon to be ignored. That would ignore DR magic, anathema materials, and all alignments. In the MM that leaves a handful of creatures. These include the Mummy (DR5/-) and the Tarrasque (DR15/EPIC!) and a small number of creatures that have damage type related DR such as Skeletons or Zombies. I think those DRs should stay. The reason is the Paladin has to be cautious of something, even when he's in the avenging hand of God mode. The vast majority of things he'll still blow through like wet cardboard, but not everything. But, as always, YMMV.


Paul Watson wrote:
To be honest, I only want my rule to affect the corner cases. In the MM that leaves a handful of creatures. These include the Tarrasque (DR15/EPIC!)

Whew!

Dark Archive

The Tarrasque isn't evil. A least that's the case in 3.5.
Even a 20th level paladin is no match for the tarrasque which would be easily capable of dealing more than 60 points of damage per round to the paladin, killing him in the long term, without being seriously threatend by the paladin's offensive capabilities.
Fighter, on the other hand, would fair a lot better, since the greater penetrating strike feat would allow them to treat the tarrasque's DR as 5/epic.

Liberty's Edge

Xum wrote:
I am with you there. But I gotta say, I don't think ANY evil creature can go toe-to-toe with a paladin anymore, in high levels I mean.

i am not so sure

many of those make abusive damage... the only reason the paladin has a real easy way is ebcause he go with a team, an enemy of his level will make the paladin sweet... a couple of bad roles and he might be the one dead...

again, it all depends on tactics... mosnters must ebe intelligent... you don't send a caster to fight hand and hand, and that is why i don't like some of the spells on Pathfidner... diluted as they are some would not offer te changes they did...

a decent spellcaster for example would have a contingency with teleport ready for the time when he goes belw half his HPs... or has a lot of spells to bring down damage...

melee mosnters doe multiple damage, with lots of options... and damage... those mosnters are made to combat a party... meaaning 1 palading recieving ALL the damege would be receiving LOTS of damage...

it all depends on how its roll

play the monsters as simple creatures, not using all their powers or advantages or not using advanced plans... they are going to die...

i tried it the last game...

Spoiler:
it was the last battle against Nualia... she had the the trap working so the barbarian and the sorcerer got catch on it... before appearing she used negative channeling from the door where she was hiding, so they were pretty hurt, the sorcerer was clinging to the hole and with 1 hp left... when nualia and her dog apeared the do hrut the barbarian and the barbarina kileld ti throwing it agaisnt the tramp (critical.. seroisuly hurt fell into the hole and the sorcerer already up used "close" in the trap

Nualia attacked once and left the barbarian baddly hurt... he took a potion so Nualia got an AoO hiting him again... leaving him in 3 hps...

from beyond the tramp one of the 2 paladins (the other coldn't arrive to the game) jumped, failed, was hit, fell on the dog with smit evil... dog was dead...

cleric keep healing people but possitive channeling was over and needed toc ros... that would have notbe good for her... she had very bad dexterity or reflex...

so in the end the gnome bard used grease on the flor below Nualia on her enxt movement she got a 1 in the dice and falled to the ground... in that round sorceress and barbarian attacked... 1 using the wand of shocking grasp, the ther using what he had left of Rage toget a free critical... between the 2 of them left her in 2 hps, her but in the ground... and no way of saving her ass... her closest enemies were almost as close to death to her... so I let her surrender so she could get them into a trap...

she used her advantages, planned correctly, i knew that in 1 round the players could kill her... so she used the terrain to ehr advantag, didn't worked... but shiit happens :P

Dark Archive

Have anyone noticed that smite good works in a similar way?

Dark Archive

Halfling Paladin of Erastil
Halfling
25 Point Buy: Str 12(10), Dex 16 (18), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14 (16)
Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Deadly Aim
5: Rapidshot
7: Manyshot
9: Precise Shot

The abiity bonuses on level 4 and 8 both go into dexterity

On level 9
Ranged +1 composite longbow +12/+12/+7 (1d6+7), the first attack deals double damage
AC 21, touch 16, flat footed 16 (Mithral Shirt + Buckler)
Saves Fortitude +12 Reflex +12 Will +9
hp 76

Let's say he uses his bonded weapon ability to grant his bow the holy enhancement
Ranged +1 composite longbow +12/+12/+7 (1d6+7 plus 2d6 against evil), the first attack deals double damage.

Let's say the group encounters a juvenile red dragon (CR 10), with smite evil, the paladin has the following attack against the dragon:
Ranged +1 composite longbow +18/+18/+13 (3d6+19), with the first attack dealing double damage. He doesn't use Deadly Aim, since the damage bonus is negligible with all the smite damage.

The dragon has an AC of 24, so the first two attacks have a chance of success of 75%, the last one has one of 50%. The first attack deals an average damage of 59, the second and third one still have an average damage of 29.5.
So, his average damage per round should be 59*0.75+29.5*0.75+29.5*0.5=~80.
If the dragon were within 30 feet of the paladin, he'd deal about 90 damage per round.

A juvenile red dragon has total hit points of 168, so in one round, the paladin would rob the dragon of nearly half it's hp.
With his rather good reflex save, the paladin would only take an average damage of 21 from the dragon's breath attack, certainly not enough to kill him.
He could than start the next round with healing himself of 4d6 points of damage as a swift action and continue with full attacks on the dragon.
All of this seems quite powerful. Dragons are among the strongest monsters in their CR range, so defeating one that easily is certainly impressive. But it should also be noted, that the paladin only gets to use it against evil foes.
Take this big cat companion of a 9th level druid for example:

Cat, Big (lion, tiger)
N Large animal
Init +4; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +7
DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 12, flat-footed 21
(-1 size, +3 Dex, +6 armor, +9 natural)
hp 68 (8d8+32)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +4
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft. in mwk breastplate barding, base moverment 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +11 (1d6+12) and
Melee bite +11 (1d8+12)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (2 claws +11, 1d6+12)
STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +15; CMD 29
Feats Armor Proficiency (light), Armor Proficiency (medium), Power Attack*, Toughness
Skills Acrobatics +7, Perception +7, Stealth +3
SQ evasion, devotion
Gear mwk breastplate barding

It's quite strong and smite evil won't work against it. So the paladin would have a hard time fighting against such an opponent (which also comes with a free druid).

The paladins smite evil is fine. It's powerful against certain opponents but useless against many others (among them elder elementals, proteans or the tarrasque). Being neutral doesn't stop people from trying to kill adventurers.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Xum wrote:
I am with you there. But I gotta say, I don't think ANY evil creature can go toe-to-toe with a paladin anymore, in high levels I mean.

That's actually my issue with the redone ability. I'll have to see it in play (and I will, since I'm in part 4 of Curse of the Crimson Throne right now), but I suspect paladin smite is going to wind up getting house-ruled to something less devastating. Limited per day or not, I'd rather it didn't make ranger favored enemies look like a joke.

Right now the leading contender for a change is making it apply to the first hit in a round only. And probably taking away party smite. But I will try it as written first, and for more than one fight.


Jadeite wrote:
It's quite strong and smite evil won't work against it. So the paladin would have a hard time fighting against such an opponent (which also comes with a free druid)

Made my Day *g*

It`s really frightening what a paladin can do, but it`s just a case to case basis.

And that companion is "permanent", wich makes a druid somehow even more potent than 3.xx.

@ Jadeite - greetings from B! (here´s Voice)


Well the philosophy as I understand it behind the Paladin is your Knight in Shining Armor going to slay the evil dragon. The paladin in all editions is supposed to be the epitome of goodness and purity, he is like salt on an open wound to the evil monsters. The forces of darkness despise him and will try with any means to corrupt or destroy them. Im glad the power got boosted up, because now a paladin can stand head to toe with a dragon hypothetically speaking. Remember one thing the said foes the paladin will be fighting will rarely go head on with him. They will use every slime dirty trick in the book to kill him. In addition dragon fighting is not as easy as it looks. The dragon will take every advantage the terrain has to offer, use its deadly spell, and of course breath weapon. In addition the dragon will try to stay airborne as much as possible.


I hate when people use role play elements to justify overpowered abilities.

--> The fact that paladins are meant to kill evil is no excuse to make him overpower.

"Evil Dragons deserve a chance, please nerf Smith Evil"


Honestly I rather like the smite evil as it is, my one complaint is that it favors piling on attacks per turn in any way possible.

My solution (I intend to playtest the original before applying this solution) is to use the Power Attack bonus damage numbers at the same levels. So at the point Power Attack would cost -2 and give +2 / 4 / 6, the smite evil gives +cha and +2 / 4 / 6 damage, depending on the weapon type used.

In the end the two handed weapons (lance, greatsword, Guisarme... etc) deal close to full original smite damage (+18 damage), while multiple weapon fighting drops the smite value. (this is of course, assuming the paladin isn't using Armor Spikes or unarmed strikes or something, but that is pretty heavily against the Paladin theme and alot of DM's find that kind of 2wf dirty anyway.)


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pontoark wrote:

I hate when people use role play elements to justify overpowered abilities.

--> The fact that paladins are meant to kill evil is no excuse to make him overpower.

"Evil Dragons deserve a chance, please nerf Smith Evil"

Evil Dragon has many many chances....


I have to see the new and improved smite in action, but I think it's fine. You don't get to use it all day, and only against a single opponent at a time. It has to be an evil enemy to boot, and sometimes, something just wants to eat you because it's hungry.

Paul Watson wrote:


We're playing Curse of the Crimson Throne. Having him able to do +26 damage AND ignore the massive DR ** spoiler omitted ** is too much. That would turn a fearsome, party killing monster into a two round at best encounter.

Any party that has to fight that one longer than a round or two is screwed. There's non-trivial saving throws for lethal attacks flying left and right, and though it has few hit points (though with Pathfinder rules, it's not quite as bad: 10d12 turn into 10d8 +50, which translates into 95 hp), it's really hard to even scratch it if you don't happen to be a smiting paladin.

That paladin will find itself the centre of attention, and that's not a good thing in this fight: Even if he makes all his saves against the critter's signature ability, he'll be dead after 5 rounds because all his life energy will be gone. And his ability to hurt the critter will rapidly decrease as well.

I also want to point out that the paladin might not get more than one round worth of actions, anyway, since after that, it will be easy for this flying enemy to get out of reach.

I'd say that if they don't have a paladin, chances are this enemy will annihilate them. Let's hope for them that they have the knowledge and means to achieve their goal without fighting him.

Sovereign Court

Well the only Pathfinder Dragon we have to compare with is the Crag Linnorm in the preview bestiary... maybe running a combat simulation against it with a level appropriate Party including the Paladin will clear things up?

Not a great number guy, so I'll leave that to the Math Wizards...

--Vrock that Kick!


Thats not true, simply look @ Dragons Revisited.

There are some nice examples.

I generally use the Blackdragon Seryzilian because he`s exactly CR 20.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Alistair wrote:

Thats not true, simply look @ Dragons Revisited.

There are some nice examples.

I generally use the Blackdragon Seryzilian because he`s exactly CR 20.

But he's not under the PFRPG rules. Dragons Revisited is an OGL 3.5 product.


Oh,then please excuse me, my fault *self-facepalm*

argh just read "Pathfinder Chronicles" ...


I have to say that though the Smite evil power is definitely extremely powerful, I don't feel like it is overpowered. Now I don't feel bad about keeping a stricter eye on the paladin is acting (honorable and so on) as this extra power is balanced by a rigorous code. In early iterations the paladin felt weak compared to the code he was to follow and I tended to be a touch more lenient. Not any more though, and I don't feel bad about doing it as the paladin gains some real power for following such a code. (And mind you Paladin has always been my preferred class to play and have always strive to keep within code without being foolish...one would thing a paladin would be wise rather than foolhardy, that's the rogues territory. Now when playing I feel that my strict adherence to this code has REAL payoff.)

Plus now it gives villains a reason to try to corrupt a paladin, if just to weaken him enough to then take him down...which creates a whole story in and of itself.

So yes it is damn powerful, but such is the power of absolute dedication to good.


Quote:
I am with you there. But I gotta say, I don't think ANY evil creature can go toe-to-toe with a paladin anymore, in high levels I mean.

But isn't that supposed to be the MO of a Paladin?


Coming in late here to the discussion, but as an alternative is to allow the normal Smite Evil the ability to Crit evil creatures listed in the description (Outsiders with the evil subtype, Undead, Evil dragons) instead of the 2 points per level.

Since "rider effects" are not multiplied by crit damage.

Dark Archive

Pathos wrote:

Coming in late here to the discussion, but as an alternative is to allow the normal Smite Evil the ability to Crit evil creatures listed in the description (Outsiders with the evil subtype, Undead, Evil dragons) instead of the 2 points per level.

Since "rider effects" are not multiplied by crit damage.

Bonus dice aren't multiplied on a critical hit. Any other bonus damage is.

Sovereign Court

Really I think if you just get rid of the double damage vs. certain types the power is good but when you usually only have 1-2 a day, more in higher level powers but most games I play in never make it past level 12. and the smite evil with it's DR breaking and it's +1 damage per level is actually a good ability. Even at higher levels you only ever get 7 per day, that's 7 enemies a day. Make sure that high level parties like that fight about twice that number in evil baddies and the power quickly starts to seem balanced for its power. The problem seriously IMO lies in the double damage because paladins will a) not use it in any fight they aren't fighting something of that type, but think they might later. and b) make any fight with those types trivial. On top of making any ranger who happened to choose those creature types feel like a complete tool.

Not to mention the change in the nature of a paladin that giving double damage vs. certain creature types gives. No I'm not a crusader against evil. I'm a hunter of undead/demons/dragons. I tried and tried to get them to drop that portion of the ability, but in the end they went with it. So now if paladins come to my table, they'll know from the start that they have to ignore that ability. Which sucks cause I'm not a fan of houseruling out class powers. But I just revile this one that much.


lastknightleft wrote:

Really I think if you just get rid of the double damage vs. certain types the power is good but when you usually only have 1-2 a day, more in higher level powers but most games I play in never make it past level 12. and the smite evil with it's DR breaking and it's +1 damage per level is actually a good ability. Even at higher levels you only ever get 7 per day, that's 7 enemies a day. Make sure that high level parties like that fight about twice that number in evil baddies and the power quickly starts to seem balanced for its power. The problem seriously IMO lies in the double damage because paladins will a) not use it in any fight they aren't fighting something of that type, but think they might later. and b) make any fight with those types trivial. On top of making any ranger who happened to choose those creature types feel like a complete tool.

Not to mention the change in the nature of a paladin that giving double damage vs. certain creature types gives. No I'm not a crusader against evil. I'm a hunter of undead/demons/dragons. I tried and tried to get them to drop that portion of the ability, but in the end they went with it. So now if paladins come to my table, they'll know from the start that they have to ignore that ability. Which sucks cause I'm not a fan of houseruling out class powers. But I just revile this one that much.

Well actually undead/chromatic dragons/Evil outsiders are at the top of the pyramid of evil. The Evil Outsiders and The Undead are the Dmned there is no redemption for them so it is natural for the paladin to go after these monsters.

Besides how often are such creatures fought in battle. Take that into consideration.


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Having looked at this and talked it over with my gaming group, the following observations came to all of us:

1) Paladin Smite vs. Ranger Favored Enemy: All parties agreed that while the paladin's smite will hit harder, it's limited by the number of uses per day. The Ranger's bonus will work all day, every day, on every member of the chosen class without limit, which balances out the increased damage. Additionally, the other uses for the favored bonus the ranger gains further balance things.

2) Number of Smite-Affecting Attacks/Round: Although not explicitly stated, we all agreed that the designer's intent was obviously to have smite only function in conjunction with a single attack within a single round, either as part of a full attack sequence (we assume the first hit) or as an attack of opportunity (but not both). The amount of damage dealt otherwise is so unbalancing that it is inconceivable to have been the designer's plan.

3) Smite at Range: Again, although not explicitly stated, we agreed that, as was mentioned above in the halfling paladin post, that the designer's intent was for smite to function for both melee and missile attacks. (With the caveat that it only affected a single attack per round.)

Sovereign Court

Frostflame wrote:


Besides how often are such creatures fought in battle. Take that into consideration.

Well going off of Paizo APs and Modules that I own, fairly damned often. And I agree that it makes sense that the paladin fight them. What I don't agree on is that he has some benefit to fighting them that he doesn't get when fighting other types of evil. My opinion obviously, but I don't consider an evil cleric wanting to sacrifice the world to rovugug somehow less worthy of smite than a zombie, yet speaking mechanically, if I was fighting said cleric and wasn't sure if I was done for the day I wouldn't smite him because I'd want to save it for one of those creature types. Unless I was sure he was the big bad, I wouldn't want to use one of my very limited smites on him even if he is a pretty bad ass character, and that's what bothers me because I know i have players who think the same way as I do, and when a paladin comes to the table that's what I know I'm going to be dealing with. I don't like mechanically encouraging a paladin to only smite certain types of evil. Especially when combined with the limited # of smites they get.

Sovereign Court

Kharis2000 wrote:


2) Number of Smite-Affecting Attacks/Round: Although not explicitly stated, we all agreed that the designer's intent was obviously to have smite only function in conjunction with a single attack within a single round, either as part of a full attack sequence (we assume the first hit) or as an attack of opportunity (but not both). The amount of damage dealt otherwise is so unbalancing that it is inconceivable to have been the designer's plan.

Having been through the 100 page paladin thread in the design forums being involved from the begining to end, I can tell you that #2 isn't the case. Because that was actually brought up a few times as a solution to prevent encouraging TWF paladins as the only paladin build when multiple rounds came into effect for smite, and if it was the intention it would have been easily added, however as often as it was brought up, it wasn't incorporated, meaning that the intent really is for it to last for every attack in the round (like sneak attack which is in the same boat as far as damage output is concerned which is another reason why I don't agree that the beating DR is unbalanced)

as for #1 I agree that it seems balanced in that perspective, however, wait till you have a paladin and a ranger in your party and the paladin whomps the big bad that you both had as a favored enemy type and it'll seem a lot less fun for the ranger then. Now if you are consitently facing swarms of baddies, and I have had games like that, I can actually agree that it's more balanced. But I've played in a lot of games that the typical # of monsters in a fight is 1-4 with only 1-4 fights a day. and in those scenarios the paladin starts looking a lot more desirable.

And as for #3 oh yeah I agree that the intent was to have smite work at range.


lastknightleft wrote:
Frostflame wrote:


Besides how often are such creatures fought in battle. Take that into consideration.
Well going off of Paizo APs and Modules that I own, fairly damned often. And I agree that it makes sense that the paladin fight them. What I don't agree on is that he has some benefit to fighting them that he doesn't get when fighting other types of evil. My opinion obviously, but I don't consider an evil cleric wanting to sacrifice the world to rovugug somehow less worthy of smite than a zombie, yet speaking mechanically, if I was fighting said cleric and wasn't sure if I was done for the day I wouldn't smite him because I'd want to save it for one of those creature types. Unless I was sure he was the big bad, I wouldn't want to use one of my very limited smites on him even if he is a pretty bad ass character, and that's what bothers me because I know i have players who think the same way as I do, and when a paladin comes to the table that's what I know I'm going to be dealing with. I don't like mechanically encouraging a paladin to only smite certain types of evil. Especially when combined with the limited # of smites they get.

I can understand the concern here. However you as Dm can have a trick or two up your sleeve regarding his code and have him follow accordignly. There is no need to nerf(I hate this word) his smite power. He should also use his wisdom when and when not to use it. Remember wisdom is one of the key ability scores of a paladin. The paladin should not squander his power needlesly but neither hoard it over cautiosly either.

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