Check it out in the Paizo Blog. CMD sounds fascinating.
I say! 4 + INT skill points!
Wait a tic...
weapon training (heavy blades +3, light blades +2, close +1)
Que?
i'm thinking close is for grappling and unarmed stuff. or something similar. could be CMB things.
i'm more curious about the Armor bonus in his AC calculation.
+4 breastplate = 5 base + 4 magic +3 armor training = 12
he's listed with a 10.
he's also said to have full move (30) on a charge. so...my theory is that Armor training can spend 1 pt to offset 5' of movement penalty. that would use up 2 points and leave 1 for the AC boost making it match the 10 above. possibly even more then just those two options as well, maybe a small list of things. (armor check penalties, for example)
I say! 4 + INT skill points!
Hmm, I fear not. If I am not mistaken Valeros spend 68 skillpoints. Since he is human and has Int 13 he gets 4 skillpoints a level, 5 if he decides to add his favored class bonus. So by the beta he could have 56 to 70 skillpoints.
Let's look at his hitpoints:
14d10 + 56:
1st level 1d10 + 6(Racial) + 3(Constitution) + 1(Favored class) + 4(Toughness)
2nd level 1d10 + 3(Constitution) + 1(Favored class) + 1(Toughness)
.
.At 14th level he could get a maximum of +79 hitpoints. Since this is not the case he might have used some of his favored class bonus points for skillpoints, but wait - the discrepancy is 12 skillpoints but he's 23 hitpoints low from his theoretical maximum?
*scratches his head*
Some possible explanations
- At least humans lost their racial bonus hitpoints.
- At least humans got racial bonus skillpoints.
- Chars get more skillpoints at fist level
- My math is wrong due to caffeine withdrawal
the +56 bonus to me reads as Con +3 x 14 = 42 and toughness = +14 totalling 56. looks liek the extra boost at the start was done away with.
Fighters get a feat every level!!
Wait?
Am I forgetting this or is this new? I haven't played a fighter in quite along time and don't have a book handy.
Even taking off one for being human and four for every three that would leave 10 feats counting first level.
feats = 16.
fighter bonus =8
leveling = 7
human = 1
pathfinder gave all classes feats on odd levels.
Yea, could be. So no more racial hitpoints too?
the +56 bonus to me reads as Con +3 x 14 = 42 and toughness = +14 totalling 56. looks liek the extra boost at the start was done away with.
not seeming to be, assuming he took favored class as bonus skill point every level.
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the +56 bonus to me reads as Con +3 x 14 = 42 and toughness = +14 totalling 56. looks liek the extra boost at the start was done away with.
That's my thought too. I'm wondering if it is a set 14 HPs or if it adds +1 per level each time it's taken. The latter would seem weak until high level as it adds 14 points in this example if that's the case.
14th level and he has a +3 total will save (snicker).
I am a little surprised with everyone banging on about how the fighter has this phenomenol achilles heel it wasnt attended too, even a bit.
Yea, could be. So no more racial hitpoints too?
Racial hit points is an optional rule (see "Starting Hit Points" sidebar in the Beta, and only one of several options). I guess it was not used.
He has 14d10+56 hp, drilling down the 56 to CON-Bonus (+3) * 14 = 42, leaving 14 from Toughness, which seems to have been changed. Obviously he has no bonus hp from a favored class, meaning that he probably used his favored class bonus for skills. He has 14 ranks in all five listed skills, for a total of 5 skill points per level. 5 = 2 (fighter) + 1 (human) + 1 (INT bonus) +1 (favored class). So, no discrepancies there.
Director of Game Design
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14th level and he has a +3 total will save (snicker).
I am a little surprised with everyone banging on about how the fighter has this phenomenol achilles heel it wasnt attended too, even a bit.
I should note that the star blocks in these previews are built to show off specific themes and new rules bits, not to create a super optimized character. That, and I think that a fun weakness can really help to define a character. For Valeros, having a poor Will save sort of fits.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
First of all I would say that, unless the Breastplate has changed his base Armor Bonus, Valeros should have AC 30, not 28 (as pointed above, Breastplate 5, Enhancement 4, Armor Training 3 = 12).
Regarding hp, the header should be 14d10+59, since Toughness gives 1 hp x HD plus 3 hp... unless this has changed as well. Or maybe this regards the bonus hp for Favored Class? In this case, there are 17 hp still missing.
(Valeros has 5,5 hp x HD exceptr from the 1st level, which is maximized... 10 hp + 13x5,5 hp + 56... so he still misses at least 3 hp).
This sentence is paramount:
"Note that Valeros can move 30 feet during this charge, despite wearing a breastplate. This is due to his armor training, which allows him to move at full speed while wearing such armor."
Finally !!!
Most important, this sentence:
"He can fix this in combat by using Combat Expertise, which at his level gives him a +4 dodge bonus to his AC"
So, finally Combat Expertise has a cap which is level-based ! Perhaps Power Attack, too ?
Following the sentence:
"...(which also adds to his Combat Maneuver Defense, but more on that later)..."
We are starting to have a glimpse on which bonuses do apply to the CMB/CMD factors...
And this ices the cake:
"You might notice a new statistic in Valeros' stat block. CMD, which stands for Combat Maneuver Defense. This statistic is the DC for anyone else to perform a combat maneuver, such as bull rush, disarm, or grapple, against Valeros. This statistic is derived from his CMB +10 plus a number of other modifiers (Dexterity and deflection bonuses in this case)."
This is GOOD !!!
And lastly...
"Next week, in part 3 of our 14-week preview, we're going to take a close look at Seoni, the iconic sorcerer. And by close, I mean very close, close enough to examine her blood."
Uh, can we just look a bit less deeper - like, her flesh ;) ...
But seriously, we will see next week the Sorcerer Bloodlines... I cannot wait !!!
EDIT: uh, I see that this topic has become suddenly crowded during my typing...
Well, judging from the number of skill points, Valeros has undoubtedly chosen to take 1 extra skill point per level (so, Favored Class is still live and good).
Skill points: 2 (class) + 1 (Int) + 1 (Human) + 1 (Favored) = 5 per level - basically, 5 Skills maximized - (total 70 skill points)
Skills:
Climb +20 (14 ranks + 3 Class Skill + 3 Str) = 14 skill points
Intimidate +17 (14 ranks + 3 Class Skill + 0 Cha) = 14 skill points
Perception +13 (14 ranks again, thanks for this, Jason !!! no more lousy half-ranks for sentinels on guard !!! -1 Wis) = 14 skill points
Ride +22 (14 ranks + 3 Class Skill + 5 Dex) = 14 skill points
Swim +20 (14 ranks + 3 Class Skill + 3 Str) = 14 skill points
Aaah, how easy is now to calculate skill points for high-level characters ! No more 'Wait, what Class did he take at 5th level ? I have to see where this .5 Skill Rank went...'
Not a terribly significant question, but why dosn't his armour get listed under gear?
It's right there under Other Gear: +4 fire resistant light fortification breastplate.
...The Combat Expertise Dodge Bonus specifically applies, I wonder if ALL Dodge bonuses apply?
(I'd assume Fighting Defensively/ Full Defense would apply if Combat Expertise does,
and if they do, all Dodge Bonuses probably do also...)
If they do, it seems VERY close to "Maneuver AC", though apparently Deflection Bonuses were added in. Weapon Training was called out as applying to Maneuver Attacks/ against Disarm & Sunder, but I wonder how the remainder of Attack Bonuses (Flanking, Enhancement, etc) will be handled... If it otherwise matches the "Maneuver AC" concept, there doesn't really seem a need for a separate "CMB" stat, since Maneuver Attacks would just use normal Attack stats...???
The Standard Attack still seems to be a single attack roll, though Vital Strike applies. If this is as it appears, I'm slighty disappointed Iterative Standard Attacks didn't manifest, if only because that would have allowed combining Maneuvers with Damaging Attacks (as Standard Action).
But at least damage dealing seems like it will keep up with things!!!
...VS/IVS/Power Attack clearly look like "required" Feats for melee/Fighter types who plan on maneuvering more than 5' steps on a regular basis.
...Now all I wonder is if Valeros might be able to do something about that unimpressive AC (despite servicable DEX) by slapping a Shield Enhancement on his off-hand shortsword, on top of the +1 Shield AC he's getting from it thru his 2 Weapon Defense Feat...
...All in all, I want to say: it looks pretty damn good...
14th level and he has a +3 total will save (snicker).
I am a little surprised with everyone banging on about how the fighter has this phenomenol achilles heel it wasnt attended too, even a bit.
I should note that the star blocks in these previews are built to show off specific themes and new rules bits, not to create a super optimized character. That, and I think that a fun weakness can really help to define a character. For Valeros, having a poor Will save sort of fits.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Fair enough. I was conscious of a lot of chatter in the playtest era about how fighters are lame because despite all their bag of tricks, extra AC, extra damage etc etc they are lame because they cant resist will attacks (I dont agree) so I was interested to see if anything addressed this. I guess not. So be it. ( I still giggle at the 14th level character with a will save of +3)
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I wonder whether the CMB / CMD system could become as complex as the original 3.5 rules (which I don't have much issue with personally). Having to recalculate CMD based upon the type of maneuver being performed (Disarm versis Bullrush for exmaple) means it starts getting fiddly. Also if you are adding dexterity & deflection bonuses will CMD get changed if flatfooted?
It seems like CMD could turn into a whole stack of derived stats, so as well as having to calculate normal AC, Touch AC and Flat-footed AC, we might now also have to calculate normal CMD, Disarm/Sunder CMD, Flatfooted CMD, Flatfooted and Disarm/Sunder CMD.
ALthough I had issue with the original CMB system, I am not sure this sounds like an improvement - for example will there be an "Initial Grappled CMD" which has an inverse Size modifer (so that to grab a small foe is difficult, but once grabbed they are easy to grapple)?
Well, judging from the number of skill points, Valeros has undoubtedly chosen to take 1 extra skill point per level (so, Favored Class is still live and good).
Well, Favored Class is still live ... whether it is "good" or not is a whole other debate. :(
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Fair enough. I was conscious of a lot of chatter in the playtest era about how fighters are lame because despite all their bag of tricks, extra AC, extra damage etc etc they are lame because they cant resist will attacks (I dont agree) so I was interested to see if anything addressed this. I guess not. So be it. ( I still giggle at the 14th level character with a will save of +3)
STR 16 @ lvl 14...herumpf ! Somebody had a bad day at "roll 4d6, drop lowest".
Still, CMD base being apparently touch AC, 30ft speed and new feats look sweet.
I wonder whether the CMB / CMD system could become as complex as the original 3.5 rules (which I don't have much issue with personally). Having to recalculate CMD based upon the type of maneuver being performed (Disarm versis Bullrush for exmaple) means it starts getting fiddly. Also if you are adding dexterity & deflection bonuses will CMD get changed if flatfooted?
It seems like CMD could turn into a whole stack of derived stats, so as well as having to calculate normal AC, Touch AC and Flat-footed AC, we might now also have to calculate normal CMD, Disarm/Sunder CMD, Flatfooted CMD, Flatfooted and Disarm/Sunder CMD.
ALthough I had issue with the original CMB system, I am not sure this sounds like an improvement - for example will there be an "Initial Grappled CMD" which has an inverse Size modifer (so that to grab a small foe is difficult, but once grabbed they are easy to grapple)?
I think this is a simple clarifying of the rules we already used in the Beta Playtest.
During the playtest, for example, it came clear that the Grapple rules had a difference whether you were actively grappling or merely defending from the grapple and trying to escape.
The 'grappler' could deal damage, pin the foe, etc. and had some bonuses to his CMB (+5) if the 'grappled' didn't escape.
The 'grappled', on the contrary, had no bonuses, could only break free, etc.
Basically, the 'grappler' gains a +5 to his CMB after the first maneuver - we don't know if this applies to his CMD as well, but probably not (he has the upper edge to deal damage, not necessarily to prevent him to escape).
The 'grappled' has no bonuses on his CMD.
Various feats already gave a +2 'conditional' bonus (Improved Trip = +2 CMB on Trip attempts, Improved Disarm = +2 CMB on Disarm attempts).
A feat gave a +4 bonus on CMB for defensive purposes only (Defensive Combat Training) - now, this would translate in +4 to CMD.
Various features gave bonuses to CMB for various purposes - the Stability racial feature of Dwarves, for example, which gave a +4 to CMB when subjected to Bull Rush and Trip; now this has changed to +4 to CMD against the same conditions.
Previously, the CMB defensive value (now CMD) was 15 + CMB, but several people noticed that this was effectively too high; now CMD it's basically (more or less) Touch AC + CMB.
Just my 2c.
i'm thinking close is for grappling and unarmed stuff. or something similar. could be CMB things.i'm more curious about the Armor bonus in his AC calculation.
+4 breastplate = 5 base + 4 magic +3 armor training = 12
he's listed with a 10.
he's also said to have full move (30) on a charge. so...my theory is that Armor training can spend 1 pt to offset 5' of movement penalty. that would use up 2 points and leave 1 for the AC boost making it match the 10 above. possibly even more then just those two options as well, maybe a small list of things. (armor check penalties, for example)
Probably.
In this case,he perhaps gains +1AC,+2 increase to the max dex bonus,and -3 reduction to the Armor Check Penalty,and offsets speeddown.Maybe he can select out of some types of training.
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The Standard Attack still seems to be a single attack roll, though Vital Strike applies. If this is as it appears, I'm slighty disappointed Iterative Standard Attacks didn't manifest, if only because that would have allowed combining Maneuvers with Damaging Attacks (as Standard Action).
But at least damage dealing seems like it will keep up with things!!!
...VS/IVS/Power Attack clearly look like "required" Feats for melee/Fighter types who plan on maneuvering more than 5' steps on a regular basis.
It's *great* that Vital Strike applies, although I, too, think that iterative attacks should have granted flat bonuses (+1/2 X your level per attack or so?) to everyone's damage (as you said, mobile fighters now simply *have* to take VS/IVS). But, it's a good change and my group's fighter should be *very* happy to see this! :)
...Now all I wonder is if Valeros might be able to do something about that unimpressive AC (despite servicable DEX) by slapping a Shield Enhancement on his off-hand shortsword, on top of the +1 Shield AC he's getting from it thru his 2 Weapon Defense Feat...
...All in all, I want to say: it looks pretty damn good...
I so hoped that Two-Weapon Defense would have scaled up just as Dodge did in Beta (e.g. +2 with BAB +10).
It's *very* nice, though, that Dodge Bonuses are apparently added to your CMD! :)
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This sentence is paramount:
"Note that Valeros can move 30 feet during this charge, despite wearing a breastplate. This is due to his armor training, which allows him to move at full speed while wearing such armor."
Finally !!!
Hmmm... I hope this change doesn't make magical light armor (and builds who rely on mobility and less "oomph") completely redundant at high levels; it would be better if it applies *only* to Charging. I think 'Armor Training' was already good enough in Beta...
Most important, this sentence:
"He can fix this in combat by using Combat Expertise, which at his level gives him a +4 dodge bonus to his AC"
So, finally Combat Expertise has a cap which is level-based ! Perhaps Power Attack, too ?
BRILLIANT! No PCs in my group took Combat Expertise, and the general consensus among my players was (and I agree) that they worked a lot better in 3E. Now, in my opinion this is even better than the 3E version -- apparently it's +1 per every three levels for CE and +2 for every three levels for PA (maybe even +3 with two-handed weapons?).
Great work, Jason! :D
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- The damage output of Improved Vital Strike is way higher than Overhand Chop, even in a high Str medium weapon damage dice scenario.
Remember OC is a gateway feat to Backswing, and a feat you can get at a much lower level then Vital Strike, it make sense that OC is not as good, but for a level 5-10 two handed wielder you can do some mighty damage with OC + Power Attack, especially if you are a high str / barbarian type.
Looks like most of the things I noticed have been identified:
- Breastplate either is dropped to +3 Armor, Armor Training doesn't add (always) all of it to AC, or the AC is off.
- Toughness lost its +3 at 1st level (or hp are off).
- Valeros really needs a cloak of resistance.
- Improved Vital Strike BAB bonus prereq is reduced (yay monks?)
- Power Attack gives 2x a BAB or level based penalty as bonus damage to primary, 1x to off-hand, and probably 3x to two-handed. [Not sure if I like this - Double Slice and the new PA finally made offhand damage bonus = primary for easy calculation.]
- Not covered: Why a shortbow? Ahh.. the Ride ranks.
- Not covered and most important: Language: Halfling. Now we know who really catches Valeros' eye.
By the way for the person who asked, "Close" weapon types was already a listed category in the Beta.
Do we have a description of how the ring of the ram works with the new Bull Rush rules?
Any reason it shouldn't work the same as now? It gives a specific Bull Rush bonus, roll that, knock someone back if you make it.
No one wonders why Valeros gets +7 Will Save vs. Fear when his Bravery only gives him +4?
No one wonders why Valeros gets +7 Will Save vs. Fear when his Bravery only gives him +4?
Will +3, +4 Bravery = +7 :)
No one wonders why Valeros gets +7 Will Save vs. Fear when his Bravery only gives him +4?Will +3, +4 Bravery = +7 :)
That would do it...
I'm not sure why I thought that was an additional +7 Save vs. Fear. :S
Power Attack gives 2x a BAB or level based penalty as bonus damage to primary, 1x to off-hand, and probably 3x to two-handed. [Not sure if I like this - Double Slice and the new PA finally made offhand damage bonus = primary for easy calculation.
I don't think Double Slice would ramp up the bonus gained from Power Attack, just the main Str bonus.