In my current campaign, I just ran an encounter where the characters had an option to face a test of body (a bare-knuckles wrestling contest against a grappling-optimized efreet) or a test of mind (a riddle-game, where if the PCs were able to stump the efreet he'd give them a major clue to an obstacle they needed to pass). The goliath lost in the wrestling contest, unfortunately, so instead the bard had a chance to shine.
The way I played it, I had to answer the riddle that the bard's player came up with. We ruled it reasonable that, being a bard, his bardic knowledge granted him impressive know-how of various things (riddles among them). I guessed his first riddle correctly, but he pretty much nailed me with the second one ("He who makes it, buys it not; he who buys it, needs it not; he who needs it, sees it not." Answer: "A coffin.") -- the player had Googled some riddles, which seemed reasonable given that the character would absolutely have extensive knowledge that the player didn't.
It was straight out roleplaying (with some Google-fu), rather than roll-playing, but I'm wondering if you worthies could think of a way to represent intelligent opponents riddling each other that didn't come down to a player-vs-DM Google-fu skirmish. *grin*
Ah, I knew that one. I'd heard it before. By the time I got through "He who makes it needs it not" I already knew the answer.
Reminds me of Bilbo and Golem and their Riddles in the Dark.
Riddle contests are very awkward.
Sure, you can handle them with dice:
DM: The efreet asks you a riddle. Roll a d20.
Bard: 17.
DM: OK, you answered right. Your turn.
Bard: I ask him a riddle.
DM: The efreet rolls a 14. He got it right. He asks you a riddle.
That goes on until someone blows it.
You don't even have to know any riddles. We can assume bards know riddles and we can assume that if the efreet offered the challenge, then he must know some riddles too.
So it can all be resolved by rolling dice without the DM or player every actually saying any riddles out loud.
Boring.
Or you can do the same thing, but require the efreet and the bard (the DM and Player, actually) to say their riddles out loud, but then roll dice to see if the characters know the answer.
Personally, I think there is no way a brilliant efreeti who gets his kicks by riddle contests would ever every fail the coffin riddle. He probably should have gotten some kind of INT check.
This can be somewhat fun, but ultimately, one bad die roll and you lose. One roll.
One roll is never fun, nor is it really a good game mechanic on which to hinge a whole encounter.
Imagine combat where the players walk into the room, everyone rolls initiative, then the DM rolls one d20. If he rolls high, the monsters win the fight. If he rolls low, the players win the fight.
So if you leave riddle contests up to die rolls, make it so the loser must fail three riddles. Of course, odds are, you'll end up tied 2-2 and the last failure is still a single die roll...
Or you can do what you did. A verbal riddle contest settled between DM and player.
In this case, their characters had nothing to do with it.
That efreeti probably had thousands of years traveling all over the planes collecting riddles. He would have heard the coffin riddle a thousand times. Or more.
But he lost for not knowing "coffin".
Not really fair to the efreeti.
It could go the other way, too. I rarely forget a riddle, and I've heard lots of riddles. In books. PC games. D&D games. At school. Now my kids come home and ask me "if a plane crashes right on the border between Cancada and the U.S., where do you bury the survivors" and before she's finished asking, I know the answer - but I usually let her think she's stumped me.
So when I do a riddle contest, I'm almost always able to completely blow my players away.
Unfortunately, leaving dice completely out of it usually puts one person, either the player or the DM, at a significant disadvantage.
On the other hand, this is by far and away the most interesting and fun way to handle riddle contests.
It's a bit of a crap-shoot really.
What I do when a riddle contest is coming up is require everyone who will take part to bring prepared riddles. In this case, that's you and the bard's player.
Then we ask back and forth until someone doesn't know.
Then we try a backup roll, based on INT or, maybe in this case, bardic knowledge.
First one to lose three times loses the contest.
That usually works for me.
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Riddles are definitly a wisdom based check. Well most of the time. A few might go off of int, but they should tend to be either more logic driven or puzzles. As far as handling them with rules, I would suggest a few different possible checks. A riddle may allow more than one, but common sense should be the guide. Except knowledge arcana or local, all the knowledges should be fair, though religion probably the most common. (A lot of religious teaching use riddles and symbolic language, alagory). Of coure bardinc knowledge can substitute.
Beyond that, pretty much any non str or dex skill should be allowed if it is relavent.
For out of game material, what I would do is google search riddle sites, and print off like 10 good riddles per player. They get to pick what riddle they present, which should last a while, and the dm arbitrates what skill(s) can be used, dc, number of attempts to roll different skills, and lastly what counts as solving.
I would suggest not going first to not solve, as a bad roll isn't to fun, but rather the most solved.
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Dang it. My phone takes so long I didn't see someone had already answered. I suggest wisdom because in D&D, wisdom denotes undertanding, being able to relate concepts quick thinking, reasoning, and perception.
Intelegence is mostly memorization, an logic, which are actually the bane of a riddle, (you force yourself to overthink things and don't see the answer right infront of you).
I don't know what pathfinder book says, but that is from PHB.
Dang it. My phone takes so long I didn't see someone had already answered. I suggest wisdom because in D&D, wisdom denotes undertanding, being able to relate concepts quick thinking, reasoning, and perception.
Intelegence is mostly memorization, an logic, which are actually the bane of a riddle, (you force yourself to overthink things and don't see the answer right infront of you).
I don't know what pathfinder book says, but that is from PHB.
Yes, WIS works too.
I see it either way.
I think I'm fairly smart (I'm a software engineer and I played chess professionally) but my wife would tell you I am definitely most unwise.
Yet I'm good at riddles, because I memorize them.
Other people are certainly good because they figure them out. (hey, I've figured some out).
Those guys are surely better than I am at solving riddles we've never heard before...
I can see either mental stat being useful in a riddle contest. I just used INT in my post because the couple times I've seen it done, it was the wizard who took on the challenge.
In my current campaign, I just ran an encounter where the characters had an option to face a test of body (a bare-knuckles wrestling contest against a grappling-optimized efreet) or a test of mind (a riddle-game, where if the PCs were able to stump the efreet he'd give them a major clue to an obstacle they needed to pass). The goliath lost in the wrestling contest, unfortunately, so instead the bard had a chance to shine.
The way I played it, I had to answer the riddle that the bard's player came up with. We ruled it reasonable that, being a bard, his bardic knowledge granted him impressive know-how of various things (riddles among them). I guessed his first riddle correctly, but he pretty much nailed me with the second one ("He who makes it, buys it not; he who buys it, needs it not; he who needs it, sees it not." Answer: "A coffin.") -- the player had Googled some riddles, which seemed reasonable given that the character would absolutely have extensive knowledge that the player didn't.
It was straight out roleplaying (with some Google-fu), rather than roll-playing, but I'm wondering if you worthies could think of a way to represent intelligent opponents riddling each other that didn't come down to a player-vs-DM Google-fu skirmish. *grin*
'Tis a great riddle, that I first heard from Dreampark by Niven and Barnes.
As to your question, that is a stumper, because the fun of such an intellectual contest is actually doing it, in my opinion. I think the way you did it works best if both sides are into that sort of fun ... but I know a good friend who _hates_ diplomacy role-playing because she feels she's lousy at it, and prefers to trust her treachorous dice to her tongue.
Since the battle is a battle of wits and knowledge, I'd make an optional INT roll, bonused with any appropriate skills (most likely knowledge ones) to allow a hint on either side, so that GM/player knowledge doesn't interfere with NPC/PC knowledge :)
[And I disagree with DM_Blake on the efreeti probably auto-knowing it ... how many times would the efreet deal with burial customs? :) ]
[And I disagree with DM_Blake on the efreeti probably auto-knowing it ... how many times would the efreet deal with burial customs? :) ]
My point wasn't about burial customs. I suppose efreeti probably burn their dead on some very impressive pyres.
My point was that anyone who walks up to strangers (or strangers walk up to them) and says "i'll do such-and-such if you beat me in a riddle contest" probably specializes in riddles.
If that anyone happens to be an immortal efreet, who is likely many thousands of years old and has likely traveled to thousands of exotic (and not too exotic) places, then no doubt he's seen it all and heard it all.
And the common stuff, he's seen and heard so many times he can recite it backwards in his sleep.
Now efreeti are smart. Geniuses. And immortal. And this particular efreet is a serious riddle-collector.
The coffin riddle is an "oldie but goodie" - surely this efreet has heard it before.
I exaggerated on the idea of "automatically" knowing it.
If you happen to know very little about geography, say, you couldn't point out Australia on a world map, would you challenge someone to a geography trivia contest?
This efreet not knowing the "coffin" answer is somewhat similar to him not knowing where to find Australia but being crazy enough to challenge the PCs to a geography trivia contest.
I guess anything's possible, so it shouldn't be automatic. Just nearly so.
Then again, maybe that riddle isn't as common as I think it is.
'Tis a great riddle, that I first heard from Dreampark by Niven and Barnes.
Yeah, I knew I'd heard it somewhere before but I couldn't think of where. No doubt I should've prepared better for the encounter by looking up some lists of riddles to contemplate... *grin* On the plus side, this gave the bard character a chance to shine, whereas usually in my rather combat-heavy game he stands in the back and uses inspire courage and crescendo with the occasional debuff spell to help combat along.
[And I disagree with DM_Blake on the efreeti probably auto-knowing it ... how many times would the efreet deal with burial customs? :) ]Now efreeti are smart. Geniuses. And immortal. And this particular efreet is a serious riddle-collector.
The kicker was, this efreet wasn't particularly brilliant. He'd been trapped into clue-duty by Zagyg some centuries back, to serve as the guard on the "red" layer of Zagyg's Prismatic Passage test for his apprentices.
(Imagine a vast sandy desert of rolling dunes, burnt reddish orange, where overhead the sky is a faded shade of crimson. In the distant, vermillion mountains loom against the horizon, and overhead a enormous sanguine sun hangs twice as large as the sun on whatever planet the PCs hail from. The PCs trudge half a mile across the burning sands and find, in front of a dark rock outcropping, the efreet (wearing sunglasses and dressed in blue cargo shorts with white, red, orange, and yellow flames emblazoned on the sides) lying on a pool chair and sipping hot coffee laced with firewhiskey while he takes in a tan. He sits up as he spies the PCs and greets them with "Whoa, duuuuudes! What's up?" *evil grin* My players loved it.)
In 1e-2e, bardic knowledge made a great riddlemastery approximation. Now I use a "knowledge (lore)" skill, encompassing bits of History, Arcana, etc. The poster who presented: "step one, you have to actually come up with a riddle; step two, roll to see if they can figure out the answer" is more or less how I run it.
One thing that I might try to combine the dice rolling with role playing is too divide the players into two teams. One team has the bard and the other includes the GM. For each riddle, the bard and the GM roll an appropriate skill or bardic knowledge. The higher the roll, the more members of the team can help. (So 10 or less is just the GM/bard, 11-15 gets one helper, 16-20 gets two helpers, etc. Scale the values as appropriate for the party level.)
To motivate the players on the GM side, offer some reward to the side that wins the challenge, ideally something that can't be transferred to other players. XP, action points or a favor from an NPC all seem viable rewards.
Everyone is involved at some level, but the character with the better skill is more likely to win. Assuming there are good riddlers on both sides, you're unlikely end the contest with a simple, well-known riddle.
Personally I don't like riddles much becuse it pretty much boils down to "either you knew that one already, or you don't". You can try to figure your way out of a riddle you don't know, but that's an endeavour that takes hours given the way riddles are phrased. I have yet to meet a person who can fast-guess the answer to a riddle he doesn't know (unless it's a VERY simple one, that is).
If I had to use riddles at some point in an adventure, though, it would be just as Udalrich suggested, that way it becomes fun and interactive for eveyone involved. Furthermore, I'd never make the consequences of a riddle contest to have heavy impact on the adventure, as failure could be equated to penalizing the players for not being knowledgeable enough, and victory would be an OOC thing at best, not something that came from the effort of the character.
What about riddles like this?
"What is green, has 4 legs, and would kill you if it fell of a tree onto you? - a pool table?"
"Why did the dead baby cross the road? - Because it was stapled to the chicken!" (that's one of those that did in Blaine the Mono, after all).
"Why did the dead baby cross the road? - Because it was stapled to the chicken!" (that's one of those that did in Blaine the Mono, after all).
Yeah, we shoot with our minds!
We kill with our hearts.
[And I disagree with DM_Blake on the efreeti probably auto-knowing it ... how many times would the efreet deal with burial customs? :) ]My point wasn't about burial customs. I suppose efreeti probably burn their dead on some very impressive pyres.
My point was that anyone who walks up to strangers (or strangers walk up to them) and says "i'll do such-and-such if you beat me in a riddle contest" probably specializes in riddles.
If that anyone happens to be an immortal efreet, who is likely many thousands of years old and has likely traveled to thousands of exotic (and not too exotic) places, then no doubt he's seen it all and heard it all.
And the common stuff, he's seen and heard so many times he can recite it backwards in his sleep.
Now efreeti are smart. Geniuses. And immortal. And this particular efreet is a serious riddle-collector.
The coffin riddle is an "oldie but goodie" - surely this efreet has heard it before.
I exaggerated on the idea of "automatically" knowing it.
If you happen to know very little about geography, say, you couldn't point out Australia on a world map, would you challenge someone to a geography trivia contest?
This efreet not knowing the "coffin" answer is somewhat similar to him not knowing where to find Australia but being crazy enough to challenge the PCs to a geography trivia contest.
I guess anything's possible, so it shouldn't be automatic. Just nearly so.
Then again, maybe that riddle isn't as common as I think it is.
While coffins existed long before Elizabethian times, I'm thinking they weren't very common, rare at best. Usually for someone of high importance such as nobility and more commonly referred to as a sarcophagus/tomb.
I'd argue the riddle was actually quite difficult given the answer/topic and the time period a typical D&D campaign takes place.
If I had to use riddles at some point in an adventure, though, it would be just as Udalrich suggested, that way it becomes fun and interactive for eveyone involved. Furthermore, I'd never make the consequences of a riddle contest to have heavy impact on the adventure, as failure could be equated to penalizing the players for not being knowledgeable enough, and victory would be an OOC thing at best, not something that came from the effort of the character.
I had a DM back in 2E that use to have us decipher glyphs/ancient languages, which then ended up being a riddle. We would get INT(or WIS) checks to figure out the "CODE" behind the glyphs, usually character substitution. After that, it was up to his wife and I to figure out the riddles on our own, they were never really that difficult, but tons of fun working them out.
I bleed, but am not wounded; I beat, but am not a drum; I can be wounded, but have no injury.
I have scales, but wear no armor; I breath, but do not need air; (I forget 3rd part, not that it's necessary)
What can run but never walks; Has a mouth but never talks; Has a bed but never sleeps.
Invisible at night; Follows you in the light; etc... (It's about a SHADOW, but I forget how it went and can't find one I like online.)
I bleed, but am not wounded; I beat, but am not a drum; I can be wounded, but have no injury.I have scales, but wear no armor; I breath, but do not need air; (I forget 3rd part, not that it's necessary)
What can run but never walks; Has a mouth but never talks; Has a bed but never sleeps.
Invisible at night; Follows you in the light; etc... (It's about a SHADOW, but I forget how it went and can't find one I like online.)
Fish - "always drinking but never do I drown."
River
Shadow of course - you said so, but I don't remember the rest of it either.
Peter Pan's went something like this:
I am only one color, but not one size,
I am stuck on the ground yet easily flies.
I am present in the sun but not in the rain,
I am doing no harm and feeling noo pain.
Oh, wait, how about this one:
I'm your follower in the light,
Yet I'm invisible in the night
At various sizes I appear
I won't harm you, have no fear
Is that the one you're thinking of?
"always drinking but never do I drown."
That was the third part! :D
Is that the one you're thinking of?
I honestly don't remember, that was unfortunately 15 years ago now. I read a few of the ones I came across and remembered portions of each one, but none of them rung a bell.
I have always prefered riddles like this
I am the beggining of eterinty
And the end of life.Equal in both male and female
And the same part of love and hateSeen twice in peace
No part of warOnce in the sea
Twice in a tree
And thrice nevermore.What am I?
Couldn't... resist... riddle...
A correct answer in the next 3 days wins you an Ion Stone that lets you ignor all natural attacks of the tarrasque, (as if they simply did not hit), and any spell that bounces off it's hide to hit you will bounce off of you and autohit, bypassing the hide.
Yikes!
Fortunately for me, an "Ion" is way to small to protect anyone from my armored teeth.
I have always prefered riddles like this
I am the beggining of eterinty
And the end of life.Equal in both male and female
And the same part of love and hateSeen twice in peace
No part of warOnce in the sea
Twice in a tree
And thrice nevermore.What am I?
** spoiler omitted **
Couldn't... resist... riddle...
Ahh, just my luck. I go to dinner and come back and someone asked a riddle, and someone else answered it while I was gone...
This one, I haven't seen. But I had seen others just like it, and had already decided the answer would not be an answer of the question, but rather of the way it was asked.
And then someone answered it.
Oh well, Beckett's Ion Stone won't save you from me, but I'll give you a pass. Well-played, sir!
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I have always prefered riddles like this
I am the beggining of eterinty
And the end of life.Equal in both male and female
And the same part of love and hateSeen twice in peace
No part of warOnce in the sea
Twice in a tree
And thrice nevermore.What am I?
** spoiler omitted **
Couldn't... resist... riddle...
Blast it to h*ll, I can't see the spoiler on my phone. . .
I supposse DM Blake maybe safe for a short stent.
I have always prefered riddles like this
I am the beggining of eterinty
And the end of life.Equal in both male and female
And the same part of love and hateSeen twice in peace
No part of warOnce in the sea
Twice in a tree
And thrice nevermore.What am I?
** spoiler omitted **
Couldn't... resist... riddle...
Blast it to h*ll, I can't see the spoiler on my phone. . .
I supposse DM Blake maybe safe for a short stent.
You don't need to read the spoiler. He got it right, and you know the answer, so you're golden.
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I have always prefered riddles like this
I am the beggining of eterinty
And the end of life.Equal in both male and female
And the same part of love and hateSeen twice in peace
No part of warOnce in the sea
Twice in a tree
And thrice nevermore.What am I?
** spoiler omitted **
Couldn't... resist... riddle...
That is correct. Fopalup, unto you I bestow the Artifact Ion Stone of Vecna's other eyeball.
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A combination of both riddles and dice rolls would work. A contestant asks a riddle, if the opponent answers correctly, bestow a +5 or +10 to the WIS check (or whatever check is being applied). If they answer incorrectly (ie - the player does not know the answer), the character may still work it out, but without the bonus.
In essence, the PC would receive a circumstance bonus from the player if the player is good at riddles, but is not necessarily pooched if they are not. Still not a perfect solution, but would still give those not good with riddles a chance and potentially derail a DM like DM_Blake who has every riddle memorized.
That is correct. Fopalup, unto you I bestow the Artifact Ion Stone of Vecna's other eyeball.I have always prefered riddles like this
I am the beggining of eterinty
And the end of life.Equal in both male and female
And the same part of love and hateSeen twice in peace
No part of warOnce in the sea
Twice in a tree
And thrice nevermore.What am I?
** spoiler omitted **
Couldn't... resist... riddle...
I don't think that looks very sanitary. Anyone got a good purifying spell handy?!? (That Vecna has the hardest time hanging onto his parts. Are they for sale on E-bay or something?) ;)
One of my favorite campaign moments ever:
Had a character with a Morganti sword (Blackrazor kind of deal: destroys soul on a killing stroke) who encountered and killed the local Phoenix. The PC was incinterated and true resurrected from the charred powder left of his bones, but for the first time since the beginning of the world, the Phoenix failed to rise from its ashes.
The characters ended up in a riddling contest with a pair of maximally-advanced sphinxes, whose "best" riddle involved the immortality of the phoenix. When the characters claimed to have won because the "correct" answer was no longer correct, all hell broke loose...
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A friend of mine some long time ago, a priestess of vacna discovered the secret a long time ago when she wrested a talisman of ineffible evil from some paladin attempting to distroy it by making the Tarrasque choke on it.
It is not actually the other eye of Vecna, just what she named it in honor, and to discourage others from trying to take it due to the legends the real Hand and Eye has on those that "equipe" them.
A friend of mine some long time ago, a priestess of vacna discovered the secret a long time ago when she wrested a talisman of ineffible evil from some paladin attempting to distroy it by making the Tarrasque choke on it.
????????!
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Years ago there was this deceptive undead priest that started this rumor that the only way to truely destroy the more powerful and rarer of the good and evil artifacts was to have you swallow them. Safely hidden away in your stomach, which can turn to dust virtually anything, if they are not gone, they are at the least kept from anyone finding and using them.
The idea even caught the ear of some bigwigs who went on to publish it in the second instalment of a dungeon handbook, so who knows just what vile weapons and holiest of treasures might be stored withing you intestines. . .
Perhaps a DC 20 Int check to see if the character has heard it before (memorized it), and a DC 15 or 10 Wis check for a hint. Otherwise the player must work it out.
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One way to deal with riddles is to prepare 3-5 riddles all about the same answer. If you watch the Transporter 2 (not the best movie but it's okay), Statham's character does that with a little boy.
To play this in game, you can give the first riddle and then if the player cannot answer have a Skill or INT roll with a very high DC. If fails, give the second riddle, and if necessary a second roll DC -5. This could progress all the way to a DC-25 if you have five riddles prepared, and let's face it DC-25, the character SHOULD get it!
I suppose essentially, the DC and modifiers and number of riddles should all correspond to how hard you want the scene, how important it is they solve the riddles, and how much you want to place on a die roll.
Years ago there was this deceptive undead priest that started this rumor that the only way to truely destroy the more powerful and rarer of the good and evil artifacts was to have you swallow them. Safely hidden away in your stomach, which can turn to dust virtually anything, if they are not gone, they are at the least kept from anyone finding and using them.
The idea even caught the ear of some bigwigs who went on to publish it in the second instalment of a dungeon handbook, so who knows just what vile weapons and holiest of treasures might be stored withing you intestines. . .
Mmmm hmmmm.
You're never going to find out, so just put it out of your head.
As Curly once said, "I crap bigger 'n you."
Side note: Next time I decide to take a 1,000-year nap, if some blockhead adventurer comes along waking me up to eat a shriveled old mummy hand, I'll do it.
[ooc]smiles really big, showing off his gleaming Teeth of Sharpness in his armored gums{/ooc]
And I'll make sure the oaf gets to accompany it first hand (no pun intented) so he can watch it grind to dust personally.
And then I'll come looking for a tin-plated Beckett, who no-doubt put the idea into this oaf's head to come interrupt my beauty sleep...
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Not I. Tarrasque tum tum is probably the safest place in existance for such unholy abominations.
Though personally if a group of people tried shoving a mummified hand and/or eye at me, Tarrasque or not, would run.
Few thing worse than being against a Tarrasque I can think of, but top of that list is a dead Tarrasque that believes it is Vecna. . .
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I personally think Wis should be the defining ability (even going so far to say that your Bardin Knowledge goes of Wis for this, but that is not needed), but I have often gone witht he guideline in the DL campaign for nocombat encounted xp. If the player gets the riddle right, the character gets a little bonus XP, usually like 20 - 50 xp per character level. I let them have checks to get clues.
For example in the coffin riddle, I might say something like you get a quick mental flash of a box. If they don't get an answer in two tries (two clues), than they don't get any bonus xp, or if it was a nice little encounter, half xp like traps. (CR = lowest char. level -2).
But that is more the way I would do it for the group must work together to solve. If it is a contest between 2 or more characters, PC's or NPC's, I would go with some of the above answers.