By the way, the injection of "I like my games cinematic" into a "this class is overpowered" debate is hilarious.
"Cinematic" means "the heroes win and look cool doing it!". By definition, cinematic games mean the heroes are overpowered vs the opposition.
Well if you play the game cinematically, where the boss wades into combat against the hero then the paladin might need to be redone, since a full attack on the pit fiend is not a good cinematic end to a fight.
hehehe, that's ok. :)
No, I don't play all cinematically, but quite. The battle would be "foreplayed" [:)] with some dialogue, some ranged spells and if the paladin resist a few of them, then it will come to some physical combat. Which, apropiatelly managed, it should last some good rounds, maybe.
The winner, hope, for the players' sake and the character's soul, is the paladin, but, as I said, It should be tough, yet of an uncertain outcome 'till its end.
Really, how you manage the encounters as a DM, will depend on how you and your friends like to play. I'd never use at-will abilities continuously because I wouldn't find it "right" to do so, it would be boring from my point of view. Playing an strategic fight or a cunning enemy such as a pitfiend doesn't mean using the rules to the fullest, only considering a few rounds in advance or not letting the guard down easily, at least not until the end.
EDIT: My last campaign was quite cinematical, and let me say, in the end, the player's characters "lost". They all loved it, as wierd as it sounds...
I make it tough, without using combos or rare builds (which I seldom allow).
I'd never use at-will abilities continuously because I wouldn't find it "right" to do so, it would be boring from my point of view.
How much intelligence does a Pit Fiend have?
If said pit fiend has it in his power to ensure victory, as well as getting as much time as it desires to toy with its prey, and yet chooses not to, then it's acting more like vermin than an intelligent creature.
If you want to have your monsters pull their punches and help the PCs out a little that's fine, but to then use that as a basis for arguing that something is overpowered seems a little odd.
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How much intelligence does a Pit Fiend have?
26 int, 26 wis, for the record. That's smarter than a lot of archmages and wiser than a lot of high priests (and smarter than almost all high priests and wiser than almost all archmages).
Ahem. I thought I ought to point out that the 20th level paladin is Immune to Power Word Stun. Not to say the Pit Fiend can't kill him, but...
Ahem. I thought I ought to point out that the 20th level paladin is Immune to Power Word Stun.
Source?
Ahem. I thought I ought to point out that the 20th level paladin is Immune to Power Word Stun. Not to say the Pit Fiend can't kill him, but...
I checked the PRD and the book. I did not see it. Even without stun it would not stop the flying issue, but we will discuss that when you show us where that stun immunity is.
Ah, Aura of Righteousness. Immunity to Compulsion spells, and the Power Words are compulsions (why are they compulsions? oh well...).
Still, the simple matter of greater dispel magic at will prevents a solo standard melee paladin from having any hope of killing the pit fiend. Even an archer is going to be outranged: maximum range for a composite longbow is 1,100 feet (with a -18 to hit at that range, which means even a non-iterative smite has a good chance to miss a pit fiend), while the range on a CL18 fireball is 1,120 feet.
I insist that these details are not important. It's just we play different.
Anyway, the Paladin gets immune to compulsions at 17th level. Since Power Word Stun is (Compulsion)... I'd bet is that.
Maybe it's just that some of us, would like the rules to make characters a bit less powerfull, leaving the monster as they are (I mean you can personally inscrease numbers as you see fit, decreasing is a bit more tedious) and having no need of boosting monsters or playing the Pitfiend or a Balor THAT defensively. If they are that scared of facing the Paladin in melee, I tend to think something is wrong. Maybe, I am wrong. There are things that should not be discussed this far...
Good Game to You ALL. :)
Ah, Aura of Righteousness. Immunity to Compulsion spells, and the Power Words are compulsions (why are they compulsions? oh well...).
Still, the simple matter of greater dispel magic at will prevents a solo standard melee paladin from having any hope of killing the pit fiend. Even an archer is going to be outranged: maximum range for a composite longbow is 1,100 feet (with a -18 to hit at that range, which means even a non-iterative smite has a good chance to miss a pit fiend), while the range on a CL18 fireball is 1,120 feet.
This brings up another point. The supposedly overpowered paladin cant even take the 3.5 pit fiend. Once it gets the extra feats the paladin surely has no chance. It will probably get flyby attack allowing it to sunder the paladins bow or use disarm to just take it away after winning initiative, and since the paladin is flat-footed and not in threat range he cant do anything about it. We might as well call this part of the debate done.
PS: The compulsion thing is strange.
If they are that scared of facing the Paladin in melee, I tend to think something is wrong.
There are lots of monsters who wouldn't want to face a melee-focused character in melee when they themselves perform equally well at range.
Like, every monster with a ranged attack and an Intelligence score higher than 3.
I would expect a being with 26 Intelligence and Wisdom to know what a Paladin(20) can do if you let the fight go his way, and to take prudent steps to avoid that happening. If a Pit Fiend felt comfortable bashing away at the Paladin in melee, without buffing itself in any way, I'd take that as a sign of the Paladin being grossly underpowered.
I insist that these details are not important. It's just we play different.
Anyway, the Paladin gets immune to compulsions at 17th level. Since Power Word Stun is (Compulsion)... I'd bet is that.
Maybe it's just that some of us, would like the rules to make characters a bit less powerfull, leaving the monster as they are (I mean you can personally inscrease numbers as you see fit, decreasing is a bit more tedious) and having no need of boosting monsters or playing the Pitfiend or a Balor THAT defensively. If they are that scared of facing the Paladin in melee, I tend to think something is wrong. Maybe, I am wrong. There are things that should not be discussed this far...
Good Game to You ALL. :)
When I last posted your post was not even visible. These boards do strange things.
It is not a fear thing. It is an intelligence issue. Why put yourself in a situation where you can lose. Devils are known to make act very intelligently, so why would the smartest one make a stupid move. Devils play to win. That is noted just by how they structure their contracts to make sure the mortal always loses. To play them otherwise is just putting your own spin on it. If they are not even willing to lose on a contract, that poses no actual danger to them why would they take a chance with their health on the line? A demon might get frustrated after a while and go for the paladin due to their lack of patience, but a devil would sit back and nickel and dime you all day, and be happy with the results. Even in the MM tactics section the Balor is the one that favors melee, while the Pit Fiend sits back and uses SLA's. Pit Fiends are also smart enough to know it can handle the average mortal, but there is always the exception. You dont survive in the 9 hells by being foolish, and letting pride get the better of you.
This brings up another point. The supposedly overpowered paladin cant even take the 3.5 pit fiend. Once it gets the extra feats the paladin surely has no chance. It will probably get flyby attack allowing it to sunder the paladins bow or use disarm to just take it away after winning initiative, and since the paladin is flat-footed and not in threat range he cant do anything about it. We might as well call this part of the debate done.
PS: The compulsion thing is strange.
I still haven't heard any single good argument where the Pit Fied wins from the Palladin. The beast can't harm the Pally and if he does, the Pally will heal himself to supperior levels once again. Fly-by attack, we use such attacks at level 10 or even level 8, that should be no suprise for a near epic Palladin. If the dumb devil takes the flight the Palladin will get his bow and shoot the beast to pieces, or mount his flying mount and slash the poor devil. Even for grappling the Palladin will have a HUGE CMB + CMD plus he can always heal himself. Sorry guys, I willing to play this game 10 times over but as long as the Pallay bypasses the creatures demage reduction and does almost 100 damage on each attack the Pit Fiend will fly, just to save his own ass and flee from the hero that wants to slay him.
Also we play high power games, and even over here one level 20 character is not supposed to take out one CR 20 character easily.
Ah, Aura of Righteousness. Immunity to Compulsion spells, and the Power Words are compulsions (why are they compulsions? oh well...).
Still, the simple matter of greater dispel magic at will prevents a solo standard melee paladin from having any hope of killing the pit fiend. Even an archer is going to be outranged: maximum range for a composite longbow is 1,100 feet (with a -18 to hit at that range, which means even a non-iterative smite has a good chance to miss a pit fiend), while the range on a CL18 fireball is 1,120 feet.
Sorry friend, but we play battles on a grid, when someone is 1,120 Feet away he is out of grid and out of combat. Also when a creature is 1,120 Feet away and trying to do harm to my character, I would just go home (in game - get out of there) to slay the beast another day. Yes, you would play a perfect Palladin just sitting there on half a mile distance and waiting for a high level spellcaster to come near. Please lets use realistic arguments for battle examples.
Sorry friend, but we play battles on a grid, when someone is 1,120 Feet away he is out of grid and out of combat.
I guess said Pit Fiend will be able to play cat-and-mouse with the paladin essentially forever, then.
Also, a Paladin can only heal a finite amount with Lay on Hands - after that is exhausted, the Pit Fiend can carry on lobbing fireballs from a safe distance and the Paladin can do nothing.
Please lets use realistic arguments for battle examples.
An infallible plan with no risk of your opponent turning the tables on you is incredibly realistic as far as an ageless creature from the lower hells with 26 INT and WIS goes.
It might not be what the Paladin wants, but in what sense of "realism" would a Pit Fiend fighting a Paladin on the Paladin's own terms be?
It might not be what the Paladin wants, but in what sense of "realism" would a Pit Fiend fighting a Paladin on the Paladin's own terms be?
No, but its neither realistic to position the combat miles apart. Obviously the Pit Fiend can use his tricks. What I point out is that once the Pit Fiend is hit once or twice by the Palladin he has to reconsider his tactics from the offensive into how to get out of there allive.
Once the devil gets 100 damage on one attack, if he is really as inteligent as some claim, he will know that he can't out damage the Palladin and he will have to flee.
EDIT: If you want to hurl fireballs untill the Palladin is out of lay on hands, I'm sure both the DM and the Player(s) will fall asleep at a certain point. You keep on coming with nice ways how a Palladin will fail, obviously if you really want him to, he will fail. But if you look at it realisticly, the Palladin does simply to much damage on his favored enemies forcing you to make every combat intensly complicate in order to give the buggars a chance. And he does this extra damage very often and very hard, which makes almost every combat complicated. And that is what I'm pointing out.
Anyways maybe we should just drop the Pit Fiend case.
Okay so let me get this straight your problem isn't smite evil, it's smite evil AND aura of justice. You do understand that aura of justice isn't smite evil right? so your on a thread about smite evil complaining about two abilities not just one.
As I said, partly, I still don't like the double damage and the long duration. I've seen paladins in the Beta Stage make fine red mist's of their foes relativly quickly, I didn't feel there was any need to make it more powerful.
Nero... your solution is making them as awful as they were before, is that it?
So apparenlty it's impossible for classes to be balanced? Unless they have some horrendously overpowering abilities they're going to be considered weak? I'm wanting a balanced feature, and I felt the beta version did that far better than the current version.
Also, for the debate regarding pitfiends and other nasties, yes, in certain situations they will still own encounters. But then again, if you play monsters as being highly intellegent, they're liable to beat the PC's anyway unless they just happen to be Pun-Pun broken. A particularly smart one won't even need combat abilities to do it either. But the discussion of overpowering abilities comes from their common use, in this case a paladin being able to smite a creature (I.E the creature is evil and within range, two conditions which aren't hard to have in any game of D'n'D).
Yes, in the case of things like dragons they can always fly out of range and render the paladin's smite useless, but then again, if the dragon does that it will hamper most if not all other party members as well.
Once the devil gets 100 damage on one attack, if he is really as inteligent as some claim, he will know that he can't out damage the Palladin and he will have to flee.
Not "flee" so much as "reconsider combat tactics".
If the Pit Fiend dives in and puts himself in a situation where his supernatural and spell-like abilities are essentially nullified, and then gets a rather sound beating, then it's likely to try something different.
Even more likely, it's going to try something more effective from the outset instead of putting itself in that situation in the first place.
You keep on coming with nice ways how a Palladin will fail, obviously if you really want him to, he will fail.
Indeed, any character is vulnerable to an entity of similar power bent purely on destroying said character.
A Paladin working alone isn't going to be able to hunt down and destroy a Pit Fiend, though. Which was basically the initial premise of this line of debate. Having a Paladin in the group is likely to make the fight a good bit easier, yes, and will encourage different tactics on both sides when compared to a group without one, but a Pit Fiend is still no pushover if run correctly.
But then again, if you play monsters as being highly intellegent, they're liable to beat the PC's anyway unless they just happen to be Pun-Pun broken.
A Pit Fiend is likely every bit as intelligent (if not more so) than the Paladin at that level. Claiming that the PC's are allowed to use intelligent combat tactics but that monsters of similar intelligence aren't is a bit ... ludicrous, really.
If the PC's fight as smart as the monsters, they'll match up (roughly) to their challenge ratings. If one side plays stupid, they'll likely be steamrolled.
This brings up another point. The supposedly overpowered paladin cant even take the 3.5 pit fiend. Once it gets the extra feats the paladin surely has no chance. It will probably get flyby attack allowing it to sunder the paladins bow or use disarm to just take it away after winning initiative, and since the paladin is flat-footed and not in threat range he cant do anything about it. We might as well call this part of the debate done.
PS: The compulsion thing is strange.
I still haven't heard any single good argument where the Pit Fied wins from the Palladin. The beast can't harm the Pally and if he does, the Pally will heal himself to supperior levels once again. Fly-by attack, we use such attacks at level 10 or even level 8, that should be no suprise for a near epic Palladin. If the dumb devil takes the flight the Palladin will get his bow and shoot the beast to pieces, or mount his flying mount and slash the poor devil. Even for grappling the Palladin will have a HUGE CMB + CMD plus he can always heal himself. Sorry guys, I willing to play this game 10 times over but as long as the Pallay bypasses the creatures demage reduction and does almost 100 damage on each attack the Pit Fiend will fly, just to save his own ass and flee from the hero that wants to slay him.
Also we play high power games, and even over here one level 20 character is not supposed to take out one CR 20 character easily.
Everyone knows that if the paladin gets to the pit fiend he can kill him, but nobody has yet to tell me how it is going to happen. If the paladin has a bow in hand the pit fiend smashes it. That is what the flyby attack was for. Now he just plays keep away and dwindles his hit points down.
PS: As for one of you other statements, what makes you think paladin can just "go home" without being followed and attacked the entire time.
Everyone knows that if the paladin gets to the pit fiend he can kill him,
Hehe finally we agreed. This was exactly the point I'm making. And this is exactly what makes the Palladin overpowered. Lets not consider "what if situations" since "what if the Pit Fiend fails to shatter the bow" or "what if the Palladin has 2 or 3 bows" even a normal bow can kill a Pit Fiend in the hands of a Palladin after all. So not considering all the actual circumstances, Palladin and Pit Fiend builds and magic items, the Palladin can kill the creature easily in hand to hand combat, or archery as well, with his normal class abilities which are always actieve.
That was my point from the beginning and I think that this is overpowered. Also I'm pointing out that this is not only the case at level 20, but also at level 10 and even level 8. Where I have seen higher CR opponents trying to run away from the Palladin to save their ass, but failed misreable since at those level its not always possible to teleport away at will.
Technically speaking in a 1 on 1 combat it would probably be a tie, Palladin being more powerful, but Pit Fiend being more resourceful to save his ass with his abilities.
I'm of the opinion that Pit Fiend vs Pally Mano e mano favors the Fiend.Even with Super Smite. When said pally has a Wizard at lvl 20 things change. More so if there is a Cleric and a Skill Monkey to boot. The Pit Fiend is a Bad A** but not so much when there are 80 levels of highly cooperative players arrayed against him.
But, and this is just to throw a wrench into this, lets compare this new super Smite to the 3.5 Rogue's Sneak Attack. If I recall at level 20 the rogue could drop all sorts of things with a well placed backstab; also by this point, Imp Feint or that god awful Invisible Blade PrC makes SA work without a buddy. True you only get 1 SA per round but it's unlimited so does the Super Smite blow high level sneak attack out of the water?
I doubt it. Now the Rogue still has to overcome DR, but at lvl 20 DR is seldom a factor for high Level parties (Demi Liches excepted). The arguement so far seems to focus on how the Smite Evil nerfs the BBEGs but how does it compare to the other PC classes? Some of the new Fighter Feats look devastating especially at high levels and the Barbie's Rage Features give not incomparable advantages.
I always detested how the Fighter's damage output was so far outstripped in 3.5 by the Rogues Sneak Attack (which was admittedly handicapped by creature type). After Level 10 the Rogues were the closers and the melee types were just meat shields and speed bumps. The Pally in 3.5 wasn't even a great Speed Bump. If the Pally get's to Shine in a Mechanical way (not just a RP way) then great. I agree that the combination of new Pally powers is pretty tough, it's not the ultimate class to the exclusion of all others at least from what I've seen.
Balance is important, but not in a vacume, cross class balance is necessary as well.
I wonder how much of this is folks who simply dislike the Pally concept, or dislike the pally stealing the Limelight from traditional heavy damage dealer classes or really think that a character puttin the smack down on a boss type is a horrible thing. I've been watching overoptimized character builds do that for 3 or 4 years now.
Then again my PFRPG players are only lvl 4 so I'm opperating with limited experience and no one picked a Pally, though I would have, just to get wistfull about my old Ad&d days.
Also just for posterity's sake I ran the Demi Lich encounter, it was nearly a TPK (3 of 5 dead, 1 of 5 clobbered, 1 just barely alive) and the players played extremely well. The adventure as a whole would hve sucked up the daily smites super fast and that's just counting the tough encounters. While I prefer event based games an old fahioned Dungeon crawl hurts limited daily powers, Turn Undead was gone before the Donjon was ever reached.
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Everyone knows that if the paladin gets to the pit fiend he can kill him,Hehe finally we agreed. This was exactly the point I'm making. And this is exactly what makes the Palladin overpowered. Lets not consider "what if situations" since "what if the Pit Fiend fails to shatter the bow" or "what if the Palladin has 2 or 3 bows" even a normal bow can kill a Pit Fiend in the hands of a Palladin after all. So not considering all the actual circumstances, Palladin and Pit Fiend builds and magic items, the Palladin can kill the creature easily in hand to hand combat, or archery as well, with his normal class abilities which are always actieve.
Actually he can't, not making assumptions of what the paladin has in his inventory, he'll never kill the pit fiend because he can't beat the regeneration :P
Actually he can't, not making assumptions of what the paladin has in his inventory, he'll never kill the pit fiend because he can't beat the regeneration :P
Everyone knows that if the paladin gets to the pit fiend he can kill him,Hehe finally we agreed. This was exactly the point I'm making. And this is exactly what makes the Palladin overpowered. Lets not consider "what if situations" since "what if the Pit Fiend fails to shatter the bow" or "what if the Palladin has 2 or 3 bows" even a normal bow can kill a Pit Fiend in the hands of a Palladin after all. So not considering all the actual circumstances, Palladin and Pit Fiend builds and magic items, the Palladin can kill the creature easily in hand to hand combat, or archery as well, with his normal class abilities which are always actieve.
Very well pointed, the good old Pit Fiend would keep regenerating there...
I'd like to say, that nor do I see, nor can I understand how a Pally could possibly win in a fight against a Pit Fiend, even if he is build for that from the start, the Pit fiend has none of his spells working and all that.
The only way I see that happening is the pally, right next to the Fiend AND win initiative, wich is extremelly unlikelly.
The Pit Fiend is a smart guy, he will play at a distance as it is writen in it's description, and even if the pally tries to smack down a Balor, who very much like close combat I DOUBT he would, cause then it's a melle oriented Monster too... Things don't look to good for the knight in shining armor against those two.
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He can beat regen it cannot regenerate damage from good aligned silvered weaponsActually he can't,, he'll never kill the pit fiend because he can't beat the regeneration :P
Everyone knows that if the paladin gets to the pit fiend he can kill him,Hehe finally we agreed. This was exactly the point I'm making. And this is exactly what makes the Palladin overpowered. Lets not consider "what if situations" since "what if the Pit Fiend fails to shatter the bow" or "what if the Palladin has 2 or 3 bows" even a normal bow can kill a Pit Fiend in the hands of a Palladin after all. So not considering all the actual circumstances, Palladin and Pit Fiend builds and magic items, the Palladin can kill the creature easily in hand to hand combat, or archery as well, with his normal class abilities which are always actieve.
OMG duh. The whole point was that invisible man said not to take into account what if situations, the only way a paladin beats the regen is if he has a silvered weapon, but that's a what if scenario, i.e. what if the paladin has a silvered weapon. And he specifically said not to take those into accounts, since all equipment is optional it's all based on what ifs, and therefor you can't assume he has a silvered weapon and without a silvered weapon he can't beat the regen hence the joke.
Technically even a level 1 flying creature (imp or so) with a reach weapon can kill a lone level 20 Palladin in 1000 rounds or so since he has no innate ability to fly! DUH!!! (he could jump though or try to hurl his weapon assuming he has no bow, or only one bow which has been sundered, however his full plate armor is too heavy to jump, maybe he has a mount with wings, that could work - nah he is lost)
Anyways Smite Evil is Evil!! :-)
We have house ruled the double damage and the damage reduction bypassing. The Palladin still owns the party fighter in combat against all evil creatures, and than not considering all his other non-combat abilities. I'm just suprised so many people like it while according to me its heavily damaging to your campaign (run a combat against evil outsiders with a Palladin and without - a huge difference).
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Anyways Smite Evil is Evil!! :-)
We have house ruled the double damage and the damage reduction bypassing. The Palladin still owns the party fighter in combat against all evil creatures, and than not considering all his other non-combat abilities. I'm just suprised so many people like it while according to me its heavily damaging to your campaign (run a combat against evil outsiders with a Palladin and without - a huge difference).
Against hordes of evil creatures a fighter or even a barbarian are superior in comparison to the paladin. Against hordes of evil outsiders or undead, a specialized ranger would be better, too.
Yes, it's nice to have a paladin around when you fight against evil outsiders. It's also nice to have a cleric around when you are fighting undead. Or a ranger when you are in the wilderness. Or a bard in about any encounter.All classes have their benefits.
Against hordes of evil outsiders or undead, a specialized ranger would be better, too.
I don't see how, considering that if a ranger focused his/her favoured enemy onto a single racial type, it would still only provide 1/4 of the damage a paladin does against those particular foes. What's more, a paladin can do it without specialising and can grant the bonus to his/her allies.
A ranger can do that too, but that's half the bonus, and they're already only dealing 1/4 of the normal damage.
Yes, it's nice to have a paladin around when you fight against evil outsiders. It's also nice to have a cleric around when you are fighting undead. Or a ranger when you are in the wilderness. Or a bard in about any encounter.
All classes have their benefits.
I don't think anyones arguing that certain classes shouldn't have perks in certain cirumstances. No one is saying "Remove smite evil altogeter". Everyone who has made a complaint about smite evil has said the same things, that it's too powerful. I've never seen a single complaint saying it should target different foes, or all foes, or otherwise be less cirumstancial.
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Against hordes of evil outsiders or undead, a specialized ranger would be better, too.I don't see how, considering that if a ranger focused his/her favoured enemy onto a single racial type, it would still only provide 1/4 of the damage a paladin does against those particular foes. What's more, a paladin can do it without specialising and can grant the bonus to his/her allies.
A ranger can do that too, but that's half the bonus, and they're already only dealing 1/4 of the normal damage.
But a ranger gets the bonus all the time, a paladin only when he is smiting. It's nice against single monsters but a lot less useful against groups of monsters. The paladin is rather easily overpowered by groups of evil monsters.
And the paladin is already specializing. He's specialized against evil enemies. Against the tarrasque, a ranger specialized against magical beasts gets a bonus of +10 on damage and +14 on attacks. The paladin gets nothing.And a lot of people are saying, that smite evil is powerful, not too powerful. It's just the right amount of powerful.
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Everyone who has made a complaint about smite evil has said the same things, that it's too powerful. I've never seen a single complaint saying it should target different foes, or all foes, or otherwise be less cirumstancial.
That's not true, I've complained about smite several times, I never once said that it was too powerful
Everyone knows that if the paladin gets to the pit fiend he can kill him,Hehe finally we agreed. This was exactly the point I'm making. And this is exactly what makes the Palladin overpowered. Lets not consider "what if situations" since "what if the Pit Fiend fails to shatter the bow" or "what if the Palladin has 2 or 3 bows" even a normal bow can kill a Pit Fiend in the hands of a Palladin after all. So not considering all the actual circumstances, Palladin and Pit Fiend builds and magic items, the Palladin can kill the creature easily in hand to hand combat, or archery as well, with his normal class abilities which are always actieve.
That was my point from the beginning and I think that this is overpowered. Also I'm pointing out that this is not only the case at level 20, but also at level 10 and even level 8. Where I have seen higher CR opponents trying to run away from the Palladin to save their ass, but failed misreable since at those level its not always possible to teleport away at will.
Technically speaking in a 1 on 1 combat it would probably be a tie, Palladin being more powerful, but Pit Fiend being more resourceful to save his ass with his abilities.
A 20th level fighter or barbarian that is properly built can take a pit fiend if he allows himself to be full attacked. By that argument all of the base classes are probably overpowered.
You obviously missed my earlier post where the paladin was beat down by a dragon, and an ice devil in a real game. Creatures that smart don't allow full attacks.
What do you mean what if situations? A bow is the easiest weapon to break. Sunder/disarm pick you poison.
That's actually not true either, a whip is the easiest weapon to break, its the only weapon besides the sling with a 0 hardness.
What do you mean what if situations? A bow is the easiest weapon to break. Sunder/disarm pick you poison.
Well uh......yeah. [No, witty retort comes to mind.]
Removed a post.
Argue with someone, yes. Disagree with their sentiments, yes. Attack them personally? Big no.
A 20th level fighter or barbarian that is properly built can take a pit fiend if he allows himself to be full attacked. By that argument all of the base classes are probably overpowered.You obviously missed my earlier post where the paladin was beat down by a dragon, and an ice devil in a real game. Creatures that smart don't allow full attacks.
What do you mean what if situations? A bow is the easiest weapon to break. Sunder/disarm pick you poison.
I agree, however maybe thats than just your cup of tea, but I have never seen a barbarian or a fighter with the same damage output capacity and Damage Reduction bypassing ability against Evil Undead/Outsiders/Dragons as the Palladin. Than I'm also not considering Palladin other extraordinary powerfull abilities. But if you play in campaigns where every properly built character can kill a Pit Fiend than you probably have indeed no problems with the Palladin. We on the other hand, even though playing high power campaigns do not kill such monsters at will, except for the Palladin than.
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I agree, however maybe thats than just your cup of tea, but I have never seen a barbarian or a fighter with the same damage output capacity and Damage Reduction bypassing ability against Evil Undead/Outsiders/Dragons as the Palladin. Than I'm also not considering Palladin other extraordinary powerfull abilities.
You are right. Fighters gain the ability to bypass any damage reduction, not only the one of evil enemies.
I have never seen a paladin with the same damage output capacity a fighter, barbarian or ranger has against a neutral enemy. Those are the advantages and disadvantages of specialization.And while +8 on damage certainly isn't as high as +40, fighters get this bonus all the time, against any kind of enemy as long as they are using their special weapon.
The fighter will also have a higher AC than the paladin.
Just a thought on the DR break.
To overcome Good without good on your weapon needs an equivalent +5 weapon if I remember right as its the last one on the chart - which also overcomes all other DRs anyway?
So knowing that, I dont think its unreasonable for a specific attack inspired with a good gods wrath to do the reverse and in effect be doing what the +5 would do in terms of damage reduction, in my opinion anyway.
Epic monsters are safe anyway, because I would rule that no magic or power short of epic-level can defeat epic DR. That DR 10/epic paragon minotaur is still safe from a non-epic paladin, by my reckoning.
Epic monsters are safe anyway, because I would rule that no magic or power short of epic-level can defeat epic DR. That DR 10/epic paragon minotaur is still safe from a non-epic paladin, by my reckoning.
I wouldnt disagree with that if my DM at the time wanted it and I got a pathfinder char to epic level basically because its not unreasonable but would have to pity the non epic paladin for being in the situation to need to try and smite that epic paragon minotaur :) and lets face it is the epic minotaur gonna care that much even if you did let the DR be bypassed lol
A 20th level fighter or barbarian that is properly built can take a pit fiend if he allows himself to be full attacked. By that argument all of the base classes are probably overpowered.You obviously missed my earlier post where the paladin was beat down by a dragon, and an ice devil in a real game. Creatures that smart don't allow full attacks.
What do you mean what if situations? A bow is the easiest weapon to break. Sunder/disarm pick you poison.
We on the other hand, even though playing high power campaigns do not kill such monsters at will, except for the Palladin than.
I have yet to see a paladin kill high level _____ at will in a real game or theoretically unless the DM just lets the monsters stand there and take the attack.
Let med add an edited quote by James Jacobs. The thread and full quote can be found here
[...] when we go above 15th level, monster options become increasingly sparse, especially since for many encounters you want things that are above the party level by 2 or 3 CRs. This essentially means dragons and evil outsiders and creatures with complex class levels or monsters from beyond the core Bestiary from other Bestiaries or products which means more full-reprinted stat blocks which means longer adventures.
I would also add undeads to the list of monsters.
Anyway, most of the monsters will be evil and a lot of them will be dragons, evil outsiders and undeads. Hence the Paldin will dominate.OT. Of all the 'melee classes', I pity the Barbarian the most. IMHO.
The paladin will also be spending time healing his allies. It is not like he gets to attack all day, while everyone else just sits back and watches. If the monster can hurt the party bad enough the cleric, and the paladin might both be healing and/or removing status affects on their turn.
The paladin will also be spending time healing his allies. It is not like he gets to attack all day, while everyone else just sits back and watches. If the monster can hurt the party bad enough the cleric, and the paladin might both be healing and/or removing status affects on their turn.
So the Paladin is not more powerful than other thanks because he can also heal and remove status affects?
What would a fighter do in the same situation? Less powerful and he can't heal others. Suck it up and go on hitting evil foes with success.
Fighter Less Powerfull? That's a bit of a streatch, isn't it?
He would keep on hitting for large amounts of damage, more sucess rate, more AC and probably some awesome maneuvers from his great variaty of feats to get.