Look, I'm going to be pretty blunt here:
First, the design team for Dreamscarred Press working on the Psionics revamp is me, Andreas, and Phil. Phil wrote High Psionics: Soulknives and is working on the Pathfinder version of the soulknife.
All three of us are excited about this project and working to follow the Pathfinder design paradigms when it comes to this revision.
None of us can control if some people don't like Pathfinder - but all of us like it and embrace it. Just as some people on THIS board don't like Pathfinder, not everyone everywhere is going to like Pathfinder.
So, if you want to think that Dreamscarred Press doesn't like Pathfinder, when we've chosen one of the largest undertaking in our company history to support the system, then I don't really know what to tell you.
Second, we have no intention of making a "psionic cleric" or "psionic wizard". Our intent is to make the psionic classes unique, and even the different forms of psion unique, but there will inevitably be some form of overlap with other classes. Our goal is to make the system unique, but also have it fit in overall.
Finally, as for Paizo endorsing it, we approached Paizo about us doing Psionics over a year ago. Erik gave us some initial ear time, then forwarded the email off to Jason and, frankly, we never heard back, despite follow-ups. If it was a rejection, I'd admit so, but we were simply met with silence.
Whether Paizo officially supports us or not, we're doing it, because we want to play Psionics in Pathfinder ourselves, and we want a balanced system, and we want others to enjoy psionics as much as we do.
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Second, we have no intention of making a "psionic cleric" or "psionic wizard". Our intent is to make the psionic classes unique, and even the different forms of psion unique, but there will inevitably be some form of overlap with other classes. Our goal is to make the system unique, but also have it fit in overall.
That's what I was talking about. The psionic wizard and psionic cleric is what I'm staunchly against. Overlap is unavoidable at a point, even arcane and divine overlap, and psionic overlap I can understand if it fits the type of psionic, such as a pyrokinetic doing a psionic version of a fireball.
So, if you want to think that Dreamscarred Press doesn't like Pathfinder, when we've chosen one of the largest undertaking in our company history to support the system, then I don't really know what to tell you.
Best wishes with that, honestly. If you pull it off well, you'll win my cash.
Finally, as for Paizo endorsing it, we approached Paizo about us doing Psionics over a year ago. Erik gave us some initial ear time, then forwarded the email off to Jason and, frankly, we never heard back, despite follow-ups. If it was a rejection, I'd admit so, but we were simply met with silence.
That's kinda crappy on their part.
Best wishes with that, honestly. If you pull it off well, you'll win my cash.
I have a feeling no matter what we do, we'll have folks that don't like it - the same is true of the XPH and, while it's not perfect, it's far and away my favorite part of 3.5. But, we're doing this as an open project specifically to get as many eyes on it - keeping things balanced and watching out for excessive overlap.
So far, the feedback has been great - and we've only put out 2 alpha documents so far! I'm hoping to put out another Prestige Class alpha doc this week, possibly the elocater, possibly the metamind, and work continues on a Beta version of the psionic races. Andreas is getting close to having an Alpha version of the Wilder, and I think Phil is making major progress on the Soulknife. It's an exciting project for us.
That's kinda crappy on their part.
Eh, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt - they were still developing the system and probably extremely busy - I believe we approached them between Alpha and Beta releases of Pathfinder. It's just a shame that we couldn't further discuss the prospect. Since discussions require two sides and all that.
Finally, as for Paizo endorsing it, we approached Paizo about us doing Psionics over a year ago. Erik gave us some initial ear time, then forwarded the email off to Jason and, frankly, we never heard back, despite follow-ups. If it was a rejection, I'd admit so, but we were simply met with silence.That's kinda crappy on their part.
Well, they probably should have given an official response, but I expect the official response would've been something along the lines of "Do whatever you like, but we reserve the right to make our own 'official' psionic book at some point in the future."
Best wishes with that, honestly. If you pull it off well, you'll win my cash.I have a feeling no matter what we do, we'll have folks that don't like it - the same is true of the XPH and, while it's not perfect, it's far and away my favorite part of 3.5. But, we're doing this as an open project specifically to get as many eyes on it - keeping things balanced and watching out for excessive overlap.
So far, the feedback has been great - and we've only put out 2 alpha documents so far! I'm hoping to put out another Prestige Class alpha doc this week, possibly the elocater, possibly the metamind, and work continues on a Beta version of the psionic races. Andreas is getting close to having an Alpha version of the Wilder, and I think Phil is making major progress on the Soulknife. It's an exciting project for us.
That's kinda crappy on their part.Eh, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt - they were still developing the system and probably extremely busy - I believe we approached them between Alpha and Beta releases of Pathfinder. It's just a shame that we couldn't further discuss the prospect. Since discussions require two sides and all that.
Where is the alpha document at? Could we get a link to it?
Where is the alpha document at? Could we get a link to it?
You'll need to be logged into the Dreamscarred Press site, but here are the links to the threads with the documents:
Personally, I'd like to think that the staff of PF is reading this thread (and with open minds). I can also see them reading the threads at DSP. They have said in the past that they see a place for psionics in Golarion and PF, and that they want it in game. But why the silence on their part? Probably because they are so busy with their upcoming products.
But maybe they are considering a "partnership" with DSP on psionics. They just want to see how DSP is going to conduct their playtests and write ups. You know, a "tasting a meal or two before committing to having the wedding reception there" kind of thing. (In my dreams at least...)
And I'm not at all upset with them for not having or announcing their own psionics product yet, either (not to imply that anyone else is). They are putting their efforts into the upcoming Bestiary, Gamemasterery Guide, and Advanced Player's Guide. These are going to be fantastic products and they are in demand! Kudos to Paizo!
Last, but not least, everyone may want to cool their jets a little... I think we may have some "heated agreements" starting up on this thread. :)
I had some pretty big concerns about DSP's attitude towards Paiz and Pathfinder.
But Jeremey Smith is right. You can't control what everybody on your messageboard is going to say or think. Any more than we can over here.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but they've satisfied me that they're sincere in desire and intent to adhere to Pathfinder Paradigms. And I started out skeptical... but they come across as very genuine about it.
That's all I can ask for then. I'll have to wait and see the finished product. Will you guys being doing a public beta test when you're close to completion?
Yup. :)
And for the record, we don't have any animosity for Paizo over the whole official psionics thing. In case there was any confusion. :)
Do you have an ETA for your BETA?
Not really. While we're putting out rough alpha docs, I'd prefer that our Beta versions be what we internally consider to be "Ready for Release". The Alphas are more about updating for Pathfinder and gathering fan feedback, while the Betas would be more about making sure nothing was overlooked prior to release.
More than likely, as we're doing for the Alpha docs, we'll be releasing Beta docs as they're ready.
Jeremy,
Are you going to have a print final version or at least the option for a POD at Lulu.com?
Doug
Jeremy,
Are you going to have a print final version or at least the option for a POD at Lulu.com?
Doug
Doug,
The plan is to have a print version available both through Lulu.com and through Amazon.
Alrighty, I got a fair bit of work done so far this weekend.
First, I've sent a draft version of the metamind to Andreas to get his feedback.
Second, I've incorporated a couple changes to the Cerebremancer from feedback on our forums. A beta version of it may be available sooner rather than later.
I've started work on the elocater, adding in a few new abilities.
And, I've continued to go in and tweak the Psionic Races based upon feedback here and at the Dreamscarred Press forums. :)
I also think we've come to a sufficient agreement on skills for psionics:
First, Knowledge (psionics) will remain with minor adjustments. Psicraft will roll into Spellcraft. Use Psionic Device will roll into Use Magic Device. Psionic Focus will become a feature of Autohypnosis. Rules for Psionics is Different would likely call out reverting these changes - but that's a rule that we don't recommend - it tends to cause more game imbalance than it solves (psionics as different, not the skills themselves).
We are a step away from an Alpha Soulknife right now and I am working on the Wilder (which includes three variable paths for the Wilder to take).
On our website, you can find Alpha versions of the Cerebremancer, Pyrokineticist, Races as well as discussions about the Soulknife, Metamind, Feats, Skills and loads more!
BTW, someone asked about an ETA for the BETA? We are hoping pre-Christmas for the BETA document.
Lots of updates!
Psionic Prestige Class - Metamind
Psionic Prestige Class - Elocater
Psionic Prestige Class - Pyrokineticist
Blue player race
Soulknife should be out this week, too!
Lots of updates!
Psionic Prestige Class - Metamind
Psionic Prestige Class - Elocater
Psionic Prestige Class - Pyrokineticist
Blue player raceSoulknife should be out this week, too!
Uhm,
Ok, I checked the links, all I saw was a blog talking about them. I couldn't actually FIND them. Except for the Blue. Is there some secret handshake you have to do? I looked around the site for 20 minutes, got bored, came back here and posted.If you want people to respond to your posts, you should make it explicit in the posts where the actual class is you want them to look at, otherwise they get bored and snippy, as can be seen from this post.
Lots of updates!
Psionic Prestige Class - Metamind
Psionic Prestige Class - Elocater
Psionic Prestige Class - Pyrokineticist
Blue player raceSoulknife should be out this week, too!
Uhm,
Ok, I checked the links, all I saw was a blog talking about them. I couldn't actually FIND them. Except for the Blue. Is there some secret handshake you have to do? I looked around the site for 20 minutes, got bored, came back here and posted.If you want people to respond to your posts, you should make it explicit in the posts where the actual class is you want them to look at, otherwise they get bored and snippy, as can be seen from this post.
In order to download the pdfs, or even see the links to the pdfs on those pages, you have to be logged into the Dreamscarred Press forums.
If you want people to respond to your posts, you should make it explicit in the posts where the actual class is you want them to look at, otherwise they get bored and snippy, as can be seen from this post.
MDT - check about 10 posts up - I stated you have to be logged in to see the files to download. :)
If you want people to respond to your posts, you should make it explicit in the posts where the actual class is you want them to look at, otherwise they get bored and snippy, as can be seen from this post.MDT - check about 10 posts up - I stated you have to be logged in to see the files to download. :)
Ah,
Didn't see that. Ok, sorry for being snippy then. :)
Ah,
Didn't see that. Ok, sorry for being snippy then. :)
It's all good - I'm still looking into how to allow anon users to download attached files.
It's all good - I'm still looking into how to allow anon users to download attached files.Ah,
Didn't see that. Ok, sorry for being snippy then. :)
You could add them to your PDF store for $0.00 would be one way. Put a download page on your website. Upload them to the PathfinderDB site and ask them to host them. Just 3 ideas off the top of my head.
Damn still waiting for the War Mind
War Mind is likely going to be a bit of a wait - I've started working on the Slayer and Psion Uncarnate for my next two prestige classes.
Also - I realized we had the wrong permission set up for downloading attachments - so unregistered folks should now be able to download just fine.
And - the soulknife is out.
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Damn still waiting for the War MindWar Mind is likely going to be a bit of a wait - I've started working on the Slayer and Psion Uncarnate for my next two prestige classes.
Also - I realized we had the wrong permission set up for downloading attachments - so unregistered folks should now be able to download just fine.
And - the soulknife is out.
Soulknife is amazing... seriously. Paizo if you don't look at this you're missing out on something real. The community is going to love this work. Especially since the number of people joining the DSP forums just to help with pathfinder is doubling nearly every day ^_^
Excellent work. Soulknife is no longer weak!
Be warned though... it does seem MUCH more powerful than before... but that's just because its had to be buffed TWICE. Once to bring it up to snuff with other 3.5 stuff... then AGAIN to bring it up to the higher level of power in pathfinder.
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I don´t think it´s that much more powerfull. It´s upgrade seems on pair with the monk upgrade. Made better at what it´s supposed to be better.
However it is much more varied. Over 10 different kinds of soulknives can be done just by choosing class abilities.
I see flexibility as power. The true strength of the fighter class isn't in its individual specializations. But in that a well played fighter can become almost anything. Its the same for the soulknife. It can do a lot with the abilities given.
Flexibility IS power in the end. At least from the GM's perspective.
The wilder is now out, too!
Psion should be out hopefully early next week.
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The wilder is now out, too!
Psion should be out hopefully early next week.
Apparently... they kidnapped old saint nick... cause Christmas is coming early!
Can't wait for discipline powers!
I'm happy to see you are liking both the Wilder and the Soulknife (cudos to MaverickWolf aka Phil for co-design on the Soulknife).
Now tell us whatya like and what is wrong, so we can fix and tweak and give you even better stuff! :D
Is it just me or does the soulknife look kind of overpowered?
I'm a big psionics fan and I ran quiet a few campaignssettings with psionics in 3.0 and 3.5. In 3.0 they were way to strong compared to other classes and in 3.5 they were less.
So I'm really hoping for a balance this time.
Jan - the point of the alpha is to catch any mechanical issues along with any balance issues, so if you notice anything that appears to be mechanically a problem - either through how it works or being too strong / weak, feel free to point out specifics - that's why we're doing open Alpha and Beta releases - to get feedback!
Just wanted to make a general reply to this, because as a long standing D&D player since 2e days(i never got privilege of playing 1e)psionics has always been one of my more favrite concepts. Saddly never really played one, but since pathfinder came out and i'm reading Homeland by R.A. Salvatore for the first time, i find myself wanting to play a psionic more then ever before! So, although i've never played one skimming through my book here are things i've observed and like and dislike.
1: first time, is the psionic points, when i first started a psion that died at level 2(darn cruddy bad save!), one thing i hated was psp's! but only at first, as i played my second psion i liked the idea of the psionic points because it felt differant from my wizard. I'd like to see psp's remain, and i love how i could spend a few points and enhance a power i already knew beyond its basic damage or effect.
2: The displines being weird... yes one person hit it on head, what is a psychometabolic? we don't really know... i'd rather they change names into something more familiar to understand.
3: psychic warrior needs to go, just throw it out the door and remake it. Here is my basic gripe with this class, its essentially a fighter with psionic powers pasted onto it...if gonna do that make it a prc, not a core class! i'd rather see a psionic warrior changed to be unique. Make them focus on physical enhancements via psionics... what i mean is! no armor, no weapons BUT create weapons out of there own bodies, make there skin as hard as steel confering armor bonuses! enhance own stats beyond a normal person, via psionics THEY are mind over body, and don't require weapons because there body IS a weapon!
Soul Knife: i LOVE this class but really felt sub-par i had a drow soul knife mind flayer hunter whom, i adored to death even if i never got to play him to much. But i really did feel sub-par compared to a fighter or rogue, not sure how to enhance them beyond making them a psionic monk. No armor, no weapons but can create armor and weapons out of psionic energy to enhance combat. Where a psychic warrior is hardening body or creating weapons from there bones or mutating there body a soul knife is creating it through force of will!
4: Magic/Psionic transparency: my friend and i have discussed this alot since he's been heavily into drizzit series. Reading about how psionics were so strong and interesting. We both heavily agreed that psionics NEEDS to be effected by arcane magic and vice versa sheerly for smoothness of play. I remember when needed psionic resistance to block psionics, an SR for magic and...if had both in your party HAD to insure that all monsters had both or it was frustraiting to DM. keep the transparency its just a better system that way.
5. Psionic Weapons/Armor: one thing always bothered me was magic or psionic gear. Always seemed sub-par...never stood out, and just seemed rather lame. When i went to get gear for my psionic characters was always... look in psionic books put them away grab dmg because just had better general items then psionic book. Only thing was any good was the stones could use to store psp...like to see gear stand out, and be unique and useful rather then gimmicky.
Lastly just leave you with this tidbit. Psionics NEED to be unique, definitive and fun. Its a great concept, and while it is just another form of magic,for what is magic but a classy way of making things happen in a strange and mystical way! psionics is no differant, but needs to be interesting enough to play, and differant enough to be fun or add to a groups dynamic.
I dont think there should be a save because it would most likely be a fort save, and at that level monsters generally laugh at saves. I would limit it to X times per day however. Maybe 1/day at 13th level, and 2/day somewhere between 17 and 20th
I have to say that I am surprised to see such a negative feedback regarding Knife to the Soul which has been with the class since it was first introduced in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Is there a particular reason this ability has become so dangerous suddenly? And as with many things that don't require a save - this one requires you to hit with your attack, and having precharged your mind blade with the ability damage (instead of extra damage).
I am trying to grasp why one of the things I never expected would need a change is suddenly so debated (and this is also why I love Open gamedesign - more eyes can tell me things I might otherwise miss).
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I have to say that I am surprised to see such a negative feedback regarding Knife to the Soul which has been with the class since it was first introduced in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Is there a particular reason this ability has become so dangerous suddenly? And as with many things that don't require a save - this one requires you to hit with your attack, and having precharged your mind blade with the ability damage (instead of extra damage).
I am trying to grasp why one of the things I never expected would need a change is suddenly so debated (and this is also why I love Open gamedesign - more eyes can tell me things I might otherwise miss).
I don't see why its terribly over powered. Yes you can mess casters up with it... but it is terribly dangerous for you to get THAT close to one. That's a good way to take a nasty touch attack (Something a soulknife doesn't have much defense against)
It is prevented from inflicting con damage... so I see both of them as perfectly fine for a class feature.
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I don't see why its terribly over powered. Yes you can mess casters up with it... but it is terribly dangerous for you to get THAT close to one. That's a good way to take a nasty touch attack (Something a soulknife doesn't have much defense against)It is prevented from inflicting con damage... so I see both of them as perfectly fine for a class feature.
It's not only useful against casters. It's devestating against any creature with low mental ability scores that isn't immune to ability damage or mind-affecting. There are many monsters, even high CR ones, that have ability scores of 10 or below.
Abilities like Stunning Fist allows a save, too, so I see no reason why Knife to the Soul shouldn't.
I think the overall point of Andreas's comment is that:
Knife to the Soul, as written, is the same as in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and I rarely saw huge balance concerns with it in 3.5. Why all the hubbub now?
Knife to the Soul (Su): Beginning at 13th level, when a soulknife executes a psychic strike, he can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (his choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage he gives up, he deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. A soulknife can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination.
The soulknife decides which ability score his psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when he imbues his mind blade with the psychic strike energy
When a soulknife with knife to the soul executes a psychic strike, he can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (his choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage he gives up, he deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. A soulknife can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination.
Unlike the base psychic strike ability, knife to the soul is entirely reliant on the creature’s mind, and cannot be used on creatures immune to mind-affecting abilities.
The soulknife decides which ability score his psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when he imbues his mind blade with the psychic strike energy.
The only difference between the two mechanically is that our alpha document calls out that creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to knife to the soul, because psychic strike had that restriction removed - otherwise, the two versions are identical...
The only change to the ability was the second choice - Dex or Str damage as a permanent choice instead of Int / Wis / Cha...
If the concern is with the Dex / Str portion of the ability, please say so, but if the concern is the Cha / Int / Wis part - well, that's been something since the Expanded Psionics Handbook - have you always viewed it as a problem?
While it never actually came up in my games, I did look at the power, and I decided a WILL save would be appropriate. As was stated earlier in the thread, there are some high-level creatures which would be devastated by the power the way it's written.
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Knife to the Soul has always been a rather powerful ability for an otherwise weak class. With the changes that were done to increase the soulknife's overall usefulness, Knife to the Soul becomes much more of a problem. At 13th level, a soulknife's attack bonus will be about 5 points higher than it was in 3.5 (4 points of insight bonus from blade specialist plus one from weapon focus), resulting in a much greater chance of success.
In addition to that, there are blade skills that would make Knife to the Soul even more powerful, increasing the amount of damage done or the possibility to apply it twice as a standard action.
Other effects that didn't allow a save also got one in Pathfinder, such as Ray of Enfeeblement. Although I'm not sure if a save for half damage would be sufficient, there are high CR monsters with an Intelligence of 2 and a rather low AC that would still be extremely vulnerable against the ability.
Limiting it to a few times per day on the other hand would be a rather bad idea, since the ability would be rather useless in most cases.
Knife to the Soul has always been a rather powerful ability for an otherwise weak class. With the changes that were done to increase the soulknife's overall usefulness, Knife to the Soul becomes much more of a problem. At 13th level, a soulknife's attack bonus will be about 5 points higher than it was in 3.5 (4 points of insight bonus from blade specialist plus one from weapon focus), resulting in a much greater chance of success.
In addition to that, there are blade skills that would make Knife to the Soul even more powerful, increasing the amount of damage done or the possibility to apply it twice as a standard action.
Other effects that didn't allow a save also got one in Pathfinder, such as Ray of Enfeeblement.
Fair enough - thanks for the more elaborate response. :)
Are there any beta rules available.
The first thing to do with Psionics is the make the manifestation rules simple. Use one ability for everything Psionics and perhaps the best attribute is Intelligence or Wisdom but not both like Sorceror (Int\Cha).
Psionics should be their own category just like Clerics and Wizards, Range melee and close melee.
To give Clerics more popularity, maybe they should be the ones that can effect psionics the most since their powers come from the heavens.
I was thinking instead of having multiple Psion classes, just have one.
Psionics are used to augment ones power and you can choose what you want to do for that session giving the character a more broad range capability until your power points run out. So you can do more but not as long. You can extend the duration with augmentation such as Psionic created items or something else.
This will give those who become bored with being a front line fighter when there is no fight and the psionicist can balance out the group during encounters.
So he\she is basically a jack of all trades as long as he\she has power points, to the end of the power's duration, or until they need rest.
For example -
I start out with -
Str 10
Con 10
HP 6
And we find out the party could use a little more extra front line fighting - The psionicist manifests their power which still can fail to augment their str and Con to fighter levels and then augment their HP to fighter level since 6 is a little squishy.
And now look more like this -
Str 16+
Con 16+
HP 18
If the party needs another range, then the Psionicist can manifest powers that would give them similar powers to a Soulbow.
It is just an idea -
Or you can use Psionics to augment the other classes as long as they have the pre-reqs instead of being its own class.
By the by; has the wilder already been redone?
I think more important is that DSP is following the PF ideal of having classes and characters be backwards compatible. Drastic changes, such as removing of classes, just isn't realistic.
Like it or not Psionics became a large, complex ruleset when it was introduced in 3.0. It could have been made simpler, perhaps even MUCH simpler, but then it would lack the depth and nuance that the system currently has in 3.5.
I think one thing that DSP should look at is crafting the rules in such a way that a DM can include a varying degree of psionics rules for different campaigns. Some DM's want something simple that gives an adventure a slightly different flavor. Other DM's want to include psionics on a massive scale, whether its in a nation or race within their campaign. A ruleset that can move from simplified to complex/nuanced is my hopes for this endeavor.
For those interested, there are Alpha Documents of the following at the Dreamscarred Press website:
Classes
* Wilder
* Soulknife
Races
* All the XPH races plus
* Ophiduan
* Blue
Prestige Classes
* Pyrokineticist
* Cerebremancer
* Elocater
* Metamind
To be able to view and download most of the documents you need to be logged into our forums. We hope you don't mind. :)
I am expecting an Alpha of the PsyWar early next week and the Psion at the end of next week. We might get the PsyWar this Friday if we're lucky.
For future references - we will NOT be making MAJOR changes to how the psionics system works. For those interested in alternate psionic systems, I would recommend Green Ronins "Psychics Handbook".
However - all the comments coming in are allowing us both to get a feel for how people feel about the changes, but we're also getting LOADS of awesome ideas, critical minds picking up our mistakes before they make it into a PDF or a book and in general giving us massive energy for this undertaking.
You guys are awesome! :D