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One thing I loved about the beta rules was the possibility to get low-power but useful at-will attack powers at 1st level, such as through the Fire domain or the Elemental bloodline.
In the previews, these seem to have been nerfed from at-will to 3 + ability times per day. Why-oh-why? What could possibly move the designers to consider such an ability overpowered? Is that minute adjustment in power really worth the bookkeeping? Why must the zombie of the crossbow sorcerer rise again? :(
(Just for the record, I absolutely love what Pathfinder has done to the 3.5 rules otherwise.)
Jason said that in a playtest of his, he never ran out of uses.
He also said that in your game, you can do what you want. He didn't seem to be troubled by the idea of someone using them at will again.
I'd say go for it!
It's still a dramatic expansion of the abilities of the low-level caster, and they still gets cantrips at will, I believe.
Consequently, there should be more attack cantrips, but mostly reflavored versions of the existing ones.
Casters won't be completely without an arcane attack option if they prep their spells right.
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It doesn't matter what the ability, if it's at-will, it risks becoming the only thing that character does every round, and that soon becomes boring.
Changing at-will abilities to 3 + ability mod per day encourages players to consider ALL their options creatively and strategically, and not mindlessly firing the same action round-after-round.
It doesn't matter what the ability, if it's at-will, it risks becoming the only thing that character does every round, and that soon becomes boring.
Changing at-will abilities to 3 + ability mod per day encourages players to consider ALL their options creatively and strategically, and not mindlessly firing the same action round-after-round.
Well, once you run out of uses for your arcane bolt, you have to go back to using "shoot crossbow" every round. Just as boring, but less wizardy.
And those backup abilities don't need to be powerful enough to be a viable alternative to even a 1st-level spell. Those 1d6 +1/2lv rays or touch attacks were nice, but they didn't really replace scorching rays or magic missiles.
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Well, once you run out of uses for your arcane bolt, you have to go back to using "shoot crossbow" every round. Just as boring, but less wizardy.
Exactly! As long as the power level of the at-will ability is well below that of actual spells, the latter are always going to be more important choices. The crossbow is about as powerful as the 1d6 + CL/2 bolt, but you can use it at will. How come it is not considered overpowered...? Certainly having a crossbow will not make any wizard or sorcerer neglect his spells!
As for reflavoring cantrips, that wouldn't really do any good IMHO. 1d3 is just too little to be relevant (without sneak attack...). On the other hand, 1d6 + CL/2 seems just about the right amount of power to remain relevant while staying far behind dedicated attacks, such as a Scorching Ray or an archer's volley.
The argument that 3 + ability should be enough for anyone is moot. If it really is, you might as well make it at-will and save yourself the administrative overhead.
The crossbow is about as powerful as the 1d6 + CL/2 bolt, but you can use it at will. How come it is not considered overpowered...? Certainly having a crossbow will not make any wizard or sorcerer neglect his spells!
Big difference IMO.
Ranged touch attack vs ranged attack makes the energy (etc.) bolts much more efficient to hit a foe and the damage goes over the light crossbow at level 4 and over the heavy crossbow at level 6 and all that without reloading (or bying a magical crossbow or bolts)or Attacks of opportunities (Supernatural powers not spell-like) so they can be used in melee. That's a lot better than the crossbow.
The wand of magic missile or acid arrow can cover a few extra similar uses at mid-level. Meanwhile, the wizard/sorcerer can buy a few alchemical items, they are also ranged touch.
@Catharis
Ray of Forst by a evoker with point blank shot is 1d3 +1 (pbs) + 1 (intense spell). At 10th level this will be 1d3+6 so it wlll still be a valid choice.
Maybe there is just a fear that they, or third party support, will provide ways to improve the basic ray attacks in a way that makes them overly powerful to perform at will.
You could have a whole subset of feats devoted directly towards the elemental rays and the acid ray of the Abberant bloodline.
Improved elemental ray: +1 damage per caster level instead of 1/2 CL.
Extra elemental ray: Doubles the amount of ray attacks that you can make.
Extend elemental ray: Range increases to 60ft.
Chain elemental ray: Ray attack ricochets to one extra target per six levels.
Strengthen elemental ray: Ray attack now deals 2d6 as opposed to 1d6.
Hindering elemental ray: Has secondary effect based on element type.
* Fire: REF DC15 or catch fire
* Cold: FOR 11+CHA or take -2 DEX
* Acid: Take acid damge equal to 1/2 CL the following round.
* Elec: Lowers current initiative by 2.
ETC.
Granted, these all seem pretty weak to be blowing feats on but I'm sure something a little more balanced could be worked out better than what just came off the top of my head.
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Ranged touch attack vs ranged attack makes the energy (etc.) bolts much more efficient to hit a foe and the damage goes over the light crossbow at level 4 and over the heavy crossbow at level 6 and all that without reloading (or bying a magical crossbow or bolts)or Attacks of opportunities (Supernatural powers not spell-like) so they can be used in melee. That's a lot better than the crossbow.
You're forgetting the range of 30 ft, which is dangerous for an arcanist. Also, humans and elves can use longbows instead, so the reload is irrelevant. I would definitely prefer the elemental bolt at higher levels, where the difference between touch AC and full AC is greater, the bolt damage is better, and arcanists have better defenses, but at that stage you have enough real spells to use anyway.
What's intense spell? The evoker ability? Is it really half level to damage? I seem to remember it being much weaker.
According to Jason in a post on the main wizard preview thread.
Take evokers now. Their first level ability is called force missile and allows them to fire off magic missiles one at a time, adding in their bonus from the intense spells ability (+1 damage to every spell per 2 caster levels, minimum +1).
So at least that aspect of wizards has not been reduced in power.
The argument that 3 + ability should be enough for anyone is moot. If it really is, you might as well make it at-will and save yourself the administrative overhead.
What he said. Why not keep it at-will?
Having said that, in my games at least we run out of healing resources first, not attack spell resources, so the at-will power are used only for nuissance type encounters. To me, I'd rather just keep it at-will spells to avoid the bookeeping as well as keeping my arcane player amused (and not using a crossbow) on the 1-2 rounds while cleaning up enemies.
From what I remember, some DMs also didn't like the at-will powers because:
1) They didn't feel new 1st level Wizards/Sorcs should be able to cast something relatively powerful continuously. And at higher levels (level 6?) at-will spells aren't as needed because of the much larger arsenal available.
2) Some DMs felt the power was too useful or too damaging and some of their players "overused" it.
3) I remember reading something about there being a problem with Wizards being a constant source of energy or the like, especially with electricity (The Matrix!). I could be completely imagining this however. :)
@Catharis
Ray of Forst by a evoker with point blank shot is 1d3 +1 (pbs) + 1 (intense spell). At 10th level this will be 1d3+6 so it wlll still be a valid choice.
Um, how exactly is 1d3+6 at level 10 a valid choice? Thats good for killing what, a level 10 gerbil? A gainst appropriate CR enemies, that will be like throwing a waterbaloon into an emtpy pool to fill it while someone else uses a hose. Yea the baloon 'helps' but in the end your just wasting your time.
Not to mention you are making your point with a very specific case (evoker with point blank shot) that hardly applies to all wizards. Even if an evoker could actually turn ray of frost into something useful, that doesnt mean its a case for balancing something with ALL wizards.
That said, I really dont mind puting a limit on it. There are still lots of ways a wizard can keep from having to pull out the dreaded crossbow. Scrolls and wands are the obvious initial answer, but there also a host of low level magic items out there that can be used to the same effect. I almost never had to pull out the crossbow on my low level wizards, you just have to plan well. Add to that the ability to fire off a bunch of these a day and hopefully he will have enough spells in the mix to not have to worry too much. After all there is no reason now that a wizard shouldn't have a nice complement of scrolls written up pretty early in the adventure (assuming the dm allows some downtime for scribing).
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There is absolutely no reason you should have infinite magic floating around all day just because you spent a weekend at Sorcerer camp.
Your low level, deal with that fact and play smartly, so you've got to fire a crossbow or hit something with a knife on occasion. It wouldn't be such a problem if you didn't tank all of your non-casting stats. ;)
All the first and second edition wizards are laughing at you. They didn't even have a crossbow, they threw darts.
Just make sure your lower level spells work for more then an instant and you should do fine. No reason to reward people for taking magic missile at first level as one of your only wizard spells.
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All the first and second edition wizards are laughing at you. They didn't even have a crossbow, they threw darts.
If anything, I should be laughing at them. ;) Anyway, if things sucked in lesser version of the game, that should be a reason to do it better in this version, rather than sticking to the suck out of sheer nostalgia. Frankly, I consider the whole Vancian magic thing an anachronism.
No reason to reward people for taking magic missile at first level as one of your only wizard spells.
Hm? Having a usable attack cantrip would be just another reason *not* to choose magic missile at first level.
All I know is that my favorite character is a universalist wizard. At mid and high levels, Hand of the Apprentice and its specialist counterparts have a negligible effect on the game. At low levels, though, my 20 Intelligence wizard could stand well out of melee range and use Hand of the Apprentice to outfight any low-level fighter. It was a +5 to hit and damage with no chance of immediate retaliation because the target was so far away.
I don't think that the at-will effects has a huge impact on the game past the first few levels, but for those early levels I can imagine it would suck to be an 18 Strength fighter watching the 6 Strength wizard wreak havoc all day every day from across the room. If the goal is to make play as fun as possible for everyone at every level, then I think that the cut to 1st-level powers is a good one.
By comparison, now my 20 Intelligence wizard has the equivalent of eight extra 1st-level spells a day, which should be enough to last him most days. It also means that using Hand of the Apprentice or an equivalent power is no longer a no-brainer. Now maybe I'm thinking that I can bring down that goblin with a ray of frost and hold off on my more effetive abilities until we track down the bugbear chieftain we've been tracking the last few days.
I understand that not everyone would agree with that line of thinking, but considering that one of the most common complaints about any edition of D&D is that magic is way overpowered, I imagine that it's best for the Pathfinder RPG not to make 1st-level wizards almost completely superior to 1st-level fighters right out the gate.
All the first and second edition wizards are laughing at you. They didn't even have a crossbow, they threw darts.
That and they certainly couldn't cast almost every round. This is why WoC and Piazo keeps having to nerf spells and why everyone thinks that the melee classes aren't nearly as good. Magic Users used to just stand in the background until some dangerous situation would arise that forced them to jump in and use up his very limited resources.
There is absolutely no reason you should have infinite magic floating around all day just because you spent a weekend at Sorcerer camp.
Your low level, deal with that fact and play smartly, so you've got to fire a crossbow or hit something with a knife on occasion. It wouldn't be such a problem if you didn't tank all of your non-casting stats. ;)
All the first and second edition wizards are laughing at you. They didn't even have a crossbow, they threw darts.
Just make sure your lower level spells work for more then an instant and you should do fine. No reason to reward people for taking magic missile at first level as one of your only wizard spells.
Wow. Talk about a superiority complex.
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Wow. Talk about a superiority complex.
Actually that was supposed to be more curmudgeonly ala "You kids don't know how good you've got it! In my day..."
Realistically there is more then enough magic for anyone to get by with if they're smart about it. Picking the proper spells and using them in the right situations.
At lower levels you shouldn't be looking for your spells to do damage quite honestly, you should be looking at ways to help out your fellow party members . Spells like Charm Person, Color Spray, Enlarge Person and the like normally do a lot more then a one hour Mage Armor or a 1d4+1 Magic Missile.
What's wrong with knowing how to fire and load a crossbow after all? It's a great backup weapon for almost anyone, does decent damage and has a good crit range. :)
It's funny. I've seen this discussion in a 4E forum thread except the exact opposite. Apparently having a low level at will blast isn't any more fun than shooting a crossbow after a while.
It's funny. I've seen this discussion in a 4E forum thread except the exact opposite. Apparently having a low level at will blast isn't any more fun than shooting a crossbow after a while.
The problem with 4E is that if you don't reduce the monster hit points by 50%, battles go on too long and you have a lot of rounds where the players are doing at-will powers again and again and again.
Also, upper level abilities act almost exactly like at-will abilities: roll to hit and roll damage. Yawn.
Although that's not very exciting, it's more of a reflection on the 4E system as opposed to "bolts of at-will doom" being exciting or not.
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It doesn't matter what the ability, if it's at-will, it risks becoming the only thing that character does every round, and that soon becomes boring.
Changing at-will abilities to 3 + ability mod per day encourages players to consider ALL their options creatively and strategically, and not mindlessly firing the same action round-after-round.
AGREED! I have a player that uses his at will abilities almost to a detrimental fault.
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The argument that 3 + ability should be enough for anyone is moot. If it really is, you might as well make it at-will and save yourself the administrative overhead.What he said. Why not keep it at-will?
Because it doesn't really make sense for wizards to be able to do it? They don't have any real store of arcane power to shape into bolts of magic. They can shape magic into spells, but that doesn't make it theirs.