Martial Arts

[Kuma]

DM_Blake wrote:

sumo

Great, now I'm starving...

[Kuma]

From Star Wars:

Unbalance Opponent
(Requires Defensive Martial Arts)
On your turn, designate an opponent up to one size category larger than you. This opponent can't use their strength bonus to melee attack rolls targeting you. Strength bonus adds to damage as normal. You can change the target of this feat on each turn.

From lots of places:

Banter
(Requires Cha 13+)
Gain a bonus to defense equal to charisma bonus.

From d20 Modern:

Body Blow
(Requires Martial Arts)
Effect: Each time you hit with this attack, the target suffers normal unarmed damage and must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + your Strength modifer + 1/2 your level). Failure means the target takes a –1 Dodge penalty to her Defense for the rest of the encounter. Like Dodge bonuses, these penalties stack. Every five rounds (30 seconds), the target “recovers” one point of Defense until her Defense returns to normal. The target’s Defense may not be reduced below her fat-footed value by this feat. However, if the target’s Defense is reduced to its fat-footed value, she is fat-footed for all combat purposes until she manages to recover at least one point of Defense. You may only use this feat once per round, but you may make additional, non-Body Blow attacks, provided that you have the ability to make multiple
attacks.

Dodge Roll
(Requires Tumble 5 ranks, Improved Martial Arts)
Make a Tumble check (DC 15) and gain a +2 Dodge bonus to Defense. For every fve points by which your Tumble check exceeds the DC, you gain an extra +1 Dodge bonus to your Defense. This maneuver is a move action.

Eye Gouge
(Requires Martial Arts)
The target of your attack suffers normal unarmed damage and must
make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + your Strength modifier +
1/2 your level) or be Blinded for 1–4 rounds.

Drunken Stance
(Requires Improved Martial Arts, Bluff 4 ranks)
If you make a successful Bluff check against your opponent, you may make an unarmed attack of opportunity against him the next time he makes a melee attack against you. The Bluff check is an attack action that does not provokean attack of opportunity, and only works against opponents with Intelligence of 3 or higher. The target of your attack of opportunity loses any Dexterity bonus to Defense against your attack of opportunity. This feat does not increase the number of AoOs you may make in a round.

[Kuma]

I guess if I'm going to post using the Martial arts tree as a prereq, I should mention that:

Martial Arts - no prerequisites.

Improved Martial Arts - Martial Arts, +4 BAB

Advanced Martial Arts - Martial Arts, Improved Martial Arts, +8 BAB

Defensive Martial Arts - Martial Arts

[Matthew Morris]

DM_Blake wrote:

Not to quibble, but I'm fairly sure the little guy to whom you refer was a practitioner of Monkey-style Kung Fu.

He even did the monkeyish facial expressions and body language. Fairly authentic actually, but just about any martial arts style, especially one that emphasizes speed and mobility over power will be quite helpless against Sumo wrestlers - those guys can take almost infinite small punishments and when they finally get you, it's game over.

I'll defer to your judgement.

Still... Score one for the FAT GUY!

[psionichamster]

Now I really want to play a bare-fisted fighter in full plate, outpunching monks and throwing people off buildings.

thanks, Kuma!

-t

[Ughbash]

psionichamster wrote:

Now I really want to play a bare-fisted fighter in full plate, outpunching monks and throwing people off buildings.

thanks, Kuma!

-t

Fighter level 20 with feat Superior unarmed strike (2d6) at 20.

Improved Natural attack brings it to 3d6 at 20.
Open hand mastery (you have the feats as a warrior) brings you to 4d6 at 20.

Go with the Dual wield tree and you have 7 attacks.

Drop 2 attacks for improved vital strike and you have 5 attacks doing 12d6.

As a 20 warrior all your potential crits confirm and increases the damage of your crits so a crit does 12d6 +8d6 (only the initial 4d6 is tripled). And of course you have the warrior BAB for this so you are more likley to hit.

[Spiffy Jim]

Once upon a time (back in 2nd ed) I created a table of martial arts maneuvers based roughly of the "Ninja Hero" book, If anyone's familiar with that.

Basically, maneuvers incorporated a "To Hit" modifier, "Defense Modifier" (attackers AC), "Damage dice" and finally Special effect.

This was very flexible and fun. You could have one maneuver that did more damage for sacrificing AC (till your next turn) and another that gave you AC and a higher to hit for minimal damage with no special effect, etc. There are a gazillion combinations.

In the "Feat System" I'd almost say you get a "style" with "X" (probably around 5) many maneuvers and a stance.

[Kuma]

psionichamster wrote:

Now I really want to play a bare-fisted fighter in full plate, outpunching monks and throwing people off buildings.

thanks, Kuma!

-t

Yay! \(^o^)/

Ughbash wrote:

fighter punchy build

Heck yeah, I pretty much run with this for any punchy guy.

Spiffy Jim wrote:

interesting stuff

There's kind of a precedent for this with feats. It's the tactical/weapon style stuff. They generally give three techniques per feat.

[Kuma]

Wait, "Open hand mastery".

What that is?

[Spiffy Jim]

Kuma wrote:

Spiffy Jim wrote:

interesting stuff

There's kind of a precedent for this with feats. It's the tactical/weapon style stuff. They generally give three techniques per feat.

I'm talking more minor bumps that you really can't justify being a feat in-and-of-itself as apposed to one really good maneuver. So you can have several tied together as one feat, I think it better replicates actual martial arts. Otherwise, in real-world terms, you'd be dumping two dozen feats to learn one style of martial arts.

In 3.X and later I'd say that the damage dice would convert as a unarmed damage modifier. Each of the subclassifications would probably modify to Hit, AC, Damage, and a action (like trip or bull rush) by "+" or "-" to a maximum of 2.

School=Feat and each school would have 4-5 maneuvers and a stance in it. The number of schools would be limited based on hit dice, say 1 school per 5 BAB.

May be a little too tough for 3.X I'd need to play test it. It worked well in 2nd ed as a replacement for the "unarmed table" for those of us fogeys who remember it.

[Bitter Thorn]

Spiffy Jim wrote:

Once upon a time (back in 2nd ed) I created a table of martial arts maneuvers based roughly of the "Ninja Hero" book, If anyone's familiar with that.

Basically, maneuvers incorporated a "To Hit" modifier, "Defense Modifier" (attackers AC), "Damage dice" and finally Special effect.

This was very flexible and fun. You could have one maneuver that did more damage for sacrificing AC (till your next turn) and another that gave you AC and a higher to hit for minimal damage with no special effect, etc. There are a gazillion combinations.

In the "Feat System" I'd almost say you get a "style" with "X" (probably around 5) many maneuvers and a stance.

Ninja hero rocked!

[DM_Blake]

Spiffy Jim wrote:

Once upon a time (back in 2nd ed) I created a table of martial arts maneuvers based roughly of the "Ninja Hero" book, If anyone's familiar with that.

Basically, maneuvers incorporated a "To Hit" modifier, "Defense Modifier" (attackers AC), "Damage dice" and finally Special effect.

This was very flexible and fun. You could have one maneuver that did more damage for sacrificing AC (till your next turn) and another that gave you AC and a higher to hit for minimal damage with no special effect, etc. There are a gazillion combinations.

In the "Feat System" I'd almost say you get a "style" with "X" (probably around 5) many maneuvers and a stance.

Ninja Hero was pretty sweet. But then, I'm a big fan of Hero System in general (I believe in those days it was still called Champions).

But that system is a whole 'nother ball game. An entire combat system designed to simulate comic book/graphic novel combat, frame by frame, in an RPG.

In a comic book, every little detail is drawn out. Turns mean nothing - fast heroes hit way more often than slow ones, but slow heroes hit way harder than quick ones. Where you hit means as much as how hard you hit. How cool and flashy the power you use is more important than how deadly. Heroes have almost as many ways to defend themselves as they have to attack the villains. People get knocked across streets, through walls, or over buildings. Comic book stuff. And Hero System models it very well. One good combat could fill half of an entire comic book, or more, and likewise, one good combat can take up half your gaming day - or more.

Pretty much exactly the opposite of D&D where none of that matters. Abstract combat where we roll a simple attack roll against one abstract defense, then roll some simple damage, apply it to a grand total of HP regardless of defenses or hit locations, and move on. Just about as boring and abstract as you can get. But it's quick and easy and we move right back on to adventuring in a comparatively short amount of time.

Those two systems could hardly be more night and day.

As much as I liked Champions and Ninja Hero, for me, trying to blend that combat system into D&D was like trying to blend a cheeseburger into an apple pie. I like them both, but not together.

[Spiffy Jim]

DM_Blake wrote:

Ninja Hero was pretty sweet. But then, I'm a big fan of Hero System in general (I believe in those days it was still called Champions).

But that system is a whole 'nother ball game. An entire combat system designed to simulate comic book/graphic novel combat, frame by frame, in an RPG.

In a comic book, every little detail is drawn out. Turns mean nothing - fast heroes hit way more often than slow ones, but slow heroes hit way harder than quick ones. Where you hit means as much as how hard you hit. How cool and flashy the power you use is more important than how deadly. Heroes have almost as many ways to defend themselves as they have to attack the villains. People get knocked across streets, through walls, or over buildings. Comic book stuff. And Hero System models it very well. One good combat could fill half of an entire comic book, or more, and likewise, one good combat can take up half your gaming day - or more.

Pretty much exactly the opposite of D&D where none of that matters. Abstract combat where we roll a simple attack roll against one abstract defense, then roll some simple damage, apply it to a grand total of HP regardless of defenses or hit locations, and move on. Just about as boring and abstract as you can get. But it's quick and easy and we move right back on to adventuring in a comparatively short amount...

I don't think "speed" (one of the most beautiful things about champions IMO) comes into this. The mechanics for this are already here.

What this becomes, mechanically, is akin to what expertise and power attack do on a broader, all-be-it, more limited scale.

for example:

Lets say you are in an offensive stance which grants +1 to hit and -1 ac. And you do a strike that does more damage but leaves you open a bit (maybe a "hook") +1 damage and -1 ac. So you are effectively +1 to hit and +1 damage and -2 ac till your next turn.

[Kuma]

The problem with a feat that provides multiple minor abilities is always the same: Character x wants abilities 1, 3 and 4. Character y wants abilities 2, 3 and 5. Character z just likes abilities 1 and 5.

So they all hem and haw and think about it, but no one takes the feat. Why would you waste a feat when you only want half of what it does?

[Spiffy Jim]

Kuma wrote:

The problem with a feat that provides multiple minor abilities is always the same: Character x wants abilities 1, 3 and 4. Character y wants abilities 2, 3 and 5. Character z just likes abilities 1 and 5.

So they all hem and haw and think about it, but no one takes the feat. Why would you waste a feat when you only want half of what it does?

Because you can mix and match maneuvers with stances. It's incredibly versatile.

You get one stance and several maneuvers when you take the feat. Each feat is a style (Crane, Karate etc) and you can improve in that style or take another style based on your BAB and spending another a feat.

In my above example you get +1 to hit and +1 to damage at the cost of 2 AC. There is only 1 "to hit" feat and that only gives you 1 "+1" (no sliding scale).

Also, in this case, you are sacrificing "AC" for damage not "to hit" like you would for power attack.

[Kuma]

Spiffy Jim wrote:

style feats with multiple small bonuses

Why not just create stance feats that provide a single feat-worthy bonus? Then you can use things like Power Attack or Insightful Strike to gain other useful abilities to use in conjunction with a stance.

Don't Touch Me [Stance]
You have mastered a stance that allows rapid reactions.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Defensive Martial Arts.
Benefit: Whenever an opponent attempts a Bull Rush or Overrun attack against you, you may avoid the attack completely by taking a 5-foot step. If this change in position would create an opportunity for you to take an attack of opportunity against the opponent (because he or she leaves
a space you threaten, for example), you may if you still have an attack of opportunity available. In addition, any attempts to tumble through a space you threaten or occupy has its DC increased by +5.
Special: The 5-foot step allowed by this feat does not count as choosing to avoid an opponent attempting an overrun, so Improved Overrun has no effect on this feat. Improved Bull Rush does not negate this attack of
opportunity. You may choose to benefit from any one stance feat as a free action each turn.

[newless cluebie]

Here are a few ideas.

Advancing Blows: When you score a critical hit on an unarmed attack, you can immediately make an additional unarmed attack against the same opponent (using the same modifiers as the original).

Mixed Style: When you wield a weapon in your main-hand and nothing in your off-hand, you may treat that weapon as if it were an unarmed strike if doing so would be advantageous.

See You In Hell: When an opponent tries to force you into a hazard by any means (such as bull rush you off a ledge) and you are adjacent to that opponent, you may attempt to initiate a grapple as an immediate action to drag your opponent along with you.

Flying Kick: When you charge unarmed, you deal an extra 1d12 damage.

[Bitter Thorn]

newless cluebie wrote:

Here are a few ideas.

Advancing Blows: When you score a critical hit on an unarmed attack, you can immediately make an additional unarmed attack against the same opponent (using the same modifiers as the original).

Mixed Style: When you wield weapon in your main-hand and nothing in your off-hand, you may treat that weapon as if it were an unarmed strike if doing so would be advantageous.

See You In Hell: When an opponent tries to force you into a hazard by any means (such as bull rush you off a ledge) and you are adjacent to that opponent, you may attempt to initiate a grapple as an immediate action to drag your opponent along with you.

Flying Kick: When you charge unarmed, you deal an extra 1d12 damage.

I like "See You In Hell"!

[Takamonk]

DM_Blake wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

DM_Blake wrote:

Anyone remember Jeane Claude, the Muscles from Brussels, in his first major role as Frank Dux in Bloodsport?

This was supposed to be a true story of a real man, Frank Dux, who really lived and did much of what the movie depicts. I still think it's JCVD's best movie to date.

I prefer Time Cop.

What I remember from Bloodsport was the cappocoria (sp) battle dancer vs the Sumo wrestler. little guy was fast, but when the Sumo caught him up and crushed him until his back broke I cheered and said "Score one for the fat guy!!"

Oh, back to the thread.

Not to quibble, but I'm fairly sure the little guy to whom you refer was a practitioner of Monkey-style Kung Fu.

He even did the monkeyish facial expressions and body language. Fairly authentic actually, but just about any martial arts style, especially one that emphasizes speed and mobility over power will be quite helpless against Sumo wrestlers - those guys can take almost infinite small punishments and when they finally get you, it's game over.

I have to disagree. They cannot take infinite small punishment to sensitive areas. As shown by that movie, obviously. The face, neck, and groin are all areas with relatively no protection.

You also assume that simply because they are massive that there aren't other martial artists that also make use of great mass and mobility. Take American TV wrestling... in Japan... for example. (You know, the one where it looks like American wrestling, but they actually hurt one another.)

[DM_Blake]

Takamonk wrote:

DM_Blake wrote:

Not to quibble, but I'm fairly sure the little guy to whom you refer was a practitioner of Monkey-style Kung Fu.

He even did the monkeyish facial expressions and body language. Fairly authentic actually, but just about any martial arts style, especially one that emphasizes speed and mobility over power will be quite helpless against Sumo wrestlers - those guys can take almost infinite small punishments and when they finally get you, it's game over.

I have to disagree. They cannot take infinite small punishment to sensitive areas. As shown by that movie, obviously. The face, neck, and groin are all areas with relatively no protection.

You also assume that simply because they are massive that there aren't other martial artists that also make use of great mass and mobility. Take American TV wrestling... in Japan... for example. (You know, the one where it looks like American wrestling, but they actually hurt one another.)

You read too much into what I said. I'll try again:

DM_Blake wrote:

those guys can take almost infinite small punishments and when they finally get you, it's game over.

Strikes to face, neck, and groin are not "small punishments". Big punishments like breaking noses or jaws, gouging eyes, KO blows to jaw or temple or base of skull, knee breakers, groin attacks, etc., will take anyone down, even sumo wrestlers.

Further, I said "almost infinite" - even a sumo wrestler will succumb eventually to be punched and kicked in ways that qualify as "small punishements", but it takes a lot. They train long and hard, have amazing endurance and tolerance for pain.

As one instructor if mine said "you almost have to kill him to hurt him" (not a reference to sumo, but to a really big, strong guy that trained with us who never seemed to feel any pain, no matter how hard we tried - but the point is much the same with sumo wrestlers).

[Kuma]

I like See You In Hell too!

Kind of a rare benefit for a feat though, might want to broaden it a little, with more chances to take someone down with you. Maybe gain the ability to do damage to someone when they do pin damage to you, or take them with you when you're tripped?