This is probably superfluous what with a couple of people already having done maps, but what the heck: Map Math Test #2, keeping the distance between Magnimar/Seattle and the Tropic of Cancer fixed, but with no preconceived notion of where the Tropic “should” be on Golarion; what happens to the placements of the Tropic of Cancer and the Arctic Circle?
Starting measurements
*Inner Sea map (mapped area) measures 21” wide x 27.5” high
*Map scale is given as 2.25” = 240 miles (1” = 106.667 miles)
*Area shown would then be 2240 miles east-west by 3208 miles north-south
Distance from Seattle, WA (47.62 N) to actual Tropic of Cancer (23.5 N)
= 24.12 degrees of latitude (@69.04 mi/deg = 1665.24 miles; @ 180 mi/in = 9.25”)
If Magnimar = Seattle and the map scale is not changed, then Golarion’s Tropic of Cancer as before would be 9.25” south of Magnimar, running through Osirion, Thuvia and Rahadoum, just north of Azir.
Distance from Earth's Arctic Circle (66.5 N) to Seattle, WA (47.62 N)
= 18.88 degrees of latitude (@69.04 mi/deg = 1303.47 miles; @ 106.667 mi/in = 12.22”)
Golarion’s Arctic Circle would be 12.22” above Magnimar, and thus almost 5” above the flat white northernmost edge of the mapped area.
I’m not sure how closely that agrees with the first of Max Kaladin’s two maps, which shifts the Tropic north from where Wes had placed it, and the Arctic Circle off the map altogether, in order to preserve the desired correspondence between Seattle and Magnimar.
It’s probably more useful to use a solution like Max’s second map, which places the Arctic Circle conveniently at the top map edge and has the Tropic of Cancer bisecting the Mana Wastes rather than running along the northern edge.
That treatment does shift Magnimar to a point some 5 degrees north (placing it on a line either with Berlin, Amsterdam, Warsaw and The Hague or as Coridan said, Copehagen, Edinburgh and Ketchikan instead of Seattle, Budapest and Zurich.)
It also moves the Arctic Circle to a latitude 6.5 degrees (approximately 450 miles) south of where it would be on Earth.
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This is probably superfluous what with a couple of people already having done maps, but what the heck: Map Math Test #2, keeping the distance between Magnimar/Seattle and the Tropic of Cancer fixed, but with no preconceived notion of where the Tropic “should” be on Golarion; what happens to the placements of the Tropic of Cancer and the Arctic Circle?
Starting measurements
*Inner Sea map (mapped area) measures 21” wide x 27.5” high
*Map scale is given as 2.25” = 240 miles (1” = 106.667 miles)
*Area shown would then be 2240 miles east-west by 3208 miles north-south
Distance from Seattle, WA (47.62 N) to actual Tropic of Cancer (23.5 N)
= 24.12 degrees of latitude (@69.04 mi/deg = 1665.24 miles; @ 180 mi/in = 9.25”)If Magnimar = Seattle and the map scale is not changed, then Golarion’s Tropic of Cancer as before would be 9.25” south of Magnimar, running through Osirion, Thuvia and Rahadoum, just north of Azir.
Distance from Earth's Arctic Circle (66.5 N) to Seattle, WA (47.62 N)
= 18.88 degrees of latitude (@69.04 mi/deg = 1303.47 miles; @ 106.667 mi/in = 12.22”)Golarion’s Arctic Circle would be 12.22” above Magnimar, and thus almost 5” above the flat white northernmost edge of the mapped area.
I’m not sure how closely that agrees with the first of Max Kaladin’s two maps, which shifts the Tropic north from where Wes had placed it, and the Arctic Circle off the map altogether, in order to preserve the desired correspondence between Seattle and Magnimar.
It’s probably more useful to use a solution like Max’s second map, which places the Arctic Circle conveniently at the top map edge and has the Tropic of Cancer bisecting the Mana Wastes rather than running along the northern edge.
That treatment does shift Magnimar to a point some 5 degrees north (placing it on a line either with Berlin, Amsterdam, Warsaw and The Hague or as Coridan said, Copehagen, Edinburgh and Ketchikan instead of Seattle, Budapest and Zurich.)
It also moves the Arctic Circle to a latitude 6.5...
Are you able to calculate the E/W width of the map? How many degrees wide should the map be?
OMG! You are the biggest damn hero ever ever. How did you do this? Tell me this is just a simple program you have. In any case, e-mail me, there are matters to discuss.
Director of Brand Strategy
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OMG! You are the biggest damn hero ever ever. How did you do this? Tell me this is just a simple program you have. In any case, e-mail me, there are matters to discuss.
If that matter is a Golarion globe, you must contact Wes IMMEDIATELY, Krome. If it's not, contacting him would still be a good idea.
Pretty cool Krome. :)
Are you able to calculate the E/W width of the map? How many degrees wide should the map be?
Once the lines of latitude are firmly in place, we can figure that.
At the Equator, one degree of longitude equals 60 nautical miles (69.04 statute miles) but as you move north or south from there, the concentric circles of latitude shrink in circumference, so 1/360th of the circle becomes a shorter and shorter distance.
For example, it'd be about 26 statute miles per degree at the Arctic Circle, compared to the ~69 miles per degree at the Equator.
Also, that will make the longitude lines all kinds of fun to draw on the maps, because unlike the latitudes, they will have to be curved.
James, what's your opinion on using either of the Chelaxian capitols as Longitude Zero? (I'm new to the setting and don't know offhand whether they became a major sea power before or after moving the capitol from Westcrown.)Longitude Zero should probably be Absalom, since that's the city at the center of the world and all and has been around longer than anything in Cheliax.
And English mapmakers will make Jerusalem the center of the world, about five days after the world ends.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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And English mapmakers will make Jerusalem the center of the world, about five days after the world ends.James, what's your opinion on using either of the Chelaxian capitols as Longitude Zero? (I'm new to the setting and don't know offhand whether they became a major sea power before or after moving the capitol from Westcrown.)Longitude Zero should probably be Absalom, since that's the city at the center of the world and all and has been around longer than anything in Cheliax.
I don't even know what that means...
I'll take them down if Paizo wants. They'll probably come down eventually.
Nothing to see. Did you make them public?
Also, you can [ url=http.etc] the address [ /url] within the message.
I don't even know what that means...
It goes with the idea that Cheliax = roughly Reformation England. On a traditional midieval map Jerusalem is the center of the world. Absalom = city that is the center of the world = Jerusalem. For religious reasons (reformation), because they didn't feel like being off one side of the map, and because navigation is easier when you can easily travel to the prime meridian to make celestial observations, English map makers chose to put the Prime Meridian through England instead of the more historically appropriate Jerusalem.
I was reminding the line director that if Cheliax = England, there's no way a Cheliaxian map would put the Prime Meridian through another country.
Keep in mind Longitude couldn't be reliable measured at sea in the real world until the 1760's. It would probably be developed earlier in a mid to high magic fantasy setting, as an accurate chronometer is probably a zero level spell, or a fairly trivial magic item.
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I don't even know what that means...It goes with the idea that Cheliax = roughly Reformation England. On a traditional midieval map Jerusalem is the center of the world. Absalom = city that is the center of the world = Jerusalem. For religious reasons (reformation), because they didn't feel like being off one side of the map, and because navigation is easier when you can easily travel to the prime meridian to make celestial observations, English map makers chose to put the Prime Meridian through England instead of the more historically appropriate Jerusalem.
I was reminding the line director that if Cheliax = England, there's no way a Cheliaxian map would put the Prime Meridian through another country.
Keep in mind Longitude couldn't be reliable measured at sea in the real world until the 1760's. It would probably be developed earlier in a mid to high magic fantasy setting, as an accurate chronometer is probably a zero level spell, or a fairly trivial magic item.
Since the Death of Aroden, chronometers don't work right.
OMG! You are the biggest damn hero ever ever. How did you do this? Tell me this is just a simple program you have. In any case, e-mail me, there are matters to discuss.
It's actually super easy. In Google Earth you can Go to Add > Image Overlay then just drag the edges where you want.
Here is a transparent version that uses Mana Wastes as the Tropic of Cancer, the Arctic Circle as the top of the map, and Absalom as the Prime Meridian. I choose an arbitrary E/W length. I also marked the image overlay tool icon so people can figure out how to make their own.
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Jerusalem being a land-locked location not so big on the sea-navigation and thus didn't develop longitude and latitude. Absalom however is an island nation that literally is the center of all trade. Cheliax is nowhere near that influential and their navy is not the strongest as was England's. England rose to such prominence due to being an island nation.
Read Mahan's 'The Influence of Sea Power Upon History'
Also, does anyone know if the Community Map corresponds to the 8 panel (PF Campaign) map, or the 4 Panel (Gazetteer) map? I know there were some discrepancies between the two, and I'd prefer to use the more accurate one.
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http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SMK59pkwTK7DVM2y-ArOzA?feat=directlinkMap of Golarion showing Tropic of Cancer at Mana Fields and Arctic Circle at top of Map.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ubq-RdwYslTTWWj-K8DnIg?feat=directlink
Is there a reason why I can't see these? I'm using Firefox on a Mac...
I was reminding the line director that if Cheliax = England, there's no way a Cheliaxian map would put the Prime Meridian through another country.
In that case the Prime Meridian should be Augustana, the center for naval exploration well beyond the Inner Sea.The premier mapmakers/explorers of the age would likely set it to Absalom as they (The Pathfinders) have their Grand Lodge there.
And... we now have another reason to justify the repeated attempts of various countries to take over Absalom - they all want Prime real estate. :)
Is there a reason why I can't see these? I'm using Firefox on a Mac...
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SMK59pkwTK7DVM2y-ArOzA?feat=directlinkMap of Golarion showing Tropic of Cancer at Mana Fields and Arctic Circle at top of Map.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ubq-RdwYslTTWWj-K8DnIg?feat=directlink
Not a Mac issue. I think he forgot to make them public. Or he decided to meet the Community Use policy before putting them up.
Cool thread guys!!
I was reminding the line director that if Cheliax = England, there's no way a Cheliaxian map would put the Prime Meridian through another country.Keep in mind Longitude couldn't be reliable measured at sea in the real world until the 1760's. It would probably be developed earlier in a mid to high magic fantasy setting, as an accurate chronometer is probably a zero level spell, or a fairly trivial magic item.
You're probably right about the ease of doing it magically, but I'd been thinking it would be interesting to tie accurate longitude to Cheliax as something their patron devils might have given them to help make them the preeminent sea power. How well that fits with established canon I have no idea; as I mentioned before I'm new to the setting and haven't done the immersion reading.
I had mentioned in an earlier post that Cheliax was closer to Greenwich than Absalom would be, if it would be desirable to use a familiar Earth location, but both Chelaxian capitals would probably correspond to somewhere in Spain rather than England, so that really didn't make much sense now that I think of it.
There's no reason a Chelaxian sea power wouldn't want the Prime Meridian set in another country, as long as their people have ready access to the location. English astronomers needed a nearby point they could use to check and catalog the positions of stars, they couldn't go running off the Jerusalem all the time.
If Absalom is easily accessible to those Chelaxians who need it, and particularly if Asmodeus's long range plans for Cheliax had at some point in the past included the construction of a Chelaxian-controlled observatory in Absalom -- oh, purely for academic purposes, no political power to be gained from stargazing, oh no --
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It seems likely to me that if a map is made in Cheliax, the Prime Meridian goes through Egorian, but if a map is made in Taldor the Prime Meridian goes through Oppara. Qadira... well they might put it through Katheer but more likely put the Prime through whatever is the capitol of the Padishah Empire.
Nearly everyone else would run it through Absalom.
I think it likely even Osirion mapmakers would put the Prine through Absalom.
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particularly if Asmodeus's long range plans for Cheliax had at some point in the past included the construction of a Chelaxian-controlled observatory in Absalom -- oh, purely for academic purposes, no political power to be gained from stargazing, oh no --Wow! That is just poetry! What a fantastic idea!
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Director of Brand Strategy
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It seems likely to me that if a map is made in Cheliax, the Prime Meridian goes through Egorian, but if a map is made in Taldor the Prime Meridian goes through Oppara. Qadira... well they might put it through Katheer but more likely put the Prime through whatever is the capitol of the Padishah Empire.
Nearly everyone else would run it through Absalom.
I think it likely even Osirion mapmakers would put the Prine through Absalom.
In the end, though, where one starts counting longitude doesn't matter quite as much as counting latitude. There's an obvious maximum circumference which defines the equator. But every line of longitude is the same length and the cycle of sun rising and setting means that where the Prime Meridian and IDL are can be moved around however you want. Neither of these things has any effect on climate or seasons like latitude does.
I'm not sure that Absalom would be a centre of mapping, given that it seems to have a history of being a fairly passive realm lacking in ambitions of the sort of expansionistic empire-building that might require detailed knowledge of the locations and interiors of other countries for the purposes of conquering and then ruling them. Why else might it need maps? Trade? Well did captains from Absalom (prior to PFS) navigate the world, or did the Absalom merchants just wait for traders from around the Inner Sea to 'come to market at the place where gods are born'?
Information is a commodity; even if natives of Absalom never made a map themselves, they could become a central library for maps just by acquiring copies of them from visiting traders.
If Absalom did have a long term history of maps, I would expect the lines to be defined by those charts handed down from the Azlanti empire by their forefathers, that would presumably put Longitude 0 somewhere in their (now long lost) capital out in the Arcadian ocean.
Any surviving Azlanti maps probably would do so, but such a location for Longitude 0 wouldn't be useful now (except, as you point out, for possibly finding sunken ruins), so they'd have to relocate it to some more easily accessible place.
In theory, the placement of Longitude 0 is entirely arbitrary and can be anywhere you like; in practice, it needs to be easily accessed because you need to be able to check local time at that point when setting the clock for your longitude-tracking device (aka "sea clock"); longitude is determined by figuring the difference between local (ship's) time and the time shown on the sea clock (the current time at Longitude 0; every hour difference equals 15 degrees of longitude.
So even if you had a perfect timekeeping device that never gained or lost a second, and would run forever, it still has to be set to local Longitude 0 time at least once, at the time of manufacture. What better place to create ultraprecise superdurable clockwork mechanisms than at the Clockwork Cathedral in Absalom?
And what about the Ulfen raiders and explorers of northern origin?But frankly, it seems most likely to me that Golarion's lines of latitude and longitude would have been laid down by the dragons. Many of them are members of races with intelligence and long lifespans, and what's more some dragons have detailed interests in astronomy and higher mathematics. Plus some of them have networks of human/demihuman spies and agents whom presumably they would issue charts and instruments to, so that they could go and get done whatever needed doing.
With some notable exceptions, the Vikings were mostly coastal raiders, and wouldn't have had the intense need for long distance navigational aids later European traders did. And of course you can navigate over long distances without an accurate longitude reading, it's just risky. Voyages take longer and cost more because you keep having to do course corrections, supplies have to be stretched, being off a few degrees can get you into dangerous waters, etc. Accurate longitude didn't make long distance sea travel and trade possible, it made it safer and more profitable.
I'm adding "Dragons Revisited" to my backlogged reading list, but for my own part, I was probably going to assume that dragons navigated using the planet's magnetic field, as migrating birds do, and had no need for anything as pedestrian as a map. But you make good points about their intellectual interests and about their use of human agents; either is a good reason for an interest in cartography.
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The vast majority of sailing and trade in the Inner Sea Region takes place in...the inner sea.
So all maps as well as Longitude 0 would be centered on the Inner sea, looking at the CS map, the center is between Westcrown and Augustana. However the 'City at the Center of the World' is Absalom, so it just makes damn sense to put it there! =p
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...I'm adding "Dragons Revisited" to my backlogged reading list, but for my own part, I was probably going to assume that dragons navigated using the planet's magnetic field, as migrating birds do, and had no need for anything as pedestrian as a map. But you make good points about their intellectual interests and about their use of human agents; either is a good reason for an interest in cartography.
I recommend Mike McArtor's article in Pathfinder #4 on the subject as well, which gives a good general overview of Golarion's dragons.
(edit)
With regard to Longitude Zero, I'm not sure it is as easy to 'reset' it seems to me that you suggest. People would get used to it being in the one place, as defined by whomever first officially delineated it as being in. The Greenwich Meridian (longitude zero) on Earth still goes through Greenwich, even though the days when sailing ships on the Thames needed to wait for the red ball...Any surviving Azlanti maps probably would do so, but such a location for Longitude 0 wouldn't be useful now (except, as you point out, for possibly finding sunken ruins), so they'd have to relocate it to some more easily accessible place.
In theory, the placement of Longitude 0 is entirely arbitrary and can be anywhere you like; in practice, it needs to be easily accessed because you need to be able to check local time at that point when setting the clock for your longitude-tracking device (aka "sea clock"); longitude is determined by figuring the difference between local (ship's) time and the time shown on the sea clock (the current time at Longitude 0; every hour difference equals 15 degrees of longitude.
So even if you had a perfect timekeeping device that never gained or lost a second, and would run forever, it still has to be set to local Longitude 0 time at least once, at the time of manufacture. What better place to create ultraprecise superdurable clockwork mechanisms than at the Clockwork Cathedral in Absalom?
Yes but it was not always at Greenwich. In fact for a long time it was through Paris. And for a long time it was through what ever was the capitol city of the country the map was made in. It was only accepted as being through Greenwich after many political and military situations had been decided, and even then there were meetings, that's why it doesn't run through London.
England was the dominant sea power for a long time so the Prime stayed there. They only lost that distinction recently to the US, and during an age of mass media and more accurate measuring devices, the political and practical need to change the Prime no longer existed.
As to Absalom, while hey have not displayed any desires for conquest, they have displayed ambitions to conquer by mercantilism. I don't think it was an accident they are the City at the Center of the World. And ultimately, it is the guys at Paizo who will place it where they want it, and they seem to keep wanting it at Absalom.
But the Dragon argument is the best so far! :)
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Creative Director
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Also, does anyone know if the Community Map corresponds to the 8 panel (PF Campaign) map, or the 4 Panel (Gazetteer) map? I know there were some discrepancies between the two, and I'd prefer to use the more accurate one.
The discrepancies between the two are limited to the placement of the dots that locate cities and the borders; the actual images of sea, mountains, rivers, forests and the like are the same between the two maps and thus for the purposes of using the map to plop down on a globe, either one works.
As for which one's more accurate for actual city locations and borders,t he Gazetteer one (the smaller one) is the one to go with, alas.
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Creative Director
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Seting longitude zero at Absalom makes the most sense, trust me. First of all, we don't want to let the Azlantis set Longitude zero because they're not the focus of the campaign setting and their continent is way off the map to the west. Furthermore, their whole society is dead and gone, and has been for 10,000 years; they've been gone longer than the Egyptian Pharaohs, remember. While their influence is certainly still felt, the "thousand years of darkness" Dark Age type thing that the inner sea region went through is MORE than enough to reset all of this.
We also want to make sure that the choice of where Latitude zero is is a a choice made by humans, since they're the dominant race on the planet of Golarion and the ones who have the most time and research and energy invested in sea travel. Dragons, for example, have never had a global society or ruled empires in Golarion, and there's no real good reason why these monsters would have developed a Longitude system, and even less good reasons why humans would adopt a draconic system.
Finally, setting longitude zero at Absalom helps the thematic element of Absalom being the "City at the Center of the World." It's ground zero for humanity right now, more or less.
Krome, noticed your profile: where in Texas?
As for which one's more accurate for actual city locations and borders, the Gazetteer one (the smaller one) is the one to go with, alas.
Aargh. Now I have to buy the Gazetteer. I don't suppose there's any chance of getting a poster-sized Gazetteer-correct map out as part of the RPG subsciption line? It's disappointing that the nice large map is in error, since we're more likely to want to measure distances from cities and borders rather than natural features.
I would love a poster sized map and would definitely buy one! Heck, even a vinyl one like Ptolus had (yes, I bought that one too - love maps).
-sakkara
Aargh. Now I have to buy the Gazetteer. I don't suppose there's any chance of getting a poster-sized Gazetteer-correct map out as part of the RPG subsciption line? It's disappointing that the nice large map is in error, since we're more likely to want to measure distances from cities and borders rather than natural features.
In that case the Prime Meridian should be Augustana, the center for naval exploration well beyond the Inner Sea.The premier mapmakers/explorers of the age would likely set it to Absalom as they (The Pathfinders) have their Grand Lodge there.
Unless they took Ptolemy's approach and set the Prime Meridian at the Eastern most known landmass (think it was the Canary Islands). Reason for that was of course to have the Prime Meridian be the leftmost edge of the map paper. Then again Ptolemy's accuracy left something to be desired.
Even in the event of humans first inventing or discovering systems for longitude and latitude, I would have thought that The Age of Darkness would allow the dragons to erase any inconvenient evidence that another race had done so, and claiming that they devised such a useful system themselves? (Also see the sidebar 'rewriting history' on the same page.)
I assume that it would be easier to later claim that the Dragons were responsible for Aroden's decision to raise the island (and possibly how they gave him the ability) than it is to keep the humans using a system that points to a place of importance to dragonkind or just some random place in the ocean that people rarely go to.
a Golarion globe might be nice
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Krome, noticed your profile: where in Texas?
lol Grew up in Houston, but live in Missouri now.
(Plus the elves were mostly off the scene, having gone into voluntary exile by the start of The Age of Darkness, ...)
The elves didn't voluntarily leave, they were kicked off planet.
Elves tend to distrust humans of Azlanti heritage, remembering the battles of ancient days before the fall of the Starstone, when the aboleth-backed scions of Azlant toppled the great cities of elvenfolk and forced the race to abandon Golarion through interplanetary gates.
emphasis added there... :)
regardless, we have it on high that the humans chose Absalom as the location of the Prime Meridian. That settles that.
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...regardless, we have it on high that the humans chose Absalom as the location of the Prime Meridian. That settles that.
It is clearly because the Obelisks of Destiny meet over the spot where the Isle of Kortos currently is every few dozen millenia, amidst the wondrous sight of hundreds of dragons flying in from all directions to meet in solemn conclave, that the place is known as 'The Centre of the World'. And a good thing too, otherwise it would be a place where horrors spill forth from the very depths of the land to shake whole nations, such as the Pit of Gormuz, which would hold the title.
And with the greatest respect, the elves abandoned Golarion because the dragons and their dwarven servants forced them out. I have several scrolls written by dwarven scribes at the direction of respected dragon historians that demonstrate the truth of that in the matter. And when the Aboleths and Azlanti tried to claim credit, naturally it was dragons working with the aid of magic researched with Abraxas that put an end to their challenge to the natural order of things with dragons and dwarves at the very top of the natural pecking order.
;)
Edit (clarity)
For those of you who miss the ;) this post is mostly humorous.