I've got a minor issue in my Second Darkness group that I'm not entirely sure how to smooth over. We've just finished Children of the Void, and one of the players has become way too in love with running the Gold Goblin and is intent on becoming the newest crimelord in Riddleport, now that Zincher is deceased.
He is really not going to take well to the entire rest of the adventure path having absolutely nothing to do with Riddleport. Anyone else faced this problem? What did you do about it?
I think I would actually talk to the player about this. Let him know (with out any other spoilers) that the events of the story are likely to sweep the party away from Riddleport and ask him if his character would be willing to go (there IS a pretty good incentive).
If he is, then it could be a really good RP point for his character as he is torn between his dreams and stopping what is to come (if that happens his dreams are for naught anyway).
If, on the other hand, he doesn't think that would work for his character, then I would start working with him on a replacement. There is nothing wrong with playing a character who won't leave Riddleport and will be having more adventures there, it just isn't the story that is being told in Second Darkness.
All that said, if the party as a whole would not want to leave, then forcing them to do so is just railroading and you should instead develop more story on a completely different arc to occur in Riddleport. (I know, not as easy to do).
Sean Mahoney
My players are kind of in the same boat. They just paid a lot of money to fix the Gold Goblin from damage sustained from the tsunami. They definitely have got it into their system to become major players in Riddleport.
What I've done to help motivate the players is to maneuver the Cyphermages to be their rivals. So far, anytime they learn the Cyphermages are looking into something, they try to get to it first.
My players are just getting into the Children of the Void. I'm going to do my best to keep Samaritha alive and have her learn as much as she can about the Drow plot. Then she'll tell everything to her superiors in the Order of the Cyphers in order to try to move up in the organization. I may also even have the Cyphermages send a group to Celwynvian ahead of my players. Knowing my players, that will make them want to go there just to stop the Cyphermages.
(Note: Samaritha has a different role in my campaign. She is the sister of the party's wizard and they are rivals, always trying to "one-up" the other.)
But in the end, I plan to give my players what they want. After the last book in the Second Darkness path, I'm going to lead the players back to Riddleport. The city will be in turmoil. The Overlord will be in the process of being overthrown by Elias Tammerhawk. There will be all sorts of intrigue with the crimelords vying for the position. The climax of this will be the Cyphermages trying to open the Cyphergate, which will inadvertanly threaten to destroy Riddleport. I suspect my players will stop this from happening, have a final battle with the Cyphermages, and leave the Order in ruins. Then I'll end the game with my players as the new leaders of Riddleport, if they play their cards right and keep involving themselves in crimelord politics, like they have been doing.
I know this is kind of specific to my campaign, but maybe some of it will give you some ideas.
I've got a minor issue in my Second Darkness group that I'm not entirely sure how to smooth over. We've just finished Children of the Void, and one of the players has become way too in love with running the Gold Goblin and is intent on becoming the newest crimelord in Riddleport, now that Zincher is deceased.
He is really not going to take well to the entire rest of the adventure path having absolutely nothing to do with Riddleport. Anyone else faced this problem? What did you do about it?
I was getting worried about this aspect of the adventure as well. My players were very into running the gambling hall. Hiring entertainers, outfitting the body guards with better armor and weapons.Once into the rest of the story line however they got into that as well. I believe the story line is strong enough to peak your players interests and soon they will forget about the Gold Goblin, especially towards the end of " Armageddon Echo".
I think the way this adventure path starts out, allowing a group to really get into the city, is a little bit of a design flaw. Not a flaw that can't be overcome, but a flaw nonetheless.
That said, the would-be crime boss is acting like a tactless, unsubtle borderline psychopath who has just threatened the lives of the party's ranger and his npc girlfriend. He apparently isn't aware that a 6th level rogue is outmatched in a straight-on one-on-one fight by a 6th level ranger. I'm expecting the problem to sort itself out at the beginning of the next game session.
I think the way this adventure path starts out, allowing a group to really get into the city, is a little bit of a design flaw. Not a flaw that can't be overcome, but a flaw nonetheless.
It seems to me this could be a great strength - as long as you can persuade your wannabe crime boss that something BAD is about to happen to his potential fiefdom and that nobody else is going to stop it. Won't he have all the incentive in the world?
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I play a fighter that now owns one fifth of the Golden Goblin. Avery owns 2/5 and Lil owns 2/5 as well. I took ranks in Profession Innkeeper but the DM informed me that there's no real money/income involved in owning the Goblin (especially a partial ownership such as my character's) so at this point it is just an RP brag right I guess (i.e. "hey, I own 1/5 of the Goblin! i'm a glorified tenant!") All this ownership has brought so far is that my character must pay for one fifth of the tsunami damages (the DM tells me this amounts to 400gp)
The way the AP was involving the players in depth with the city, I thought my choice of taking Profession Innkeeper would have paid off. When Saul was in charge, I was actually defending his honor in his absence, saying how good a boss he was, etc. My character was really looking forward to get involved with the Goblin, and when I saw this was the way the campaign was shaping (running errands for Saul; eliminating rival gangs; etc.) I must say that I really enjoyed this aspect of the game. When Saul's treachery became evident, my character's loyalty became ambition at the glimmer of hope to fully own the Goblin. Other characters did not share this desire, and sold their share of the Goblin to Avery and Lil, but I'm still grateful that my character owns the joint partially.
From what I hear on this thread, however, and by the fact that all AP chapter covers show a drow elf... my guess is that this city campaign style will not last long, I guess... I wish there was a built-in formula in the AP that rewards ownership of the Golden Goblin (even in the owner's absence, while he's out adventuring); perhaps something that accounts for ranks taken in Craft or Profession skills (the typically "useless" RP skills; i.e. at least you can use diplomacy/intimidate in non-RP situations... but craft/profession... seems bloody useless - see other threat on Craft for my thoughts on that)
I play a fighter that now owns one fifth of the Golden Goblin. Avery owns 2/5 and Lil owns 2/5 as well. I took ranks in Profession Innkeeper but the DM informed me that there's no real money/income involved in owning the Goblin (especially a partial ownership such as my character's) so at this point it is just an RP brag right I guess (i.e. "hey, I own 1/5 of the Goblin! i'm a glorified tenant!") All this ownership has brought so far is that my character must pay for one fifth of the tsunami damages (the DM tells me this amounts to 400gp)
The way the AP was involving the players in depth with the city, I thought my choice of taking Profession Innkeeper would have paid off. When Saul was in charge, I was actually defending his honor in his absence, saying how good a boss he was, etc. My character was really looking forward to get involved with the Goblin, and when I saw this was the way the campaign was shaping (running errands for Saul; eliminating rival gangs; etc.) I must say that I really enjoyed this aspect of the game. When Saul's treachery became evident, my character's loyalty became ambition at the glimmer of hope to fully own the Goblin. Other characters did not share this desire, and sold their share of the Goblin to Avery and Lil, but I'm still grateful that my character owns the joint partially.
From what I hear on this thread, however, and by the fact that all AP chapter covers show a drow elf... my guess is that this city campaign style will not last long, I guess... I wish there was a built-in formula in the AP that rewards ownership of the Golden Goblin (even in the owner's absence, while he's out adventuring); perhaps something that accounts for ranks taken in Craft or Profession skills (the typically "useless" RP skills; i.e. at least you can use diplomacy/intimidate in non-RP situations... but craft/profession... seems bloody useless - see other threat on Craft for my thoughts on that)
This whole approach to the Goblin sounds great. I would suggest that part of using the Profession would be hiring trustworthy help in case you need to leave the Goblin for a bit. In which case you should earn something even if you are away. I imagine if you talk to your DM about it he/she would work with you.
Best.
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One way to do this is via the "Affiliation" rules from the PHB II.
We have had good success with them in my Savage Tide game, and are touching on them in my current Curse of the Crimson Throne game.
Basically, the Goblin becomes a "Business" affiliation, and you as DM can choose to ignore the "must have Leadership to start an affiliation" clause, or work the feat into the wannabe ganglord's character build. Then, while the group is out and about doing things, the inn is offstage, but represented in simplified terms by the characters affiliation score.
He can then work to increase the business's status by going on little errand-adventures (strongarm work, recruiting drives, elimination of competition, etc) with the party, in between the written adventure path mod's. This is a VERY good and easy way to get them up to speed if short on XP or gold, or conversely as a resource drain if they start accruing lots of extra gp.
When and if the character/party leave Riddleport, any "how's the goblin doing" questions, or times they may want to utilize the resource, you can call for an affiliation check of the appropriate type; this easily resolves the issue and takes a modicum of time at the table. My group is all for the minutiae of DnD-Sim City Style, so your mileage may vary.
-t
You might think about running the Freeport modules--they fit into Riddleport quite well--rather than continuing immediately with the AP. It's a shame, if the PCs are really clicking with Riddleport, to drag them away. (If it's only one player, sure, but if the whole group is getting into the Gold Goblin arc, the rest of the AP may not be a good choice right away.)
One of the reasons we chose to do Second Darkness "backwards" (with the PCs as committed agents of the Winter Council from the start) is that I thought this would probably happen with my player as well. I think Shadow in the Sky is, on its own, a good module, but it doesn't lead into the rest of the AP (past Children of the Void) in a natural way.
The Winter Council agents never committed to the Gold Goblin at all, of course, but that was okay. They did hook up nicely with Samaritha.
If you were going to do Freeport, there might be some way to replace or link up the lighthouse plot in Freeport with the starfall plot in Second Darkness.
Mary
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Thanks for the suggestions from everybody here. In the end, I think it is best to roll with the DM's feelings on this. I get the feeling my DM wants to keep things like inn ownership within the realm of roleplaying, and I'm fine with that. To introduce needless game mechanics, if it does not align with the campaign, only obstructs storytelling and game flow.
So reason one, as above, is "DM knows best, and go with the DM on things you can't control"
Reason two is that I've used affiliations and other features like business ownership (DMG2) in the past, and while the idea looked cool and fresh initially, it got old real fast and we ultimately dropped these concepts like old fish.
I think "Master of the Trunk" did it (one of the affiliation titles our wood elf ranger PC got when he got "promoted"... people made so many jokes about it that we sort of laughed the whole affiliation concept away within a few games' time... then the rest of the DMG2/PHB2 3.5 WotC bullcrap soon followed...)
I think "Master of the Trunk" did it (one of the affiliation titles our wood elf ranger PC got when he got "promoted"... people made so many jokes about it that we sort of laughed the whole affiliation concept away within a few games' time... then the rest of the DMG2/PHB2 3.5 WotC bullcrap soon followed...)
I have to admit that "Master of the Trunk" sounds pretty silly. What's one step up from that -- "Log Lord"?
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I play a fighter that now owns one fifth of the Golden Goblin. Avery owns 2/5 and Lil owns 2/5 as well. I took ranks in Profession Innkeeper but the DM informed me that there's no real money/income involved in owning the Goblin (especially a partial ownership such as my character's) so at this point it is just an RP brag right I guess (i.e. "hey, I own 1/5 of the Goblin! i'm a glorified tenant!") All this ownership has brought so far is that my character must pay for one fifth of the tsunami damages (the DM tells me this amounts to 400gp)
To defend my honour, what I said was that if his character wanted to stop adventuring and run the place then his character could make 1/5 of the reasonable profits of a small time gambling establishment, but if his character wanted to continue adventuring then his character's share would be diminished as his character would only be able to assist the inn keeping profitability roll, and not actually make the roll (since his character won't be the one actually running the inn just helping out.)
The AP sets out the rules for the cost operating costs of the place, and making money. Sure a single owner can make a good investment in the place, but that investment income would pale in comparison to actual adventuring income. Its just economics, risk vs reward and all.