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It's more like 250, actually, and by that point both the Paladin and Fighter are dealing so much damage on a full attack that there is nothing, not the oldest Red Wyrm or most advanced devil, flat nothing that has enough HP to stand toe to toe with them for more than a single round and survive, Smite or not.
Hehe you might be right here. But wait! A new monster manual is being released, maybe the monsters got some hp boost! I think they did!!
I do not want to sound like a jerk here, but I might anyways. If a level 20 Paladin makes it unscathed and unnoticed within range of a CR 20 to 23 dragon to do 300 damage in one round, then the problem isn't with the Paladin class, it's with the DMing.
+1. I am not the greatest DM, but I am qualified to teach DM 101, and if the above situation happens, barring strange circumstances, I will be giving free lessons as requested. Hitting every attack against the dragon is also a feat in itself.
Most dragons with a CR of 14 or higher have more than 250 hp, and the oldest ones have 500-800ish. The dragon is a melee master, and a spellcaster. It should have reach so even if it chose to use only one side of its abilities it should be able to pimp slap the paladin.
I do not want to sound like a jerk here, but I might anyways. If a level 20 Paladin makes it unscathed and unnoticed within range of a CR 20 to 23 dragon to do 300 damage in one round, then the problem isn't with the Paladin class, it's with the DMing.
That's quite possible by going ethereal. Etheralness foils blindsense. Can't be seen or heard. Unless the dragon has an active see invisibility, it's possible. But that's not the point. The paladin will charge like any other melee-characters, and make one attack, with full attack actions in the following rounds.
Most dragons with a CR of 14 or higher have more than 250 hp, and the oldest ones have 500-800ish. The dragon is a melee master, and a spellcaster. It should have reach so even if it chose to use only one side of its abilities it should be able to pimp slap the paladin.
And ? If I make a barbarian rage which gives +20 Str and Con bonuses, +14 Will save bonus, 2 more attacks on full attack and a bunch of other bonuses, it is balanced because the dragon can pimp slap the barbarian ?
I know it is an extreme example, but I don't think this is a way to balance abilities.And it's the same for all characters.
...The same thing over and over and over...
Please stop, you've obviously made up your mind, and seem entirely unwilling to even look at any argument that threatens it. You've been repeating the same basic point over and over ad nauseum for pages, in this thread and in the Paladin balance poll thread. We get it already, at this point you just seem to be trying to troll people.
A dragon, barring a White, is also extremely intelligent and should see a PC, let alone a group of PCs approaching from miles away. Their lair should be blocked from teleportation. They should have traps which reveal the PCs location as well as dispalling any effects. They should have gobs and gobs of minions with a varying array of abilities which can be used to defend them. Moreover, a dragon that level, especially one at endgame which may be the very GGEG of the entire campaign, should probably know the PCs specifically are coming after it and it should know ALL of those PCs' tricks down to the last 1st level buff spell and be ready for them.
A dragon, barring a White, is also extremely intelligent and should see a PC, let alone a group of PCs approaching from miles away. Their lair should be blocked from teleportation. They should have traps which reveal the PCs location as well as *dispalling any effects. They should have gobs and gobs of minions with a varying array of abilities which can be used to defend them. Moreover, a dragon that level, especially one at endgame which may be the very *GGEG of the entire campaign, should probably know the PCs specifically are coming after it and it should know ALL of those PCs' tricks down to the last 1st level buff spell and be ready for them.
Wow. I can spell.
*dispelling
*BBEG
Most dragons with a CR of 14 or higher have more than 250 hp, and the oldest ones have 500-800ish. The dragon is a melee master, and a spellcaster. It should have reach so even if it chose to use only one side of its abilities it should be able to pimp slap the paladin.And ? If I make a barbarian rage which gives +20 Str and Con bonuses, +14 Will save bonus, 2 more attacks on full attack and a bunch of other bonuses, it is balanced because the dragon can pimp slap the barbarian ?
I know it is an extreme example, but I don't think this is a way to balance abilities.
And it's the same for all characters.
You claimed the pally was a threat to BBEG's. I just showed one common used BBEG that it was not a huge threat to. Earlier I used the Pit Fiend. You paladin haters are running out of options.
I do not want to sound like a jerk here, but I might anyways. If a level 20 Paladin makes it unscathed and unnoticed within range of a CR 20 to 23 dragon to do 300 damage in one round, then the problem isn't with the Paladin class, it's with the DMing.That's quite possible by going ethereal. Etheralness foils blindsense. Can't be seen or heard. Unless the dragon has an active see invisibility, it's possible. But that's not the point. The paladin will charge like any other melee-characters, and make one attack, with full attack actions in the following rounds.
The paladin still gets slapped around. You really dont want to be that close to a dragon, at least not one I am running. You give me a situation where a paladin kills a BBEG, and I will tell you how to run the encounter correctly. I am guessing you will go with a melee only BBEG, but if that is the case you can take the paladin out, and sub in any other class, and the party should still win hands down.
Is this even possible.
We are going to start the Council of Thieves AP. Right now I have one player considering a Paladin and another is going to be an Infernal Sorcerer.
Now I'm not sure if my player have thought of this yet but it seems to me that corrupting touch really makes that Paladin Smite evil just that much more evil. Say you bump into an giant spider, the sorcerer uses corrupting touch making it shaken and an evil outsider for the duration. Next the Paladin smites evil on it. Pretty much a dead spider. That just seems so nasty to being 2 damage per level on pretty much anything sorcerer successfully hits with that corrupting touch.
Now imagine a multi-classed infernal sorcerer/Paladin. Sure it would be evil to hit good people with corrupting touch and shady to hit neutral. But hitting evil people that you can already smite and making the be hit as outsiders, now that's nasty.
All assuming this can be done which I see no reason it can't but feel free to point out what I've missed.
It's more like 250, actually, and by that point both the Paladin and Fighter are dealing so much damage on a full attack that there is nothing, not the oldest Red Wyrm or most advanced devil, flat nothing that has enough HP to stand toe to toe with them for more than a single round and survive, Smite or not.
Actually, in the case of a two-weapon paladin, it's more like 280 just from smiting alone and before criticals (which should be easy with feats like Improved Critical and spells like Bless Weapon, even morsoe since they work on undead now).
The chart shows a paladin is slightly underpowered to a fighter whilst not smiting...but only if the paladin fights using the same tactics as the fighter.
Is this even possible.
We are going to start the Council of Thieves AP. Right now I have one player considering a Paladin and another is going to be an Infernal Sorcerer.
Now I'm not sure if my player have thought of this yet but it seems to me that corrupting touch really makes that Paladin Smite evil just that much more evil. Say you bump into an giant spider, the sorcerer uses corrupting touch making it shaken and an evil outsider for the duration. Next the Paladin smites evil on it. Pretty much a dead spider. That just seems so nasty to being 2 damage per level on pretty much anything sorcerer successfully hits with that corrupting touch.
Now imagine a multi-classed infernal sorcerer/Paladin. Sure it would be evil to hit good people with corrupting touch and shady to hit neutral. But hitting evil people that you can already smite and making the be hit as outsiders, now that's nasty.
All assuming this can be done which I see no reason it can't but feel free to point out what I've missed.
Corrupting Touch does not make you into an outsider. You just radiate an evil aura as though you were one. This has no effect on smite.
It's more like 250, actually, and by that point both the Paladin and Fighter are dealing so much damage on a full attack that there is nothing, not the oldest Red Wyrm or most advanced devil, flat nothing that has enough HP to stand toe to toe with them for more than a single round and survive, Smite or not.Actually, in the case of a two-weapon paladin, it's more like 280 just from smiting alone and before criticals (which should be easy with feats like Improved Critical and spells like Bless Weapon, even morsoe since they work on undead now).
The chart shows a paladin is slightly underpowered to a fighter whilst not smiting...but only if the paladin fights using the same tactics as the fighter.
Very true Nero, as soon as my paladin finishes up the mounted combat tree I don't see myself taking fighter feats, I see myself taking extra mercies and maximizing that sweet lay hands ability. possibly some channeling feats.
I made a quick table showing the damage output for a two weapon Fighter and a two weapon Paladin (both of which MASSIVELY outdamaged the equivalent characters using two-handed weapons). Just for fun, I threw the max DPS line on for a Paladin facing a foe for which they receive double damage on their smite (but please keep in mind the average, that max damage line might look impressive, but it's balanced out by the other 5/6ths of the time, when the Paladin isn't facing their ideal opponent).(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9458/paladinvsfighter.png)
Just wanted to say how impressed and grateful I am for your work, BG, which has laid to rest the 'waaaa, paladins are OP, waaa' business around my dinner table. I am curious, though, about the feats that went into the TWF paladin and fighter respectively (both which and when), as well as what weapons they were using, whether they were in on the 'kukri are the new black' line, or something else. Would you mind sharing?
GGEG
Aww, when I read that I thought I just wasn't up on all the slang and was trying to extrapolate an expansion of the acronym! Disappointing to find it was only a typo. ;)
Actually, in the case of a two-weapon paladin, it's more like 280 just from smiting alone and before criticals (which should be easy with feats like Improved Critical and spells like Bless Weapon, even morsoe since they work on undead now).
The chart includes the effects of Improved Critical and Critical Focus for both characters.
It does not include the effects of Bless Weapon, as it would require the Paladin to spend a round pre-casting. It's impossible to determine the average length of each encounter without knowing more about the specific DM, opponents, and group members, so there's no way to accurately reflect the loss of the first round of attacks, as a percentage of total damage. I strongly suspect though that the effects would be minimal, consider the paladin is already confirming crits 95% of the time from around level 11 on. (With a 20% chance of threatening a critical, and a 95% confimation rate, the auto-confirmation from bless weapon is at it's absolute most a 1% bump in total damage)
The chart shows a paladin is slightly underpowered to a fighter whilst not smiting...but only if the paladin fights using the same tactics as the fighter.
Considering approximately two thirds of the Paladin's potential opponents are unsmitable, it all does average out in the end.
If you'd care to suggest some alternative tactics that would result in a greater damage per round, using the material available to me in the PRD, I'll be happy to run the numbers, but from my own testing I can assure you that this is very close to the ideal damage a paladin could deal on a consistent basis. (At least, using strictly the PRD material.)
If you're saying the paladin should be doing something other than maxing out DPS, well, that's fine, but I thought the point of this discussion was to analyze the effect of Smite Evil, specifically, it's effects on DPS.
Just wanted to say how impressed and grateful I am for your work, BG, which has laid to rest the 'waaaa, paladins are OP, waaa' business around my dinner table. I am curious, though, about the feats that went into the TWF paladin and fighter respectively (both which and when), as well as what weapons they were using, whether they were in on the 'kukri are the new black' line, or something else. Would you mind sharing?
I made a quick table showing the damage output for a two weapon Fighter and a two weapon Paladin (both of which MASSIVELY outdamaged the equivalent characters using two-handed weapons). Just for fun, I threw the max DPS line on for a Paladin facing a foe for which they receive double damage on their smite (but please keep in mind the average, that max damage line might look impressive, but it's balanced out by the other 5/6ths of the time, when the Paladin isn't facing their ideal opponent).(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9458/paladinvsfighter.png)
Sure.
Both characters are dual wielding Shortswords, there were slightly better exotic weapons, but the extra feat cost would hinder their progression, so I went with something basic. At level 20, each has a pair of +5 Vicious, Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Thundering Shortswords. Most characters I think would likely scale back slightly on those, spending more money on protective gear, but this was about maximizing DPS for each, so I decided to put a larger chunk of their available gold into their weapons.
For feats the fighters has:
H Two Weapon Fighting
1 Weapon Focus
B Power Attack
2 Double Slice
3 Improved Init
4 Weapon Spec
5 Toughness
6 Imp. Two Weapon Fighting
7 Vital Strike
8 G. Weapon Focus
9 Improved Critical
10 Critical Focus
11 G. Two Weapon Fighting
12 G. Weapon Spec
13 Staggering Critical
14 Imp. Vital Strike
15 Blinding Critical
16 G. Vital Strike
17 Critical Mastery
18 Disruptive
19 Spellbreaker
20 Two Weapon Rend*
The Paladin has:
H Two Weapon Fighting
1 Weapon Focus
3 Power Attack
5 Double Slice
7 Imp. Two Weapon Fighting
9 Improved Critical
11 G. Two Weapon Fighting
13 Critical Focus
15 Staggering Critical
17 Stunning Critical
19 Two Weapon Rend*
*I haven't included the effects of Two Weapon Rend in the chart, as it would have added considerable complications to calculating the total, and provides exactly the same benefit to both characters. Considering their total to hit, it's going to be very, very close to 25 additional damage per round.
I might have increased the fighters total DPS considerably by trading out something like Vital Strike for Leadership, and adding in the benefits of having a companion to buff you, but I didn't want to skew the results, and in most groups the Paladin would have access to similar bonuses from group mates.
Both characters at 20 have a 34 strength, (16 Base, +6 Enhancement, +5 level bumps, +5 Intrinsic, +2 Human Racial). I've seen the argument that a fighter should start with a higher strength, because they don't have to spend stat points on charisma, but it doesn't hold water. With the new effects of Armor training, a fighter is going to want to put an equivalent number of points into Dexterity, evening out the playing field in terms of total Strength.
Very nice stat outputs however what are the two characters overall stats? Also what kind of armour would they be wearing?
Nothing grand, I set back about one third of their total gold for armor and protective equipment (not unreasonable considering the relative costs) but I didn't try and plot out exactly what they would have at each level, since all I really cared about was testing both classes at their absolute most extreme DPS.
If you'd like, I can figure out a nice set of full equipment for them.
The Paladin had a 16 Str (+2 Racial), 13 Dex, 14 Con, 7 Int, 7 Wis, 16 Cha (For a total of 20 points standard point buy)
The Fighter had 16 Str (+2 Racial), 16 Dex, 14 Con, 7 Int, 13 Wis, 7 Cha (For a total of 20 points again)
Very nice stat outputs however what are the two characters overall stats? Also what kind of armour would they be wearing?Nothing grand, I set back about one third of their total gold for armor and protective equipment (not unreasonable considering the relative costs) but I didn't try and plot out exactly what they would have at each level, since all I really cared about was testing both classes at their absolute most extreme DPS.
If you'd like, I can figure out a nice set of full equipment for them.
The Paladin had a 16 Str (+2 Racial), 13 Dex, 14 Con, 7 Int, 7 Wis, 16 Cha (For a total of 20 points standard point buy)
The Fighter had 16 Str (+2 Racial), 16 Dex, 14 Con, 7 Int, 13 Wis, 7 Cha (For a total of 20 points again)
*peer*
The paladin lacks the Dex for TWF, much less its extensions. ;)
Very nice stat outputs however what are the two characters overall stats? Also what kind of armour would they be wearing?Nothing grand, I set back about one third of their total gold for armor and protective equipment (not unreasonable considering the relative costs) but I didn't try and plot out exactly what they would have at each level, since all I really cared about was testing both classes at their absolute most extreme DPS.
If you'd like, I can figure out a nice set of full equipment for them.
The Paladin had a 16 Str (+2 Racial), 13 Dex, 14 Con, 7 Int, 7 Wis, 16 Cha (For a total of 20 points standard point buy)
The Fighter had 16 Str (+2 Racial), 16 Dex, 14 Con, 7 Int, 13 Wis, 7 Cha (For a total of 20 points again)
*peer*
The paladin lacks the Dex for TWF, much less its extensions. ;)
Woops! Crap, missed that. I might have to drop the Paladin's con or Charisma down then to make up the points. Ugh.. ::sigh:: Time to run the numbers again.. ::Breaks out abacus::
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Woops! Crap, missed that. I might have to drop the Paladin's con or Charisma down then to make up the points.Very nice stat outputs however what are the two characters overall stats? Also what kind of armour would they be wearing?Nothing grand, I set back about one third of their total gold for armor and protective equipment (not unreasonable considering the relative costs) but I didn't try and plot out exactly what they would have at each level, since all I really cared about was testing both classes at their absolute most extreme DPS.
If you'd like, I can figure out a nice set of full equipment for them.
The Paladin had a 16 Str (+2 Racial), 13 Dex, 14 Con, 7 Int, 7 Wis, 16 Cha (For a total of 20 points standard point buy)
The Fighter had 16 Str (+2 Racial), 16 Dex, 14 Con, 7 Int, 13 Wis, 7 Cha (For a total of 20 points again)
*peer*
The paladin lacks the Dex for TWF, much less its extensions. ;)
I can see the paladin curve taking a massive drop if you lower charisma, as that's what helps smite be worth a damn.
Also, I'm curious about Double Slice. Does taking it fix the halved offhand benefit from Power Attack as well, in your calculations? I was contemplating house ruling that.
They are level 20. A +6 Dex buffer and +3 Book of Dex take care of the Dex problem. Just ignore it.
==Aelryinth
I can see the paladin curve taking a massive drop if you lower charisma, as that's what helps smite be worth a damn.
Not so much actually, up to level 8 or so it's a nice bump yeah, but once you hit the mid levels the Paladins attacks are so high compared to their opponents AC that the bonus to hit provides no additional damage on most of their attacks.
The major bump in damage is the Paladin's level to damage.
Also, I'm curious about Double Slice. Does taking it fix the halved offhand benefit from Power Attack as well, in your calculations? I was contemplating house ruling that.
Nope, still dealing 1/2 power attack with the off hand, just granting the full Strength mod to the off hand attacks. I thought about making those kinds of changes as well when I first read the Pathfinder rules, but after running some numbers and seeing the unbelievable damage 2wf can potentially deal, I'd be very careful making any changes to those feats that add even more flat bonuses to damage.
They are level 20. A +6 Dex buffer and +3 Book of Dex take care of the Dex problem. Just ignore it.
==Aelryinth
Well, except the build is very tight on feats, and you really can't afford to delay two weapon fighting at all without taking a hit in DPS.
Also, I'm curious about Double Slice. Does taking it fix the halved offhand benefit from Power Attack as well, in your calculations? I was contemplating house ruling that.Nope, still dealing 1/2 power attack with the off hand, just granting the full Strength mod to the off hand attacks. I thought about making those kinds of changes as well when I first read the Pathfinder rules, but after running some numbers and seeing the unbelievable damage 2wf can potentially deal, I'd be very careful making any changes to those feats that add even more flat bonuses to damage.
Indeed, that's very fair.
Very true Nero, as soon as my paladin finishes up the mounted combat tree I don't see myself taking fighter feats, I see myself taking extra mercies and maximizing that sweet lay hands ability. possibly some channeling feats.
It's more like 250, actually, and by that point both the Paladin and Fighter are dealing so much damage on a full attack that there is nothing, not the oldest Red Wyrm or most advanced devil, flat nothing that has enough HP to stand toe to toe with them for more than a single round and survive, Smite or not.Actually, in the case of a two-weapon paladin, it's more like 280 just from smiting alone and before criticals (which should be easy with feats like Improved Critical and spells like Bless Weapon, even morsoe since they work on undead now).
The chart shows a paladin is slightly underpowered to a fighter whilst not smiting...but only if the paladin fights using the same tactics as the fighter.
Those mercies are where the power is that. How can I debilitate my players with status affects if the paladin keeps healing them, so annoying.
Either do it to multiple players at once or be happy that the paladin is going around in combat removing statuses rather than smiting evil ;)
Either do it to multiple players at once or be happy that the paladin is going around in combat removing statuses rather than smiting evil ;)
I don't want him to not have any fun, but making him heal is one way I took him out of combat. The status affected guy is out, and the healer is out. When he gets to attack again the enemy has put some distance in between the himself and the paladin or has another way to negate a full attack.
Edit:attack
Exactly. The point isn't to completely remove the paladin's smite from the table, the point is to make it a tactical choice. He could have chosen to continue smiting the guy that fracked up his party; he decided to help his party mates instead. That's an interesting choice (in the game design sense of the term "interesting choice" which isn't really all that related to the common parlance) and shows that smite evil probably isn't overpowered enough to let the paladin win all on his own.
It seems to me the paladin may be less unbalanced than I had originally thought. Mostly becasue I hadnt really realised how horrendous the fighter had become. I still believe that the ability to step up against the BBEG (note E stands for evil) is a more spotlight/fun grabbing ability than the ability to beat up his N meatshield.
However, the amount of damage each melee class is putting out concerns me more. It seems to me if the premise is that mid level is more fun and high level is problematical then giving melee classes this much extra boost you are bringing the high level problems down a level or three (and making the sweet spot of gaming smaller) rather than extending the fun of mid level gaming. But perhaps that is a thought for another thread.
Brodiggan, I don't suppose you could generate some similar tables for the other primary melee classes? (Barbarian, Ranger-TWF, Monk, Rogue.)
Brodiggan, I don't suppose you could generate some similar tables for the other primary melee classes? (Barbarian, Ranger-TWF, Monk, Rogue.)
Absolutely, work in the morning though, so it will be a bit.
GGEGAww, when I read that I thought I just wasn't up on all the slang and was trying to extrapolate an expansion of the acronym! Disappointing to find it was only a typo. ;)
NICE!
I think we're also missing one very important point of roleplaying involving Liches and big bad Dragons and powerful Demons. When the DM puts themselves in the minds of these opponents, they should really get into the character and feel their hopes and fears and motivations. Now, put yourself in their shoes. You're standing there, being all evil and awesome. You've got your hordes of loyal and nasty followers. You're sitting on a pretty nice horde of treasure. Yeah, that feels good, right? You've also been getting reports of a group of stupid PCs have been assaulting your dungeon. How adorable. They finally burst into your inner sanctum and at the forefront is a PC in shining regalia wielding a glimmering holy glaive.
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"MIGHTY F&#@ IT'S A PALADIN!!!!!! KILL IT! KILL IT!"
Considering approximately two thirds of the Paladin's potential opponents are unsmitable, it all does average out in the end.
False, firstly a large portion of creatures in any monster manual will be evil. In the SRD there are 200 monsters (approx) with an evil alignment listed, 100 Good aligned (approx)and another 210 (approx)neutral. Now, going by that alone means that 2/5s of monstesr (instead of 1/3) will be evil.
This also doesn't take into account that most neutral monsters are actually things like animals, dinosaurs or creatures which aren't likely to just attack the party unless provoked or hungry, and even if they do they aren't exactly going to be using brilliant battle strategies. What's more, if the animal-like creatures are played realisticlly, they shouldn't be too much of a threat, since they will flee when injured unless backed into a corner or otherwise forced to fight.
Also, when throwing NPC's to fight the party, evil PC's are easier to add, since they need less reasons to fight the party. If I throw some partiularly voilent bandits at the PC's, what alignment are they most likely to fit? If someone plots to take over a city and the PC's interfere, is this plotter going to be evil? It's alot easier to justify evil characters as antagonists than it is to justify good or neutral characters - In fact, many of Paizo's own adventure paths include more than their fair share of evil characters.
I've personality played in a Pen in Paper group that's changed players a few times over the years, online games like NWN, PBP games etc One thing they all have in common is that evil foes are more common than any other type. Is that a problem with the plying style of all those people? Really? For actually using evil creatures as antagonists?
I don't like the new smite (which should be pretty obvious), though I'll admit theres plenty of arugments that it's balanced, I just don't think "Evil creatures are uncommon" is a valid one. The only way I say that actually happaning in most games is if the DM specifically makes the game that way, and in that case the DM is altering the game to accomidate a single class.
GGEGAww, when I read that I thought I just wasn't up on all the slang and was trying to extrapolate an expansion of the acronym! Disappointing to find it was only a typo. ;)
NICE!
I think we're also missing one very important point of roleplaying involving Liches and big bad Dragons and powerful Demons. When the DM puts themselves in the minds of these opponents, they should really get into the character and feel their hopes and fears and motivations. Now, put yourself in their shoes. You're standing there, being all evil and awesome. You've got your hordes of loyal and nasty followers. You're sitting on a pretty nice horde of treasure. Yeah, that feels good, right? You've also been getting reports of a group of stupid PCs have been assaulting your dungeon. How adorable. They finally burst into your inner sanctum and at the forefront is a PC in shining regalia wielding a glimmering holy glaive.
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"MIGHTY F&#@ IT'S A PALADIN!!!!!! KILL IT! KILL IT!"
Hahahahahaha! Awesome... and so true!
We've just switched from PF beta to the final core rules. The paladin is now way over-powered for my campaign in which all the major opponents fit into its 'double smite group' (evil dragons, undead and evil outsiders). A paladin may be an average fighter against non-evil creatures, but in high level campaigns the most serious challenges are generally from evil creatures, many of which (conveniently) fit into this uber-smite category. So either smite or double-smite...AND the ability to pass this on to group members for 10 full rounds of smiting frenzy * N players? People are also disregarding the fact that a paladin already has 3 important advantages over a regular fighter: spells, two good saves, rather than 1 and weapon bonding. It is thus unfair to simply look at damage potential when comparing a paladin to a fighter. The ability to bypass any non-epic damage reduction against evil is the final unecessary cherry on the top, when they are already doing insane amounts of damage. Creature DR is usually an imporant part of CR estimates - which is suddenly irrelevant. The arguments that only limited smites per day (7 at high level which is what I'm concerned about!) means this is not that useful...well, I have *never* played in a campaign where we had more than 2-3 >>>major<<< combats in any single game-world day. By major I mean that, not piddling secondary encounters. Now that smite is endless per opponent - and given that most major combats only have one BB(E)G + lesser minion(s), thus requiring only 1 or perhaps 2 smites for each major combat - the 'less useful' argument is just not true. You cannot really allow more serious combats per day since priests/wizards etc need to be allowed to replenish their spells - or ruin their game play experience. I expect that for the run-of-the-mill mostly-evil-opponents type campaign - which appear to be the dominant kind at leats for published modules - , the paladin will be out-damaging the fighter all the time. That must surely be unbalanced?
I'm going to house-rule some changes - and hope that they will release a revision to normalize things. I feel that only allowing a smite to persist for as many *attacks rolls* as the paladin has charisma bonus, would be a step in the right direction, as well as scaling down the damage to +1 /2 levels. A low level, decently specced pally would have at least +3 cha and at higher levels with enhancements and magic, probably +6 if not more. If they can choose which attacks to smite with then they can also go for higher order attacks and probably land all 6 smite attacks ove rteh course of a few rounds. Even with these changes, all the other benefits like overcoming DR, spells, weapon bonding, immunities to X, y and Z and so on still make this class very potent.
I think it's pretty strange when people still say Pallies are overpowered, specially now. Numbers DO NOT lie, this is pure and simple math.
And yes the pally has some nice saves and other nice stuff, but the fighter has 10 more feats armor and weapon bonuses AND some pretty neat fighter only feats.
As far as Evil are the uber vilain, I get that, hell we all do, but I'm pretty sure that there are plenty more stuff to enjoy there. I remember several games that when we faced the evil dude he summoned several non-evil creatures ooohhh that made me mad, and it happens a lot, so, try stuff like that for a change, and trust the Math, again, it does not lie.
I think it's pretty strange when people still say Pallies are overpowered, specially now. Numbers DO NOT lie, this is pure and simple math.
And yes the pally has some nice saves and other nice stuff, but the fighter has 10 more feats armor and weapon bonuses AND some pretty neat fighter only feats.As far as Evil are the uber vilain, I get that, hell we all do, but I'm pretty sure that there are plenty more stuff to enjoy there. I remember several games that when we faced the evil dude he summoned several non-evil creatures ooohhh that made me mad, and it happens a lot, so, try stuff like that for a change, and trust the Math, again, it does not lie.
Also remember now the fighter can overcome most DR's without using any sort of smite, he's just that good. 10/- still thwarts him
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We've just switched from PF beta to the final core rules. The paladin is now way over-powered for my campaign in which all the major opponents fit into its 'double smite group' (evil dragons, undead and evil outsiders).
Well, one quick thing, because it's easy to miss and might be part of the issue, Smite Evil does not do double damage against all evil outsiders (of which there are a ton), it does double damage against Outsiders with the Evil subtype (pretty much just Demons and Devils, along with a few culture specific equivalents like Rakshasa and a spattering of low level types like the Barghest).
A paladin may be an average fighter against non-evil creatures,
Well below average actually, compared to a Fighter.
but in high level campaigns the most serious challenges are generally from evil creatures, many of which (conveniently) fit into this uber-smite category.
Definitely a point to be made that there is a ton of crossover between smitable (or double smitable) creatures, and the group of monsters that tend to be bad guys. On the one hand that is a design issue on the part of the campaign, not necessarily a problem with the paladin as a whole. But on the other hand, it _does_ happen, and in most games the Paladin will have the opportunity to select specifically for the opponents on which Smite will be most effective, possibly ramping up their average damage. I'm not entirely sure how this would effect the overall total average damage a Paladin puts out, but I'll see if I can find a fair way to evaluate it.
So either smite or double-smite...AND the ability to pass this on to group members for 10 full rounds of smiting frenzy * N players?
And this I definitely need to find a way to include, if I don't take into account group buffs I'm just not fairly assessing classes like the Bard and Paladin.
People are also disregarding the fact that a paladin already has 3 important advantages over a regular fighter: spells, two good saves, rather than 1 and weapon bonding.
By the same token, the fighter has a number of advantages over the Paladin. Weapon Training, Armor Training, 10 Extra Feats, Weapon Specialization and Greater Specialization, they may not individually seem like much, but Weapon Training + G. Weapon Focus and G. Weapon Spec is a +6 to hit and +8 to damage on every attack, for example. (Roughly the equivalent of the Warrior's weapon having an extra +5 enhancement and an extra D6 damage when compared to a character with just Weapon Focus.)
It is thus unfair to simply look at damage potential when comparing a paladin to a fighter.
I definitely agree here, so far I've just been looking at the damage totals because that's the topic of debate though. (And because evaluating out of combat abilities is much more subjective, and hard to quantify.)
The ability to bypass any non-epic damage reduction against evil is the final unecessary cherry on the top, when they are already doing insane amounts of damage. Creature DR is usually an imporant part of CR estimates - which is suddenly irrelevant.
Less of an issue than you think, originally I was going to include DR in the totals, but when I started looking at some realistic examples, both characters were almost certain to be able to negate their opponents DR anyways, from the combination of weapon enhancements negating alignment/material requirements, feats like penetrating strike, and easy access to items like Oil of Bless/Align Weapon.
I might try and take a finer grain look at it when I'm working on the damage calculator tonight.
The arguments that only limited smites per day (7 at high level which is what I'm concerned about!) means this is not that useful...well, I have *never* played in a campaign where we had more than 2-3 >>>major<<< combats in any single game-world day.
Well then that might explain part of why the Paladin seems so overpowered in your campaign. I'm willing to bet that casters seem mildly overpowered as well, for some of the same reasons.
By major I mean that, not piddling secondary encounters. Now that smite is endless per opponent - and given that most major combats only have one BB(E)G + lesser minion(s), thus requiring only 1 or perhaps 2 smites for each major combat - the 'less useful' argument is just not true. You cannot really allow more serious combats per day since priests/wizards etc need to be allowed to replenish their spells - or ruin their game play experience.
At the level a Paladin is using 7 Smites a day, most casters had better be able to handle more than 2 fights. They may be annoyed at the change, or unused to using less than their most powerful spells, but we're talking about people with 9th level spells, just accounting for the 5th level spells and up, you're talking about 18-28 spell slots. With the relatively short duration of most high level fights, even casting every single round that's enough for 6-9 fights (possibly minus a bit for buffing, but if they're using all their slots buffing, then they have no room to complain about the rest of their day involving sitting back and using said buffs).
I expect that for the run-of-the-mill mostly-evil-opponents type campaign - which appear to be the dominant kind at leats for published modules - , the paladin will be out-damaging the fighter all the time.
Hardly all the time, a significant percentage of the time, perhaps, and only if they're built specifically for dealing damage (or the fighter is built for something other than damage).
Careful about scaling the paladin back too far on Smite, Smite is, after all, their central damage "trick"
It's what they do. Scale it back too far and you'll severely gimp them in comparison to classes with equally powerful, but less flashy "tricks" like rogues (Sneak attack) and Fighters (Weapon Training + Specialization)
Another point that someone else brings up is that when a feature says it supports allies it does not include the ability user in that group. If the paladin is in a group with a fighter or brbarian neither one of them should be within full attack range of the BBEG until the minions are dead. If you are within full attack range and, not one of the above classes, okay maybe the druid can try his, I would suggest you move away. Being in the BBEG's face is not where you want to be, 90% of the time.
Corrupting Touch does not make you into an outsider. You just radiate an evil aura as though you were one. This has no effect on smite.Is this even possible.
We are going to start the Council of Thieves AP. Right now I have one player considering a Paladin and another is going to be an Infernal Sorcerer.
Now I'm not sure if my player have thought of this yet but it seems to me that corrupting touch really makes that Paladin Smite evil just that much more evil. Say you bump into an giant spider, the sorcerer uses corrupting touch making it shaken and an evil outsider for the duration. Next the Paladin smites evil on it. Pretty much a dead spider. That just seems so nasty to being 2 damage per level on pretty much anything sorcerer successfully hits with that corrupting touch.
Now imagine a multi-classed infernal sorcerer/Paladin. Sure it would be evil to hit good people with corrupting touch and shady to hit neutral. But hitting evil people that you can already smite and making the be hit as outsiders, now that's nasty.
All assuming this can be done which I see no reason it can't but feel free to point out what I've missed.
Too bad, seemed like a good use of the power. At the same maybe too good.
We've just switched from PF beta to the final core rules. The paladin is now way over-powered for my campaign in which all the major opponents fit into its 'double smite group' (evil dragons, undead and evil outsiders). A paladin may be an average fighter against non-evil creatures, but in high level campaigns the most serious challenges are generally from evil creatures, many of which (conveniently) fit into this uber-smite category. So either smite or double-smite...AND the ability to pass this on to group members for 10 full rounds of smiting frenzy * N players? People are also disregarding the fact that a paladin already has 3 important advantages over a regular fighter: spells, two good saves, rather than 1 and weapon bonding. It is thus unfair to simply look at damage potential when comparing a paladin to a fighter. The ability to bypass any non-epic damage reduction against evil is the final unecessary cherry on the top, when they are already doing insane amounts of damage. Creature DR is usually an imporant part of CR estimates - which is suddenly irrelevant. The arguments that only limited smites per day (7 at high level which is what I'm concerned about!) means this is not that useful...well, I have *never* played in a campaign where we had more than 2-3 >>>major<<< combats in any single game-world day. By major I mean that, not piddling secondary encounters. Now that smite is endless per opponent - and given that most major combats only have one BB(E)G + lesser minion(s), thus requiring only 1 or perhaps 2 smites for each major combat - the 'less useful' argument is just not true. You cannot really allow more serious combats per day since priests/wizards etc need to be allowed to replenish their spells - or ruin their game play experience. I expect that for the run-of-the-mill mostly-evil-opponents type campaign - which appear to be the dominant kind at leats for published modules - , the paladin will be out-damaging the fighter all the time. That must surely be unbalanced?
I'm going to house-rule...
It's not unbalanced. The fighter should never be used as the model of balance or every class is broken. A point to remember is that when that pally changes opponents it wants to smite the previous smite is used up whether he killed the original smite target or not. Which BBEG's + minions has the paladin beat down?
The reason I continue to disagree is because the pally in my group tends to find himself bleeding out after smiting someone.
I make mistakes quiet often, and I have to come online to find new things so I am not a great tactician. If I am no better than average I dont see why others are struggling with the paladin.
Brodiggan, I don't suppose you could generate some similar tables for the other primary melee classes? (Barbarian, Ranger-TWF, Monk, Rogue.)Absolutely, work in the morning though, so it will be a bit.
Well, this may take wee bit longer than I anticipated, some of the various Feats and class abilities are going to be a real pain to accurately evaluate. When I've got it done, I'll pop it all up in it's own thread.
I make mistakes quiet often, and I have to come online to find new things so I am not a great tactician. If I am no better than average I dont see why others are struggling with the paladin.
Remember that by definition, 50% are below average. ;)
But, really: a lot of it probably has to do with the individual campaign's flavor. I'm a big fan of building strife from simple cultural conflict which has nothing to do with evil. Territory struggles over important resources, racism beyond anything found on Earth (despite individuals being non-evil), or just the simple fact of being large and carnivorous. A tiger is not evil when it eats a man. Not every troll is either. But it still eats men, so men must retaliate.
So... I don't forsee much issue with paladins. But for someone who's running a game of celestial vs. infernal, they could seem a little bit over the top!
Well, this may take wee bit longer than I anticipated, some of the various Feats and class abilities are going to be a real pain to accurately evaluate. When I've got it done, I'll pop it all up in it's own thread.
One at a time is fine, just compare them each to the fighter. ;)
Maybe do rangers last. Or first to get them out of the way... I just see Favored Enemy being a bigger pain than Smite to evaluate!
That's actually not that bad, since I have the big database of all the mobs from the MM, I can do some fairly decent evaluation of the odds of running into a favored enemy by types.
It's stuff like sneak attacks from flanking that I'm really struggling with, since it's soooooo dependent on DM whim and how the average battle is set up. I've also been trying to think of a way to average in surprise rounds, flat-footedness, and the like, to give feats like Improved Init and Blinding Critical their proper due.