Perfect!
Trapfinding is open to everyone, rogues get a bonus to it, and they can get a talent to autonotice traps. This is just what I asked for!
I was pretty excited about the class, anyway, but this seals the deal.
Now we just have to see whether there have been some more cool new talents, and we're golden.
Oh, and traps and poisons look great, too.
No surprises here, for those who are familiar with the Beta.
Merisiel out of the shadows ...
.
Me, too.
Or getting into the bath. With me. I wonder if she does the swallow gig (i.e. a rogue who uses her sexual wiles to gather information), because I totally have important information. Really!
Rogues just got better. (^-^)
A couple little new/ nice bits. No surprises in combat, a few little tidbits for non-melee. Trap spotting talent sort of keeps rogue as the king of trapfinding assuming they want that role. Overall, all the cool bits of the rogue from the beta seem to have been kept and a little polish added. Very nice.
I really like the poison mechanic (though it's largely unchanged) and the new traps look like they are going to be pretty cool.
No more need to declare a dodge buddy !
And apparently no more need to burn a swift every round to dodge WOOT!
Can everyone find magic traps though? Just wondering, I actaully love the new trapfinding mechanic, and if not its easy come up with a homebrew feat to open that ability up.
Overall, great stuff, but hell I'm a rogue fan anyway!
Can everyone find magic traps though? Just wondering, I actaully love the new trapfinding mechanic, and if not its easy come up with a homebrew feat to open that ability up.
Overall, great stuff, but hell I'm a rogue fan anyway!
The wording pretty clearly separated mechanical traps out so I would guess that rogues still have the monopoly on detecting magic traps. That said unless there is some change in the rules wizards can use detect magic at will and that's a pretty solid indicator of traps. I kind of figure that's ok though.
Now that all characters can locate and disarm mechanical traps regardless of the DC, the trapfinding ability now grants a bonus on Perception checks to notice traps and Disable Device checks equal to half the rogue's level.
I'm not really fond of the word "mechanical" though because I'm pretty sure he means "non-magical". I don't consider contact poison to be mechanical at all but it probably falls into that category.
Now if only someone would provide the preview for the Shadowdancer ...
And apparently no more need to burn a swift every round to dodge WOOT!
No more need to declare a dodge buddy !
I'm not sure. It only says: Never again will you need to remember to designate a single foe.
In 3.5 i was vs. one foe. In beta it was vs. all foes.Can we get a yes on "no swift action"?
Can everyone find magic traps though? Just wondering, I actaully love the new trapfinding mechanic, and if not its easy come up with a homebrew feat to open that ability up.
Overall, great stuff, but hell I'm a rogue fan anyway!
The wording pretty clearly separated mechanical traps out so I would guess that rogues still have the monopoly on detecting magic traps. That said unless there is some change in the rules wizards can use detect magic at will and that's a pretty solid indicator of traps. I kind of figure that's ok though.
Now that all characters can locate and disarm mechanical traps regardless of the DC, the trapfinding ability now grants a bonus on Perception checks to notice traps and Disable Device checks equal to half the rogue's level.I'm not really fond of the word "mechanical" though because I'm pretty sure he means "non-magical". I don't consider contact poison to be mechanical at all but it probably falls into that category.
I'm not sure I am so happy.
I hope there is a feat so other classes can find and disable magical traps. otherwis you are stuck with a rogue anyway. Or one class have to pick one level rogue.
edit: But autonotice traps it great :-)
This rogue and the new poison/trap rules completely satisfy me.
Everybody can find traps now, huzzah! But rogue is better of course! :D
Excellent class that refines the great beta job. Thanks Jason.
why not just let all clases detect and disarm all traps? I'm a little surprised/disappointed not all classes can.
Edit:
Lettig all classes detect all traps (not only mechanical traps) would not break balance:
Lettig all classes disable them would not break balance
So I really hope there is a feat so other classes can find and disable magical traps.
....but the new rogue...is just GREAT: Thanx Jason and the rest of you :-)
Director of Games
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And apparently no more need to burn a swift every round to dodge WOOT!
No more need to declare a dodge buddy !
I'm not sure. It only says: Never again will you need to remember to designate a single foe.
In 3.5 i was vs. one foe. In beta it was vs. all foes.
Can we get a yes on "no swift action"?
You could.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I hope there is a feat so other classes can find and disable magical traps. otherwis you are stuck with a rogue anyway. Or one class have to pick one level rogue.
edit: But autonotice traps it great :-)
True, it would be nice for PFS to have that feat in the Core Rules, but it is very easy to houserule.
ARCANE PERCEPTION
You can sense and find traps of a magical nature.
Prerequisites: Perception one rank, Perception as a class skill or Skill Focus (Perception)
Benefit: You can find and disable magical traps as a rogue.
Normal: Only rogues can find and disable magical traps with a Perception check.
etc. 3 seconds! And thats only if the rules work like that!
That said, traps aren't exactly as big a part of the game as combat or anything, so you could survive without, it might be harder, but you might be better as a party at combat for using say a barbarian instead, thats the tradeoff.
You could.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Nice :-)
I hope there is a feat so other classes can find and disable magical traps. otherwis you are stuck with a rogue anyway. Or one class have to pick one level rogue.
edit: But autonotice traps it great :-)True, it would be nice for PFS to have that feat in the Core Rules, but it is very easy to houserule.
** spoiler omitted **
That said, traps aren't exactly as big a part of the game as combat or anything, so you could survive without, it might be harder, but you might be better as a party at combat for using say a barbarian instead, thats the tradeoff.
DD is perhaps not a huge problem. There are ways to fix that. The big problem is to detect magical traps. But I guess you can use detect magic.
At least we should get no flames over this preview. Very little changed from Beta, and there's not a lot of change from 3.5. Then again, honestly, the rogue has always been one of the most popular classes as is.
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At least we should get no flames over this preview. Very little changed from Beta, and there's not a lot of change from 3.5. Then again, honestly, the rogue has always been one of the most popular classes as is.
WTF Rogues get a d8 hit die now this is BS!!!1
;)
I like it. The movement-related abilities increase the tactical quality of the Rogue.
I´m still concerned about traps. The problem with traps in D&D third edition, for me at least, was that at a certain level rogues would automatically find and disarm them. The guy who always plays rogues in my campaigns has always taken Skill Mastery as his first rogue special ability at 10th level, after which traps became trivial and after some time I just stopped including them.
Has that problem been adressed in some way? The sample trap in the preview would have been found and disarmed automatically by any rogue with Skill Mastery at level 10, reducing its CR from 10 to 0. Is there any way to increase the DCs for finding and disabling traps?
Giving rogues automatic checks to find traps, and a big bonus to find and disarm them seems to only make those challenges more trivial, IMO.
"Finally, trap spotter gives Merisiel a Perception check to notice a trap the moment she moves to within 10 feet of it."
Could this be one o the best things that has happened to the game since they invented skills?
No more:
Player: I search this square and that...and that one. And I search the door.
GM: Bang. You didn't chech that square.
This will speed up the game. Nice :-) (and so will the new PA)
stuff
Not all rogues pick Skill Mastery at level 10. Many pick slippery mind or improved evasion.
Battle rogues may pick crippling strike or opportunist. And now some may pick dispelling attack. And as I said above, this will speed things up.
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Now that all characters can locate and disarm mechanical traps regardless of the DC, the trapfinding ability now grants a bonus on Perception checks to notice traps and Disable Device checks equal to half the rogue's level.It also grants rogues the ability to disarm magic traps.
This clears the question of mechanic vs. magic traps.
"Finally, trap spotter gives Merisiel a Perception check to notice a trap the moment she moves to within 10 feet of it."
Could this be one o the best things that has happened to the game since they invented skills?
Yes, it could. After all, it was one of my suggestions.
The guy who always plays rogues in my campaigns has always taken Skill Mastery as his first rogue special ability at 10th level, after which traps became trivial and after some time I just stopped including them.
Has that problem been adressed in some way? The sample trap in the preview would have been found and disarmed automatically by any rogue with Skill Mastery at level 10, reducing its CR from 10 to 0. Is there any way to increase the DCs for finding and disabling traps?
If you want to delay stuff like improved evasion and crippling strike, then sure, knock yourself out.
You can always adjust the spot and disable DCs. Or take away skill mastery.
At least we should get no flames over this preview. Very little changed from Beta, and there's not a lot of change from 3.5. Then again, honestly, the rogue has always been one of the most popular classes as is.
There were big changes from 3e to Beta: d8 HP is very nice (and logical - never understood while the priests got more HP than the rogues), and of course there are rogue talents! And sneak attacking almost everyting!
stuffNot all rogues pick Skill Mastery at level 10. Many pick slippery mind or improved evasion.
Battle rogues may pick crippling strike or opportunist. And now some may pick dispelling attack. And as I said above, this will speed things up.
You can always adjust the spot and disable DCs. Or take away skill mastery.
Let´s see then. The sample trap has a Perception DC of 25. A rogue with maxed out Perception has a skill modifier of at least +18 at level 10, which is before counting in any feats, magic items or possible positive modifiers from his wisdom score.
Skill Mastery therefore makes this trap utterly trivial, to the point where it is not a challenge at all anymore. Even without Skill Mastery, the rogue will notice the trap with a chance of at very least 65%, making it quite easy to deal with.
KaeYoss suggestion of adjusting the Perception and Disable Device DC's is, of course, the recourse to that. My question simply is if this mechanic is supported by the rules somewhere in the final game? IIRC, it took Wizard until PHB II ( or was it Dungeonscape or DMG II? ) to come up with that same solution.
Another problem in that same vein would be for me a CR 20 trap which utility is limited by its Perception DC being limited to 34 ( which is, again, utterly trivial at the level it is supposed to be a challenge ), as it was with D&D 3.5. Are there any methods in the Pathfinder RPG to make it more complicated for the partys rogue to find and disable a trap like this than two skill checks which are ludicrously easy for him?
Example with Wyvern - fighter gets hit on round one immediately makes his first fort save. Round two wyvern misses and fighter makes his second fort save - poison is cured. Round three wyvern hits again..I assume poison is reset and DC is still ony 17? If this is the case, I imagine my spider encounter would not have changed as the dwarf would have just been hit and cured several times over the course of the battle...but at least there is some potential for challenge.
This is exactly my concern/thoughts, and I hope it is very very very clear in the Final rules.
E.g. If there are 6 goblin archers, one shoots you with a poison arrow, DC 11, and you make the save. Then (in the same round), subsequently 3 more of them hit, and you make the save to each. Was the DC increased at all? IS it only if one save fails that are the rest of the hits at higher DC? Or would it only be if two saves failed, leading to two poisons the next round.
Also, if you do have two poisons in you, and make a save, are both gone, or just one? (This I expect will be in the rules, I'm just worried about the above really).
Great preview all around, figured there would be little changes, but neat to confirm the Trapfinding change, my extreme trap-focused rogue player will be happy, and the rest of the hihg-perception group will be glad to be able to find mechanical traps.
Skill Mastery therefore makes this trap utterly trivial, to the point where it is not a challenge at all anymore. Even without Skill Mastery, the rogue will notice the trap with a chance of at very least 65%, making it quite easy to deal with.
When I see a Rogue that actually takes Skill Mastery I'll start complaining about him being able to use his class feature effectively... oh .. wait.
I'm not sure I am so happy.I hope there is a feat so other classes can find and disable magical traps. otherwis you are stuck with a rogue anyway. Or one class have to pick one level rogue.
edit: But autonotice traps it great :-)
Well not really. A detect magic should give you a clue something is amiss, and a dispell magic should remove it. You could live without a rogue now more then ever.
This rogue is pretty much beta and I once thought that was plenty good, still kinda of do. The change to trapfinding is to me a small but highly needed improvement. So over all I'd say it's a good set of changes we are being shown this week.
I believe that the new philosophy is to make it actually possible for classes other than Rogues to find the DC 25 trap.
Ya know, "let's make it possible to have an efficient party without a Rogue" etc.
It's an old question: Do we allow characters to be better than others at their signature abilities? And if so, do we want non-specialists to have a decent chance of success (and make it a breeze for specialists) or do we want to challenge spezialists (and doom non-specialists to failure)?
But I don't think the game goes and limits the DCs. If you want a fiendishly devious trap with a perception DC of 50, you go and use it. CR and DC aren't related that closely. It always depends on all the factors:
You can, after all, use a master trapsmith to create a trap that is virtually impossible to spot, but that will only hit you with a needle (no poison, only 1 point of damage), or you can have a deep pit with deadly horror scorpions at the bottom - and put up warning signs about the pit and put a sturdy plank over it and put it in a cul-de-sac.
Oh, and why does Merisiel have Gnome?
I'm looking but I can't find were it says only rogues can find magical traps. It says they alone can disarm them but if others can find them well again a dispell magic should do the job for disarming the trap meaning you don't need a rogue in your group though there are certainly reasons to want one.
Seems you will want a skill monkey in the group, but it wont have to be a rogue. A bard or ranger could do the basics if needed.
Oh, and why does Merisiel have Gnome?
Everyone knows gnomes make the best swimwear.....
I´m still concerned about traps. The problem with traps in D&D third edition, for me at least, was that at a certain level rogues would automatically find and disarm them. The guy who always plays rogues in my campaigns has always taken Skill Mastery as his first rogue special ability at 10th level, after which traps became trivial and after some time I just stopped including them.
Has that problem been adressed in some way? The sample trap in the preview would have been found and disarmed automatically by any rogue with Skill Mastery at level 10, reducing its CR from 10 to 0. Is there any way to increase the DCs for finding and disabling traps?
Giving rogues automatic checks to find traps, and a big bonus to find and disarm them seems to only make those challenges more trivial, IMO.
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of traps; they either reward slowing the game down to a crawl with Search checks every 5 feet. But some people love them; go figure.
Yeah, Yeah… another great preview .
We want the book already!!
Seriously though, it looks really good. I like the poison rules even more than I already did, especially the variable damage and various onset times. It appears you made an effort to make each poison have it's own character.
Only one nitpick though: her stats say she's carrying 8 daggers, but I count at least 11. :)
Why does Merisiel have a flat-footed AC of 15? Doesn't Uncanny Dodge mean she can't be caught flat-footed?
I love that all characters can find/disable traps and rogues just get a bonus, like rangers and Track. There are 2 members of our group we just don't allow to play rogues anymore, so it's nice not to need one. As mentioned by others, detect/dispel magic deals with magical traps.
For a tangentially-related fluff question, though, how would you narrate a rogue disabling a magic trap? With a mechanical trap, when they succeed, I can always describe them jamming the mechanism or blocking a hole or something, but the other day, one of my players disabled a glyph of warding and I was left stammering, "You... uh... disarm the trap."
Where does the +12 HP come from? She's getting +6 from her CON, but the other +6?
Only one nitpick though: her stats say she's carrying 8 daggers, but I count at least 11. :)
A) Three of the "daggers" are only decorative (Everyone's wearing fake hilts this season); or
B) One of the daggers is an intelligent item and has cast mirror image.
Where does the +12 HP come from? She's getting +6 from her CON, but the other +6?
Favored class?
Why does Merisiel have a flat-footed AC of 15? Doesn't Uncanny Dodge mean she can't be caught flat-footed?
No; she can be caught flat-footed, but she retains her Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
So that means that either:
(a) her flat-footed AC is wrong and it should include her Dex bonus, or
(b) Paizo is too loosey-goosey about the word "flat-footed" and often use it when they mean "has lost Dex bonus to AC".
Take your pick.
Why does Merisiel have a flat-footed AC of 15? Doesn't Uncanny Dodge mean she can't be caught flat-footed?No; she can be caught flat-footed, but she retains her Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
So that means that either:
(a) her flat-footed AC is wrong and it should include her Dex bonus, or
(b) Paizo is too loosey-goosey about the word "flat-footed" and often use it when they mean "has lost Dex bonus to AC".Take your pick.
Hm, so if Dodge is no longer a swift action but "always on," does she retain her Dodge bonus as well? Or does your init turn have to have come up to use it?
Hoping for a clarification from Jason on this....
Hm, so if Dodge is no longer a swift action but "always on," does she retain her Dodge bonus as well? Or does your init turn have to have come up to use it?
Here's what the rules (3.5 and Pathfinder Beta) say:
"Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses."So if you keep your Dex bonus, you keep your dodge bonus.
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No; she can be caught flat-footed, but she retains her Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
So that means that either:
(a) her flat-footed AC is wrong and it should include her Dex bonus, or
(b) Paizo is too loosey-goosey about the word "flat-footed" and often use it when they mean "has lost Dex bonus to AC".Take your pick.
It's common practive in Paizo stat blocks to list the character's AC without Dex and dodge bonuses as their flat-footed AC, irrespective of the character's possession of uncanny dodge. It's something they've done consistently since the beginning, so it's not an error. I can see their point, since it's the difference between having an aide-memoire for uncanny dodge, and actually having a single place you can glance at for AC when the character's denied Dex through feinting or whatever.
Oh, and why does Merisiel have Gnome?
Because she and Lini needed a common language to talk about Valeros's butt without him understanding them, and he knows elvish.