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OK just ran a game tonight and I had a tactic in mind but I could not find a way in the rules to achieve it. So, please, help!
I had two small ships side by side in the harbor. Five feet separated the two vessels, so Acrobatics (Jump) could be used to cross the space.
I expected the PCs to want to board, so I placed henchmen every other space to limit access and to increase Attacks of opportunity as they were using Guisarmes for reach and Trip.
Immediately behind the first group, is another line of soldiers with shiel and mace. This line blocks the space between the "pikemen" so there are no clear avenues of movement.
Sounds great so far. Looks imposing on the map too.
So I have the henchmen ready actions if the PCs actually jump aboard the "mace" soldiers will bullrush the PCs off the ship. The pikemen get attacks of opportunity during the jump.
What I was HOPING for was for the attacks of opportunity to cause the jumping PCs to fall into the water. But from what I can see the AoO does not actually stop the movement. They can inflict damage, but cannot stop anyone from boarding.
The henchmen where 2 levels lower than the PCs and I quickly found that there is almost no way (effectively a 15% chance to ever succeed- needed 18s or better to succeed) they could overcome the DC to actually Bullrush. From what I have seen in the previews that will become even MORE difficult.
So any advice? Essentially it looks like there is really no way at all to prevent boarding or repel boarders.
Other ideas I was hoping to use, but found no ways possible to do it, was line the ship with shield wielders and have them essentially Shield Bash/Slam the jumping PC to knock them into the water. But again there seems to be no way at all to do that. The only way I found to "move" a PC is to Bull Rush, which requires the henchman to use his movement to push someone off.
The only "creative" way I found to "shield bash" a jumping PC was to ready a Bull Rush, when the PC lands in the space, step into it and Bull Rush. You don't get any benefit of the shield though. Anyway to add a modifier for the shield (perhaps a +2 bonus) to help with that DC? But does readying an action prevent AoOs? Not sure.
Can a defending frontline pikeman get an AoO against the jumping PC, then use his readied action to step over and push the PC into the water?
Any advice on a better way to do this? Any suggestions on how to lower that nearly impossible DC for CMBs?
What about a readied trip from the halberd wielders 5' back, as an aoo? I figure a mid-air trip over water should mean 'splash!', maybe with a reflex save or something to grab hold. Have the mace 'n board types up front protecting them, or ready trips as well.
As for the CMB numbers, have you looked at the bonus bestiary? I haven't yet so I don't know how much the CMB/CMD changed from the beta.
Would shield slam or shall not pass help? How many feats do the OPFOR have?
Are you limited to core PRPG feats?
If the pikemen Trip the PCs as they jump, it should basically end the PC's Move. Then gravity happens.
If this is Readied, no problem, but remember the Pikeman need to have Improved Trip to be able to use it as an AoO.
If the mid-air Trip works, the PCs should get another Acrobatics/Jump check (though Climb seems more appropriate, really) to catch themselves on the edge of the deck like happens when you fail a Jump check to leap a gap by <5. If they have a Standard Action remaining, they could haul themselves up (possibly provoking, but it's doubtful the pikemen have Imp. Unarmed to kick) or if they want just attack the pikemen with a 1-handed weapon (with penalties as if climbing). Getting Bullrushed by the Shield/Mace guys in this position I would count the PCs as on the ground and flat-footed.
I'd say it's your call whether the PCs get a "catch the edge" check if the Shield/Mace guys succeed in Bullrushing them off. I'd be inclined to grant a +2 or so Equipment Bonus for Bullrushes (and Over-Runs) with a Shield... But I think over-all the Final rules will be EASIER than the Beta, at least for most cases.
Even if all the PCs get over, if the not immediately adjacent Pikemen have room to maneuver, most of the PCs will have to deal with being threatened by multiple reach weapons and hemmed in by closer ones (who should probably be fighting defensively if they're not charmed and the PCs are obviously bad-ass enough to have chosen to jump into this)
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Darn I had not thought about a Trip attack in the air! That would have been perfect!
The Shield Slam would also have worked. Thanks for pointing that one out to me. The henchmen would still be too low for it, but I forgot that one.
Why do they need Improved Trip to use it as an AoO? The description of Improved Trip says nothing about that. I checked in AoO and it also does not say you can't use a Combat Maneuver in an AoO, and the Combat Maneuver section, and Trip does not say you cannot do a Trip as an AoO.
It does however mean that if the pikemen attempt to Trip the mid-air PCs as part of an Attack of Opportunity, the PCs get an Attack of Opportunity BACK before the pikemen can do their Trip AoO! Which would be hilarious if the PC is then attempting to Trip as his new AoO... lol
And no they weren't bad ass at all. Essentially the fight was 2nd level PCs (Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, 2x Cleric) against 10 level 2 Warriors and one level 9 Cleric.
Problem was the PCs managed to board too easily (I never even thought about trip during their jump). The Jump DC was really easy, DC 12 (five feet DC 5, +2 for unsteady, +5 for obstructed). The PCs CMB was about 5, the henchmen were around 3.
They easily cleaned up the henchmen. The lone Cleric, a major bad ass summoned a Fire elemental to their boat. Was about to summon a Bearded Devil when his spell was disrupted by a hit. He had an AC 18, which they managed to hit half the time but when they did they could tear up his HP. The henchmen just could NOT hit the side of a barn. So yeah that was a MAJOR part of it.
My frustration was in not figuring out how to stop the boarding. I REALLY wanted to use shields for that, but I realize NOW that there IS a way to use shields for it, they just were not high enough.
Just a suggestion for things like this in the future. The really nice thing about combat manuevers is that the mechanic has been generalized. This means that any manuever that doesn't fall neatly into grapple, trip, disarm, bullrush etc can still be implemented using the same system. This is actually my favorite part of this change. As long as it makes sense in any particular situation, I'll have no problem pulling out CMB check for something that I can't even give a name to.
Krome,
The thing with boarding actions (much like ascending ladders onto the defended walls of a fort) is that the best way to stop it is at the very rails of the ship. Your cleric's henchmen would have most effectively stopped a boarding action by the simple virtue of moving to the very edge of the boat/ship they were defending. You cannot move through nor end one's movement in an enemy space as far as I know, unless you are Tiny (or smaller), in which case you have to move into your enemy's space to attack with natural or most wielded weapons. Well, without Acrobatics/Tumble checks at least.
Naturally, for spellchuckers, such actions lead to prime chances to fire off such fun spells as color spray and sleep. But that's the game - the henchmen are probably going to have been assured by the cleric that he can deal with the casters (especially with a remove fear or two).
Bitter Thorn read my mind.
"Shall Not Pass" feat popped into my head before I even finished reading the post.
Although, if you don't feel like paying out a feat, I would ad hoc a "Stop Movement" maneuver against jumping opponents.
Just a suggestion for things like this in the future. The really nice thing about combat manuevers is that the mechanic has been generalized. This means that any manuever that doesn't fall neatly into grapple, trip, disarm, bullrush etc can still be implemented using the same system.
What he said.
Yes, they could get an AOO and a readied action. Also you have 2-3 NPCs per "opening" - each of them with an 15% chance is only a 27% chance of *not* bull-rushing at least one of 4 PCs that were boarding.
Krome,
The thing with boarding actions (much like ascending ladders onto the defended walls of a fort) is that the best way to stop it is at the very rails of the ship. Your cleric's henchmen would have most effectively stopped a boarding action by the simple virtue of moving to the very edge of the boat/ship they were defending.
This is also very true - force the PCs to do the bull rushing! :)
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Why do they need Improved Trip to use it as an AoO? The description of Improved Trip says nothing about that. I checked in AoO and it also does not say you can't use a Combat Maneuver in an AoO, and the Combat Maneuver section, and Trip does not say you cannot do a Trip as an AoO.
There was a thread in the BETA design and development about Combat Manuevers as AoOs. Wherein Jason originally said that his intent was to not allow it, but after the discussion with the posters and meetings with paizo staff he changed his mind and made the rule that any of the CMBs that are performed as part of an attack action can be used as AoOs if the person performing the action has the requisite Improved feat.
If you're running BETA RAW then you can just ignore all of this, but if you are trying to run based on the developments brought about in the forums (new paladin, new barb, new AnCo rules, the above mentioned CMB rules) then you do need the feat to perform a CMB as AoO.
Personally I disagree with needing the feat, and houseruled that you can do it without.
Why do they need Improved Trip to use it as an AoO? The description of Improved Trip says nothing about that. I checked in AoO and it also does not say you can't use a Combat Maneuver in an AoO, and the Combat Maneuver section, and Trip does not say you cannot do a Trip as an AoO.
There was a thread in the BETA design and development about Combat Manuevers as AoOs. Wherein Jason originally said that his intent was to not allow it, but after the discussion with the posters and meetings with paizo staff he changed his mind and made the rule that any of the CMBs that are performed as part of an attack action can be used as AoOs if the person performing the action has the requisite Improved feat.
If you're running BETA RAW then you can just ignore all of this, but if you are trying to run based on the developments brought about in the forums (new paladin, new barb, new AnCo rules, the above mentioned CMB rules) then you do need the feat to perform a CMB as AoO.
Personally I disagree with needing the feat, and houseruled that you can do it without.
I'm not sure; according to this PRPG SRD:
Combat Maneuver Bonus [FINAL; Excerpted from Bonus Bestiary]
This is the bonus used by a creature when it attempts to make a combat maneuver against another creature. Combat maneuvers include bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. While disarm, sunder, and trip can be used as part of an attack action (replacing an attack), bull rush, grapple, and overrun are made as part of a move action or, in the case of grapple, as a separate standard action. This check is made against a DC equal to the target’s combat maneuver defense. A creature’s CMB is equal to its base attack bonus + its Strength modifier + a special size modifier. Creatures with the Agile Maneuvers feat and creatures of size Tiny and smaller use their Dexterity bonus instead of their Strength bonus. A combat maneuver is an attack and gains all of the benefits (and penalties) a creature might gain on attack rolls from spells, feats, magic items, and conditional modifiers.
You should consider using the stand still feat out of 3.5. It allows a user who makes an attack of opportunity for leaving a threatened square (IE steping in on a reach weapon) to instead of doing damage, use the damage roll to set a reflex dc or be stopped dead in their tracks. (I think its 10+damage dealt) A person I game with once used this to knock a dragon out of the sky (stopped its forward movement and couldn't maintain flight without the requisite forward movement). Its among a couple good martial feats out of the psionics book, and is thus often overlooked by people not using psionics, but its in the 3.5 SRD.
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Why do they need Improved Trip to use it as an AoO? The description of Improved Trip says nothing about that. I checked in AoO and it also does not say you can't use a Combat Maneuver in an AoO, and the Combat Maneuver section, and Trip does not say you cannot do a Trip as an AoO.
There was a thread in the BETA design and development about Combat Manuevers as AoOs. Wherein Jason originally said that his intent was to not allow it, but after the discussion with the posters and meetings with paizo staff he changed his mind and made the rule that any of the CMBs that are performed as part of an attack action can be used as AoOs if the person performing the action has the requisite Improved feat.
If you're running BETA RAW then you can just ignore all of this, but if you are trying to run based on the developments brought about in the forums (new paladin, new barb, new AnCo rules, the above mentioned CMB rules) then you do need the feat to perform a CMB as AoO.
Personally I disagree with needing the feat, and houseruled that you can do it without.
I'm not sure; according to this PRPG SRD:
Um, I don't want to sound contrary, but since when is that an official resource? Granted I didn't link the discussion I'm refering to, but I'm sure someone with better web-fu than I can. I don't believe that SRD is put together by the paizo staff and so it can miss things on the forums as easily as any of us can, not to mention that it's pulling that from the brief description of CMB from the bonus bestiary and not the final rules in the book, granted neither is the discussion on the forum the final in the book as he could have changed his mind completely, but at least it's direct from the source Mr. Buhlman himself (or at least will be if someone links it :) ) and not from an compressed exerpt of what will probably be a much larger and in depth section of the final book.
I had not meant to imply that the source I cited was official, and I believe it's actually closer to your house rule which I prefer.
I guess SRDs have been fairly "official" in the past, so I can see how one could make that inference. That's why I included the link so my citation would be clearly sourced. My intention was simply to add some more clues to our guesses about the core book's rule when it comes out. I don't really have any more insight to the finished product than anyone else. ;)
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Krome,
The thing with boarding actions (much like ascending ladders onto the defended walls of a fort) is that the best way to stop it is at the very rails of the ship. Your cleric's henchmen would have most effectively stopped a boarding action by the simple virtue of moving to the very edge of the boat/ship they were defending. You cannot move through nor end one's movement in an enemy space as far as I know, unless you are Tiny (or smaller), in which case you have to move into your enemy's space to attack with natural or most wielded weapons. Well, without Acrobatics/Tumble checks at least.
Naturally, for spellchuckers, such actions lead to prime chances to fire off such fun spells as color spray and sleep. But that's the game - the henchmen are probably going to have been assured by the cleric that he can deal with the casters (especially with a remove fear or two).
I didn't have enough troops to cover the entire length, so I packed up deep in the area I expected them to jump to. I also did want to leave them areas to "entice" them to jump. Hoping to knock them into the water. But I failed to even come close to that. :(
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As far as I can tell the rules from the Bonus Bestiary are meant to represent the final versions of the rules. While the BB may not be an EXACT quote of the final rules, I would certainly go with anything it said over any conversations in the forums, regardless of who said what.
Now, based upon the reading of the BB, even if I had every space along the rail filled, the PCs could have used a Bull Rush to clear the spaces, or Overrun to move past the henchmen. Not that they would have thought about that. By the same token it appears that the henchmen could have used Trip as AoOs against the jumping Bull Rushing PCs.
The tricky part as I see it is dealing with AoO that themselves incur AoO... that could run ad nauseum!
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A very simple solution. You have a 9th level cleric. The enemies obviously knew the party was there as they readied actions. I don't have a spelllist infront of me, but the cleric could easily have readied an action to cast a standard action spell to create some sort of wall or barrier just after they jumped.
It doesn't have a chance to fail like manuvers, it blocks their movement, and doesn't hurt/kill anyone. You could even play it off as being lenient and give them a reflex save to avoid 1d6 nonlethal damage from smacking into a wall or whatever the cleric summons. If he can summon a fire elemental, why not an earth elemental to just act as a wall.
