The characters I am dming for are now 15th level. The sorcerer has taken polymorph as one of his new spells. His plan, since he can cast 5th level spells so many times, is to cast polymorph on the whole party into earth elementals so they can earthglide through the entire dungeon.
I have a dark, evil temple, built by evil priestesses. There is one final chamber that is heavily protected by ward spells etc, but short of lining the entire temple (or just that final room) with solid metal, I am having a hard time seeing how to prevent the pc's from just gliding through the dungeon to wherever they like. Now certainly there are those who would suggest I am being a pita dm who just wants to make his players lives more difficult but I submit that I simply have put a lot of work into this dungeon and formed this elaborate mechanism for the players to open the final doors involving finding keys spread throughout the temple. If this works as it appears it should then the pcs can skip to the final room and bypass dozens of wards.
I had started reading the 3.0 stronghold builders guidebook looking for some ideas but the best I came up with (admittedly I only read the first chapter or two) involved either lining all of the walls with lead, or having rebar metal rods supporting the temples stone walls. As a side note, the temple is underground and I would like whatever solution there is to make some semblance of sense. The alternative is they just skip to the final room despite multiple high level evil priestesses protecting that room from incursion.
Thoughts?
Also on a sidenote, it would be helpful if there was a book titled "Ok you are an evil overlord, here is how to defend your lair from those annoying PC's" for DM's looking to come up with creative defenses for bad guy hang-outs.
Polymorphing into an earth elemental does not turn you into an actual elemental.
It just gives you the shape, not the powers.
Therefore you cannot walk through stone as the real creature.
And if the rules say otherwise, you can still rule it this way.
Polymorph is just a 4th level spell. That's not Shapechange.
Polymorphing into an earth elemental does not turn you into an actual elemental.
It just gives you the shape, not the powers.
Therefore you cannot walk through stone as the real creature.
And if the rules say otherwise, you can still rule it this way.
Polymorph is just a 4th level spell. That's not Shapechange.
In the Pathfinder Beta rules, it explicitly says that turning into an earth elemental gives you the Earth Glide ability.
My two cents: just say that it's common knowledge among dungeon builders to line the walls with lead. Let your PCs know as well.
Polymorphing into an earth elemental does not turn you into an actual elemental.
It just gives you the shape, not the powers.
Therefore you cannot walk through stone as the real creature.
And if the rules say otherwise, you can still rule it this way.
Polymorph is just a 4th level spell. That's not Shapechange.
It's explicitly granted in PRPG:
Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental,
you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Strength and a +4 natural
armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet, the push ability, and the
ability to earthglide.
EDIT: As hogarth says with his ninja skills...
My two cents: just say that it's common knowledge among dungeon builders to line the walls with lead. Let your PCs know as well.
Entirely agree. In a magical world, any villain of sufficient power to challenge the PCs will do the common stuff to prevent them from violating his sanctum--lead, antimagic, etherstuff walls, dimensional locks, etc. If it were as easy as casting a spell 4-5 levels under the max spell level for the encounter, then the villain would never have made it to such lofty heights.
Polymorphing into an earth elemental does not turn you into an actual elemental.
It just gives you the shape, not the powers.
Therefore you cannot walk through stone as the real creature.
And if the rules say otherwise, you can still rule it this way.
Polymorph is just a 4th level spell. That's not Shapechange.
I think you may be confused...
Text of Polymorph:
School transmutation (polymorph); Level wizard/sorcerer 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you choose)
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration 1 min/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
This spell transforms a willing creature into an animal, humanoid or elemental of your choosing; the spell has no effect on unwilling creatures. If you use this spell to cause the target to take on the form of an animal or magical beast, it functions as beast shape II. If the form is that of an elemental, the spell functions as elemental body I.
Text of Elemental Body 1:
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (the element you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of a Small air, earth, fire or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental you change into. Elemental abilities based on size, such as burn, vortex, and whirlwind, use the size of the elemental you transform into to determine their effect.
Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet, the push ability, and the ability to earthglide.
My two cents: just say that it's common knowledge among dungeon builders to line the walls with lead. Let your PCs know as well.
Now that's just crazy talk.
Lining every wall of an entire dungeon with lead would cost more than building, trapping, furnishing, and populating the dungeon.
Seriously impractical.
Unless your Fabricate spell is up to the task...
Entirely agree. In a magical world, any villain of sufficient power to challenge the PCs will do the common stuff to prevent them from violating his sanctum--lead, antimagic, etherstuff walls, dimensional locks, etc. If it were as easy as casting a spell 4-5 levels under the max spell level for the encounter, then the villain would never have made it to such lofty heights.
I had decided to simply say that the evil priestesses worked with some high level mages to line the inner sanctum with walls of iron. I did not want to tell the players that it is common to do that because then they will all say "Oh great. Now that we came up with a brilliant way around all of the priestesses defenses all of a sudden its common to line temple walls with iron. Sure. That seems logical. Ok, next time you don't want us to be creative just tell us not to." See? This comes down to a matter of the DM having limited time to construct the temple and encounters and not thinking of every contingency that 5 very intelligent players can think of. DM's are always at a disadvantage lol
Anyway, are there other spells that would work to prevent things like Stone Shape spell or Earthglide? I know that things like Ethereal and Phase Door type stuff is easily prevented with things like Forbiddance and Dimensional Lock etc but the old stone shape through the wall or earthglide under the entire temple makes things harder.
Now that's just crazy talk.
Lining every wall of an entire dungeon with lead would cost more than building, trapping, furnishing, and populating the dungeon.
Seriously impractical.
Unless your Fabricate spell is up to the task...
My thoughts as well. I want my dungeons to be at least somewhat believable. Walking through an entirely lead (or other metal) lined dungeon strains the old suspension of disbelief factor for me. That's why I thought I'd hop on here and see if you other DM's might know of some spell (like a forbiddance or dimensional lock type spell) that might work well in this scenario.
Something other than "its the great shiny dungeon" solution.
Much much more efficient than lining the walls with anything that keeps elementals out, is simply placing a bubble of antimagic around most of key areas.
It's expensive, but it will pay for itself when those level 15 adventurers find they are 30' away from the nearest air, packed into solid stone, and their polymorph spell just went away.
Buried alive.
But worse, that solid stone and packed earth isn't just around them; it's inside of them too.
Inside their eyelids. In their mouths. In their noses and sinuses and ears and rectums. In their lungs. In their veins and arteries and every hollow nook and cranny of their body.
Instant death.
Just have your own, very real earth elemental, go collect all their coins and magic items and you're rich.
And if the villain has a friendly DM, he might even get XP for killing those adventurers with a clever trap of his own creation.
<snip>great ideas</snip>
That all sounds awesome... except.. once again the rules get in the way. You could not cast an antimagic field that reaches into the ground, because emanations need line of effect. Once it hits the ground it stops.
Because I don't have access to the complete description of earthglide some questions come to mind:
How far through solid stone can a player "see" while earthgliding?
How will the party stay together? Ropes? Hold hands?
What's in between the corridors and rooms in your temple? Is it all solid stone? Are there unknown chambers inhabited by other earth elementals and their kin that the PCs might wander into?
Could the lead PC step through stone into the open space they were able to "sense" and discover that the space is a massive underground canyon? New mission: Recover corpse for ressurection!
Just a few quick thoughts.
SB
<snip>great ideas</snip>That all sounds awesome... except.. once again the rules get in the way. You could not cast an antimagic field that reaches into the ground, because emanations need line of effect. Once it hits the ground it stops.
Bummer.
Surely there is a justification for a powerful dungeon-building wizard to invent a below-ground antimagic shield that isn't inhibited by this rule?
If not, then it's plan B:
The dungeon builder raises, from little infantile hatchlings (?) a score or more loyal purple worms and sets them to guard duty around his dungeon.
Oh, and he trains them to prefer the yummy crunchy goodness of earth elementals as their favorite snack food, like a dog loves a bone.
Try to earthglide out of a purple worm's belly...
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I don't like the lead-lining idea, personally. It seems like it's been done to punish the players for coming up with an innovative idea. It might work in some circumstances (like a recently-constructed lair of an evil archmage), but doesn't make sense in others (an ancient dwarven mining complex). It seems too much like that standard "Oh, teleport doesn't work in this dungeon. Sorry!" I hate taking options away from the players, particularly when they come up with a good idea.
I would, however, force them to deal with the consequences of skipping ahead such as their lack of foreknowledge (you can glide through stone, but you still can't see through it, so the PCs will blunder into rooms in general), and all the problems of diving headfirst deep into enemy territory. They're cut off from all sides and have no safe location to fall back to.
This is an interesting strategy and could go really well sometimes (find an easy way to sneak into the treasure room, for example) and go really poorly other times (blunder into the enemy barracks where most of the guards and soldiers are current resting; the alarm is raised).
Hey, here's something I don't get.
When summoned to the Material Plane, an earth elemental consists of whatever types of dirt, stones, precious metals, and gems it was conjured from.
So an earth elemental could actually have metal as part of its body.
But metal stops it from Earthgliding?
Worse, how awkward would it be to dravel through the ground, earthgliding, but be unable to pass through any metal at all?
That would be about like us, walking around in the air, but unable to pass through dust.
We couldn't go anywhere.
Neither could an earth elemental impeded by metal.
Just a thought...
Could you make the dungeon roughly spherical, with the final chamber at its core? That way they'd have to at least go through some of the rooms, even if they make a beeline for the middle.
How far through solid stone can a player "see" while earthgliding?
Before the last session ended this came up. Elemental Body 1, if you choose Earth Elemental, gives you Darkvision 60'. As I could not see any other method of sensing visually for an elemental I determined that that must be how elementals see underground. Obviously it doesn't make sense as its not just dark, its solid, there is 0 visibility, but, elementals do not have tremor sense (which I thought they might). So, since darkvision is how earth elementals see I decided that the PC's must be able to see, at least to 60' and then its gone, solid wall of blackness.
How will the party stay together? Ropes? Hold hands?
Considering my ruling on darkvision, they all just planned to stay within 60' of each other. In reality they stayed in normal marching order.
What's in between the corridors and rooms in your temple? Is it all solid stone?
No, its large, 2-3' cut stones for walls, floors, and ceilings, and then the space that is not stone is filled with natural earth (or natural stone as the case may be). The temple is built into the side of a mountain.
Are there unknown chambers inhabited by other earth elementals and their kin that the PCs might wander into?
No elementals. The temple has been abandoned for hundreds of years but some golems, undead, and ancient traps remain (along with a couple of demons the priestesses summoned that were trapped in summoning circles).
Could the lead PC step through stone into the open space they were able to "sense" and discover that the space is a massive underground canyon? New mission: Recover corpse for ressurection!
lol
Just a few quick thoughts.
SB
Thanks for commenting. I'm still looking for more ideas. Ideas that don't seem overtly arbitrary are best! :)
I would, however, force them to deal with the consequences of skipping ahead such as their lack of foreknowledge (you can glide through stone, but you still can't see through it, so the PCs will blunder into rooms in general), and all the problems of diving headfirst deep into enemy territory. They're cut off from all sides and have no safe location to fall back to.
There's a nice idea in here.
This dungeon is underground, right?
So the PCs can only guess the layout?
So make the players guess.
Create an effective 3-d map and have the players describe their underground motion step by step.
Players: I go 10' straight ahead.
DM: Nothing here but dirt.
Players: I go 10' more.
DM: Nothing here but dirt too.
Players: I go 10' to my right.
DM: can't - this space is filled with several nuggets. Feels like copper. But the square is impassible.
Players: Fine. Left then.
DM: Just dirt here.
Players: OK, 10' straight ahead.
DM: on your new course, or do you mean straight ahead based on your initial course?
Players: the new one.
DM: Just dirt.
One Player: Hey, guys, why not...
DM: No! No talking, you guys are unable to communicate.
Player: Fine, I head back to the surface and hope my buddies can sense that I'm leaving and will follow me. We're going in the front door...
If they get lucky enough to blunder into a room, so be it. They encounter that room.
Or, sneaky DM, you can put a 300' spiral staircase straight down in the first room. They will never find the back rooms. Ever. Your players will give up long before they systematically explore that giant volume of earth.
Even more fun, you can always retro-map your dungeon. Suppose they blunder into room 6, but you want them in room 4. No problem. Poof they are in room 4 and you just add 30' of corridor back near the entrance to position room 4 right where the elementals emerge.
All of that is, of course, if the tremorsensing purple worms haven't already eaten them...
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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As you planned the dungeon requiring keys to breach the inner most sanctum of the temple who's to say that the sanctum is on the same plane as the rest of the dungeon? There's nothing to stop you from placing it in a demiplane or the Plane of Shadow that can only be accessed by the keys you've spread throughout the dungeon.
Let the earth elemental idea work... at least for the first few encounters they face. Once the defenders in the temple know what tactic they are using let them come up with a way to defend against it. I mean they built an entire complex underground which means they are sure to have scrolls of Move Earth on hand for repairing cave-ins or collapses.
Also remember Earth Elementals suffer a -4 attack and damage penalty vs. airborn or waterborn opponents. Take to the air or flood a room.
--Between a Vrock and hardplace!
EDIT... It sounds like your Dungeon is a Static location. Abandoned for hundreds of years with trapped constructs, Undead, bound outsiders, and magical and mechanical traps? You really should have ACTIVE inhabitants sprinkled in.
I did not want to tell the players that it is common to do that because then they will all say "Oh great. Now that we came up with a brilliant way around all of the priestesses defenses all of a sudden its common to line temple walls with iron. Sure. That seems logical. Ok, next time you don't want us to be creative just tell us not to."
...It's logical for the PC's to be creative but not for the NPCs? And such an utterly obvious application of the spell (i.e. it's doing exactly what's intended/ expected) would not enter the thoughts of high level casters preparing defenses?
In any case, assuming all the walls remain of stone: It's practically certain the PCs will pass across the stone wall/cieling/etc surfaces multiple times on the way to finding the central chamber even if they have a rough idea of the dungeon layout. If they don't have a rough idea they will be doing so practically constantly.
That means there's very very good chances they'll be detected. And if the temple complex is alerted to Stone-Gliding intruders, almost certainly headed for central chamber, that means all these priestesses you have scattered about would likely converge on the central chamber to defend it. Which may or may not be a worse scenario than running into them individually (more or less) in the dungeon as normal.
I *really* don't think an individual spell is supposed to competely bypass entire adventures: it should offer a situational advantage, that once used, the world will adapt around. If your players expect otherwise and think they can say "ha ha! we pushed the win button! and if you do anything that counters us you're a cheating, meany DM!", I suggest you introduce them to some computer games and find other players to DM for.
How far through solid stone can a player "see" while earthgliding?Before the last session ended this came up. Elemental Body 1, if you choose Earth Elemental, gives you Darkvision 60'. As I could not see any other method of sensing visually for an elemental I determined that that must be how elementals see underground. Obviously it doesn't make sense as its not just dark, its solid, there is 0 visibility, but, elementals do not have tremor sense (which I thought they might). So, since darkvision is how earth elementals see I decided that the PC's must be able to see, at least to 60' and then its gone, solid wall of blackness.
My best judgement is they use Tremorsense, which the user of a spell doesn't get. But there really isn't anything clear about it. So your guess is just as good as mine.
Could you make the dungeon roughly spherical, with the final chamber at its core? That way they'd have to at least go through some of the rooms, even if they make a beeline for the middle.
The dungeon layout has long since been finished and the pc's have already explored about 50% of it. When they discovered the huge doors protecting the final chamber they discovered that they needed to locate 6 keys that were spread throughout the dungeon. They weren't just sprinkled about for no reason, they were carried on former priestesses who had died in the temple after a summoning went awry and/or they were hidden in various locations (desks, clay jugs in the library etc).
So the players know the general floor plan, and know generally where the final room is. They have no idea what is beyond the door, so that part can be altered as needed. However, I did already have the inner sanctum designed around a pool and evil statue etc. I don't want to have to change the room unless necessary.
The easiest solution was to just say the clerics had a sorceress cast a crap load of Walls of Iron inside the sanctum, lining all walls, ceiling, and floor. However, that is a very unsatisfying solution as it, as others have said, smacks of arbitrariness, and I am sure to get groans from the players.
I think the doors actually being a portal to a demi-plane is very smooth and non-cheesy. I'd even go ahead and make this demi-plane linked to the diety and affected by an uber-non-dispellable Desecrate effect. But if it's a demi-plane linked thru a portal, it's just not a matter of passing thru a wall to get into a room... Though since the portal appears as a door, your players may think they're all ingenious until passing thru the stone walls yields... solid stone where the 'chamber' is supposed to be. :-)
EDIT: As mentioned, building such an underground complex would likely mean the temple has access to Move Earth and similar spells as to the PCs... Could be interesting to run across a Priestess ALSO Earthgliding to short-cut her way thru the temple and avoid minions she'd rather not deal with :-)
As you planned the dungeon requiring keys to breach the inner most sanctum of the temple who's to say that the sanctum is on the same plane as the rest of the dungeon? There's nothing to stop you from placing it in a demiplane or the Plane of Shadow that can only be accessed by the keys you've spread throughout the dungeon.
Let the earth elemental idea work... at least for the first few encounters they face. Once the defenders in the temple know what tactic they are using let them come up with a way to defend against it. I mean they built an entire complex underground which means they are sure to have scrolls of Move Earth on hand for repairing cave-ins or collapses.
Also remember Earth Elementals suffer a -4 attack and damage penalty vs. airborn or waterborn opponents. Take to the air or flood a room.
--Between a Vrock and hardplace!
Hmm. Now that idea is intriguing. As it happens, this temple was inhabited by evil priestesses hundreds of years ago but they abandoned it after they summoned a Bonedrinker Devil that kicked their asses. Luckily for them the temple was under the effects of a few spells that locked the devil inside. The priestesses fled further up the mountain in order to establish a new temple, which they did. The PC's were exploring the lower, abandoned temple, in search of a Staff of Power which they need in order to destroy a device the priestesses are using to attune a planar tap from their dark gods plane to this one. The idea is the pcs gain the staff, get to use it a few times, and then have to destroy it to stop the priestesses from bringing their god here.
If the inner sanctum of the abandoned temple was on another plane, that might tie into the overall storyline in an interesting way. I will have to ponder this one!
Thanks for commenting. I'm still looking for more ideas. Ideas that don't seem overtly arbitrary are best! :)
Hmm.
- Would the big bad employ his/her own earth elementals to patrol the grounds? Perhaps with a way for them to summon really powerful ones?
- Would the treasure room/high temple have a layered defense? Outside of the stone walls, there could be a surrounding airspace with a shaped antimagic field. Earthgliders find themselves in very small very dark room without any means of performing magic, or any magic items that work? Perhaps filled with poison gas, swarms of miniature rust monsters, and ooze.
I think the doors actually being a portal to a demi-plane is very smooth and non-cheesy. I'd even go ahead and make this demi-plane linked to the diety and affected by an uber-non-dispellable Desecrate effect. But if it's a demi-plane linked thru a portal, it's just not a matter of passing thru a wall to get into a room... Though since the portal appears as a door, your players may think they're all ingenious until passing thru the stone walls yields... solid stone where the 'chamber' is supposed to be. :-)
I really like this idea. It is not cheesy and makes me look both creative AND smart! A perfect solution! Now I just have to rejigger my map a bit... Fun stuff!
EDIT: As mentioned, building such an underground complex would likely mean the temple has access to Move Earth and similar spells as to the PCs... Could be interesting to run across a Priestess ALSO Earthgliding to short-cut her way thru the temple and avoid minions she'd rather not deal with :-)
The priestesses have abandoned this temple but much magic loot remains defended by golems and undead. They have cleared about 50% of the dungeon and thought they'd skip ahead. In all honesty I had not fully fleshed out the final chamber as I did not anticipate them getting there so quickly.
I knew I could count on you guys!
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I think in light of the sisterhood having another fortress nearby you might want them to learn of the PC's poking around in their old digs. Nothing like some manner of magical alarm, maybe a permanent status spell on a bound demon? Then you could use Quandry's idea of a strike team investigating the violation of their former temple.
--Vrock n' Roll!
How far through solid stone can a player "see" while earthgliding?Before the last session ended this came up. Elemental Body 1, if you choose Earth Elemental, gives you Darkvision 60'. As I could not see any other method of sensing visually for an elemental I determined that that must be how elementals see underground. Obviously it doesn't make sense as its not just dark, its solid, there is 0 visibility, but, elementals do not have tremor sense (which I thought they might). So, since darkvision is how earth elementals see I decided that the PC's must be able to see, at least to 60' and then its gone, solid wall of blackness.
Oooh, tough call on the darkvision.
I would highly suggest revising that.
Just say "Whoops, I thought about it, and I was wrong."
Here's why.
Darkvision, like all vision, requires line of sight from the viewer's eyeball to whatever he is viewing.
A dwarf with darkvision cannot see 60' through stone. He has no line of sight through the stone.
Same with earth elementals.
Nothing actually sees through the ground. That is what tremorsense is for.
You're right, earth elementals are lacking tremorsense, which is problematic for them.
So, you can leave your ruling as is, saying the elemental gets an ability that no other creature in any of the monster manuals (as far as I know) gets, the ability to utilize vision without line of sight.
Or you can rule that earth elementals get tremorsense.
Or go a different direction, giving them something equivalent to blind fighting, the ability to sense things that are extremely close - within reach.
As for me, I think it makes no sense (no pun intended) that earth elementals lack tremorsense.
But I can't justify letting them see without line of sight.
I gave up on mundane dungeons for high-level characters long ago. Unless you make the thing air-tight (literally), then wind walk already has everybody moving through the whole thing freely. As such, high-level dungeon automatically equals magical for me.
The demi-plane idea is a good one, still requiring them to collect the keys and preventing straight shot to the end-game. It even has a logical bearing if there was an extra-planar threat long ago--the former priest-types wanted to lock the place up but allow them to get back in if necessary in the future. Of course, that gets into the "find the random item(s) to proceed" ploy which drives lots of folks crazy and I'm certain caused the creation of the dreaded dungeon-buzz-kill spell find the path.
When you get into it there are many things troublesome about elementals and earthglide etc.
Can an elemental attack another elemental underground? One would think that being within solid rock is their native terrain and so they should be able to act as you or I would when walking on the street. However, by the mechanics I guess anything underground would have 100% cover at all times.
Can an elemental speak to another elemental? I'd guess not since they can't exactly shout through the stone.
So... then what makes sense? Its almost as if you said that when the elementals go into the ground they kind of go ethereal, they are part on the prime material plane and part on the elemental plane.
Oh, and yes, please give them tremor sense or they will never know where other creatures are. For that matter though, how would they detect something that wasn't moving?
Sigh.
Of course, that gets into the "find the random item(s) to proceed" ploy which drives lots of folks crazy and I'm certain cause the creation of the dreaded dungeon-buzz-kill spell find the path.
Yes, but at least the Spell Compendium has Hide the Path! :)
Of course, that gets into the "find the random item(s) to proceed" ploy which drives lots of folks crazy and I'm certain cause the creation of the dreaded dungeon-buzz-kill spell find the path.Yes, but at least the Spell Compendium has Hide the Path! :)
And of course, Pathfinder may one-up that and axe the thing altogether. At least as written in PF beta it's not as irritating...
I actually had a custom-made orb of hidden paths in my last encounter for our home brew Savage Tides game. The party doesn't actually use any divinations, but it made sense for the villain (a CR 23 cleric) to have such a thing as treasure.
When you get into it there are many things troublesome about elementals and earthglide etc.
Can an elemental attack another elemental underground? One would think that being within solid rock is their native terrain and so they should be able to act as you or I would when walking on the street. However, by the mechanics I guess anything underground would have 100% cover at all times.
That's a double-edged question.
No, they don't have cover from each other, because they can move through earth as easily as "a fish through water".
Water doesn't give one fish cover against other fish, so earth doesn't give anyone cover against an elemental that can earthglide.
But, I don't think they can fight each other, because the SRD specifically says they are composed of the same materials as the ground in the area where they are summoned.
They can move through that ground like "a fish through water" which means, since they are made of the same stuff, they move through each other like "a fish through water" too.
Much like a fish trying to bite another fish, but they're both made of the same water they are swimming in.
Can an elemental speak to another elemental? I'd guess not since they can't exactly shout through the stone.
Yes.
They can move their mouths, vocal chords, and lungs just fine underground (like a fish can move its mouth and lungs under water).
Sound carries through ground (or else Tanto would never have been able to put his ear to the ground and tell the Lone Ranger how many bandits were coming).
Now, depending on the materials involved and the frequency of the sound, sound may not travel nearly as far as it would ouside, so elementals may have to get really close to chit-chat, but certainly no closer than you and I would have to be to chit-chat via whispers.
So... then what makes sense? Its almost as if you said that when the elementals go into the ground they kind of go ethereal, they are part on the prime material plane and part on the elemental plane.
Maybe.
But then you should apply that to all types of elemental.
And this would make all of them vulnerable to attacks on both planes on which they co-exist.
That's a lot of complication.
I just think of earthgliding elementals as sharing the same space as the earth. After all, it's all just molecules, and those are mostly empty space. So, with a little help from Mother Nature (magic), the molecules of the elemental share space with the molecules of the earth - all without any atomic explosions (Mother Nature really really doesn't like those).
Oh, and yes, please give them tremor sense or they will never know where other creatures are. For that matter though, how would they detect something that wasn't moving?
Agreed. And done, for my campaign anyway.
The same way a T-Rex detects Dr. Grant: it doesn't.
I actually had a custom-made orb of hidden paths in my last encounter for our home brew Savage Tides game. The party doesn't actually use any divinations, but it made sense for the villain (a CR 23 cleric) to have such a thing as treasure.
Nice idea.
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I don't know if anyone else mentioned it, but if it is an "evil" temple, you can use the taint rules from Heroes of Horror. As they figure out their way to the end room via earthglide, the stronger the taint becomes. The characters could feel the vileness of the place flow their bodies, tearing at their souls, etc. Any "good" characters or players should figure that is a bad idea, and look for a different path in. If they continue to move forward, the higher the taint, and the worse off the corruption to the characters will be.
Couple of thought... First, someone mentioned that since earth elementals are possibly composed partially of metal, they should be able to pass through metal. That may be true... sort of. They may be able to pass through ore, but not refined metal or alloys.
As for defenses against earth elementals, you could give them a few rooms here and there as freebies. For the others, though, say that the priests have set up cheap magic traps that, when living things come near them, they release a blast of negative energy. Could be as simple as an iron spike driven into the wall that does 1d6 damage (depending on the level of priest). That way, you could give the party the option of going slower to search for traps and bypass them after they run into a couple. They will feel like they still have some control. For the inner sanctum, the walls may be riddled with the traps. They could have a short radius, like 10'. If the party just hauls ass through the dungeon, they will probably hit 1 or 2 before they decide to slow down and be cautious.
Also, I would give earth elementals tremor sense. As a side note, I would rule that they communicate through subtle vibrations that will carry through solid objects that is such a low resonance that humans can't hear it. Of course, since the characters don't get the terran language as a bonus for changing shape, they might "hear" the vibration, but not understand it so they can't communicate... unless they do actually speak Terran.
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Well, sounds like a wonderful idea by the PCs to me. Kudos for thinking outside the box.
Easy kills for the GM though. 15th level Sorcerer. That means each spell only lasts 15 minutes.
Ok, they now get to each, individually, and without aid from one another describe where they are going. Using the "Ok you went 10 feet this round and you find dirt" is a great way to describe their progress. Very very very soon the PCs will be completely separated. They only have 15 minutes to find a room, any room, or they die.
The sorcerer is the first to find a room! He pops out of the wall into a room with a 40' ceiling, falling to the floor for 3d6 damage (rolled d4 randomly to see where he popped out). Surprise round! Roll initiative against the two Golems. No, your party is not here to help you. Ok you run away. There is a trap at that door, another 3d6 damage plus a FORT save for poison. You only 16 Hit Points left? Darn, better hope the cleric chose a route to get to this very spot. Good luck dude. Ummm you have any other character you wanna work on while I take a few minutes with the Druid?
Druid fails to find a room and dies.
The other PCs all end up in completely different levels of the dungeon and are now all on their own.
Good luck.
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The more I think about this I just think it is a BAAAAD idea for PCs to try this, and an easy total party kill. Now, usually a GM doesn't WANT to end all his work up to this point, just so he can show the players how bad an idea their good idea is.
I think I would allow each PC to make an Intelligence (15) check, or Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (10) check. Any that succeed receive an explanation of just how this plan requires the GM to run it in order to replicate this plan.
"You will all be separated, and describe your individual movement and actions round by round- without being in the same room as the other players. You gain no ability to communicate with one another so each of you will be on your own to describe your actions. You will have exactly 150 rounds from the moment the spell is cast on you to find a chamber of some kind. On round 151 you return to normal, regardless of where you are and may die as a consequence. Good luck, and pray the gods are seriously looking out for you. You're going to need it."
At this point I would let the Players decide if they wish to go ahead with this plan. If so, I'd start making a player for myself and let some other bozo run a game for a bit.
Also remember Earth Elementals suffer a -4 attack and damage penalty vs. airborn or waterborn opponents. Take to the air or flood a room.
Technically, this won't work. The Earth Mastery is not included on the list of abilities gained, so no bonusses or penalties for being in or out of your element.
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I had a similar incident with a player during my CotCT game. At the time I ruled that worked stone was not "earth".
This allowed the earthglide ability to remain useful in situations where the dungeon walls were natural stone or when the group was out doors, while not allowing it to ruin a worked dungeon.
I like some of these ideas though. Better than what I came up with at the time.
Tam
The sorcerer is the first to find a room! He pops out of the wall into a room with a 40' ceiling, falling to the floor for 3d6 damage (rolled d4 randomly to see where he popped out). Surprise round! Roll initiative against the two Golems. No, your party is not here to help you. Ok you run away. There is a trap at that door, another 3d6 damage plus a FORT save for poison. You only 16 Hit Points left? Darn, better hope the cleric chose a route to get to this very spot. Good luck dude. Ummm you have any other character you wanna work on while I take a few minutes with the Druid?
I'd imagine that as soon as part of the character breaks into an air filled room he'd stop right there and not just continue completely out of the wall/floor/ceiling. Also, if he should find himself in a trapped and/or guarded room, what's to prevent him from diving right back into the stone and avoid the encounter (apart from the spell expiring, of course, but then it's one spell he needs to get off and into the stone he goes again)?
Druid fails to find a room and dies.
Not necessarily, if I was the druid I'd just use my own ability to change into an elemental. Yes, there's a duration, but it's much, much longer and should be "safe" from the time limiting factor.
Lining every wall of an entire dungeon with lead would cost more than building, trapping, furnishing, and populating the dungeon.
Much much more efficient than lining the walls with anything that keeps elementals out, is simply placing a bubble of antimagic around most of key areas.
What colour is the sky in your world, where a thin layer of lead is prohibitively expensive, but multiple permanent antimagic fields are cost-effective?
;-)
Also, ... I would rule that they communicate through subtle vibrations that will carry through solid objects that is such a low resonance that humans can't hear it. Of course, since the characters don't get the terran language as a bonus for changing shape, they might "hear" the vibration, but not understand it so they can't communicate... unless they do actually speak Terran.
I like this. Pretty cool.
Well, sounds like a wonderful idea by the PCs to me. Kudos for thinking outside the box.
Which is why I do not want to kill it outright. I want to applaud and reward their creativity yet also salvage some of my adventure. If they cut to the end I guess we're done lol At this moment I am planning to go with the "the inner sanctum is in a pocket dimension" theory. It seems the cleanest and most believable given the storyline already revealed to the players.
Ok, they now get to each, individually, and without aid from one another describe where they are going. Using the "Ok you went 10 feet this round and you find dirt" is a great way to describe their progress. Very very very soon the PCs will be completely separated. They only have 15 minutes to find a room, any room, or they die.
Since earth elementals are not listed as having any other sort of visual sense other than darkvision, and the spell elemental body gives you darkvision, I ruled that the pc's could see well enough to get around. I know its stupid. I know it doesn't make sense, but then how do elementals know where to go?
The sorcerer is the first to find a room! He pops out of the wall into a room with a 40' ceiling, falling to the floor for 3d6 damage (rolled d4 randomly to see where he popped out).
As someone else said, I would probably say that as soon as they start to exit earth they could stop and poke their heads out to look around. If its a room with lots of nasty critters they sink back into the ground. If its clear, they can continue (or lower themselves within the wall to floor level).
Surprise round! Roll initiative against the two Golems. No, your party is not here to help you. Ok you run away. There is a trap at that door, another 3d6 damage plus a FORT save for poison. You only 16 Hit Points left? Darn, better hope the cleric chose a route to get to this very spot. Good luck dude. Ummm you have any other character you wanna work on while I take a few minutes with the Druid?
Again, as someone else said, why not just step back into the wall? or, not even step into the room? Look in, see nasties, and hang back waiting for the others (who are only 10' behind you anyway since everyone has darkvision).
Unless elementals have tremor sense (or some other sense) and the spell elemental body does not give that sense to the pc's I see no reason to say that the pcs can not move around as easily as an elemental.
I think you may be confused...
Text of Polymorph:
** spoiler omitted **
Text of Elemental Body 1:
** spoiler omitted **
I must say that i didn't notice Polymorph was enhanced this way in Pathfinder RPG.
As a matter of fact i was talking about the PHB version (i didn't even notice the thread was in Pathfinder category). My bad.So i stand corrected about the Pathfinder effect.
This being said, although some of the enhancements of the spell are great, i think i would rule out some others, such as the earthglide, which is in my opinion too powerful for this spell and a cause of trouble, as illustrated by this topic. But that's personal.
...I think I would allow each PC to make an Intelligence (15) check, or Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (10) check. Any that succeed receive an explanation of just how this plan requires the GM to run it in order to replicate this plan....
Again, all of that assumes they can not see where they are going. If that is the case how do elementals know where to go? If you say elementals have some other sense then maybe the spell elemental body also gives that sense? If it doesn't then it kind of makes earthglide almost useless.
I think I am going to tweak elementals to say that earthglide does not work on "worked" stone, i.e. stone that is cut and or shaped by intelligent hands. However, then that kind of makes elementals suck. Perhaps leave the standard earthglide ability as-is but say that the elemental body spell gives a more limited earthglide? I dunno. Maybe just say that you can't polymorph into an elemental? Seems easier...
I dunno. Maybe just say that you can't polymorph into an elemental? Seems easier...
That, however, takes out the whole range of elemental body spells + one of the key abilities of the druid.
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Another solution is Incorporeal Undead. Lot's of them. Incorporeal's can move through the earth with as much ease as the PC's would be able to. They would not have to deal with any special defenses the Earth Elemental provides. They would probably be as fast, if not faster than PC's they would know their way around and they are cheap and easy. You could have dozen's of them for a 15th level party and slowly turn them into, oh I don't know, 4th level Earth elemental's...;)
Good luck to you though. It is always a bummer when a clever PC trick spoils your fun. I agree just arbitrarily shutting them down is never a good answer. The duration answer is important to I think. Minute per level, even at high level, doesn't leave you a lot of time to do or move. Let them try to skip to the final chamber, have it moved to the other plane and let them spend all their Duration looking for that cool room they know is here somewhere...
I dunno. Maybe just say that you can't polymorph into an elemental? Seems easier...That, however, takes out the whole range of elemental body spells + one of the key abilities of the druid.
Yeah, probably easier to just do something about earthglide and "worked" stone or something.
This requires some thinking.