Too heavy - a cry for a down-sized PFRPG

[Samothdm]

I think my previous post got too long and "preachy" so a lot of people probably skipped it.

But, I still stick by the idea that I don't believe the Pathfinder RPG is a gateway game, nor should it be. It's really a game for experienced gamers, most of whom were probably playing 3.5. The fact that the book is too heavy or too long or has too many chapters or whatever is irrelevant. It's not a good game for people who are brand new to the hobby and who are trying to learn to play an RPG by themselves (i.e., without an experienced friend to help them).

If you start stripping stuff out of the Pathfinder book in order to make it more "newbie-friendly", then what you have is really a different game, and that creates confusion. It's kind of like "Basic D&D" versus "Advanced D&D" in the 1E days. You didn't progress from one to the other - they were completely different systems (albeit, somewhat alike). It created a lot of confusion on the part of costumers.

I think the best idea for an entry-type game would really be a completely different, stripped-down system that did away with things like alignment, maybe only has four classes, no "half-races", etc., and reduces all of the options (no choosing your feats and skills - you just get them automatically depending on level).

BUT... I still don't know if this is Paizo's responsibility. Should they be responsible for trying to bring new, younger gamers into the hobby with a different version of the game? It's a huge (and expensive) under-taking, and I just don't see random people buying an "Introductory Pathfinder RPG" game set off the shelf when they've never played an RPG before, even if it does look easy. They're much more likely to buy the same thing offered by WotC because it has the "Dungeons & Dragons" brand name associated with it.

I think the better idea would be to rely on Paizo fans and the community of local game stores to set up "Learn to Play" days, and advertise them at local schools or what not. Kind of like the 4E Worldwide Game Day, where you show up and the GM hands you a character sheet and explains to you what to do. That's something that you can learn even if you've never played an RPG before in your life.

THEN, hopefully the person gets hooked and buys the core book later.

I'm simplifying my thoughts because this post is getting too long again. Hopefully you all get the idea.

[Krome]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Krome wrote:

well as a player, I want to know the rules as they apply to me.

Look at the Chapters

1: Getting Started- every player needs that chapter...

11: Prestige Classes- every player needs that chapter
12: Gamemastering- NOT every player needs that chapter
13: Environment- every player needs that chapter
14: Creating NPCs- NOT every player needs that chapter
15: Magic Items- every player needs that chapter

Krome, you make a good point, in general, but:

Chapter 11: Prestige Classes are options the GM allows or not. Why should the players need that?

Chapter 13: That's stuff that's handled by the GM, same as statistics for goblins and trolls.

Chapter 15: That's also DM stuff.

Yes?

All of the classes and races are GM allowed or not. Prestige Classes are no exception. If players do not know what is available or possible they cannot ask.

Environment is certainly not GM stuff. If my Fighter is going to go to Osirion in the summer and going to pass out from the heat in the plate armor I'd like to know about it before the GM gleefully giggles and kills me off. If I'm going to be fighting in the snow I'd like to know my options just like regular combat.

Magic items are no more GM exclusive than equipment. You get a wondrous item, you want to know how it works. You go into a magic shop, I doubt the GM wants to make a specific list of what is available an hand t to you every time and explain what every single item does so you can do your shopping.

To me those are areas that are BOTH GM and Player oriented. The GM may decide what items are available, but then he has to do that for mundane equipment too, or if you are fighting in a lava pit, but then he decides location and peculiarities of all fights, and while the GM may limit what Prestige Classes are available, they do that for all classes and races as well.

So, I wouldn't limit those sections to GMs only any more than I would limit Two-Handed Weapons, Heavy Armor, Combat Maneuvers or Monk, Bard, or Ranger to a DMG. I think every player, once they read those sections will become better players.

[jreyst]

I'd be willing to invest time in something along these lines as long as I had other people to bounce ideas off of who were as committed to the idea as I. If anyone is interested post a comment on the d20pfsrd.com messageboard (id required). I'll discuss with anyone who is interested in this.

[Pax Veritas]

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Real Role-playing He-men (and She-women) want that big book, and will accept no wimpy little substitutes!

;)

Huzzah!

[jreyst]

jreyst wrote:

I'd be willing to invest time in something along these lines as long as I had other people to bounce ideas off of who were as committed to the idea as I. If anyone is interested post a comment on the d20pfsrd.com messageboard (id required). I'll discuss with anyone who is interested in this.

Correction. I created a new section I titled PF-Lite. If you want to talk about it feel free to come on by. It's over here.

[HeyJim]

Mikaze wrote:

I strongly support looking into a basic set for new gamers.

But I also beg Paizo not to throw in audio CD's like TSR did for one of the later starter boxes(and the Glantri box). Oh MAN if you could have heard the acting in those...

Wow! Those WERE bad! But the Midnight Syndicate RPG Soundtrack wasn't anything like that old thing. If Paizo did something similar (or, knowing Paizo, something even better!), it could be a definite asset.

[jdh417]

Here’s a suggestion for a smaller, less complicated version of Pathfinder. Put it in a Conan-like, low-magic setting. This should make it fairly easy to relate to for beginners. Even Lord of the Rings was low-magic compared to a typical D&D campaign.

Make all the PC’s human. If there has to be demi-humans, just make them minor variations in ability scores, without special abilities. Limit the classes to fighters, rouges, wizards, and clerics. Drop feats and skills, except for a very limited set that are class specific, with their effectiveness increasing with level. (Sidebar: give rouges a “sixth sense” ability to detect traps, ambushes, and secrets to make them very useful to the party.)

Spells are determined from choosing from a limited number of schools or domains. Spellcasters will have a small range of “at-will” and daily powers granted by their choice, which will increase in potency with level. (Essentially 4e, but it’s simple.) By the same token, limit monsters to only one or two special abilities.

Drop all discussion of Alignment. Simplify the XP system to be adventure, goal, or quest based. (Somewhat arbitrary, little math is required.) Make up a general set of rules to cover common situations, such as grapple, non-standard combat maneuvers, tracking, hiding, etc. And have the rules cover up to level 14, the same as the Adventure Paths, to keep things from getting too complex.

Insofar as Paizo having the resources to create some sort of “Basic” game, I do seem to remember that Jason started working on Pathfinder in his spare time.

[Asgetrion]

Pax Veritas wrote:

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Real Role-playing He-men (and She-women) want that big book, and will accept no wimpy little substitutes!

;)

Huzzah!

... and up Princess Anne!

(Don't know what that means, but it's what the Pett always says; I *do* know who Princess Anne is, though)

[Richard III]

Google only finds Pett saying it. I demand an explanation, and it better be patriotic.

[jreyst]

I started a google site for hashing out some ideas here.

If you'd like to have edit rights to that site just email me.

[Samothdm]

jdh417 wrote:

Insofar as Paizo having the resources to create some sort of “Basic” game, I do seem to remember that Jason started working on Pathfinder in his spare time.

I don't necessarily think it's an issue of resources in terms of "people." I think it's an issue of resources in terms of:

1) It will probably have a smaller print-run
2) They most likely will not recoup their print costs (the print-run will probably not be enough to help the print-costs break even)
3) They'll need to get retailers to understand how this new version is not going to cannibalize sales from their core rulebook

Honestly, I just don't see it paying-out. But, I'm clearly in the minority on this thread.

I think printing out individual sheets from the PDF is probably the easiest, and most economical way, to go about this, versus spending the time and money to create a whole new "rules lite" version. But, that's just me.

[jreyst]

Samothdm wrote:

Honestly, I just don't see it paying-out. But, I'm clearly in the minority on this thread.

Especially when its something that can easily be done by the fan community.

[Sebastian]

I skipped to the end of the thread when the first page turned into a bunch of rude a+!&&%~ry, so I apologize if this has been already suggested, but it seems to me that the ideal format for a slimmed down book would be to cut those portions which were previously in the DMG. I don't have my copy in front of me to see how big of a difference that would make, so it may not be enough, but that seems the logical starting point.

I leave the details of the logistics to the good folks at Paizo. I have neither the data nor the arrogance to attempt to make guesstimates of my own on the feasibility of such a product.

[Mairkurion {tm}]

Is asshattery getting censored now?

EDIT: Oh, good.

[jdh417]

Honestly, I think Paizo is actually leaving money on the table by not printing a starter/rules-lite booklet. WOTC doesn't care about selling D&D the Rules anywhere near as much as they want to sell D&D the Brand. Paizo needs to think in those terms when selling their own goods.

I like the idea of collaborative fan rules, but it's going to be very hard to reach any sort of concensus, since one fan's opinion is as valid as any other's. Ideally, you'd want to deconstruct the rules down to a minimal base, and then allow other subsystems to be optionally added to a playing group's tastes. I am not a 3e expert, which is one of the reasons why I'd like a simplier set of 3e rules.

By the way, my low-magic/Conan suggestion wasn't advocating a style of play, so much as just giving a good excuse to chop down the number spells to lower the page count.

[LazarX]

alleynbard wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

I strongly support looking into a basic set for new gamers.

But I also beg Paizo not to throw in audio CD's like TSR did for one of the later starter boxes(and the Glantri box). Oh MAN if you could have heard the acting in those...

I agree! It was almost insulting how bad those were.

If the voice acting was done by the actual TSR staff, that I could see. Actually that'd make those items bad in a sort of cult way. :)

[jreyst]

I agree that consensus might be hard but I'd like to at least give it a shot. I've DM'd Castles & Crusades and played D&D since the early 80's so I thimk I have a decent grasp of both the history of D&D and an understanding of lite rules systems.

Check out what I have so far and feel free to comment either here or on the messageboard I started for discussing this PF-Lite as I'm referring to it.

[cpt_machine]

You all are missing the point, after years of poor diets and exercise Piazo wants us fighting fit, lifting the book for every rule clarification is like 10 push ups, you get fit while gaming... genious.

[Doodpants]

I'm surprised no one here has mentioned GURPS Lite as a model for what Paizo could do. GURPS Lite is a 32-page distillation of the basic GURPS rules, available as a free downloadable PDF. They also have a printed booklet version that you can order from them, and which I've seen in the past in at least one FLGS, again for free.

I can envision a scenario in which an experienced roleplayer wants to run a game of Pathfinder for a group of novice players, so he gets a copy of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for himself, and hands out copies of "Pathfinder Lite" to the other players to get them started. As they get comfortable with the game, some of the players eventually decide to get their own copy of the full rulebook.

Of course, I don't know if it's feasible to get Pathfinder shrunk down to 32 pages. As other people have suggested, you'd probably have to limit the available classes and/or only cover the first few levels of each class.

[bugleyman]

I think a Pathfinder: Basic would rock.
*
*
*
*
Levels 1-4 of:
-------
Fighter
Rogue
Cleric
Sorceror

* 0, 1st and 2nd level spells, folded in with the cleric and sorceror entries.

* Greatly trimmed magic items (what a level 4 char might hope to get, or even just teasers. Level 1-4 would work fine with just masterwork stuff and a few +1 items.

* Cut-down combat (remove all the CMB/CMD stuff; toss swift actions.

* Trimmed own feats, obviously removing anything folks can't qualify for, but also pulling stuff like metamagic, etc.

* Remove prestige classes, favored class, multi-classing, sorceror bloodlines, cleric domains, etc.

Basically, it should be a subset of the rules, but remain fully compatible. Shoot for a 64 page, full-color book that sells for $9.99, with the PDF being free.

[Drakli]

This is by no means a trivialization of the original poster's thoughts on the topic. I, myself, have yet to really, seriously sit down to read the final rulebook because I'm actually kind of intimidated by the task. I can imagine what a new gamer might think. Heck, I've got a long-term gamer in one of my groups who could use a "lite" version because tracking the rules complexities get to him.

That said, if you have the PDF, you could print just the stuff you need to carry around as a DM/Player (by page selection from the printing window,) then stick the sheets into plastic sleeves and put them into a 3-ring binder, and you're good to go. Cheap, abridged version.

I'm not saying Paizo shouldn't put out a Pathfinder "Redbox," just offering a stopgap for while you wait.

[cpt_machine]

jreyst wrote:

I agree that consensus might be hard but I'd like to at least give it a shot. I've DM'd Castles & Crusades and played D&D since the early 80's so I thimk I have a decent grasp of both the history of D&D and an understanding of lite rules systems.

Check out what I have so far and feel free to comment either here or on the messageboard I started for discussing this PF-Lite as I'm referring to it.

I would seek permission from Paizo before publishing such a document, this goes to all those above who have had the same idea, if your going to use the Pathfinder name you really need to ask the owners of that name, even if your just sticking it on your own website for people to download and uploading it to Lulu.com is a massive no-no.

If you want to make your own rules and classes thats cool, you just to need to make sure you include the open gaming licence legal stuff at the back.

[Drakli]

Krome wrote:

Environment is certainly not GM stuff. If my Fighter is going to go to Osirion in the summer and going to pass out from the heat in the plate armor I'd like to know about it before the GM gleefully giggles and kills me off. If I'm going to be fighting in the snow I'd like to know my options just like regular combat.

Personally (just saying,) I'd prefer to have a DM who'd say, "You know, heat exhaustion, might not want to do that," rather than giggle happily at killing me off with the sun... which creates an amusing exchange in my head.

DM1 brags: I got a total party kill last week!

DM2: Awesome! What monsters did you use?

DM1: The SUN.

DM2: Hardcore...

[Herald]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Krome wrote:

well as a player, I want to know the rules as they apply to me.

Look at the Chapters

1: Getting Started- every player needs that chapter...

11: Prestige Classes- every player needs that chapter
12: Gamemastering- NOT every player needs that chapter
13: Environment- every player needs that chapter
14: Creating NPCs- NOT every player needs that chapter
15: Magic Items- every player needs that chapter

Krome, you make a good point, in general, but:

Chapter 11: Prestige Classes are options the GM allows or not. Why should the players need that?

Chapter 13: That's stuff that's handled by the GM, same as statistics for goblins and trolls.

Chapter 15: That's also DM stuff.

Yes?

Don't agree on the chapter 13 environment issue. Pleanty of good info for players.

[Herald]

bugleyman wrote:

I think a Pathfinder: Basic would rock.

*
*
*
*
Levels 1-4 of:
-------
Fighter
Rogue
Cleric
Sorceror

* 0, 1st and 2nd level spells, folded in with the cleric and sorceror entries.

* Greatly trimmed magic items (what a level 4 char might hope to get, or even just teasers. Level 1-4 would work fine with just masterwork stuff and a few +1 items.

* Cut-down combat (remove all the CMB/CMD stuff; toss swift actions.

* Trimmed own feats, obviously removing anything folks can't qualify for, but also pulling stuff like metamagic, etc.

* Remove prestige classes, favored class, multi-classing, sorceror bloodlines, cleric domains, etc.

Basically, it should be a subset of the rules, but remain fully compatible. Shoot for a 64 page, full-color book that sells for $9.99, with the PDF being free.

I get were you are coming from, but I'd hate to see PF head down a three tier system like 4e. I'm not trying to start a version war, or saying that is what your suggesting, but still I'd keep closer to the full rule set.

Keep CMB, swift actions and keep the classes as is, remove anything that would be over 4th level, and perhaps box with PFS type adventures (short and sweet).

Here is what I would consider a good idea as well. How about an adventure that explained combat as you went through it. That would be a good product that could stand on it's own.

[stonechild]

DarkWhite wrote:

Now that the full version has been released, is there any chance a down-sized version of the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook could be added to the production schedule as a matter of priority?

I've suggested many times for a down-sized version for containing only the rules relevant for 1st to 3rd (or perhaps 5th?) level for new players.

a) not so daunting for new players;
b) more affordable birthday/christmas gift;

but now that I have jut picked up my own copy of the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook, I have to say as beautiful and all-encompassing as it is, it's just too darned heavy! Have Paizo customer service department started processing the repetitive strain injury claims yet? I was struggling to read this on public transport on my way back from the store due to the sheer weight, and I know it's going to be a beast to use in-game.

Not wanting to detract from the sheer awesomeness that is Pathfinder RPG, but

c) please give us a lite edition for those occasions we don't need to break our wrists supporting the full tome.

Thanks,
DarkWhite

To quote Herger in the 13th Warrior, "grow stonger".

[Gamer Girrl]

Herald wrote:

I get were you are coming from, but I'd hate to see PF head down a three tier system like 4e. I'm not trying to start a version war, or saying that is what your suggesting, but still I'd keep closer to the full rule set.

Keep CMB, swift actions and keep the classes as is, remove anything that would be over 4th level, and perhaps box with PFS type adventures (short and sweet).

Here is what I would consider a good idea as well. How about an adventure that explained combat as you went through it. That would be a good product that could stand on it's own.

I wouldn't much be interested in a "rules" lite version that left out major chunks of the book. The rules lite ones I've seen that work have left out the art (or most of it), and the color, and gone to a somewhat smaller typeface. But I really wouldn't use 'em, I prefer the actual book, since the page numbers match up with the book that the GM is using.

I like Herald's idea of an intro adventure that you learn as you go. The only information would be some mini-booklets that are for each of the four pregen characters, and have the information that those folks need to play those characters. You would state that there is more options and possibilities with other races, classes, levels, but if the adventure stops at level three, so does the info.

That way you've given a taste of the world, the rules and the how to, without dumming it down or skimping on the gorgeousness of the Tome.

[jreyst]

Someone else recommended removing the name Pathfinder from this subset of fan-created rules. I agree, that is probably a good idea. I will change it to simply be PF-Lite instead.

bugleyman wrote:

Levels 1-4 of:
-------
Fighter
Rogue
Cleric
Sorceror

While I think sorcerer is probably an easier class to play its not one of the four classic iconic classes. I'd replace sorcerer with wizard.

bugleyman wrote:

* Greatly trimmed magic items (what a level 4 char might hope to get, or even just teasers. Level 1-4 would work fine with just masterwork stuff and a few +1 items.

Completely agree on trimming down the magic items list. Include some simple items ("plus" weapons and armor) and some other less complex (yet interesting) items.

I will also greatly reduce the spell lists down to no more than 10-12 spells of each level.

bugleyman wrote:

* Cut-down combat (remove all the CMB/CMD stuff; toss swift actions.

In the version I am envisioning the system is meant as an introduction to the full rule system, with the intention of diverting people to the full rules once they've either mastered or grown bored with this limited subset. With that said, I think its important to include as many of the "core components" of Pathfinder as possible, so as to actually familiarize people with them. Not that the mechanics need to be 100% fully implemented, but at least the main things that separate PF from 3.5 should be there, otherwise this is just another stripped down 3.5 clone.

bugleyman wrote:

* Trimmed own feats, obviously removing anything folks can't qualify for, but also pulling stuff like metamagic, etc.

Feats and skills are interesting. Again, if this serves as an introduction to the real system then its probably beneficial to include some simplified version of both items.

bugleyman wrote:

* Remove prestige classes, favored class, multi-classing, sorceror bloodlines, cleric domains, etc.

Agreed. Multiclassing, favored class, prestige classes, bloodlines, and domains are out. Bloodlines would be out because there would be no sorcerer.

bugleyman wrote:

Basically, it should be a subset of the rules, but remain fully compatible. Shoot for a 64 page, full-color book that sells for $9.99, with the PDF being free.

I don't know about all of that. I was just thinking about making it all free online and if people want to print it out they can. If this serves to drive more business to Paizo then all the better.

[DarkWhite]

Agree with the direction this is headed, jreyst/budleyman, just a few suggestions:

jreyst wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

Levels 1-4 of: Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Sorceror

While I think sorcerer is probably an easier class to play its not one of the four classic iconic classes. I'd replace sorcerer with wizard.

If sorcerer is easier for a new player, then it's in. New players have little concept of the games history, so being one of the "four classic iconic classes" is of little significance here.

jreyst wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

* Trimmed own feats, obviously removing anything folks can't qualify for, but also pulling stuff like metamagic, etc.

Feats and skills are interesting. Again, if this serves as an introduction to the real system then its probably beneficial to include some simplified version of both items.

I think "simplified version" means different things for skills than it does feats:

Simplified skills would still contain all Pathfinder skills (which is already a condensed version of 3.5 skills) but many skill descriptions are quite lengthy covering various exceptions and circumstances, and could be simplified.

A simplified feat list would cut the number of feats available to new players, but the feats themselves would still work exactly as they do in Pathfinder. We don't want a situation where someone uses a Basic character in a Pathfinder game and told their feat doesn't work that way in the full version.

jreyst wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

* Remove prestige classes, favored class, multi-classing, sorceror bloodlines, cleric domains, etc.

While I caan see a case for excluding favoured class, a Basic character would be missing bonus hit-points or skill points if played alongside core rulebook characters.

Likewise, clerics need their domains, and sorcerers need their bloodlines. If you include a choice of two or three popular deities with their two domains already chosen, and two or three flavourful bloodlines, these are part of the appeal of cleric and sorcerer classes and shouldn't be denied for new players. Indeed, once introduced to these concepts, players will likely seek the core rulebook or other sourcebooks for varied deities/domains or bloodline options.

jreyst wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

Basically, it should be a subset of the rules, but remain fully compatible. Shoot for a 64 page, full-color book that sells for $9.99, with the PDF being free.

I don't know about all of that. I was just thinking about making it all free online and if people want to print it out they can. If this serves to drive more business to Paizo then all the better.

Fee PDF or not, there still needs to be a print version on store shelves, otherwise this isn't going to get into the hands of new players who aren't already familiar with the Paizo website. Pages of glossy colour artwork to flip through attracts curious customers. Even when recruiting new players, I prefer to gift them with a published product that will be treasured, than a pdf or print-out that will get dog-eared or neglected.

[blue_the_wolf]

The big book is good.

for a lot of gamers carrying the book is the only exercise they get.

[HaraldKlak]

blue_the_wolf wrote:

The big book is good.

for a lot of gamers carrying the book is the only exercise they get.

Kind of an impressive ressurection of a more than 3 year old thread :-)