It seems this would make a lot of giants MUCH easier to fight.
Take for an example an Ogre. It has a +1 will save and because it is only 4 HD, any sorc/wiz could daze an ogre each round with about a 60% chance. And considering Daze is at will, they can try each round.
Hill Giants have a +4 will save. A 3rd level cleric could cast Hold Person with a DC 15 (assuming a 16 wisdom). That's a 50% chance of making the fight a joke basically.
What do you all think?
o!
Now,giants will be able to enlarge and reduce themselves.(and Puss in Boots eats them.)
|
I was going to point out that enlarge thing, but I got ninjad.
However, kind of a neat thing that is easily overlooked(in regards to enlarging giants) is that in the gods and magic book, there is an alternate for those who worship one of the giant gods. Basically they can prep a 3rd level spell that functions as enlarge person but only works on giants.
Its too bad I read that after I had finished running RotRL. I was teasing my players how great it would have been the first time they saw a colossal rune giant...
I'm going to have to run my group through the rest of #3 and #4 quickly then, before the final rules come out! :)
It seems this would make a lot of giants MUCH easier to fight.
Take for an example an Ogre. It has a +1 will save and because it is only 4 HD, any sorc/wiz could daze an ogre each round with about a 60% chance. And considering Daze is at will, they can try each round.
Hill Giants have a +4 will save. A 3rd level cleric could cast Hold Person with a DC 15 (assuming a 16 wisdom). That's a 50% chance of making the fight a joke basically.
What do you all think?
Don't think it's a bad deal. A 50/50% chance that a creature with a bad save might fail against your highest level spell? Consider it from that direction.
Hardly a sure thing, and if it happens worthwhile... sounds like a good one shot ability to me. Beyond that the spell will only last for 3 rounds.
The Hill Giant has 102 HP and is challenge rating 7 (SRD) so the cleric can give his party a chance to win (or a chance to run away).
Don't think it's a bad deal. A 50/50% chance that a creature with a bad save might fail against your highest level spell? Consider it from that direction.Hardly a sure thing, and if it happens worthwhile... sounds like a good one shot ability to me. Beyond that the spell will only last for 3 rounds.
Dude, coup de grace. Hold person has to last one round at most. Usually this tactic is timed so that the coupper will act before the couppee gets his second save.
I personally have enjoyed DM'ing with Giants, and I too am about to start The Hook Mountain Massacre. And I feel that once I get into the next module it will be even easier.
A 3rd level cleric should not really be fighting CR 7 hill giants, but the fact that he can fairly likely take the hill giant out with two castings of a commonly mem'd spell seems to make giants much weaker than before.
Heck, even ogres can be effectively neutralized by an at will cantrip or orision now.
I will probably continue to house rule giants as giants, and not humanoid: giant.
And yes, when something is paralyzed by hold person, a simple coup-de-grace usually instantly slays the intended target. My players have become coup-de-grace happy too because of channeling, they will typically make sure everything is truly dead before channeling positive energy.
Yet, I do find my players get quite pissy when I hold person them and try to coup-de-grace them. <shrugs shoulders>
If this makes giants even easier to nuke with mental stuff I too will probably house rule it out. As it is now one confusion spell can send a band of giants into a self-destructive tizzy. A sorcerer in the campaign I run now had a lot of fun throwing confusions at stupid creatures. In general it kills the entire encounter. Not that I want to punish his strategy its just that sometimes when one spell can change an entire encounter it might be off-kilter.
Anyway, let the flood of "you're a crappy dm who wants to punish creative players!" posts begin.
Remember all, Daze only works on the basic ogres, and coup de grace is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity - meaning you can't rush up and auto-kill (or even auto-hit), you have to be within 5' already. If it has any friends - wham!
I recently held a kobold druid but couldn't push through the forest fast enough for a coup de grace - just a single swing on a charge... and botched!
Yep, I think this one goes into the houserule department for me too. There is something about being huge that says "I'm a monster."
They may look like oversized humans, but their bones are vastly stronger to support their great bulk, their hearts are the size of volkswagons to pump blood that far without it deoxygenating halfway to their extremeties, their skin is as tough as leather just so they don't rip themselves to shreds standing up or sitting down, etc.
Different anatomy makes for monster, not humanoid. True, their anatomy is not anywhere near as dissimilar to humanoids as, say, a tarrasque's anatomy. Still, for me, it's different enough to classify them as monsters.
But on the other hand, I like the idea of giants benefitting from Enlarge Person if they want.
So I think this is my houserule:
Giants are monsters with regard to effects that would harm them, so spells such as Daze or Charm Person will not affect giants. However, they have just enough similarities with humans and other humanoids that they treat humanoid as a subtype with regard to affects that would benefit them, so they can receive the benefit of Enlarge Person, for example.
Now, if none of my players are reading this, I have a new surprise for them one day...
|
Or you know you can wait to see how it plays out. Dominate and charm monster are in the game at about the time you are fighting most giants. The weaker giants now can be affected the same as higher CR giants may not ruin them as much as you think. I'm gonna try to run it this way. Heck for all you know giants may have a +4 bonus to their saves vs. spells that affect humanoids or some other defense, even if not, I still say try to play it that way and if it turns out like you think then houserule, but saying oh heck no houserule without at least trying it out is something that leads to disgruntled players.
Or you know you can wait to see how it plays out. Dominate and charm monster are in the game at about the time you are fighting most giants. The weaker giants now can be affected the same as higher CR giants may not ruin them as much as you think. I'm gonna try to run it this way. Heck for all you know giants may have a +4 bonus to their saves vs. spells that affect humanoids or some other defense, even if not, I still say try to play it that way and if it turns out like you think then houserule, but saying oh heck no houserule without at least trying it out is something that leads to disgruntled players.
Well I'm certainly going to wait to see what it looks like when its finally released, but if the spells like confusion (and some others) still generally work the same, and now suddenly giants are MORE subject to mental attacks, I don't have to "try it" to know its not for me. But either way, I'm not saying I am going to houserule it without even seeing the real rule.
Considering that a coup de grace allows a Fortitude save (+12 for a hill giant) and a Will save each round to break free, hold person may not the giant killer that many think it will be.
If anything, daze may be more dangerous. Being usable at will, it can easily keep an opponent out of an entire fight.
Dude, coup de grace. Hold person has to last one round at most. Usually this tactic is timed so that the coupper will act before the couppee gets his second save.
Don't think it's a bad deal. A 50/50% chance that a creature with a bad save might fail against your highest level spell? Consider it from that direction.Hardly a sure thing, and if it happens worthwhile... sounds like a good one shot ability to me. Beyond that the spell will only last for 3 rounds.
And he can do it exactly twice, with a 50% failure rate meaning both his best spells might be lost to a creature with a weak save throw in that specific area.
Now if you were saying "A 3rd level cleric shouldn't have a 50% success rate against a monster of CR 7 and a good save in that category" I would agree.
However a hill giant has a weak save throw and against a spell he is "weak" against still has a 50% chance of success on his save barring any outside help for his save throw.
And the cleric in this example would only have 2 2nd level spells, and spent both of them on Hold Person.
Coup De Grac do allow a save throw.
Considering that a coup de grace allows a Fortitude save (+12 for a hill giant) and a Will save each round to break free, hold person may not the giant killer that many think it will be.
If anything, daze may be more dangerous. Being usable at will, it can easily keep an opponent out of an entire fight.
Exactly, a coup de grace isn't an instant kill. it's a critical hit that forces a fort save...you still need to be able to reach a vital spot...just the same as a sneak attack...
Yep, I think this one goes into the houserule department for me too. There is something about being huge that says "I'm a monster."
They may look like oversized humans, but their bones are vastly stronger to support their great bulk, their hearts are the size of volkswagons to pump blood that far without it deoxygenating halfway to their extremeties, their skin is as tough as leather just so they don't rip themselves to shreds standing up or sitting down, etc.
Different anatomy makes for monster, not humanoid. True, their anatomy is not anywhere near as dissimilar to humanoids as, say, a tarrasque's anatomy. Still, for me, it's different enough to classify them as monsters.
But on the other hand, I like the idea of giants benefitting from Enlarge Person if they want.
So I think this is my houserule:
Giants are monsters with regard to effects that would harm them, so spells such as Daze or Charm Person will not affect giants. However, they have just enough similarities with humans and other humanoids that they treat humanoid as a subtype with regard to affects that would benefit them, so they can receive the benefit of Enlarge Person, for example.
Now, if none of my players are reading this, I have a new surprise for them one day...
when the human gets enlarged by enlarge person, and becomes 12 feet tall, is he now immune to charm person? is he now a monster?
... and coup de grace is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity - meaning you can't rush up and auto-kill...
Unless you take the feat that allows you to coup de grace as a standard action. Still might provoke AAOs but would probably be worth it most of the time.