I believe that Tanarukk are listed as CR2 in MoF (a 3E source ). I can't seem to locate my copy.
I have a hard time seeing an evil outsider with 5 HD, SR and other stuff being CR 2 like a bugbear, imp or dretch.
Did I miss some errata or something? Tanarukk seem like a solid CR 3 to me.
Does anything about them need modification for PRPG?
BTW, I'm using the data from RoF.
I have RoF, which presents them as a race, not as a monster. However, it looks like a "stock" Tanarukk would get, let's see..
atk: battleax +8 (1d8+2)
full atck: Battleax +8 (1d8+2), bite +2 (1d6+1)
AC 15, SR 14
26 hp
That looks like CR2 to me, albet a very meaty CR2 with those hitpoints, unless I'm mistaken. I assume he isn't wearing armor (most outsiders don't).
A tanarukk with one warrior level, a good suit of armor and a two-handed weapon would easily be CR3.
Yup I put together some Tanarukk Barbarian 1 guys for Saturday and I think it will be a bloody fight. These guys are a manly CR 3 and 4 of them will make a stimulating CR 7 battle I think. The 3 good saves and full BAB for the 5 outsider HD are handy too.
Yup I put together some Tanarukk Barbarian 1 guys for Saturday and I think it will be a bloody fight. These guys are a manly CR 3 and 4 of them will make a stimulating CR 7 battle I think. The 3 good saves and full BAB for the 5 outsider HD are handy too.
Yes, their defenses (SR, great saves, misc resistances) become a preportionally bigger deal as their offense increases.
Hero stats would likewise make them a lot nastier. I'd be tempted to call an elite-array barbarian (with cr-appropriate equipment) CR4ish; I could be wrong though. It's somewhere around 3-4.
All the weird half-breeds in Races of Faerun always left a big impression on me, mainly for the in-depth descriptions and evocative illustrations. Gorgeous book.
Tanarukk will be a reoccurring theme so I guess I'll get to see how this plays.
Sorry to horn in here guys, but I have a question. Is there an actual formula to the calculation of CR? I'd always just figured it was kind of an arbitrary guesstimate come up with based on how much of a PC groups resources would be used up fighting one--but the way you guys are talking it sounds like there's actually some hard and fast rubrick set down somewhere. How do you figure out something's CR?
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There's no hard formula, we're just being insufferably sure of ourselves. ^_^
You really do just have to guestimate based on a creature's damage-dealing capacity and his staying power, as compared to other monsters.
I feel like it's fairly easy (easy enough to eyeball) when you're working between CR1 and CR4, and increasingly trickier beyond that, but I could always be wrong.
I feel like it's fairly easy (easy enough to eyeball) when you're working between CR1 and CR4, and increasingly trickier beyond that, but I could always be wrong.
Exactly, I just recently was trying to find an interesting creature to throw against my players; they are 9th level, so I thought of a CR12 or CR13 as a BBEG. It should have been a Construct (due to the particular adventure I was brewing), so I started to look through various sources.
I finally found in MM2 the Dragonflesh Golem (AKA Drolem), which was stated as CR13. It was a rather logical choice (the party is on Eberron, digging through an ancient ruin which dates to the Age of Demons, when Fiends fought against Dragons - so, a guardian created with the corpse of an ancient enemy was fitting AND an 'eye-for-an-eye' choice made by the Fiends). I looked at its statistics (being 3.0, it had to be converted in 3.5 and then PF Beta)... and stopped.
Then I looked at it again.
And started to laugh.
How is it supposed to be only CR13 a 30HD golem with the full-attack routine of a Huge Dragon (1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, 1 tail slap), a Golem Magic Immunity, and (on top of all that) an Int score <> 0 - so, a creature eligible to 15 feats, even Epic ones, due to its BaB +22 ?!?...
The 'closest' thing comparable - the Iron Golem, another CR13 Golem - is not even close (BaB +12, 18 HD, 2 Slams, no Feats - only the Breath Weapon is a plus, since the Drolem has not any Breath Weapon)...
This monster is at least CR15, IMHO - or a 'border-line' CR14, but not close to a CR13...
So, yes, judging the CR of a creature can be extremely difficult; my advice is, never trust blindly the little number written, but use it only as a guideline - a really loose guideline...
Sorry to horn in here guys, but I have a question. Is there an actual formula to the calculation of CR? I'd always just figured it was kind of an arbitrary guesstimate come up with based on how much of a PC groups resources would be used up fighting one--but the way you guys are talking it sounds like there's actually some hard and fast rubrick set down somewhere. How do you figure out something's CR?
I have a thread by a similar title in Candlekeep; table 4-4 in 3.5 MM 1 is alluded to.
This monster is at least CR15, IMHO - or a 'border-line' CR14, but not close to a CR13...
I follow you right up to here. On one hand, if you think they only got the CR off by a level or two (15 as opposed to 13) why would that result in the kind of uproarious laughter you're talking about? I mean that's a pretty fine tweak. You're looking at an average character difference of maybe +2 to hit and maybe +10 hit points, right? That just doesn't seem like that much of a difference to me. At least not an "oh come on" degree of difference.
On the other hand, you're talking about a 30 hit die creature, right? I mean off the cuff I would think a hit die is the monster version of a level--are we talking about a 30th level character then? That would freak me out too, but maybe the thing is just a big lumbering construct, so it has high HP but it's scaled back in other ways, right? Nope, the thing is a hybrid of the best parts of a dragon and a golem AND it has twice as many hit dice as it's supposed to--which technically should make it BETTER than just a regular monster with 30 hit dice, right?
So why aren't we talking about a CR of like 31 for this thing? Why is a 13 hilarious, but a 15 reasonable?
I really don't get CR at ALL.
I know it's a foolish dream, but I still dream that someday they'll figure out that the best way to run CR is this:
Equal CR means that if a single character fights a single monster at a certain CR, it'll be a pretty even match--it'll be unsure who will win and who will lose. Now I'm not saying mathmatically perfect 50% chance, because heck you don't even get that in the core classes (a paladin versus a druid for example) because the different powers always skew the power scale. All I'm saying is that as a DM I would really love to be able to take a 10th level monster and say...oh okay so that's about as tough as a 10th level character.
Would you put four monsters against four PC's of the same level? Maybe if it was a tough end fight and you wanted the outcome to be a tossup--but usually you'd go a few levels lower, same as you would with leveled NPCs. Have the PC's fight monsters that are powerful enough that its a fun fight, but that aren't likely to wipe the party.
The point is you'd know what CR really meant. It wouldn't be some nebulous amalgam of hit dice and powers run up against some weird rubrick of "percentage of character resources spent" for a party of four characters of a given level.
Yeah. Wouldn't that be nice.
Equal CR means that if a single character fights a single monster at a certain CR, it'll be a pretty even match--it'll be unsure who will win and who will lose.
Actually, that's exactly what CR does mean. :)
Or, roughly what CR does mean. In reality it means that four creatures of a given CR are a pretty even match for four PCs of the same level (virtually nothing in D&D is balanced for one-on-one, but same concept). When the D&D rules talk about a "threat" (i.e 1 monser who's CR equals the party level), they're actually giving the PCs four-on-one odds.
Because the PCs are usually supposed to win, after all.
However, believe it or not, one level 10 character (gear included) is considered about as powerful as 2 level 8 characters. This is because levels represent exponential power gain (your damage goes up, your to-hit goes up which increases your damage going up, your hitpoints go up which increases how long you'll be there dealing damage, your saves go up which increases how long your hitpoints hold out....).
So, a CR15 labeled as CR13 is actually twice as powerful as he should be. 2 points of CR can easily mean the difference between "hard fight" and "party wipe".
After DMing for a few years, I'm not sure if I buy that math (I might be inclined to say that 1 CR 10 = 2 CR 7, not 8), but it's never been considered anything more than a guestimate anyway; nor should it be.
However, believe it or not, one level 10 character (gear included) is considered about as powerful as 2 level 8 characters. This is because levels represent exponential power gain (your damage goes up, your to-hit goes up which increases your damage going up, your hitpoints go up which increases how long you'll be there dealing damage, your saves go up which increases how long your hitpoints hold out....).
So, a CR15 labeled as CR13 is actually twice as powerful as he should be. 2 points of CR can easily mean the difference between "hard fight" and "party wipe".
Exactly, this is why I said that such a creature should have been at least CR15, if not more.
And sadly, CR horribly off-scale (too high or too low) is a commonplace in MM2 (which was 3.0, however - the Drolem COULD have been a CR 14 in 3.0, since it had no Feats although it had an Intelligence score), but also in the last splat MMs (MM4 and MM5 - MM3 was better, IMHO) - in those manuals there are listed some CR 8 creatures with an AC of 28, and some other CR8 creatures with 8 attacks at +16 (I have not the manuals on hand now, so I'm not really precise here)...
So, yes, adjudicating the CR of creatures can be a serious pain sometimes... especially if you are making a random encounter 'on the fly' and you trust the CR listed on the manual (only to have your party wiped three or four rounds later due to a 'CR miscalculation'...)
All of this always IMHO.
Ok, now that I am at home and could look at the manuals, I can be more precise:
Voor, Dreadful Lasher (MM4):
Melee 4 tentacles +24 (1d8+11) [reach 30 ft.] and 2 claws +23 (1d8+5) plus rend (2d8+16) [reach 15 ft.]
CR 9
Phantom Ghast Ninja (MM5):
AC 28, Touch 24, Flat-Footed 23
CR 7
They are even worse than I remembered...
I feel like it's fairly easy (easy enough to eyeball) when you're working between CR1 and CR4, and increasingly trickier beyond that, but I could always be wrong.Exactly, I just recently was trying to find an interesting creature to throw against my players; they are 9th level, so I thought of a CR12 or CR13 as a BBEG. It should have been a Construct (due to the particular adventure I was brewing), so I started to look through various sources.
I finally found in MM2 the Dragonflesh Golem (AKA Drolem), which was stated as CR13. It was a rather logical choice (the party is on Eberron, digging through an ancient ruin which dates to the Age of Demons, when Fiends fought against Dragons - so, a guardian created with the corpse of an ancient enemy was fitting AND an 'eye-for-an-eye' choice made by the Fiends). I looked at its statistics (being 3.0, it had to be converted in 3.5 and then PF Beta)... and stopped.
Then I looked at it again.
And started to laugh.
How is it supposed to be only CR13 a 30HD golem with the full-attack routine of a Huge Dragon (1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, 1 tail slap), a Golem Magic Immunity, and (on top of all that) an Int score <> 0 - so, a creature eligible to 15 feats, even Epic ones, due to its BaB +22 ?!?...
The 'closest' thing comparable - the Iron Golem, another CR13 Golem - is not even close (BaB +12, 18 HD, 2 Slams, no Feats - only the Breath Weapon is a plus, since the Drolem has not any Breath Weapon)...
This monster is at least CR15, IMHO - or a 'border-line' CR14, but not close to a CR13...
So, yes, judging the CR of a creature can be extremely difficult; my advice is, never trust blindly the little number written, but use it only as a guideline - a really loose guideline...
An unintelligent creature, such as golems, deathbugs and animated dead - do not get ANY feats save those designated in the stat block as (B) for bonus feats. A 30 HD construct has a mere +15 BAB "by the rules". It is unintelligent and I presume has no ranged attacks at all. The primary reason I see for the low CR-to-HD ratings of golems, giant vermin and the like is a combination of lack of multiple movement modes, lack of ranged attack ability and low BAB for HD. Combined with the generally superior mobility available to higher level parties - along with the very inexpensive Golembane Scarab from the DMG - makes even "true" golems and similarly high HD, unintelligent foes pretty easy to put down.
Also, as the MMs were released after the first they did release errata - although rarely revising CR - and I believe the CRs in the later books were in large part gauged to account for the greater range of feats, spells and magic items nominally available as the accompanying release of splat books.
YMMV of course. :)
An unintelligent creature, such as golems, deathbugs and animated dead - do not get ANY feats save those designated in the stat block as (B) for bonus feats. A 30 HD construct has a mere +15 BAB "by the rules".
This is true, but as I stated above, a Dragonflesh Golem has an Intelligence score of 4...
PF Beta, Table 12-9 (page 296):
"Type______Hit Die__BaB______Good S.T.__Skill Ranks*
Construct___d10___HD x3/4_____— _____2 + Int mod per HD**
* As long as a creature has an Intelligence of at least 1, it gains a minimum of 1 skill point per Hit Die.
** Creatures with an Intelligence score of “—” gain no skill points or feats."
Also, if you look at the D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update Booklet here, there is a section (Monster Manual II Update) with the updated statistics (from 3.0 to 3.5) of the 'Golem, Dragonflesh' (page 7 of the 'single' PDF, page 33 of the 'complete' PDF), and there are 10 feats (as per 3.5 - one feat every 3 levels/HDs).
And there are no mentions to a change in CR...
It's a similar situation with the psionic blue scorpion in Sandstorm. Quite how a CR 3-5 creature has an ML 11 teleportation power as a swift action I do not know!
You could make a CR1 creature with a swift-action teleportation power. At CL/ML20. It's still possible for a first-level party to kill such a creature with only moderate risk/effort.
The hard limits on a creature's CR are damage, defense/saves and HP. Even a disproportionately-high attack bonus (for its CR) might be okay if it's damage isn't that high (and it doesn't/can't have PA).
Well, a full attack followed by a swift teleport away (without any AoO) and coupled with good reach when the melee characters approach does not bode well for any reasonably low-level party!
Equal CR means that if a single character fights a single monster at a certain CR, it'll be a pretty even match
Which character? A fighter? A wizard? A rogue? A cleric? A bard? A commoner? Will he get to prepare for this fight?
Unless you make every class essentially the same, it's not going to be that easy. A lot of creatures will fare a lot better against some characters than others.
Will you pit a rogue against a fire elemental? Poor rogue will be eaten alive, so the CR is enormous? Or a water mage against the elemental? He'll cone of cold it into oblivioun, sot he CR is low?
Or do you use the average?
Well, a full attack followed by a swift teleport away (without any AoO) and coupled with good reach when the melee characters approach does not bode well for any reasonably low-level party!
It doesn't bode well for -any- party. =p
But if its full-attack is +2/+2 for 1d6 damage, and it only has ten hitpoints, a first level party should be able to handle it.I like that kind of strategic advantage because it's a fairly even adjustment to the difficulty of the fight. It's a little meaner once the fighters get full attacks (or don't get them, as the case may be) and conversely becomes a bit tamer if dimensional anchor or a similar tactic is available, but otherwise it's just as effective at level 20 as it is at level 1.
Edit: To clarify, though, I'm not saying that this doesn't make the monster more powerful; I have no idea what your psionic scorpion looks like, but if a creature has the attacks/defenses of a CR 5 grunt AND an at-will teleport it's probably not CR 5.
An unintelligent creature, such as golems, deathbugs and animated dead - do not get ANY feats save those designated in the stat block as (B) for bonus feats. A 30 HD construct has a mere +15 BAB "by the rules".
This is true, but as I stated above, a Dragonflesh Golem has an Intelligence score of 4...
PF Beta, Table 12-9 (page 296):
"Type______Hit Die__BaB______Good S.T.__Skill Ranks*
Construct___d10___HD x3/4_____— _____2 + Int mod per HD*** As long as a creature has an Intelligence of at least 1, it gains a minimum of 1 skill point per Hit Die.
** Creatures with an Intelligence score of “—” gain no skill points or feats."Also, if you look at the D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update Booklet here, there is a section (Monster Manual II Update) with the updated statistics (from 3.0 to 3.5) of the 'Golem, Dragonflesh' (page 7 of the 'single' PDF, page 33 of the 'complete' PDF), and there are 10 feats (as per 3.5 - one feat every 3 levels/HDs).
And there are no mentions to a change in CR...
Uh ... wow. Yeah, then I would concur that it is under-CR'd by 2, or at *least* 1, depending on the actual party.
I've not looked at the old books in ... a relatively long time now. :)
Which character? A fighter? A wizard? A rogue? A cleric? A bard? A commoner? Will he get to prepare for this fight?
Well I guess I'm operating under the assumption (perhaps wholly fallacious) that there's some underlying sense to character level. Somehow, I figure, all of the above classes--the commoner excluded, are concidered to be game balanced relative to each other. Different powers, sure. Different advancement rates in different areas--but ultimately when you're making a party of different characters that their average level means something regardless.
If it DOES mean something, wouldn't it be nice if that--whatever it was that level meant--was related in a linear way to CR. Make monsters like classes, take into account their strengths and weaknesses the same as you do when making character classes and adjust the CR accordingly.
That way when you compare a certain CR monster to a character of the same level it's at least as relevant as when you're comparing two character classes (say a wizard and a rogue) of the same level.
wouldn't it be nice if that--whatever it was that level meant--was related in a linear way to CR. Make monsters like classes, take into account their strengths and weaknesses the same as you do when making character classes and adjust the CR accordingly.
It is. You can. However.
That way when you compare a certain CR monster to a character of the same level it's at least as relevant as when you're comparing two character classes (say a wizard and a rogue) of the same level.
The problem with this statement isn't that monster CR is off. Classes are balanced to be part of a group of four with four or five encounters per day; monsters are balanced to fight alone and to participate in one encounter per day.
You can make such comparisons (one of the first things I do when building a 'grunt' monsters is to compare him to a barbarian of the same level) but they'll never be completely reliable, nor should they be. Monsters are different from characters and need to be balanced in completely different situations; many monsters would be way too good as PCs, just as most classes make awful solo BBEGs.
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However, believe it or not, one level 10 character (gear included) is considered about as powerful as 2 level 8 characters. This is because levels represent exponential power gain (your damage goes up, your to-hit goes up which increases your damage going up, your hitpoints go up which increases how long you'll be there dealing damage, your saves go up which increases how long your hitpoints hold out....).
So, a CR15 labeled as CR13 is actually twice as powerful as he should be. 2 points of CR can easily mean the difference between "hard fight" and "party wipe".
Exactly, this is why I said that such a creature should have been at least CR15, if not more.
And sadly, CR horribly off-scale (too high or too low) is a commonplace in MM2 (which was 3.0, however - the Drolem COULD have been a CR 14 in 3.0, since it had no Feats although it had an Intelligence score), but also in the last splat MMs (MM4 and MM5 - MM3 was better, IMHO) - in those manuals there are listed some CR 8 creatures with an AC of 28, and some other CR8 creatures with 8 attacks at +16 (I have not the manuals on hand now, so I'm not really precise here)...
So, yes, adjudicating the CR of creatures can be a serious pain sometimes... especially if you are making a random encounter 'on the fly' and you trust the CR listed on the manual (only to have your party wiped three or four rounds later due to a 'CR miscalculation'...)
All of this always IMHO.
Just wanted to mention something......
The Monster Manual 2 had a conversion done by WotC to bring it up to 3.5 standards. It is a several page document that lists each monster in the book and the changes needed to make it 3.5. I don't remember where I got except that it was on WotC website somewhere and that I downloaded it and printed it and now keep it in my MM2. It makes it easier to use the monsters in the book and seems to some of them a bit CR-wise. (although that Dragonflesh Golem really isn't much different except for +30 hp, DR15/adamantine, Cleave, Great Cleave, Hover, Imp Bullrush, Imp overrun, Imp Sunder, Power attack, Toughness X2, Wingover, Blindsight becomes blindsense (finally one downgrade!) and the slight changes for magic immunity from 3.0 to 3.5.The f-ed up part is that for anyone to (by the rules)try to figure out how to fight one and which magicks have what effect on them, someone needs a DC 40 arcana. Any rational DM would just let the party ascertain the general golem info without that, but by the rules....
Yeah this dude is a monster! I would say CR 15-16 at first glance, but I also think back to when my group was messing with level 13... The melee dudes were cranking out around 80-100 damage a round each with haste going. Even with DR coming out that is 45-55 damage a round per meleeist you have and the meleeist has around 100 hp so could take 42.5 average damage that the creature does 2 times before dropping. An AC of 23 for the golem is giving the power-attacking 2-handed weapon fighter a lot of easy hits and a good amount of extra damage.....
Conclusion, it may look tough but it really won't last against a decent level 13 party for more than 2-3 round and it's damage output probably won't drop any of the party before they finish it, especially if the creature spreads out it's attacks among several PCs that are around it and a mage hits it with a fire or cold spell to slow it so it doesn't get full attacks.
It looks way tougher than it actually is.
Well I guess I'm operating under the assumption (perhaps wholly fallacious) that there's some underlying sense to character level.
There is.
Somehow, I figure, all of the above classes--the commoner excluded, are concidered to be game balanced relative to each other.
There are, mostly.
Different powers, sure. Different advancement rates in different areas--but ultimately when you're making a party of different characters that their average level means something regardless.
Absolutely. The point is "party", as the weird fish guy said. A party of average level 10 will find a CR 10 critter challenging.
A single level 10 character might have a 50/50 chance against a CR 10 enemy, because they are, in general, evenly matched in power.
But it's a bit like rock, paper & scissors. If you have the right powers, you might devastate the enemy. If oyu have the wrong powers, he might devastate you.
Some CR 10 monster might be a decent challenge for a level 10 fighter, a level 7 mage, or a level 15 rogue.
Or it might be the other way around.
And talking about rogues: Sneak attack. Works a lot better if you have a team to help you.
And that's mostly true for everyone. A party is a group of specialists working together.
Of course you could change that. Make all classes the same, except for the powers, who are also mostly the same except for some details. But they have a word for that: boring.
Tanarukk also are in the odd position of having 8 skill points per hit die, only the skills perception, stealth, and intimidate.
Shouldn't they have at least as many skill choices as skill points?
Oooh, are we bashing the MM2? Can I bring up the Adamantine Clockwork Horror? Or is that cheating? I mean, it can use Implosion, disintigrate and Mordenkainen's disjunction at will.
CR 9.
Yeah, the MM2 is messed right up as far as CR goes.
Just.......wow!