Not gonna get into the off topic much about paladin shouldn't be LG, but the truth is in the core rules paladin is LG and nothing else. As many think it should be. Nothing wrong with you house ruling it.
Now something else. The setting book outlines paladins damned well and does not allow for CG paladin gods. No pathfinder book does. The is fact all godly paladins are one step. Does it say it word for word no does it show it yes. Stop using loop holes to say your right show proof. Sow me one PF CG paladin and I'll say I was wrong
Now if it was a house game this would not be an issue but it is not. I was just telling fletch that the GM was within his rights to call foul and invalidate his PC and fletch has zero proof his paladin is legal.
Now as for FR well he asked if there was any CG paladin gods I said yes in FR there is ONE she is the exception not the rule. It goes so far as to say she is the exception . AT that point we did not know it was for a PFS game. Once we did anything FR became pointless
Stop using loop holes to say your right show proof. Sow me one PF CG paladin and I'll say I was wrong
Why don't you show proof? Everything you've shown is circumstantial evidence, and you are the one trying to make a restriction that is not spelled out in the rules. As for showing a PF paladin of a CG god -- why don't you show us a PF paladin of a NG god? The only actual PF paladin we've seen is Seelah, who is a paladin of Iomedae, a LG deity.
Well NG gods are on the list in the PFCS.
Iomedae=LG
Erastil=LG
Torag=LG
Sarenrae=NG
Abadar=LN
Irori=LN
Shelyn=NG
Also in one of my above post I showed in a player guide about Sarenrae. No where is any thing published about a CG paladin god.
Well NG gods are on the list in the PFCS.
Yes, and we've already established that the lists in the PFCS are not all-inclusive since no two of them share the same set of deities.
Yep that list is what is used for every published book to date. one and all.I am not sure where you get no two have the same list from?
LoF PG pg 5
. Sarenrae supports an especially active knighthood in the region, though her warriors are more altruistic, seeking to aid those who settle in dangerous lands and keeping the roads safe from ravening beasts. Of special note are the crusaders of Solku’s Dawn Vigil, who serve their goddess in fighting
so yes NG. Evey single book with any info on paladin orders or godly paladins use that list. As gods change by region so not every god on that list is active in every region
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Stop using loop holes to say your right show proof. Sow me one PF CG paladin and I'll say I was wrongWhy don't you show proof? Everything you've shown is circumstantial evidence, and you are the one trying to prove a negative. The burden of proof is always on the person trying to show the negative, as it's far harder to do. As for showing a PF paladin of a CG god -- why don't you show us a PF paladin of a NG god? The only actual PF paladin we've seen is Seelah, who is a paladin of Iomedae, a LG deity.
Not true. We've also seen a paladin of Saerenrae in the Saerenrae write up (Pathfinder 20)and one for Adabar in his deity write up (Pathfidner 8).
We have not seen Paladins outside this group, but we also haven't seen other Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good or Neutral Good Deities written up yet.
Three Paladins, all worshiping LG, NG and CG gods. There was no such paladin example in the Cayden write up.
Yep that list is what is used for every published book to date. one and all.
Fine. Since you're reduced to babbling nonsensically (seriously -- what on earth are you saying there and what does it have to do with the post you're responding to?), I'll take another tack.
You claim that only the deities listed in the PFCS are allowed choices for Paladins in the PF setting.
And, yet, at the same time, you state that any deity that is LG, NG, or LN can have paladins.
There's a problem there, though. There are deities in PF (and, indeed, in the PFCS) who are LG, LN, and NG who are NOT listed in the "most common deities followed by paladins" list (note, again, that it is not "only deities followed by paladins" -- it is "most common deities"). In the campaign setting itself we have Kurgess, the NG deity of competition, sport, and self-sacrifice, with the domains of Community, Good, Luck, Strength, and Travel.
Is it, then, your stance that Kurgess has no paladins, despite having self-sacrifice as part of his portfolio and having the very paladin-like domains of Good, Community, and Strength?
If that is your position, then there's nothing much I can say to you. You clearly are reading far too much into a list that, by its very definition, is designed to be non-inclusive.
If that is not your position, then you must surely see that there is room for other, less common, deities in the list. Furthermore, you should see that there are no two-step deities listed because they could not possibly be common patrons for paladins. Not because it's impossible -- are you really going to tell a God what he is and isn't allowed to do? -- but because they're rare, and rare is by definition the opposite of most common.
said the same stuff
What I am doing is saying what you do not wish to hear. Kurgess is not a conman god. Hice is is not listed under common gods. He is however one step and could have paladins. The list is of Common gods. Hince ya know being called common.Your notice PFCS does not go into detail about the lesser known gods.
I am not saying others can not have paladins what I am saying is they MUST be one step. every thing in the PFSC support that nothing anywhere in print supports your claim
You then say the list does not count but the list confirms only one step gods have paladins. Evey book published with any paladins do not have paladins of a god more then 1 step.
They allow you a way out by not having a pardon god.
A CG God would not give a damn if you broke your code for the greater god what do they care, They want good not always rules.So you bend the rules , so you lied so you used poison it was for the good right? Chaotic gods by ya know being chaotic do not really care all that much for by the book.So a LG paladin who did fallow Cyden would not stay LG or a paladin for long
Also it should be noted in gods and magic it gives his church members " are usually clerics, with a small number of bards, adepts, and druids."
Well let's see what gods and magics does say. I will be skipping evil gods here. If paladins are not metions I will state what classes are as part of the clergy
*Abadar=Paladins are rare in the church, as their zealous push for good doesn’t sit perfectly within Abadar’s more balanced approach to ethics
Calistria=bards or clerics
Cayden= Clerics,bards, adepts, and druids
Desna—cleric, bard, ranger, or the rare druid
*Erastil=clerics, with a few druids and paladins in the mix
Gorum= clerics. And a rare few battle-druids
Gozreh clerics, but about a tenth are druids, with a handful of weather-hunters (rangers) and adepts
*Iomedae= clerics or paladins, though she has many ranger followers serving the church
Irori= clerics and monks in almost equal numbers, with only a few druids
Nethys-cleric or sorcerer ,hedge wizard, witch doctor, adept, or folk ritualist
Pharasma’s=clerics, diviners, or “white necromancers”, though especially skilled midwives and hedge wizards
*Sarenrae= clerics, though there are many paladins and rangers and a smattering of sun-druids and sun-bards
*Shelyn=clerics or bards, though she has a few paladins, druids, and rangers
*Torag=clerics, with perhaps 10 percent being paladins or dwarven defenders
Now we have no info on the lesser known gods but if we look at the list of gods who allow paladins we have
Abadar=LN
Erastil=LG
Iomedae=LG
Sarenrae=NG
Shelyn=NG
Torag=LG
Odd looks very close to the ones I listed before don't it. And look all are one step. No where in this book does it talk of paladins for any other god. No where
A CG God would not give a damn if you broke your code for the greater god what do they care,
This is a very interesting point. If a LG paladin of a CG deity converted over time to, say, NG, by the rules he'd lose his paladin abilities. It'd be hard to justify that RP-wise, I think. Why would your god take away your powers when you become more like him?
It's an interesting debate. I'd argue that the lawful aspect of the paladin stems from his own personal code and failure to live up to his own code is what causes the crisis of faith and the loss of paladin powers. That's how I'd play it, anyways. Like the rest of my arguments on this thread, it all depends on how the player roleplays it.
Unless the rules or setting specifically forbids an idea (I said no drow PCs!), I think it's in in the spirit of the game to allow an idea as long as the player puts in the work to explain how it comes to be. That's a core strength of a tabletop RPG.
So a LG paladin who did fallow Cyden would not stay LG or a paladin for long
Not true. I think I've given enough examples of how a character could enjoy Cayden's "lifestyle" and still maintain a lawful outlook. The idea that a paladin must be a rigid, by-the-book, lawful stupid in word and deed, 24-hours-a-day nutcase went out with 2nd edition.
Not true. I think I've given enough examples of how a character could enjoy Cayden's "lifestyle" and still maintain a lawful outlook. The idea that a paladin must be a rigid, by-the-book, lawful stupid in word and deed, 24-hours-a-day nutcase went out with 2nd edition.
No your really could not live the "lifestyle " and be a LG paladin. They do not bend. Cyden would not care if you fallowed the law, the code does. Cyden would not care if you lied, the code does. Cydeon would not care if you opposed a lawful king who had a few laws you just did not like, the code does. Cyden thinks being drunk is good, a paladin can not accept daily drunkenness. Or maybe ever.
A CG god really does not get all the code bs really. Good is good after all. Cyden does not have paladins because he would not hold the code. And really you have to. A LG mindset just does not jive with a CG god, or people really. LAWFUL is orderly and by the book at times. Cyden is to hell with the book.
He just does not match the paladin mind set at all. Sure he may have one or 2 good this but he is a reckless merc at heart and a paladin is not.
I just want to say if you want to use it in a home game cool. But in a PFS game many GM's will rule it not valid. As it comes off as a CG paladin.
So what you're saying, in summary, is that we disagree :)
well that and take a spare PC man just in case about half will see it my way and tell you no
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I've often argued that you could play a paladin of a Chaotic Evil God and still be LAwful Good
1. Lawful is not neccessarilly strictly following any laws. It has been mentioned several times that it is a code of persoanl honour for some. They have their own rules and beliefs that they must follow.
Also any paladins are from the militaristic arm of the church. The military is renowned for being organised predicatable and having their own set of rules and laws. Therefore a paladin in this armed service of his god would have to obey the orders of his superiors and the rules of engagement etc thus making him lawful.
2. Good means doing your work for others without the need for personal gain. Paladins do their work for their church. their entire life is devoted to performing selfless acts for the benefit of their god and fellow worshippers. As long as the paladin is getting no personal gain from it and helping out any fellow worshippers in need I see him as being basically good.
So there you have a LG paladin following the strict rules of his order and selflessly fullfilling the needs of others. Is this not basically what paladins do?
I've always had a problem with Lawful Paladins folloing the Law. If they were in a country that legalised harmful drug use, slavery and sacrifice would they neccessarily follow these laws. We all know most paladins would not
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A CG God would not give a damn if you broke your code for the greater god what do they care,This is a very interesting point. If a LG paladin of a CG deity converted over time to, say, NG, by the rules he'd lose his paladin abilities. It'd be hard to justify that RP-wise, I think. Why would your god take away your powers when you become more like him?
I'll remember you as someone who will help in arguments for pally alignment rights.
Everyone, please remember that that there is a bunch of lore that states from Chaos sprang Order. The two are closer in conjoined twins in strait jackets.
A CG God wouldn't do something or require something that would impinge on someone's freedom, including freedom of alignment.
well that and take a spare PC man just in case about half will see it my way and tell you no
My alternate character is a ranger who dual-wields longbows to benefit from both the melee and ranged attack abilities.
well that and take a spare PC man just in case about half will see it my way and tell you noMy alternate character is a ranger who dual-wields longbows to benefit from both the melee and ranged attack abilities.
HEH that works , but ya cant really do ranged and they brake really really easy upon being used to hit folks..but eh your death
I'll remember you as someone who will help in arguments for pally alignment rights.
Except paladins are LG, you chose to give up your code is no diff then a monk becomeing chaotic and loosing his ability or a druid forsaking his vows and loosing his powers.
well that and take a spare PC man just in case about half will see it my way and tell you noMy alternate character is a ranger who dual-wields longbows to benefit from both the melee and ranged attack abilities.
That deserves a big smile {:-}
I think overall, Seeker's right. If you're going to play a PFS Paladin, probably should avoid directly calling Cayden your Patron God (at least until the Final is out, possibly with clarification).
However, playing a "righteous" Paladin with no patron, who merely venerates the freedom aspects of Cayden seems completely appropriate. Might also choose Abadar or Erastil to venerate for some lawful reason (keeping your word, etc.)
For the record, I allowed a Paladin of Freedom (of Cayden) in my Second Darkness game, but that's a bit different.
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Except paladins are LG
Not the ones they were based off of, which are the real paladins. No one is really Lawful, not at heart, mind, our soul.
a monk becomeing chaotic and loosing his ability
Except they don't lose any of their abilities if the do become lawful.
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as
a monk but retains all monk abilities.
I've always had a problem with Lawful Paladins folloing the Law. If they were in a country that legalised harmful drug use, slavery and sacrifice would they neccessarily follow these laws. We all know most paladins would not
I've been beating the living crap out of that dead horse in the other thread.
A CG God wouldn't do something or require something that would impinge on someone's freedom, including freedom of alignment.
I don't actually feel that you have to derive your power from your god. I just haven't brought it up because there were other things that bothered me more. I feel it's perfectly possible to draw your power in a manner similar to non-aligned paladins while following a god. Indeed, it would be especially appropriate if you were following a non-traditional god.
However, playing a "righteous" Paladin with no patron, who merely venerates the freedom aspects of Cayden seems completely appropriate.
This is probably the best bet for playing your character without being hassled by others. Just because your paladin can't lie about his faith doesn't mean you the player can't. And we'll know better. ;)
If you're going to play a PFS Paladin, probably should avoid directly calling Cayden your Patron God...
You're probably right, but if only just to avoid being antagonistic. This thread has convinced me that there's nothing that says I can't do it, but if it makes my tablemates uncomfortable, it kind of defeats the purpose.
Who knows, the final PFRPG rules might open up the option some. Or St. Frost will pop in on Monday and say "Paladin of Cayden? Sweet!"
Who knows, the final PFRPG rules might open up the option some.
well we know they are LG only in the final. I hope they added that one step line as well. It has been an unspoken rule for ages and the rules dance around it without coming right out and saying it. it would stop a lot of the 'well nothing says I can't? I can so have my LG pally of a CE god as the rules do not say I can not!"
If ya want your holy warriors I have been using the thing from the PFCS gods that works great for that.
Except they don't lose any of their abilities if the do become lawful.
My mistake I stand corrected. Thank you.
Who knows, the final PFRPG rules might open up the option some.well we know they are LG only in the final. I hope they added that one step line as well. It has been an unspoken rule for ages and the rules dance around it without coming right out and saying it. it would stop a lot of the 'well nothing says I can't? I can so have my LG pally of a CE god as the rules do not say I can not!"
If ya want your holy warriors I have been using the thing from the PFCS gods that works great for that.
The one step has been an unspoken assumption. I'm not saying it is wrong, just as others have said there isn't anything that directly supports it. Just indirectly.
EDIT:: I just went through the newest 3.5 FAQ, and it isn't even brought up. For what that is worth.
heh well yeah all unspoken rules are assumptions aren't they?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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All I can say is that my first character ever was a paladin of THOR!, who was CN/CG in 1st Ed, so perhaps I'm a little more sympathetic than most to the paladin of a chaotic deity concept.
You'd still have to give me a reason, but if you could make some kind of a case I'd probably let you do it.
Paladin of Freedom might help.No it's a PFS game so that's not allowedI must have missed that, sorry.
For a home game, it's a far better solution the rationalizing, though.
I agree.
For the record, I allowed a Paladin of Freedom (of Cayden) in my Second Darkness game, but that's a bit different.And may I ask to know how that character was played? As compared as to the way a LG paladin would have been played anyway.
Unfortunately we only had him for long enough to get to know his boisterous personality, and not long enough to really get a law vs. chaos issue in (5-6 games I think). Overall I'd say he was played very similar to a cleric of Cayden, with a little extra "HOLY" added.
All I can say is that my first character ever was a paladin of THOR!, who was CN/CG in 1st Ed, so perhaps I'm a little more sympathetic than most to the paladin of a chaotic deity concept.
You'd still have to give me a reason, but if you could make some kind of a case I'd probably let you do it.
First to this post in 1st ed clerics or paladins of the Norse Gods could not heal wounds, so I always thought if you want a challenge play a paladin or cleric of them.
To me it has to fit the world. LG is core so if you make a world that doesn't allow for LG Paladins well, you might as well make one that doesn't allow for Fighters, but for all the other alginments well it depends on what the world can support or rather what the DM thinks it should support. Whatever alginments are allowed though paladins need to be strictly held to them, a CG paladin who supports a good king by helping him collect taxes has issues with his alginment just as much as an LE paladin who supports an LG king by quelling a revolt against him.
Clearly the LG core paladin is more G then L, I say this because he shuns evil and can smite evil not choas. Your CG paladin could either be more C and thus smite lawful or more good and thus smite evil, but you should decide this ahead of time. I think it's an important issue to deal with. Clearly an NG is all about good, and should smite evil. I could certainly see an LG paladin smite chaos too if that fits the world/god/order better. It's not as inflexible a class as some would have it be. Though it is inflexible for each paladin. As a matter of fact an LG paladin of an LN god to me should smite choas, not evil. But that's me, the DM will deal with this in a case by case basis anyway.
Clearly the LG core paladin is more G then L, I say this because he shuns evil and can smite evil not choas.
I couldn't have said that better. Paladins are very clearly a force for good. Even as they're following LN gods, they're still empowered to crush evil. I'd (obviously) be more lenient on paladins of CG gods than of LE gods. In fact, it makes more sense to me that a paladin would follow a CG god than a LN one, just for the reasons Thurgon spelled out.
The real pickle is how closely does a paladin need to emulate his chosen god? Is an evil-crushing LG paladin deviating from the tenants of his LN god? Golarion clearly doesn't think so since there are concrete declarations of paladins of LN gods. If a paladin of Abadar, fer instance, doesn't save a village because they can't afford to pay him, is he being good enough to stay a paladin?
I don't know if anyone remembers, but there was a CG paladin variant in AD&D in Dragon magazine, year's ago. Heh, I'm old.