No more stupid or ugly half-orcs (unless you want them to be). Hello half-orc bards, sorcerers, and wizards!
Awesome!
I refer of course to the new and improved half-orc of the PFRPG Core Rules. Bravo!
Hmmm ... I actually preferred how their stats were in the beta. It gave "Half-Orcs" more of a distinct "character."
I'm curious how FULL Orcs will end up...
Oh bite me. We've been neutered and rendered as meaningless as Half-elves. I for one don't appreciate your jubilations about it.
I'm unsure if Half-elves are any longer "meaningless". Stats-wise they have most abilities now (and all are quite useful).
Half-orcs definitely got the worse treatment out of all the races. Their justification for neutering them is that they are "half-human". Well what about their "orc" side? Sheesh, Half-elves (Amongst other races) get keen senses with gives them +2 to the most useful (and frequently used) skill in the game (Perception - which combines 3 skills - search, spot, listen). Half-orcs get +2 to Intimidate. Woo hoo!
This is one very unhappy orc fan here. *grumbles* *kicks a cat*
I'm personally looking forward to rolling up a half-orc assassin at some point. Smells like 1st edition to me.
Hmmm. I like the PFRPG half-orc better than the 3.5 half-orc, but I think I liked the Beta version better than either of them.
Oh well. That's why it's called a beta.
... or House Rules. ;)
I wouldn't mind a half orc that doesn't necesarily have to be a fight/barbarian class. Here comes the half orc rogue or even wizard... i guess this set up makes sense for future books cause I wouldn't mind playing a half orc shaman or druid... (I know it's sort of WoW ish.. but at least the possibilities are there.
Surely no one is suggesting that half-orcs were not intelligent and beautiful before this week?
That would be unfortunate.
Surely no one is suggesting that half-orcs were not intelligent and beautiful before this week?
That would be unfortunate.
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I wouldn't mind a half orc that doesn't necesarily have to be a fight/barbarian class. Here comes the half orc rogue or even wizard... i guess this set up makes sense for future books cause I wouldn't mind playing a half orc shaman or druid... (I know it's sort of WoW ish.. but at least the possibilities are there.
Um, yeah...
Someone wanna tell Sir Shajir that he's talkin to a 3.5 rogue here? Yeah, just step over on the opposite side of him and explain it...
Now, where's my faorite kukri...
Surely no one is suggesting that half-orcs were not intelligent and beautiful before this week?
That would be unfortunate.
Surely no one is suggesting that half-orcs were not intelligent and beautiful before this week?
That would be unfortunate.
Och! Ye hae a fash lie a dug lickin pesh orfa jaggy nettle!
Huh. Well that's kinda boring.
Oh well.
Och! Ye hae a fash lie a dug lickin pesh orfa jaggy nettle!Surely no one is suggesting that half-orcs were not intelligent and beautiful before this week?
That would be unfortunate.
Sir, this slight against my people will not go unchallenged.
Oh bite me. We've been neutered and rendered as meaningless as Half-elves. I for one don't appreciate your jubilations about it.
Gurubabaramalamaswami feet tastes better than they smell.
As for neutered...I just don't see that at all. More like set free of an old trope in favor of greater variety.
... No, I'm still really not liking this. A race's ability boosts are too central to how we perceive said race. These half-orcs just seem like green humans with darkvision.
And no, I don't think you can say "the difference is all in the flavor". These arehumans we're talking about. Humans have no set flavor to distinguish from. If you say that half-orcs are "much like humans but with different culture", you're at most making them a different ethnicity.
Part of what made half-orcs so compelling was that they were so superficially different but fundamentally human. Now that they're superficially human too...
As it stands, dim-but-wise halforcs are already conceptually entrenched in the setting I'm brewing, so I'll definitely be using the Beta version.
I'm glad some people like it, but of the half-orc fans who are excited about this, I just have to ask: if you wanted to play a race that was no bigger or stronger than humans, and also just as smart as they are, then what drew you to the half-orc race in the first place?
Part of what made half-orcs so compelling was that they were so superficially different but fundamentally human. Now that they're superficially human too...
Well said!
I just have to ask: if you wanted to play a race that was no bigger or stronger than humans, and also just as smart as they are, then what drew you to the half-orc race in the first place?
Apparently just to get darkvision while not being a dwarf?
Well, there's the whole "unruly savage" thing that they have going for them too (with which orc ferocity helps), but you could get that by playing a savage human with diehard. Every setting has at least one flavor of human barbarian; some have several.
I'm really curious about this. If you say they're still orky 'nuff for you, then what do you think it is that makes them so?
Well, there's the whole "unruly savage" thing that they have going for them too (with which orc ferocity helps), but you could get that by playing a savage human with diehard. Every setting has at least one flavor of human barbarian; some have several.
I'm really curious about this. If you say they're still orky 'nuff for you, then what do you think it is that makes them so?
What was so orcish about them before, besides being stupid and ugly? In 3.5 all they had was darkvision, +2 Strength, and ability to use the orc double axe as a martial weapon.
They've lost none of those things (if you put your +2 into Strength). They've gained orc ferocity and a bonus to Intimidate.
The only thing they've lost is penalties. If you want your "classic" half-orc, use point-buy character generation to lower Intelligence and Charisma in favor of physical attributes.
But now you can create half-orcs that favor their human side too.
Lost: penalties. Gained: flexibility.
Well, there's the whole "unruly savage" thing that they have going for them too (with which orc ferocity helps), but you could get that by playing a savage human with diehard. Every setting has at least one flavor of human barbarian; some have several.
I'm really curious about this. If you say they're still orky 'nuff for you, then what do you think it is that makes them so?
What was so orcish about them before, besides being stupid and ugly? In 3.5 all they had was darkvision, +2 Strength, and ability to use the orc double axe as a martial weapon.
They've lost none of those things (if you put your +2 into Strength). They've gained orc ferocity and a bonus to Intimidate.
The only thing they've lost is penalties. If you want your "classic" half-orc, use point-buy character generation to lower Intelligence and Charisma in favor of physical attributes.
But now you can create half-orcs that favor their human side too.
Lost: penalties. Gained: flexibility.
You dismiss penalties as "bad" and universally embrace flexibility as "good". I think this shows a real lack of insight into what actually makes games fun.
Penalties contribute more to the flavor of a mechanic than bonuses do. Being dumb was a HUGE part of orc identity, ESPECIALLY for those who played against type by playing clever orcs.Likewise, "+2 strength" is much more evocative than "+2 to one ability score". "+2 strength" suggests a strong race; "+2 to anything" suggests an adaptable race.
Yes, orcs can be stronger or dumber depending on where they put their scores, but so can humans. The whole idea that halforcs are stronger or less intelligent has been flushed.
More flexible isn't always cooler. If it was, we wouldn't use classes or races at all.
Because the idea that flexibility is innately and unconditionally good has a lot of pull with posters here, I think I should defend my case a little further.
But now you can create half-orcs that favor their human side too.
Lost: penalties. Gained: flexibility.
The thing is, 90% of the time, you could do the same thing in 3.5.
It's incredibly easy to make a half-orc who isn't particularly strong, or who is unusually smart or likable. In fact, virtually every orc character that I've seen did one of the three. And the fact that they were "friendly for an orc", or "awful clever for a one-tusk", or even "not as strong as I would've thought" greatly contributed to the character's charm in all cases.
That's the power of playing against type. The naked truth is that, in this game, half the reason we create stereotypes is so that we can have a jolly time knocking them over.
And that flexibility is assuming you want to play a half-orc in the first place (after all, you can always play a feral human or elf or whatever: if you want a half-orc it's because you've CHOSEN that race, because you like the flavor and/or the mechanics. And here's another secret: the mechanics contribute at least as much to a race's flavor as the descriptive bits).
With all those layers of flexibility, encoding even MORE flexibility into the race is just redundant. It's a trick you only need to pull once or twice (with the human and possibly the half-elf).
Flexibility/flavor is a sliding scale. Make things too flexible and they give you lots of freedom (i.e a classless system), but at the expense of all those "class" and "race" entries which so inspire the imagination. Make things too restricting and you get very strong archetypes and evocative rules, but you're also too constrained to build your own character, and that's no fun.
But I digress. Like I said, I think the main thing that makes a half-orc a half-orc (at least in play and in player perception) is that they're stronger but dumber (and uglier) than humans.
What is it for you? Is the darkvision really that big a deal?
I think in some ways you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Your argument about making a character against type is true in reverse - you can still very much make a half-orc to type. Whether by point buy or by dice roll it's still completely plausible to have a dumb and ugly half-orc.
But why mandate that the half-orc be dumb and ugly?
Because if I choose to play a half-orc I want that restriction. If I didn't, I would play something else.
If races weren't restrictive, there would only be one race.
Further, as I said, you aren't actually "mandating" anything with ability mods or bonuses. And likewise, the fact that you CAN build a dumb and ugly half orc is irrelevant; half the time I don't want to play that anyway, and will spend a 14 to have a 12 CHA or INT.
I'm assuming you did read my last post and just didn't get/agree with it? I could go into greater detail concerning why we use ability mods and what conceptual weight they carry, but that would be making an Olympus Mons out of a mountain. ~^
You dismiss penalties as "bad" and universally embrace flexibility as "good". I think this shows a real lack of insight into what actually makes games fun.
Penalties contribute more to the flavor of a mechanic than bonuses do. Being dumb was a HUGE part of orc identity, ESPECIALLY for those who played against type by playing clever orcs.
You have such a great ability to articulate meaning. This is exactly what I believe, but can not articulate it nearly as well.
Lol! I read it. I just didn't agree with it.
But...we can agree to disagree because its a matter of personal preference in this case.
And ultimately we've got what we got. Maybe Paizo will give us an "Orcish Upbringing" trait or something to recapture the classic half-orc of yore.
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for game balance reasons I support the new half orc ( was there any other cleric or druid option in alpha, i dont think so) +2 STR and WIS was too powerful. The bonus to intimidate is very iconic (why are all halfling scarier than half orcs?)
The description does scream +2STR -2 CHA, why are they bigger if they are not stronger? but the description for Gnomes screams CG alignment not NG so nothings perfect
But...we can agree to disagree because its a matter of personal preference in this case.
Yup! That's as true as ever.
Really, I'm not even annoyed by this because race is such an easy thing to change. Half the time my setting calls for me to rewrite half the races ANYWAY, no matter how good the original was.
Gnomes are stubborn and persistent as all heck; why do you think, of all the fey races, they're the ones who choose to forge bonds and carve a place for themselves in the world of the living? I think that the fey call has weeded out many of the chaotic ones; they're off hanging out with the fairies now, leaving the more stalwart gnomes behind.
Occorse, I say this as someone who is introducing several other fairy races and has had to define his gnomes in contrast to them.
I do agree that beta half-orcs made darned good clerics and druids (possibly too good). But then, that's kind of true of dwarves even now.
Oh you smart and lovely half-orcs!
They are lovely now... So that is why they got raped.
I waited until I read the book. Now I am allowed to say that Half-orcs got shafted in the "upgrade."
Lets compare:
Attribute:
Half-elves, half-orcs, and humans all get +2 to one attribute of choice.
Advantage/Disadvantage: Even.
Size:
All three are medium.
Advantage/Disadvantage: Even.
Speed:
All three are normal (30').
Advantage/Disadvantage: Even.
{b}Feats[/b]:
Humans get 1 bonus feat, no further restrictions.
Half-elves get 1 bonus feat, Skill focus that has many choices.
Half-orcs get none.
Advantage/Disadvantage: While it is likely the Human will be given the advantage, it is clear the Half-orc gets the disadvantage.
Skills:
Half-elves and Half-orcs get +2 to one specific skill.
Humans get +1 rank / level.
Advantage/Disadvantage: Likely go to the Human... But the others are contenders.
Languages:
All get Common.
Half-elves and Half-orcs get their half breed heritage language as well.
Advantage/Disadvantage: YMMV. A lot of games I've seen, language hardly plays a factor. I'd call this even, with the caveat that it depends on the individual game.
Racial Blood:
Half-elves and Half-orcs get the half breed racial blood "type."
Advantage/Disadvantage: YMMV. I haven't seen much interaction on this rule. Very few, non-artifact, items even use this mechanic... And even those are usually written with a flavor of fairly rare existence. I'd call this even, with the caveat that it depends on the individual game.
Weapon Familiarity:
Half-orcs get proficiency in Great Axe's and Falcions plus any weapon with orc in the title are counted as martial.
Advantage/Disadvantage: YMMV. It really depends on the character. "Most" characters that will get use out of this already have proficiency in Great Axe and Falchion, and (for now) the orc double axe is the only weapon to get this benefit. The characters that don't already have the proficiencies, aren't likely to be the ones using them. Clerics, sure. But the other non-warrior classes? Not so likely. Advantage still goes to the Half-orc, but only marginally at best.
Vision:
Humans have standard vision.
Half-elves have low-light vision.
Half-orcs have darkvision.
Advantage/Disadvantage: This one is a bit difficult to call. Since Darkvision is a 2nd level spell, it means that it isn't unreasonable to expect any character to have it - if they want it. At least for a few rounds. In a low magic game, or at lower levels Darkvision is a clear advantage. I'll give the advantage to Half-orcs for fairness, but I don't buy it as a real advantage.
Special Abilities:
Half-orcs get orc ferocity, and Half-elves get elven immunities AND multitalented.
Advantage/Disadvantage: I'd have to go to the Half-elf here. While it could be said that immunity to magical sleep effects and a +2 save verses enchantments, plus a bonus that only occurs if you multi-class are not that useful, I feel the same is to be said for orc ferocity. YMMV, but mechanically, the advantage has to go to the Half-elves.
Since they are all "fair" in appearance, there is no reason for you to NOT take Human or Half-elf and call the character descendant from orcs.
That leaves only the mechanicals to separate them.
Need Darkvision or proficiency with Great Axe and Falchion with no other way to get it - go Half-orc.
Expect to spend an unhealthy amount of time bellow zero HPs - go Half-orc.
Yay for the Half-orc upgrade. They are no longer picked on, but at the expense of any real reason to pick them beyond flavor. Flavor you could spread all over a Human or Hal-elf and get better mechanics out of it.
(All data taken from the PRD.)
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It should be noted that Darkvision is now more useful, as it explicity works in the confines of a Darkness spell (though not Deeper Darkness). I think you do half-orcs a disservice by dismissing darkvision so readily; spells are not available to everyone, and I have never, ever seen a character prep the Darkvision spell, nor buy a potion of darkvision.
Weapon Familiarity:
Half-orcs get proficiency in Great Axe's and Falcions plus any weapon with orc in the title are counted as martial.
Advantage/Disadvantage: YMMV. It really depends on the character. "Most" characters that will get use out of this already have proficiency in Great Axe and Falchion, and (for now) the orc double axe is the only weapon to get this benefit. The characters that don't already have the proficiencies, aren't likely to be the ones using them. Clerics, sure. But the other non-warrior classes? Not so likely. Advantage still goes to the Half-orc, but only marginally at best.
Depends. I have a Half-Orc Rogue using a Great Axe. It is a wonderful Backstabbing weapon, b.t.w. ;D
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Who's restricted? I played what I wanted to play.Apparently the older versions you didn't play.
I'm talking like 1st and 2nd editions of the "world's oldest role-playing game."
That's funny, I could almost swear I'm playing a Half-orc Fighter/Assassin in a first edition game now. But since you pointed out that I haven't played that game it must not be true...
In any case Mechanically comparing 3.x with 1st or 2nd edition is apples and oranges.
Yeah I think this was a poor change as well. No flavor to having the same stats as humans and half-elves. +2 str, + 2 wis, and -2 int were pretty representitive of the race, +2 any one stat...not so much so.
Depends. I have a Half-Orc Rogue using a Great Axe. It is a wonderful Backstabbing weapon, b.t.w. ;DWeapon Familiarity:
Half-orcs get proficiency in Great Axe's and Falcions plus any weapon with orc in the title are counted as martial.
Advantage/Disadvantage: YMMV. It really depends on the character. "Most" characters that will get use out of this already have proficiency in Great Axe and Falchion, and (for now) the orc double axe is the only weapon to get this benefit. The characters that don't already have the proficiencies, aren't likely to be the ones using them. Clerics, sure. But the other non-warrior classes? Not so likely. Advantage still goes to the Half-orc, but only marginally at best.
Plus Hand of the Apprentice hits a lot harder with a greataxe than a dagger. ^_-
Who's restricted? I played what I wanted to play.Apparently the older versions you didn't play.
I'm talking like 1st and 2nd editions of the "world's oldest role-playing game."
In first edition half-orcs couldn't be barbarians, no non-human could be.
Even with +2 str, + 2 wis, -2 int you could be a wizard if you liked, or a bard and certainly a fine rogue if that was your goal. Stat adjustments guild they don't restrict. If you want to play against the grain and make a half-orc wizard you can, but you start off a little weaker then if you chose human, but that's the glory of it. If you started the same it wouldn't be against the grain at all, the idea of being special is gone when there is no challenge to doing it.
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Who's restricted? I played what I wanted to play.Apparently the older versions you didn't play.
I'm talking like 1st and 2nd editions of the "world's oldest role-playing game."
That's funny, I could almost swear I'm playing a Half-orc Fighter/Assassin in a first edition game now. But since you pointed out that I haven't played that game it must not be true...
In any case Mechanically comparing 3.x with 1st or 2nd edition is apples and oranges.
Okay, fine. I guest you didn't want to be a half-orc cavalier, paladin, druid, barbarian (wow), ranger, magic-user, illusionist, monk, or bard in 1st edition. Maybe if you had you would have known what I was talking about. The point was that we no longer have list of which race can be which class, so what's wrong with pushing them a little bit more towards human and a bit less towards orc?
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Who's restricted? I played what I wanted to play.Apparently the older versions you didn't play.
I'm talking like 1st and 2nd editions of the "world's oldest role-playing game."
That's funny, I could almost swear I'm playing a Half-orc Fighter/Assassin in a first edition game now. But since you pointed out that I haven't played that game it must not be true...
In any case Mechanically comparing 3.x with 1st or 2nd edition is apples and oranges.
Okay, fine. I guest you didn't want to be a half-orc cavalier, paladin, druid, barbarian (wow), ranger, magic-user, illusionist, monk, or bard in 1st edition. Maybe if you had you would have known what I was talking about. The point was that we no longer have list of which race can be which class, so what's wrong with pushing them a little bit more towards human and a bit less towards orc?
Dude, go ahead and stop now while you only sound like a partial twit.
You know what? Statistically speaking Roagh comes out ahead as a Rogue because I can assign that +2 to Dex. That's cool... But I could have done the EXACT same thing with two other races. That's lame and repetitive.
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Dude, go ahead and stop now while you only sound like a partial twit.
You know what? Statistically speaking Roagh comes out ahead as a Rogue because I can assign that +2 to Dex. That's cool... But I could have done the EXACT same thing with two other races. That's lame and repetitive.
Ignoring your first comment, how about the simple fact that two of those three races are composed of approximately one-half of the third race? How do you propose we present that mechanically then?
Half-orcs and Half-elves are both half-human after all.
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I think I'll be keeping +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int Half-orcs in my home games, it just feels right. +2 to one ability feels right for Humans or Half-elves, but not Half-orcs.
The only reason I could see justifyiing +2 to one ability for Half-orcs, is if Paizo revised full-blood orcs from +4 Str to +2 Str to bring it more in line with +2 +2 -2 ability standard for player races.
I'm not expecting this to be the case, but there were a vocal number on the playtest boards calling for orcs to replace half-orcs as a core race, and as we haven't seen any Bestiary preview of Orc yet, it can't be dismissed outright.
Orcs would replace Half-Orcs role as the race with a +2 Str modifier, demoting Half-orc to +2 to one ability, and those wanting to replace the Half-orc with Orcs as a core race in their campaigns could do so with ease.
I always found it somewhat borderline to have a player race receive a -2 penalty to intelligence. We have orcs which can have offspring with humans (although I'm not sure if they are sterile or not). And this offspring is naturaly more stupid than regular humans. Not because of their chaotic nature and culture but because they have inferior genes or something. If this were 2 different human races the internets would be on fire.... but then again I've found that trying to apply real world stuff to D&D often ends in scratched heads.
1st Edition half-orcs were really slanted towards the assassin class, and had the flavor of Tolkien's half-orcs, specifically mentioning that, while half-orcs tend to be ugly, PC half-orcs usually come from the percentage of half-orcs that can pass for ugly humans (a la Grima Wormtongue).
Interestingly, the Pathfinder half-orc, coupled with the Veiled Vileness feat, can model both the half-orc that looks more like their orc side, and the percentage that can pass for human.
I understand that this doesn't map perfectly with the 3.5 half-orc, but it is inclusive of the overall D&D picture of half-orcs. It was only 3rd edition that pushed half-orcs as "near orc" barbarians.
That having been said, yeah, I kind of miss strength, for example, being a given, due to the natural build and default appearance of the half-orc. Then again, most dwarves are shown with bulging biceps without a racial bonus to strength, so, hey, maybe its not so bad.
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The only reason I could see justifyiing +2 to one ability for Half-orcs, is if Paizo revised full-blood orcs from +4 Str to +2 Str to bring it more in line with +2 +2 -2 ability standard for player races.
You know, that's damn fine point to make. We don't know what Pathfinder RPG orcs are going to look like unlike elves and humans. They might very well be a bit different from what people know from 3.5.
Should be interesting to see.