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My group is planning on playing through the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path in a few weeks and I am thinking of playing an elven wizard. However, I know nothing about the setting and I am fairly new to the PRG.
I was hoping, without giving up any spoilers, what sort of build I should go with if I am playing a wizard from the Academae? Is a Conjurer the only option for this organisation?
I don't play many wizards and really want to plan a decent build for this adventure path. I believe we will be using the Epic Fantasy point system.
Any suggestions?
problematic choice, but not impossible
As for the "can do" :
- The Acadamae does train specialist wizards in all schools of magic, not only conjuration. That one is top-dog, though. It is also NOT a nice and caring environment, and doesn't have exactly what you would call a "wash-out" rate. Rather anyone (?) who fails becomes... testing material.... for the remainder of the students. The fact that Korvosa has a significant free-roaming-imps problem should also give some indication as to their safety standards. Let's not even get started on the necromantic faculty shall we ?
As I said, not a nice place. Probably will leave some scars on the average students psyche. There will also be a problem should you suddenly elope from Korvosa in the middle of the semester or miss classes and chores for a few days due to other "pressing matters" a.k.a "adventures"
As an alternative, there is the non-specialist - Collegiate wizards school on the eastern bank, which is pretty much only an open narrative framework, which your GM could fill.
- There are elves in Korvosa. They are also very few in numbers (a few dozen, IIRC, in a population over 20k ) and mostly linked to the elvish envoy to the Korvosian crown. There are no handy elvish "heartlands" or communities anywhere within a few hundred miles, and the forest-kingdom of Kyonir has itself some pretty decent facilities for training its magically adept kin, if AP#3 is to be believed. You could of course be a "lost elf", living away from the elvish communities... but thereby you would loose access to any background flavour of being elvish.
You will also stand out very much in Korvosa and have a pretty high recognition factor, since you would be one of a small select group. And without too much spoilers, the campaign does involve a certain degree of skullduggery and being inconspicious, at least in the first three chapters. It's like an african-genotype say in... nordic Iceland ? Everyone will remember the different-looking-fellow at the scene..... innocent or not. And that means the guards and other less benign groups taking an interst....
Not to mention that in Golarion, elves are taller than humans, and poke well out of the average crowd. The elf in my campaign truly hated those drawbacks, and I wasn't emphasizing them overly. Then again, your GM might just be very lenient.
But Korvosa is an overwhelmingly human setting, with a fair sprinkling of dwarves, due to the proximity of Janderhoff and the Mindspin mountains. Anonymity (and sometimes safety) lies that way... a major factor if one has piXXed of "someone" willing enough to pay for an assassin to stalk you
Besides this, the AP's Player Guide rewards a certain "connection" to the streets and its dangers, and that might be _very_hard to implement with regard to a student at the Acadamae (an honour in itself, it recruits from the best, and IIRC is pretty expensive on tuition fees, too ). Depending upon your group's style of social interaction and focus on roleplaying with the background, this might leave you feeling left out.
- Last, without giving away too much of the plot, the first three chapters heavily favour, not to mention reward social and physical skills and their use.... The sorceress in our (ongoing) campaign had some extremely memorable scenes with regard to those - for failing, often spectacularly^^
But it often enough cuts down on what a pure wizard may be able to contribute to the party's success.
This is far less of a problem if you use the Pathfinder rules though.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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There will also be a problem should you suddenly elope from Korvosa in the middle of the semester or miss classes and chores for a few days due to other "pressing matters" a.k.a "adventures"
Not so much of a problem as you might think.
There is a Feat in the CotCT Player's Guide called Acadamae Graduate. I'll post it here, since the PG is freely available.New Feat: ACADAMAE GRADUATE
You have passed the grueling Test of Summoning and graduated from the Acadamae.
Prerequisites: Specialist wizard level 1st; cannot have conjuration as a forbidden school.
Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist becoming fatigued.
This would lead me to believe that a 1st Level Wizard has already done enough to Graduate from the Acadamae, at least as at a Certificate Level (as opposed to a Degree, Masters, etc...)
While it wouldn't necesarily mean that you have to take this Feat (although if you were going to be a Conjuror I probably would), it does give you some insight into the workings of Academae Graduation Policies.
I for instance have a character who attended the Academae because her father is a Teacher there Elizabeth Danflor but actaully started life as a Rogue and added Wizard at second level to highlight the fact that she doesn't want to be an Academae Wizard, but is content to dabble. She hasn't necessarily "washed out" per se, her Father has just sent her away until she can prove her magical aptitude to him, at which point he will allow her to resume her studies (which of course she has no plans on ever doing).
But I digress...
You can basically play whatever Specialist you wish, although Conjuration is heavily favoured and I would advise against taking it as an opposed school. That being said, as vikingson pointed out, there are other options available and an Elven Wizard in particular, especially one who is Chaotic might find the Acadamae too stuffy for his tastes and choose to learn somewhere else. Unless you are specifically wanting to play an Acaadamae Graduate, then this is probably what I would consider.
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according to the Korvosa guide the elf pop is about 2% so that is closer to 360 elves in the city. Still a minority, but better then a couple dozen. I have a graduate of the Acadamae in my campaign, and while the Acadamae may not be the nieces happy place to learn magic it is a very well respected school. I also believe its graduates are respected and feared a little by the common folk of the city. In my campaign I decided that graduates can if they choose wear the schools runic insignias on their sleeves so that the world knows of their prowess. So in my opinion you are making a fine decision to be from the Acadamae. Be proud young wizard not all of your class was so lucky as to make through school. Remember you are from the most prestigious wizard school in all of Verisia rival of the august collages in Geb and Cheliax. Ultimately enjoy your character and the campaign.
according to the Korvosa guide the elf pop is about 2% so that is closer to 360 elves in the city. Still a minority, but better then a couple dozen. I have a graduate of the Acadamae in my campaign, and while the Acadamae may not be the nieces happy place to learn magic it is a very well respected school. I also believe its graduates are respected and feared a little by the common folk of the city. In my campaign I decided that graduates can if they choose wear the schools runic insignias on their sleeves so that the world knows of their prowess. So in my opinion you are making a fine decision to be from the Acadamae. Be proud young wizard not all of your class was so lucky as to make through school. Remember you are from the most prestigious wizard school in all of Verisia rival of the august collages in Geb and Cheliax. Ultimately enjoy your character and the campaign.
The same book explicitly states that the population of elves in Korvosa is "a handful" (page 44), with quite a bit of elaboration on this which I find vastly more believable than an unsubstantiated percentile number of 2% (I mean, have you_ever_seen something like 1,3% or 45,8 % on one of those population composition blocks ? Even the lowest full number, 1% would be 180+ elves...)
By the numerical estimate Korvosa would shelter approximately 360 elves... Given that there is not a single prominent Korvosan elf mentioned in the entirity of the "Guide to Korvosa" or the entire AP itself besides the roughly sketched envoy... I tend to lean to the point that the descriptive text actually got it right... there are few, very few elves in the city. YMMVAs for the Acadamae - I never said it wasn't feared or respected (if grudgingly so ), but that doesn't make it a great choice as far as a useful background is concerned. These days, if you state "wizard's school", everyone start thinking "Hogswarths", along with cute pixies, lovably quirky ghosts and happy-go-lucky potter-esque students....
But that is not how the Acadamae is described or set up by Paizo's own Mike McArtor. His Acadamae's motto could well read "Excellence in success or gruesome Death trying"
to quote
"Despite its leniency towards evil, the [acadamae] remains a truly Chelaxian and Korvosan institution,..."
and
"The evil it embraces is precise, organized and regimented"
also
"Thus students of the Acadamae are rarely seen outside its imposing walls. Those who do exit do so in groups as part of their studies or to shop at the [magical shop]"
and
"Students who attend the Acadamae usually have no interest in doing good works. Generally they seek power at any cost. Many become swayed by the honeyed words of the devils they summon and most of those loose any morality they had and slip inexorably into evil"
never forget
"The Acadamae accepts nearly anyone who applies, since those who fail become test subjects for those who do not."
They even, at times of low attendance, waive their fees to ensure a certain "availability" of students for this ! Sounds like a really sweet dog-eats-dog kind of place..... Plus, they do NOT object or seek to control the Acadamae-based local sadistically inclined imp population^^
As an aside, Conjuration is in fact a required schooland cannot be taken as a forbidden school by an Acadamae-student. Post#2 is wrong about that. Compare pages 10-11 of the "Guide to Korvosa"
There certainly is more description , but some of that would be spoileresque for the AP
Not a background that most elves (as racially outlined by the campaign-setting) would enjoy or prosper in, if the GM plays is the way it is written. Unless one aims for a Raistlin-Majere-as-Elf sort of character^^
If Dorgar decided to depict and run his Acadamae less malevolently that's certainly his privilege, but is there any indication that the OP's GM will do likewise ?
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I understand p.44 says what it says. however I believe they have that 1%other on the pop for a reason if they only wanted a few dozen total elves they would not have put 2% elf. I never said my Acadamae is a happy jolly place it is far from it. I do think that by all means the op should speak with their GM as they will be the best one to know the flavor that they are looking for in their campaign. I am not posting to say oh Vikingson is wrong I am posting to help the op as they requested. I think you are still looking at it as if the character would still be a student, but I believe the pc's are intended to be graduates not still students. Chubbs I wish you the best of luck, play what you want talk to your GM, I think your idea is a very viable character Vikingson obviously disagrees. See what yoiur GM thinks and let us know if you don't mind.
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I believe that part of the 2% described in the city-stat-block is actually the number of elves in the immediate area, that means in Korvosa and in the surrounding country-side. I'm inclined to agree with Vikinson that there are only a handful of Elves in the city, but that within a few miles of the city there may well be 360 elves. I very well doubt that Korvosa itself (at that size) could actually have a population of over 18,000 and not have at least a portion of those living within an hours walk of the city and not actually within. Same for Magnimar's 16,000.
So, with a little interpretation on your side, you could easily be one of the "Elves of Korvosa" and not actually have come from within the city proper.
Since the OP is specifically asking about a build, I will hazard one. I would indeed recommend going with a conjurer (though as stated above this is not your only choice) and play up your connections to the Academae in game. For an actual build, I would look at:
Note: Summoners are hard to play. You need to know not only all your spells and abilities, but those of the creatures you are summoning as well. Putting a lot of extra creatures on the table slows things down in play considerably and you owe it to the other players to be as efficient as possible with those moves as you can. If you are not willing to put the time into preparing things outside of the game like cards for each of your summons and being ready knowing what your creatures and you will do in each of your turns, I would not recommend playing a summoner.
Note: Elf is not really an optimal choice for race here due to the minus to Con and no real benefits that is giving back. Human would be a better choice from a pure build perspective. However, if you have a good RP idea that trumps the difference in power IMHO.
(RP Note: the elf's long life span really opens up some options for RP. For example, you could have been trained at the Academae, but years and years ago before the current leaders came to power... could give you a different perspective... though this will not really come into play too much in the campaign as written)
(RP Note: Another good opportunity to tie a summoner (and particularly the malconvoker) into the campaign is by having ties to the Hellknights who are known to summon demons to train against.)
Wizard
Specialist: Conjurer
Variant: Rapid Summoning (Unearthed Arcana pg 60)
(RP Note: Since you loose the ability to summon a familiar with this variant it might be a lot of fun to come up with a story on how you had an imp familiar but lost it, or it gained free will and escaped, perhaps your former imp familiar bought it's freedom by teaching you these esoteric secrets or whatever... just fluff, but that is a lot of the fun of the game)
Variant: Enhanced Summoning (Unearthed Arcana pg 60)
Alternative Class Feature: Focused Specialist (Complete Mage pg 34)
Skills:
-Max out Bluff
-Languages - as a summoner these are very worth taking. Abyssal and Infernal are must haves, but I would also take Ignan, Terran, Auran, Aquan and Celestial.
-I would have points in both Knowledge: Planes and Arcana
-Spellcraft is good for any caster, more so for you since you will want to do some planar binding at higher levels
-Concentration
For the actual build the feats aren't all that important to make you a great summoner, so you have a lot of choices, the only two you really need are Augment Summoning (class feature now) and Spell Focus (conjuration) to get into the PrCs.
Conjurer 3 / Master Specialist 4 / Malconvoker 5 / Master Specialist +6
This campaign will probably end around Master Specialist 8 or so, but if you get to 10 you will be casting summons as a swift action... not bad, but not needed for the build.
Some links that you will find VERY useful:
Mastering the Malconvoker
The Conjurer's Handbook
Note: Do not forget that you are a conjurer, not just a summoner. That gives you a lot of the best battlefield control spells as well as some of the very good damage spells (orbs) on your spell list. You have teleports and even mage armor in there... it really is one of the most versatile schools.
Mastering the Summoned Monster - a comprehensive guide
Summoning Handbook
Legal 3.5 Summonable Monster List
Anyway... hope that all helps. Other than being a human, that is the caster I would play in Curse of the Crimson Throne as I think it would be a very effective build, a lot of fun to play tactically, and have some great role-playing tie ins to the campaign and city in general.
Sean Mahoney
one short aside to Sean's "build" post. The long lifespan of an elf allowing to harken from another "age" of the Acadamae faces am unexpected problem in some of the specifics of said leadership.
Let's put it this way - the leadership is in its very particular way rather unchanging. or in all honesty - it is still the same leadership^^
And of course, since the campaign kicks off at 1st level, what would an elf of several dozen years of seniority have done in between ? And still remain at first level ? Might become a tad complicated
@dorgan
I never meant this as a debate between our different takes on the Acadamae and the town of Korvosa. Actually my poor, ravaged, singed and pock-marked Korvosa and especially the Acadamae in it differ vastly from the material as written - which incidentally I liked, but it did not fit my campaign plans. Sorry Mr. McArtor^^
But the OP asked about the viability of his planned class without giving anything away about how his GM intended to run the town. or what if anything, he was planning to do differently - and based on the official sources available "elf summoner + Acadamae graduate" jars quite a bit.
As for Korvosa's size and population - that appears quite reasonable to me, given that in many tenements there are several floors of flats and rooms and each house shelters several families. Actually Korvosa, as mapped, is much more sizable and less densely populated than actual medieval towns in Europe. Old Lübeck in Northern Germany, which seems a fair comparioson in style, business, climate and location was far more compressed and had around 20k population in its most prosperous age as a center of the Hanseatic League.
Actually, the idea of the "elf from the earliest days of the Acadamae" could actually work. Your elf was an arch-mage, involved in Ye Olde Days of Pre-Acadamae founding. Sadly, the other founders in their descent into devil-binding and what not decided that you were a threat. They energy drained you almost to death, cursed your memories away, stole almost all your stuff and sold you into slavery. A century and a half later your owner's family died in some wierd catastrophy in some burg called "Sandpoint" - so you engaged in "working passage" until you came across a newer Acadamae graduate to apprentice yourself to. Another century comes and goes, you finally finish your (re)apprenticeship, said wizard dies of old age, you collect your meager spellbook and belongings and returned to Korvosa after a long, long absence. You were mugged in an alley one night a few weeks ago, so getting some payback on the vicious old man and his pack of little knee-stabbers has become your decided course of action when the campaign begins ...
Another thought when making an elf would be to ask the DM for the line by line break down of history of Korvosa (in the guide) for the years that you have been alive (minus anything spoilery of course). Then go through and answer "what was I doing when..." style questions about the events. Read up (if you can) on things your character might know from first hand experience (the different monarchs for example). Incorporate any and all of that into a background.
Sean Mahoney
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Since the OP is specifically asking about a build, I will hazard one.
Thank you for the build Sean! I am definitely going to try it.
So, human might be a better choice? One of the things I was working on is that most people might not expect an elf to thrive in an environment like the Acadamae. There could be some interesting RP opportunities in playing an elf who is not chaotic and quite at home in an institution such as the Acadamae.
So, human might be a better choice? One of the things I was working on is that most people might not expect an elf to thrive in an environment like the Acadamae. There could be some interesting RP opportunities in playing an elf who is not chaotic and quite at home in an institution such as the Acadamae.
Human is a better choice mechanically. Human nets you a bonus feat and another skill point per level.
Elf on the other hand gives you a -2 Con (always scary... we love HP) and a +2 Dex (something that you don't use too much). Really none of the racial abilities of the elf add to what you are doing here. Favored class could be good, but since you are not looking at a build that uses it, it doesn't really help.
All that said though, it isn't a huge deal. If you have an RP idea and it will make the character more fun for you to play, then I would highly suggest you go with elf. Really the RP portion trumps the build in my own personal gaming philosophy.
Sean Mahoney
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Thanks to you all again, this has been a really helpful thread...
Okay, I have been considering my options and will play a human. The bonus feat is cool for rodents and, of course, no penalty to Constitution is attractive.
I am thinking of an enchanter rather than a conjurer. The build above is awesome, yet I have never really tried to play specialist in enchantments!
Any tips on a build?
Thanks to you all again, this has been a really helpful thread...
Okay, I have been considering my options and will play a human. The bonus feat is cool for rodents and, of course, no penalty to Constitution is attractive.
I am thinking of an enchanter rather than a conjurer. The build above is awesome, yet I have never really tried to play specialist in enchantments!
Any tips on a build?
Spell Focus and Spell Penetration, presuming an AP is in the offering. You'll need the increase in save DCs as well as the ability to punch through SR for an Enchanter.
Enchantment dovetails nicely with Illusion as well.
Recommended spells (PF Beta):
- 1st Level: All 3 of the enchantment ones: Charm Person [temporarily helpful NPCs], Hypnotism [stare at my candle flame] and Sleep [lights out, c'bow bolt to the face]. Illusion packs the spiffy spells Color Spray, Disguise Self and Ventriloquism.
- 2nd Level: Hideous Laughter is the king of the Enchantment spells for this spell level. Handy illusions include Hypnotic Pattern [free sneak attacks for the rogue], Invisibility [send the rogue ahead to not get eaten - hopefully], Magic Mouth [mock thy enemies], Minor Image [vision and sound - wewt!] and Mirror Image [greatly improves your ability to not get blasted into chum].
- 3rd Level: Deep Slumber [yes, lights out some MORE!], Heroism [go forth mighty-thewed warrior and cleave mine enemies!], Hold Person [oops - immobilized? Too bad ... *coup de gras*] and Suggestion [These are not the droids you are looking for] are all excellent Enchantment spells. Particularly good illusions include Displacement [whiff! whiff!] and Major Image [Yes, that really is a truly rancid cesspool, why do you ask?].
- 4th Level: Charm Monster [Og is my friend!], Confusion [which way did he go ... which way did he go ...] and Crushing Despair [fear me, weak-minded fool!] are excellent Enchantments. Illusory Wall [camp behind one], Greater Invisibility [combined with magical mobility, rain brain-wrecking horror on your foes], Phantasmal Killer and Rainbow Pattern [lots of free sneak attacks for the rogue] all rock!
- 5th Level: Feeblemind [a wizard/sorceror/bard turned into an imbecile is a bad guy that is useful as dog food], Hold Monster [*grrkk!*], Mind Fog [you weak-minded fools!] and Symbol of Sleep [I sense a disturbance ... zzzzzzz...] are the Enchantments. Mirage Arcana [No really, there's a fort here], Seeming [sneak into many places] and Shadow Evocation [eat fireball!] are all nice.
- 6th Level: Greater Heroism [I said HEW mine enemies, dammit!] and Mass Suggestion [I suggest you all go home now] will do wonders. Mislead is your escape spell, Shadow Walk is your group travel spell and Veil is your spiffy new infiltration spell.
- 7th Level: Insanity and Power Word Blind are the two big guns, although all 4 are spiffy Enchantments. Project Image should be regularly awesome, while Simulacrum has ... uses.
- 8th Level: Irresistable Dance is the quintessential Enchanter's melee touch spell - and at 15th level, you should be able to deliver it pretty readily. Power Word Stun is your other gauntlet from the Enchantment school - against a somewhat soften up foe, this can stun them long enough to get the warrior and stabbity-death characters to plant them six feet under. Scintillating Pattern and Greater Shadow Evocation are the illusion heavies from this spell level, especially the pattern.
- 9th Level: Nothing makes your rogue's day like Mass Hold Monster. Nothing makes YOUR day like a well-timed Power Word Kill. Weird is the preferred method of annihilating a bunch of weak-minded critters in one fell swoop.
Improved Initiative and Eschew Materials are also highly recommended. If you want to be tightly-focused, you could consider going with one of the funkier sorcerer bloodlines picking pretty much just the spells from the two schools. The Aberrant, Fey and Undead bloodlines come to mind ...
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I am thinking of an enchanter rather than a conjurer. The build above is awesome, yet I have never really tried to play specialist in enchantments!
Any tips on a build?
Beat your save DC into the ground, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus are a must have. If you play a varisian with some tatoos you might want to see if you could get your GM to let you play a Red Wizard (though its sort of campaign specific) and go for Tatoo Focus as well. RotRL player's guide has another feat you could take (Varisian Tatoo I think its called) if you need something else to convince him.
Go roleplay heavy as well, if you can. This is often easier for a Sorcerer than an Enchanter since they gain Bluff as a skill to back up their magic. Sorcerers IMHO work better as Enchanters than the actual Enchanter Wizard specialist. So my tip is to go Sorc if you can.
There are certain conditions that will either grant you a bonus to some DCs (such as suggestion, except that its actually a penalty to the target's save in that case :p) or give you a penalty (such as Charm Person when they're threatened).
There are going to be a lot of effects that will support your Enchantment ability as well. Do not get rid of Necromancy if you can avoid it. Many of the spells in Necromancy (such as Ray of Enfeeblement) can be a huge asset to the spells of an enchanter.
Not sure what schools you should give up though. That's always a matter of taste. I'm sure someone else might have a suggestion though.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Turin, by 1 second no less!
EDIT 2: Are you playing 3.5 AP or is it converted to Pathfinder?
EDIT: Ninja'd by Turin, by 1 second no less!
EDIT 2: Are you playing 3.5 AP or is it converted to Pathfinder?
^_^ You made excellent points as well, Studpuffin. The AP is CotCT, so your rules set query is worthy to know. Me, I'm being a mild jerk and just referencing PF Beta. :)
Hrmm... while I have been interested in playing an enchanter type character at some point, I haven't really looked into it all that much.
From what I hear, you are often just as good going with a beguiler if that is the type of character you want, but honestly I don't know.
I can tell you that enchantment has some big limitations in that it is kind of a save or die sort of school. If you pull off a spell it is great, but if they save your action didn't do anything. As a result you will want to do EVERYTHING you can to buff up the DC on your spells.
Additionally, there are a lot of creature types that enchantment spells won't work on: Constructs, Undead, Oozes, Plants, and Vermin with a few other minor types. As you get higher up in levels you will also start facing more and more creatures that are immune to mind-effecting spells, meaning that you loose effectiveness in those situations.
Some builds that look interesting to me:
Enchanter 3/Master Specialist 10/Fatespinner 5
Enchanter 3/Master Specialist 3/Wild Soul 10/Master Specialist +2
Beguiler 20
However, I would encourage you to do some reading up on this and let me know what you come up with. Here are some links that you will likely find very useful:
The Enchanter's Handbook
New Beguiler's Handbook
Treantmonk's Guide to Wizard Spells: God's Tools - Part 7: Enchantment
Anyway... let me know what you come up with!
Sean Mahoney
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How about the variant enchanter from Unearthed Arcana? You gain some social skills in that variant and other abilities.
I am thinking of dumping evocation and may be illusion. Transmutation is way too useful and you must have conjuration as a student of the Acadamae.
Necromancy is one of the larger schools in the Acadamae, so not too keen to make it a forbidden school. Also, as it has been said, there are some really useful spells.
Can you be a sorcerer and a member of the Acadamae? I was under the impression you could only be wizard?
How about the variant enchanter from Unearthed Arcana? You gain some social skills in that variant and other abilities.
I am thinking of dumping evocation and may be illusion. Transmutation is way too useful and you must have conjuration as a student of the Acadamae.
Necromancy is one of the larger schools in the Acadamae, so not too keen to make it a forbidden school. Also, as it has been said, there are some really useful spells.
Can you be a sorcerer and a member of the Acadamae? I was under the impression you could only be wizard?
You can only join as a wizard. It is a wizards' academy.. but you coukld of course be a test subject there^^
Enchanter is a strong choice for the AP and tails nicely with the Acadamae, which is reputed (besides all the other stuff) for its strong enchantment-graduates.
But do make sure, that you have variety in spells and some backup tactical spells for those days and encounters where enchantments are useless. Say with the undead or constructs, or where language barriers hamper them. So, depending on whether you play with teh Spell Compendium or not, making evocation a forbidden school might hamper you.
But do make sure, that you have variety in spells and some backup tactical spells for those days and encounters where enchantments are useless. Say with the undead or constructs, or where language barriers hamper them. So, depending on whether you play with teh Spell Compendium or not, making evocation a forbidden school might hamper you.
While I completely concur with Vikingson that you need a variety of spells that allow for strategies other than just enchantment, I think evocation would likely still be one of my banned schools. In general Conjuration still has quite a few direct damage spells, specifically the orbs, that do just fine. Additionally (though at a much higher level), shadow evocation (illusion) will allow you to do any of the evocation spells. It hurts to loose anything, but evocation tends to be one of the easiest to deal with.
It's not as popular in the optimization community but Necromancy tends to often be another choice for me. In the case of an enchanter, you will find that many of the same creatures that are immune to your enchantments are immune to the save or dies so common in the necromancy, with the notable exception of undead. That being the case, if you could use the necromancy you can probably just use your enchantment which you will be better at anyway.
Illusion is another one that bears looking at as a banned school (though I wouldn't do so if you are banning evocation). It is a very powerful school but it is very dependent on how your DM allows the spells to work and your creativity with the spells. If you read over the image spells and are not struck by tons of inspiration on how to use this in many situations then this may not be the school for you (and I lump myself into that school of thought).
Divination is not one you can ban, so no need to even look while making this decision. Likewise, enchantment is the specialty you are looking at, so it isn't really in play here.
Abjuration is one that most people could live without, with the notable exception of the dispel magic line. In my mind it, and the protective spells (but that could just be the way I play), are too much to give up.
Conjuration and Transmutation are the most flexible and prolific schools, so I would highly recommend never banning them.
Sean Mahoney
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^_^ You made excellent points as well, Studpuffin. The AP is CotCT, so your rules set query is worthy to know. Me, I'm being a mild jerk and just referencing PF Beta. :)EDIT: Ninja'd by Turin, by 1 second no less!
EDIT 2: Are you playing 3.5 AP or is it converted to Pathfinder?
You're not being a jerk at all. :D If anything, we are both guilty of making assumptions!
@OP & Sean
I normally don't like to give up Necromancy due to only a few small low-level spells, mainly Ray of Enfeeblement as I said above :P. This is why I like building Red Wizards, who don't have to give the school up too early.
Evocation is a hard one to give up for many, but Conjuration can easily make up for it. Another thing that I have to point out about Conjuration attack spells is that they often aren't bothered by Spell Resistence. They'll go right through. Blast of Flame (Spell Compendium, me thinks) can be outright devastating as a result.
Another thing that I have to point out about Conjuration attack spells is that they often aren't bothered by Spell Resistence. They'll go right through. Blast of Flame (Spell Compendium, me thinks) can be outright devastating as a result.
When I ran the Shackled City adventure path for my group the only spells that I really felt made things a ton easier or bordered on broken were the Orb series of spells. The fact that they are simply not bothered by Spell Resistance made a HUGE difference in many of the encounters. Don't get me wrong, I think they are actually well balanced spells and not broken, but there was always that little DM piece of me that was a little disappointed the SR on the creatures wasn't even a thought.
Sean Mahoney
I normally don't like to give up Necromancy due to only a few small low-level spells, mainly Ray of Enfeeblement as I said above :P. This is why I like building Red Wizards, who don't have to give the school up too early.
Don't get me wrong, there isn't really any school of magic that I LIKE to give up. They all have such wonderful toys in them. But, you have to make a choice. A persons play style and what they are specializing in makes a big difference. For my money, an enchanter's top three choices would be Evocation, Necromancy, and Illusion. I would likely not want to give up both Evocation and Illusion due to shadow evocation... which leave necromancy. It's a great school, really, it just got shortest straw in my book. (I also think it works best for builds focusing on ray spells which would look very different than an enchanter).
Sean Mahoney
How about the variant enchanter from Unearthed Arcana? You gain some social skills in that variant and other abilities.
Well, looking at your choice from Unearthed Arcana is interesting:
-Domain Wizard (pg 57)-
This is basically "be a specialist without the drawback." It would actually be a really strong choice for an enchanter. You get an extra spell per level that must be filled with domain spells. Taking enchanment domain means that you would have things like Charm Person and Tasha's Hideous Laughter... things you would probably be taking anyway. The cherry on top is that you have no banned schools. (note: a lot of DMs do not allow this variant). However, you are not a specialist... so you don't qualify for anything that requires one. No cohort enchanter and no master specialist... may still be worth it though.
-Martial Wizard (pg 59)-
If you are planning on going into prestige classes quickly (like Master Specialist at 4th, for example) this is actually a really good choice. Basically you are choosing to trade Scribe Scroll for any feat on the fighters bonus feat list. The typical choice here is Improved Initiative, which is a great choice for an enchanter. Arguably if you are the first person to go in a combat, you may not get the minus for trying to charm someone in combat.
-Enchanter: Cohort (pg 61)-
Getting a cohort is always a good deal. If your DM is fine with you having a second character, this is a great deal. You can have a body guard (though you can always just dominate one) or whatever else strikes your fancy. Two characters are always more powerful than one. However, you will need to be comfortable playing with two characters and your game group needs to be ok with this. If you would be taking the Leadership feat anyway, you may want to skip this one as they aren't great at stacking. If your group is good with the Leadership feat though and you want to take other feats instead of Leadership, a cohort sure beats up on a familiar. (RPing an apprentice to your character could be a lot of fun; however, I seem to recall something about not being able to graduate from the acadamae until you bind an imp to your service... not sure if that means you either take improved familiar or wait until higher level and use something like planar ally).
-Enchanter: Social Proficiency (pg 61)-
Not getting your bonus spells hurts... a lot. However, if you are the face of the party then you will need these skills. I guess if you really wanted these though, I would go back to recommending just taking a beguiler or even a bard. I would pass on this one.
-Enchanter: Extended Enchantment (pg 61)-
I am normally quite excited by anything that gives me free metamagic on my spells. However there are two big drawbacks here. First is the loss of those darn spells again... I love those spells! They shouldn't be taken! lol... Second is that the ability scales with class levels... I would those as just Enchanter levels... so if you bail at 4th for something like Master Specialist or another PrC later they stop building.
Sean Mahoney
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Don't get me wrong, there isn't really any school of magic that I LIKE to give up. They all have such wonderful toys in them. But, you have to make a choice. A persons play style and what they are specializing in makes a big difference. For my money, an enchanter's top three choices would be Evocation, Necromancy, and Illusion. I would likely not want to give up both Evocation and Illusion due to shadow evocation... which leave necromancy. It's a great school, really, it just got shortest straw in my book. (I also think it works best for builds focusing on ray spells which would look very different than an enchanter).
Sean Mahoney
Oh, I meant what I said in the "Its not perfect, but it really is a great support school" kind of way. Too each their own, I just happen to think that the low level necromancy spells are hard to give up. The high level ones I can do without, but most of my campaigns (both the ones I play in and run) still utilize a lot of low level spells even into the higher levels. Necromancy spells keep a lot of their versatility from low levels, even if the higher level ones have to be munchkin'd to be useful. If it comes down to it though, Necromancy could also be used to offset the loss of Evocation the same way that Conjuration can. There are a number of area attack necromancy spells or direct attack spells (dessicating bubble and horrid wilting are the first to come to mind).
Illusion would actually be the one that I'd give up because I can still have my evocation spells instead of casting the illusions. The double saves on "shadow" category spells makes them weak in my opinion as well.
But, to each their own. Its clear we don't play our casters exactly the same. Its pretty neat getting such a different perspective on the issue.
Illusion would actually be the one that I'd give up because I can still have my evocation spells instead of casting the illusions. The double saves on "shadow" category spells makes them weak in my opinion as well.
But, to each their own. Its clear we don't play our casters exactly the same. Its pretty neat getting such a different perspective on the issue.
I completely agree that it is great that there are a bunch of ways to play the casters and whichever you like to play is the 'right' one to play.
So what would you give up along with illusion?
Sean Mahoney
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Illusion would actually be the one that I'd give up because I can still have my evocation spells instead of casting the illusions. The double saves on "shadow" category spells makes them weak in my opinion as well.
But, to each their own. Its clear we don't play our casters exactly the same. Its pretty neat getting such a different perspective on the issue.
I completely agree that it is great that there are a bunch of ways to play the casters and whichever you like to play is the 'right' one to play.
So what would you give up along with illusion?
Sean Mahoney
I'd probably give up Transmutation. Almost all the effects of this school can be duplicated by other classes in the party or taken in potion form. You just have to be willing to depend on someone else or on your wallet a little more than many munchkin builders are willing to do.
EDIT: I've got a guy I used to play with regularly (new horizons beckoned for him, as in we don't play with him because he can be a bit of a jerk) who refuses to depend on anyone for anything. He only grudginly plays fighters in what we call "Opposite Games". He also cannot stand having odd ability scores. Talk about a Munchkin.
This guy refused to play any kind of specialist wizard, just in case he needed a spell. Then he'd mostly prepare evocation and necromancy spells. It left me baffled as the GM, but got me thinking about how to cover bases reliably while learning to specialize. Transmutation is one of those schools that seemed like a perfectly good one to remove since its accesible in so many other ways.
It left me baffled as the GM, but got me thinking about how to cover bases reliably while learning to specialize. Transmutation is one of those schools that seemed like a perfectly good one to remove since its accesible in so many other ways.
And that is really the key to specializing, figuring out what you can either do some other way well enough or just live without.
It also really depends on what your role in the party is. I tend to play a wizard as someone who controls the battlefield and buffs their allies. Blasting is very much a secondary consideration for me. If, however, I am being relied on to be the primary damage dealer in the party, I would likely make a very different character.
It's also interesting that people choose not to specialize (I am seeing the same thing on another thread I am watching). To me the choice isn't what you want to loose, it is are you willing to cast fewer spells during the day. My answer is typically "no," so I specialize. (I am also a heavy scriber of scrolls to up my spells available).
That said, I typically balk at going all the way and taking focused specialist (with the exception of the Malconvoker build I posted above) as three schools banned gets harder. In fact, I do love me a Diviner for the ability to only have one banned school (I tend to use a lot of divination anyway, so having one/level to cast is not too bad).
As for the munchkin thing... I don't get why that bothers people so much. Does it matter that someone has even stats for full bonus if they also have a good story for their character? If they don't have a good story for their character does it make it ok if they are not optimized? I guess I see the roleplaying aspects and optimizing aspects as two different things. In fact, I think a character who made life choices to be good at something (which is basically what builds are) makes a lot of sense in roleplaying. (him being a jerk of a player is a VERY different issue). But I digress...
Sean Mahoney
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It left me baffled as the GM, but got me thinking about how to cover bases reliably while learning to specialize. Transmutation is one of those schools that seemed like a perfectly good one to remove since its accesible in so many other ways.And that is really the key to specializing, figuring out what you can either do some other way well enough or just live without.
It also really depends on what your role in the party is. I tend to play a wizard as someone who controls the battlefield and buffs their allies. Blasting is very much a secondary consideration for me. If, however, I am being relied on to be the primary damage dealer in the party, I would likely make a very different character.
It's also interesting that people choose not to specialize (I am seeing the same thing on another thread I am watching). To me the choice isn't what you want to loose, it is are you willing to cast fewer spells during the day. My answer is typically "no," so I specialize. (I am also a heavy scriber of scrolls to up my spells available).
That said, I typically balk at going all the way and taking focused specialist (with the exception of the Malconvoker build I posted above) as three schools banned gets harder. In fact, I do love me a Diviner for the ability to only have one banned school (I tend to use a lot of divination anyway, so having one/level to cast is not too bad).
As for the munchkin thing... I don't get why that bothers people so much. Does it matter that someone has even stats for full bonus if they also have a good story for their character? If they don't have a good story for their character does it make it ok if they are not optimized? I guess I see the roleplaying aspects and optimizing aspects as two different things. In fact, I think a character who made life choices to be good at something (which is basically what builds are) makes a lot of sense in roleplaying. (him being a jerk of a player is a VERY different issue). But I digress...
Sean Mahoney
Don't get me wrong, the Munchkin thing doesn't bug me at all. I'm of the school that build optimization and role play fun aren't incompatible. You can build a super awesome character stat wise and still have a blast roleplaying him. Alternatively you can suck at both, but I digress as well... :p
Another buddy of mine who I wish still played with us, but college beckoned in his case, used to run Evokers as most of his characters. He was telling me about his new D&D group at his college, who had never seen an evoker played before. They'd only ever played wizards like you described, buffers and controllers. They were surprised when he routinely ended combat before their fighters and paladins could even engage in combat.
Diviner is usually the specialist I play, actually. I think we can both agree that it's nice seeing the DM's face after throwing a curveball while only giving up one school to do so.
>:D
I think if I were going to play a blaster I might look at playing a sorcerer rather than an evoker... but who knows... I would have to actually sit down and do the work on that one.
In fact I think a group that contained a sorcerer blaster/counter speller and a wizard controller/buffer would be a frighteningly powerful thing to see.
Sean Mahoney
I think if I were going to play a blaster I might look at playing a sorcerer rather than an evoker... but who knows... I would have to actually sit down and do the work on that one.
In fact I think a group that contained a sorcerer blaster/counter speller and a wizard controller/buffer would be a frighteningly powerful thing to see.
Sean Mahoney
Just ask two of my sons ... *sniffles* ... they make me so proud...
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I think if I were going to play a blaster I might look at playing a sorcerer rather than an evoker... but who knows... I would have to actually sit down and do the work on that one.
In fact I think a group that contained a sorcerer blaster/counter speller and a wizard controller/buffer would be a frighteningly powerful thing to see.
Sean Mahoney
Sorcs are good as blasters as well, but Evokers get their blasting spells a level earlier. That's about the only difference.
You are correct in your assumption that a "blaster" and "buffer" would be good together. Typically I see the combo as "wizard" and "cleric" in my group though. I see a lot of people complain about CoDzilla, but I've never actually seen the problem arise in any of my groups.
I'm currently playing a Cleric in a Shackled City game who specializes as a buffer. The party is far more powerful with him consistently buffing the group instead of just himself. Again, my play-style seems to show a major departure from the norm.
That said, combining the effects of a "buffer" with a Sorcerer can be particularly devastating. One to cast spell enhancers such as Eagle's Splendor, the other to lay the smack down. Its a good combo.
Quick Question: Do you use Complete Mage in any of your games? I've found that the Reserve Feats have changed the basic nature of my spellcasters away from hard-core Evokers and Diviners and back to a basic non-specialist wizard.
Quick Question: Do you use Complete Mage in any of your games? I've found that the Reserve Feats have changed the basic nature of my spellcasters away from hard-core Evokers and Diviners and back to a basic non-specialist wizard.
We play with all WotC books and licensed material available. I personally haven't used the Reserve feats for any of my casters, but I like the concept of them. That said, I found that after about level 5 I am not running out of spells anyway (unless there is a really long slog through a dungeon).
I did have a wizard who played in the Shackled City game I ran who took one and liked it quite a bit.
In general there are other feats that win out for me.
Sean Mahoney
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Quick Question: Do you use Complete Mage in any of your games? I've found that the Reserve Feats have changed the basic nature of my spellcasters away from hard-core Evokers and Diviners and back to a basic non-specialist wizard.We play with all WotC books and licensed material available. I personally haven't used the Reserve feats for any of my casters, but I like the concept of them. That said, I found that after about level 5 I am not running out of spells anyway (unless there is a really long slog through a dungeon).
I did have a wizard who played in the Shackled City game I ran who took one and liked it quite a bit.
In general there are other feats that win out for me.
Sean Mahoney
I was commenting on the fact that the Reserve Feats have made specializing in a school of magic less desirable now. You can get a bunch of reserve feats and almost never run out of abilities. Makes the extra spell per level for the cost of two schools look increasingly harsh, at least IMHO. I still do specialize though, just kind of wondering.
@OP Will your GM allow you to make a character with Reserve Feats? If so I suggest taking them.
They are one of the most banned style of feats in my local gaming groups. I allow them, but many GMs I play with don't.
Hrmm... interesting. I guess I see them a lot like the warlock. It seems overpowered at first look, but in play ends up not being quite as good.
They are great for those encounters that your group can easily mop up, but you don't really want to waste any significant power on.
I am a bit shocked that people are banning them though. Who knows though, when I first joined my gaming group they thought the monk was overpowered... lol.
Sean Mahoney
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Hrmm... interesting. I guess I see them a lot like the warlock. It seems overpowered at first look, but in play ends up not being quite as good.
They are great for those encounters that your group can easily mop up, but you don't really want to waste any significant power on.
I am a bit shocked that people are banning them though. Who knows though, when I first joined my gaming group they thought the monk was overpowered... lol.
Sean Mahoney
I don't quite understand the ban either. I don't know if they like the 15-minute-a-day adventure day or what. Many of these GMs are complete 3.0 holdovers too, no plans of converting to Pathfinder RPG or 4e. I geuss they fear change, and thus shall keep their bushes.
Many of these GMs are complete 3.0 holdovers too, no plans of converting to Pathfinder RPG or 4e. I geuss they fear change, and thus shall keep their bushes.
For right now I think I fall into the camp of people planning on staying with 3.5. I will buy PRPG and see if it will be possible to convert my 3.5 splat books very easily or if it will be a pain. If a pain, I think I will either just stick with 3.5 for a long time or look into switching to 4E. We'll see...
Sean
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Many of these GMs are complete 3.0 holdovers too, no plans of converting to Pathfinder RPG or 4e. I geuss they fear change, and thus shall keep their bushes.For right now I think I fall into the camp of people planning on staying with 3.5. I will buy PRPG and see if it will be possible to convert my 3.5 splat books very easily or if it will be a pain. If a pain, I think I will either just stick with 3.5 for a long time or look into switching to 4E. We'll see...
Sean
I'll convert to PFRPG once I'm done running my current CotCT game. For now, 3.5 is where I'm gonna stay.
EDIT: The delicious coincidence of the posting of this message is that within a few seconds of it being posted the mail truck arrived with my brand new shiney PFRPG book! HUZZAH!