|
Hello again, its your friendly Vamp!
Question?
How do you decide mass combat between say 500 combatants or more?
As my Charachter is a High level Wizard with great Charisma I have many retainers and Hench persons.... not to mention the many slaves I have turned into Skeletal Warriors, Ghasts, and Ghouls.. and some new Warrior Wights... I know not to scary for High level.
But the DM has turned one of my towns against me and started to revolt, I am LE and I tried to maintain this rising from to much bloodshed as I get coin from them, however they had hired or somehow got the attention of many churches and had thrown many adventuring parties my way.. all were dispatched or turned into something... sinsiter :) and know the nearest City has mustered about 500 troops heading my way with another adventuring party...
So how or what is the best way to conduct mass combat?
Thanks for your input.
Vampress
Mass combat is not somthing that is handled well in D'n'D, as the main premense was that players would control a small party.
Given the sheer difference in power between high and low level characters, my advice might be to let the high level characters decide the fight. It's all well and good marching an army of 10,000 to face an army of about 500, but if those 500 hundread just happen to be epic characters I'll put my money on them.
There are two basic ways to handle this:
Story Based:
The fight is really played out between your character and the adventuring party. The results of that will determine the outcome of the overall battle.
Example: Assuming you have about 100ish troops under your command, and the opposing adventuring party is about 5 characters, then statistically a fight between your character and the adventuring party will roughly equal your troops versus the enemy troops. (Not accurate in any way, but quick, easy, and "dirty.")
So, if you mop the floor with the adventuring party, your troops will be victorious with very few losses. If you have to flee, then most - if not all - of your troops are destroyed. With the likely result being somewhere in between.
Unit Battles:
This is only good if you, your GM, and/or group like "minis" gaming.
In short, you group your lower level troops into "units" (sounds like 10 characters per unit is a good number), and the special characters get to be individuals.
The Miniatures Handbook has rules for this, but I don't know if it is a source available to your group. (And I wouldn't recommend it for just that, especially for this one fight.)
As an off the cuff suggestion, I'd recommend the story based method.
And if your group really wants to make this war the setting of a few sessions, Heroes of Battle might be helpful, but again I wouldn't recommend it simply for this single use.
|
|
Thank you soo much for the info.. I talked to the DM earlier today, as we are preparing for this weekend.. and you are right on.. it will be story based..
I will have to defend most likely against a couple of infiltrating attacks by adventures within my castle...
The cool thing is I have nasty suprises where I can ambush them.. He also said I can use some of my pets...
So basicaly if I win, I destroy the forces attacking me. Sort of a weird Scenerio but he wants me to know what its like to be on the recieving end..lol
Our Party should do well... eek I hope.. :)
Thanks for the posts!
I would love to be a "fly on the wall" watching this battle taking place.
|
is this you and your party versus another party and some army-guys?
i say because it almost sounds as a solo campaign, or possibly the rest of the group is playing against your high-level wizard.
does sound very interesting, and Heroes of Battle is high on my list of "secondary" books. ones that will fill out some small niche of the game world, but when you have them for that one critical game, and it goes smoothly, you'll talk about that fight for years. the same goes for underwater combat, ship-to-ship combat, that kind of thing.
now, as a high level wizard, with foreknowledge of an enemy assault, and at least 1 or 2 days before they get there, those 500 or so enemies should be nothing but fodder. possibly quite literally.
you mention creating undead, so you can sneak into the enemy camp, create a shadow, wraith, spectre, vampire, or the like, and set it into the enemy fighters. you then have an army of commanded undead (you control the 1st one, and the rest follow his commands). no more army harrassing you, and the enemy Adventuring Party coming your way has to deal with large amounts of incorporeal, Str and Con draining undead.
sounds like a very cool battle, and would like to hear how it transpired.
-t
|
|
Well basically it is a solo campaign that we have had for about 3 years. but we also have 4 other friends that we get together with at least once per month.
SO if you want to know the scoop.. here it is.
For the last 3 months my Character Veronica "The Baroness of Death" had been campaigning against some unruly monsters in a Mountain pass only about a 2 days ride from my Castle home.. I have my personal bodyguard which consists of 2 9th Level Blackguard Captains, the other reamains at the castle, about 10 6th level Mercanary Fighters, 2 Clerics of Shar, and 1 Ranger, one of the Blackguards is a Druegar dwarf which helps when in subteranean areas and Mountainous areas.
Anyways I come back and am about to take a vacation of sorts and gather up whats going on in my small prefecture, I have to pay the King of the Region as he knows of my secret.. that I am acutally a Vampire. Anyways one of the towns decided not to pay their taxes. (DM throws in weird political curveballs..in which I would like to rack his..Bls LOL Anyways I try to negotiate using my Diplomatic skills which first work, and then a week later the King gets drunk and says he is having an affair with the Baroness who is a Vampire... The King gets assassinated two days later, and the new Regent Cousin some Duke.. declares war against me.. I send in troops to quell the riots in one of my 3 towns, and tell then tell them I will reduce taxes if they go back to work..
My scouts, (5 7th Rouges) have gathered intell on 500+ troops and at least 2 adventuring parties heading my way.
So know I plan to allow the Adventuring parties within my castle walls, The DM has allowed me to play the part of my Higher up Henchlings as they are professionals and would know what to do, there are many magical ALArms, and I have set up traps in certain areas. I have my Humans guarding the upper part with Worgs, and a couple of Undead Ogres as some meat shields. The real bad stuff is below.. Black puddings, Geletounous cubes that eat all the waste of my castle.. its real efficiant. Plus I will lose Undead that I have been building up against the army but that is irelevant as the Battle will eventually is my guess come to a certain part of my castle where I and a couple of Blackguards, Cleric, and a couple Rogues will await.. with my 2 Undead DIRE TIgers.
Jeesh!
I think I may start playing a low level charachter again.. LOL to much politics.. OR maybe I will just take over the entire Region.. maybe..:)
|
If you want mass combat to be story based (which I too feel is the way to go) but the DM still wants some random element of surrounding conflicts, there is a system for handling that.
If, somehow, some way, someone you know owns the d20 7th Sea campaign book by AEG, there is a little 4-5 page section in there that has handled any size mass combat situation I've needed to resolve. It takes into acount a few numbers but otherwise elegantly allows fast and easy resoloution of secondary and tertiary battles raging around the PCs.
-DM Jeff
You know, it's old and rusty and all of that... but the old War Machine system from D&D BECMI (it was in the Companion - the green Box - or in the Rules Cyclopedia , Chapter 9 - aah, what old good memories !...) was rather easy, quick and functional.
Perhaps this is something that Paizo could revive again ;) ? As far as I know, it was not present in any other D&D edition, but it was fun.
Just my 2c.
Some quick and dirty mass combat rules:
Have squads/units/companies.
The rules are similar to swarm rules:
You group together creatures of the same "type" (I highly suggest using uniform stats for stuff like "average human soldier")
I'll refer to the type of creature/ character the unit is composed of as "base creature"
Keep the base creatures' stats, except:
Rules for fights unit against unit
HP: Add together all the HP, i.e. base creature's HP X number of creatures.
Attacks: combine the attacks of all base creatures. So you only make one attack for them all together (or more if the base creatures themselves would have more attacks)
Damage: Base creature's damage X number of creatures. You might want to use average damage, or partial average damage (if you don't want to do without rolling the dice altogether)
Space: A unit occupies a square equal to (number of squares a base creature occupies) X number of creatures in unit.
If you want a square, use the square root of the number of squares and round (up or down) to the nearest number. 10 medium size creatures would occupy 10 squares. The square root of 10 is just above 3.1, so you round down to 3. The unit will occupy 3x3 squares.
The rounding takes into account that they'll be packed a little tighter than in a skirmish between a handful of adventurers on either side (and also makes things easier)
Consider allowing other units, or individuals, to occupy squares that are also occpupied by the unit. It's not one cohesive creature, after all.
Initiative/Taking turns:
A battlefield's a big and chaotic place. Everything happens at once.
Thus, I suggest resolving everyone's actions before applying any effects. That means that if there's two units of soldiers attacking each other, they will both get to do their attacks, even if one would wipe out the other. After the round, that round is wiped out, however.
Effects of damage:
Now that's an important part: The rules assume they all become one creature in effect. But they're still individuals and some will die before others. Thus, assume that whenever you deal twice as much damage as the base creature has, another member of the unit falls. This means that roughly half of them dies early. If you want to avoid half the unit falling at once, reduce the effective number of critters by one for each HP once you get to the last X hp, where X is the number of remaining critters.
Keep track of individual stats for all those values you add together. I.e. Human Fighter Unit (10X human fighter 1) HP 80 (8 per unit) and so on.
If that's too much hassle, assume that they get weaker whenever they hit a quarter mark (Full power at first, 3/4 power at 3/4 strength, 1/2 power at 1/2 strength)
Area Effects:
You can go two ways here: you figure how many members of the unit would be effected (count the squares you hit and double that number) and multiply damage by that amount, or you can assume that some will be shielded by others, or have better luck, or something like that. Thus, you just deal double damage to units with area effects.
This also takes into account that the unit doesn't really maintain the square formation you want to use to make things easier.
Special considerations when units attack individuals[b]
Attacks/damage: Assume that for every square the unit occupies that is adjacent to the individual, 2 members can attack, and calculate damage accordingly.
Example:
[b]Sample Critter, Elf warrior
Elf, 1st-Level Warrior
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: 1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +3 studded leather, +1 light shield), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: 1/2
Attack: Longsword +2 melee (1d8+1/19-20) or longbow +3 ranged (1d8/×3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will -1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
[b]Unit of 10 Elf warriors[b]
Unit of 10 X elf warrior 1
Loss track: 32 | 24 | 16 | 8; Heavy Losses 5
HD: 1 (for effects that affect creatures of a certain HD)
HP: 40 HP (4 hp each)
Speed: 30 ft
AC: 15, T11, FF14
Attack: Longsword +2 melee (5,5 per member; 55)
Attack: Longbow +3 ranged (4,5 per member; 45)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/5 ft (3 squares, 1 square). Space 10ft (2 squares) at 6 members, Space 5ft (1 square) at 2.
Now, let's throw a fireball at them. It's a small, 5d6 fireball for 17 damage. Let's assume they make the save. That means the damage becomes 17 *2 (simplified rules) /2 (successful save) for 17 points.
[b]Unit of 10 Elf warriors[b]
Unit of 10 X elf warrior 1; 8 remaining
Loss track: 16 | 8; Heavy Losses 5
HD: 1 (for effects that affect creatures of a certain HD)
HP: 23 HP (4 hp each)
Speed: 30 ft
AC: 15, T11, FF14
Attack: Longsword +2 melee (5,5 per member; 44)
Attack: Longbow +3 ranged (4,5 per member; 36)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/5 ft (3 squares, 1 square). Space 10ft (2 squares) at 6 members, Space 5ft (1 square) at 2.
Now, they encounter a small goblin unit. The goblins are all killed, but they manage to deal 15 points of damage
[b]Unit of 10 Elf warriors[b]
Unit of 10 X elf warrior 1; 6 remaining
Loss track: Heavy Losses 5
HD: 1 (for effects that affect creatures of a certain HD)
HP: 8 HP (4 hp each)
Speed: 30 ft
AC: 15, T11, FF14
Attack: Longsword +2 melee (5,5 per member; 33)
Attack: Longbow +3 ranged (4,5 per member; 27)
Space/Reach: Space 10ft (2 squares), Space 5ft (1 square) at 2.
Note that heavy losses (i.e. one more loss for every HP) starts at 5, that means they'll lose their next member when they drop to 5, another at 4,3,2,1, and 0.
This could probably use some tuning (or even a lot of tuning), but it's a start if you want to pit your armies against each other.
There are rules for creating a "mob" in DMG 2, that might work for you -- turns it into that actions of a few "creatures" instead of a lot of creatures.
|
|
Wow.. Alot of info.. whew!
Well the time is drawing near... Friday Night!
MY personal Party consists of
2 Black Guard Bodyguards 10th Level.(Vampires)
1 Cleric Of Shar 12th Level
1 Rogue/Sorcerer 6th/7th Level
1 Ranger TW fighting style 9th Level
Myself "grins" 4th Rogue/18th Level Wizard
2 Pets Undead Dire Tigers.. Black and grey.. they are soo pretty!
Anyways that is the group I have to combat the two adventuring parties.
|
I agree with the swarm rules. You make a group fight cohesively like a large monster. You can represent them with minis and have so many die per so many lost hit points.
Basically, for Star Wars Saga RPG Clone Wars, they decided to use that mechainic.
Straight fighting is boring for the most part, but giving the PCs objectives (like taking out those 5 catapults) gives the PCs a heroic mission that is easy to understand. Some battles do hinge on pivotal points that a D&D story could tell well.
|
|
I would love to be a "fly on the wall" watching this battle taking place.
Well as the battle raged between Good and the reign of my small fragile Kingdom this is what transpired.
As the Adventuring parties tripped several "ALarm" traps and other nasty things, I sent my forces to deal with the troops heading my way.
"Movie image here.. LOL"
They had about 500-600 troops heading my way.. they had to bypass a forest and a bridge.. a very long "Sleepy Hallow bridge" :) So the battle that raged in the woods was their troops vs my 75 Wights, 20 Worgs, 200 Zombie and Skeletal Warriors lead by 4 Mages of 5th level and 3 Clerics of 6th Level, backed my Reserves of 250 Mercanary Soldiers ranging mostly 1st-2nd level. Misc Srgts and Lt.. and 2 Captains of 6th. These forces guarded the approach to my Castle. The 2nd day they were attacked by Mercenary troops, Ballista, and catapult reigning fire and death. :)
Ok as far as the juicy stuff, the 1st Adventuring party had 2 9th Rogue,1 10th Cleric, 1 13th Wizard and 2 12th Fighters 1 dwarf, 1 Elf. They were all killed as they entred the main Courtyard. They were dispatched by myself, 4 BlackGuards 8F/4BG 1 Cleric 12th, 2 Monk Assassins 10/4 I think we just had more firepower.. Magic raged through the open courtyard,sparks from the swords, lighting, fire, sonic attacks.. magic missles, and other hiddious spells were cast.
2nd day.. I had to sleep and needed to retreat to my coffin... 2 of my BlackGuards were killed in the defensive attack against the 2nd Adventuring party that consisted of a 12th Wizard, 4 10th Fighters, 2 9th Rouges, 2 11th Clerics.
I made it to my Coffin, and after a brief rest arose to destroy the 2nd adventuring party, calling for assistance from the rest of my party, in gaseous form I traversed the many secret corridors of my Castle collecting my party for the final assault in the Main Hall.
Vs the above Party I had my 2 undead/Vampiric Dire Tigers, 2 BlackGuards 8F/4BG, 2 Clerics 12,10 2 Monk Assassins 10/4 Myself 4th Rogue 18th Wizard.
The battle was fierce.. getting the Monks to take out their spellcasters was crucial.. I more or less flew to the air to get out of reach of Melee, and proceeded to take out their muscle.. the fighters while my Monks, and Blackguards delt with the Spellcasting Clerics and Wizard. Tough battle.. battle of wits for the Mages.. Whew.
Thanks Kae Yoss.
How do you cope with mob creatures having Spell resistance? Roll once for all? Or measure the effectiveness of area spells by the success of the caster level check like "The difference between the average spell resistance of the mob and your caster level check determines the caster level of your spell. The spell functions even if this value is lower than the minimum required caster level to cast the spell"
Thanks Kae Yoss.
How do you cope with mob creatures having Spell resistance? Roll once for all?
Since I made the whole thing up as I wrote it, I haven't thought about it. But that seems the easiest way, so I'd go with that.
The other way can work, too. In fact, something like that might work for spell resistance in general. That or getting rid of it in favour of a bonus to saves (and maybe "spell evasion")
Malhavoc has a mass combat d20 supplement, Cry Havoc. I hear it is good.
Yep. Parts of it are really good. For a situation like this, I would segregate SR enemies into units, and roll once per unit.