Hi there, me and my friends are very new players to Pathfinder, in fact to roleplaying games in general. I was wondering if I could have some help deciding whether to go for a pure Draconic Sorcerer (unchangeable as I am already level 3) or a Dragon Disciple. I know Dragon Disciple is less powerful than Sorceror, but I love the idea of it, and I'm looking to be a melee caster. It's also unlikely that we'll get to level 20 before we leave for university, when I'll probably start again. I've read Oterisk's Guide, but it's all a bit over my head. I was hoping someone would be able to clarify some things for me, like how effective a Sorc10/DD10 will be at melee, what spell levels they will reach, if there are better mixes etc. We do have house rules that I can use my claws at all times, and that the breath weapon will scale all the way. Also, we only have the Core Rule Book and Bestiary to work from currently, so suggestions about other books to get are much appreciated. Thanks very much in advance! And sorry for the long post
From a pure optimization standpoint, Sorc10/DD10 isn't very good. Don't let that stop you though!
If you really want to be effective in melee, you want some full bab levels before DD, and have spellcasting be a little more secondary.
I'd recommend 1sorc/4(pal, barb, or fighter)/DD10. Each have advantages and disadvantages.
This builds definitely favors the melee aspect of melee caster. This is because DD does in general with its str bonuses and 3/4 casting. If you want a more casty guy, I'd recommend EK or magus over DD.
Beopere: Yeah I'm more interested in fun than optimization, but obviously I still want my character to be good
Zwordsman: Yeah sorry I haven't got the book with me, I thought I remembered a damage cap but obviously I'm wrong, sorry about that. My dragon type is golden so I do have the cone I believe. We all have pretty high stats as we're going for very tough adventures, and I got very lucky, I'm a human btw, so my stats are:
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 18
Thanks very much to both of you, I'm a complete noob here and really appreciate the help
What is the maximum spell level that a Sorc10/DD10 can cast? This bit of the rulebook confused me slightly
There's a big spectrum between useless and absolute no compromise min-maxing. A full pure sorcerer is as viable as a sorcerer/dragon disciple mix. The first simply focuses more on casting, whereas the second is bigger on melee.
Yeah I understand, I just don't want to find far down the line that my character is far too fragile for melee for example
As Sorc/DD you can have decent AC but never really stellar. I'd make sure to pick up a lot of defensive spells, which in many cases trump AC. I am speaking of Displacement, Mirror Image, False life, Stoneskin, etc.
If you don't want to do a martial dip, I'd recommend sticking primarily with claws/bite than a weapon. If you run into DR problems, that's the time to switch to spells.
If you are going for both melee capability and spell casting (many people call this a gish character), the DD can be fun. But then I wouldn't recommend a sorc 10 / DD 10. I would probably recommend between 1 and 4 levels of barbarian or ranger, then DD then, the rest as sorc.
If you want to be primarily a caster that just has claws as a backup when you can't get away from someone, some extra HP, some natural armor bonus, etc... then just sorc to DD might be just fine (I know someone doing the same thing). Maybe just 1 level of barbarian or ranger.
Note: I agree that DD is a fun concept. But sometimes it can be difficult for people new to the game. Usually I recommend new players to stick with a single class build.
Yeah I already have Shield and Mage armour for the AC increase, and I thought that defensive and utility spells would be very handy. Do the benefits of a pure Draconic Sorcerer completely outweigh being a DD?
I was thinking of going for a few levels of barbarian. but I'm reluctant to lose out on any levels of spellcasting, as I already know I lose out on that front. I want to use my natural weapons as my main melee tactic, so I don't need a dip for proficiency in martial weapons, but the extra bulk would definitely help.
I would like to think I can cope, but if it becomes too difficult then I will stick with a pure class
It depends on what style of play you're going for. A Dragon Disciple emphasizes melee combat, but that's not the only way to play a dragon sorcerer. If you stay pure dragon sorcerer, you're going to be a character that focuses more on the magic. And there are a lot of ways to take that road.
If I did that I would definitely want the Form of the Dragon spells, mainly because I just think they sound like a lot of fun, so would that be another viable way to go?
If you want melee combat to be a significant part of your strategy (not just a backup for when you are trapped), then I would suggest at least 1 level of barbarian for the fast movement (to help get in melee range quickly) and rage to buff str and con once a day. Likely 2 levels of barbarian so you also get a rage power to go with it.
Straight sorcerer will get the spell form of the dragon at 13th level.
Sorcerer/DD will get form of the dragon at the 7th level in the DD prestige class.
One of the kool things about the system is that almost anything can be a viable strategy if you work at it. (I have seen people make successful characters that use only clubs.) Almost the only time I see really significant problems is when someone tries to be good at everything at the same time.
Well, they come with the Dragon bloodline, and to be a DD sorcerer you have to take that bloodline. You also get some Form of the Dragon spell-likes from your DD levels (personally, since you get them on your list as a sorc I´d rather you became a full half-dragon like in 3.5, but that is for your DM to do).
BTW, if you are full sorcerer it is debatable if you want to go for all 10 levels of the PrC - you may decide to do less to lose less caster levels.
Beopere: Yeah I'm more interested in fun than optimization, but obviously I still want my character to be good
Zwordsman: Yeah sorry I haven't got the book with me, I thought I remembered a damage cap but obviously I'm wrong, sorry about that. My dragon type is golden so I do have the cone I believe. We all have pretty high stats as we're going for very tough adventures, and I got very lucky, I'm a human btw, so my stats are:
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 18Thanks very much to both of you, I'm a complete noob here and really appreciate the help
What is the maximum spell level that a Sorc10/DD10 can cast? This bit of the rulebook confused me slightly
Those are some nice stats. Great for a dragon disciple.
A couple things. First off in my home game we houseruled a feat to make draconic claws a permanent thing instead of 3+cha times per day. Mostly because in order to utilize the claws the sorceror has to invest resources he normally wouldnt unlike the other bloodline powers which act like spells or are automatic buffs (like elemental resistences).
You have a great stat line to be a meleeish dragon disciple, and though its not the best way to go about it. I played one with the above mentioned house rule and he worked just fine as a sorc5/dd5. The problem is without the house rule, you need to take some kind of martial class for a level or two (i'd say levels 4 and 5) in order to give you solid combat options. Because you cant always use your claws.
A common choice is paladin because of the overlap with charisma, but obviously that is a strongly themed character type that might not fit you. Barbarian is another good choice, as you get proficiency with martial weapons, rage for at least a few rounds a day, a rage power, and fast movement.
Barb into DD is pretty cool. You are one of the STRONGEST characters in the game. I don't mean like optimized, I mean your str score can get stupid high.
start 18
+x from levels
+4 from rage
+4 from DD
+6 FotD II
add in belts and books and your way up there.
Like 48 Str.
You can get it higher, but that is very nice and directly applicable to raging dragon 6 attacks full attack.
Rawr
Barb into DD is pretty cool. You are one of the STRONGEST characters in the game. I don't mean like optimized, I mean your str score can get stupid high.
start 18
+x from levels
+4 from rage
+4 from DD
+6 FotD IIadd in belts and books and your way up there.
Like 48 Str.
You can get it higher, but that is very nice and directly applicable to raging dragon 6 attacks full attack.
Rawr
I agree, and the theme is pretty darn cool. I cant wait to see what we get with the Blood Rager when they finally release the advanced class guide playtest.
A couple things. First off in my home game we houseruled a feat to make draconic claws a permanent thing instead of 3+cha times per day. Mostly because in order to utilize the claws the sorceror has to invest resources he normally wouldnt unlike the other bloodline powers which act like spells or are automatic buffs (like elemental resistences).
Yeah we've house ruled them so I can use them permanently, it seemed a little underwhelming to only use them a few times per day.
Barb into DD is pretty cool. You are one of the STRONGEST characters in the game. I don't mean like optimized, I mean your str score can get stupid high.
start 18
+x from levels
+4 from rage
+4 from DD
+6 FotD IIadd in belts and books and your way up there.
Like 48 Str.
You can get it higher, but that is very nice and directly applicable to raging dragon 6 attacks full attack.
Rawr
Ok that does sound pretty awesome, I didn't realise you could combine FotD and raging. What would you suggest my level in each class be?
Ok that does sound pretty awesome, I didn't realise you could combine FotD and raging. What would you suggest my level in each class be?
You can certainly rage while in dragon form (no casting while raging tho, always remember, moment of clarity is good for this).
As I said earlier I'd recommend 1 sorc/4barb/10DD, for melee heavy build. Magical knack would be very useful.
Barb level first would be better, for max hp. Have strange dreams at night of your future cantrips and spell choices, and eventually awaken your sorcerer potential.
Get an amulet of might fists, raging (you don't need +1 enhancement first for AoMF). You'll be at plus 2 while you rage. If your campaign centers around a certain enemy you can grab bane as well, and have a +4 +2d6 equivalent for only +2 price.
Once again though, this is a melee oriented character, who can use spells to identify things, protect himself, and enter combat advantageously. You'll be busting skulls with bites and claws, not fireballs.
You can certainly rage while in dragon form (no casting while raging tho, always remember, moment of clarity is good for this).
As I said earlier I'd recommend 1 sorc/4barb/10DD, for melee heavy build. Magical knack would be very useful.
Barb level first would be better, for max hp. Have strange dreams at night of your future cantrips and spell choices, and eventually awaken your sorcerer potential.
Get an amulet of might fists, raging (you don't need +1 enhancement first for AoMF). You'll be at plus 2 while you rage. If your campaign centers around a certain enemy you can grab bane as well, and have a +4 +2d6 equivalent for only +2 price.
Once again though, this is a melee oriented character, who can use spells to identify things, protect himself, and enter combat advantageously. You'll be busting skulls with bites and claws, not fireballs.
Ok, excellent, thank you.This sounds like a very attractive option, and quite a lot of fun to play. I just need to decide whether to go mainly melee or mainly caster, getting my priorities right seems the most important thing.
What's the make up of the rest of the party?
One lvl of Barbarian will suffice, go Invurnerable Rager / Urban Barbarian. Bear in mind though that when you finally have access to high lvl transmutation spells like FoTD and Transformation the barb lvl will not do much, and that the sooner you get there the stronger you will be. With that in mind, a straight Sorcerer 12 / DD 8 can be an excellent build, as long as you are comfortable playing as a primary blaster caster and only enter melee when the battle has already be decided, at least until you get your mentioned high lvl spells.
Are Invulnerable Rager and Urban Barbarian archetypes? I've seen mention of them online, but haven't seen them in the core book, that might be my mistake though. Unfortunately all I've got at the moment is the core book. As you say though if I decide to go for a blaster caster I think I might go Sorc 12/ DD 8
Invuln rager and Urban barb are archetypes. And they would blend very well for any DD build.
I'd also recommend looking at savage barbarian. They get bonuses for not wearing armor, which you won't be. You won't get too many bonuses, being a small dip, but its better than the basic barb.
Mage armor doesn't count as armor in that case FYI.
If you're limited to core, then basic barb is only choice. But that's ok cause they kick ass too.
What's the make up of the rest of the party?
Due to other commitments and activities it's normally only a few of us on each adventure, but in total we've go a Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, Cleric, Druid and a Ranger, so to bring some more balance I should probably got for a caster set
What do I need to get to have access to these archetypes? We've only got the core book at the moment, but we're definitely looking to get more
I played Dragon Disciple and REALLY enjoyed it a great deal. I also went for natural attacking primarily and the incredible strength you can get makes this quite fun.
The most important thing to realize is that the Magical Knack trait is key. It makes the caster level losses barely matter.
Now I know people are tossing Barbarian in there as a great melee option, but also you may want to consider Paladin instead. Smite evil can wreck a bad guy, but also Divine Grace makes your saves decent.
I ended my game as Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Paladin 2.
This was not a fully optimized build, but I was able to solo a CR 20 black dragon without even taking half my HP in damage.
Also I had a great deal of fun with touch spells. Natural attacks can be used to deliver touch spells, which make your Form of the Dragon II full attack routine even deadlier with a bit of Quickened metamagic feat usage (which is a bonus feat for dragon sorcerer's anyway).
google anything followed PFSRD to learn about it, including what book.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---b arbarian-archetypes/savage-barbarian
I believe all the archetypes mentioned were the Advanced Player's Guide
Looks like I'll be getting the Advanced Player's Guide next then. Touch spells using natural attacks sounds great, as does the Magical Knack trait. Once again thanks to everyone who has contributed to this, it's great to know a new player can get this much help form the community
The APG is one of the best pathfinder books out there. I highly recommend it.
Happy to be of help :).
If you REALLY want high strength ...
Human
Crossblooded Sorcerer (Draconic and Orc)
Dragon Disciple adds its level to your sorcerer level to determine bloodline powers but you must have Draconic to qualify.
+2 Str (racial)
+5 levels (level advancement)
+4 Rage (morale bonus)
+4 DD (as level advancement, specifies stacks)
+4 FoTD (size bonus)
+4 mutagen (alchemical bonus)
+4 Orc Bloodline (inherent)
+6 Eldritch Heritage:Abyssal (inherent)
+6 Item (Enhancement)
+5 Book (inherent)
Starting with 18 Str (before racial), you can end up with 62 Str at level 20.
2 Sorcerer
2 Alchemist
2 Barbarian
10 Dragon Disciple
1 Sorcerer
3 Something Else (Eldritch Knight)
Take all the Orc Bloodline powers, Dragon Disiciple gives them all back anyway (except claws, that's what Eldritch heritage is for). Trade your human bonus feat for Focused study (3 skill focuses over time, rather than just wasting one feat). Take Knowledge planes, use magic device and fly in that order.
I'd trade away bombs for sneak attack with the alchemist and pick up the tumor familiar to get a +2 to will save (hedgehog) to offset the will save penalty for crossblooded. You could take Ragechemist is you want to squeeze out another +2 to Str if you want.
Urban Barbarian could be a good choice if you want a focused rage.
You end up with caster level 12 (6th level spells/spell slots) for the sorcerer. Effective sorcerer level of 13 for your powers (enough to get the +4 str from Orc). Effective sorcerer level 18 due to eldritch heritage (or higher if you want another heritage feat).
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Does the Abyssal inherent bonus stack with the book inherent bonus? I thought they were exclusive?
Taloskane, you might want to go here to learn more about DDs.
To get easy access to more PF rule books just visit the PRD--it's free, too.
Ruyan.
Thanks Ruyan, I did take a look at that to start with, but it was a bit over my head before, now I've done a lot more reading I understand it much better. The PRD does look very useful, I'll use it until I buy the books, I prefer to have the hard copy with me, it just feels a lot more enjoyable to me when I have a real book
If you REALLY want high strength ...
Human
Crossblooded Sorcerer (Draconic and Orc)
Dragon Disciple adds its level to your sorcerer level to determine bloodline powers but you must have Draconic to qualify.+2 Str (racial)
+5 levels (level advancement)
+4 Rage (morale bonus)
+4 DD (as level advancement, specifies stacks)
+4 FoTD (size bonus)
+4 mutagen (alchemical bonus)
+4 Orc Bloodline (inherent)
+6 Eldritch Heritage:Abyssal (inherent)
+6 Item (Enhancement)
+5 Book (inherent)Starting with 18 Str (before racial), you can end up with 62 Str at level 20.
2 Sorcerer
2 Alchemist
2 Barbarian
10 Dragon Disciple
1 Sorcerer
3 Something Else (Eldritch Knight)Take all the Orc Bloodline powers, Dragon Disiciple gives them all back anyway (except claws, that's what Eldritch heritage is for). Trade your human bonus feat for Focused study (3 skill focuses over time, rather than just wasting one feat). Take Knowledge planes, use magic device and fly in that order.
I'd trade away bombs for sneak attack with the alchemist and pick up the tumor familiar to get a +2 to will save (hedgehog) to offset the will save penalty for crossblooded. You could take Ragechemist is you want to squeeze out another +2 to Str if you want.
Urban Barbarian could be a good choice if you want a focused rage.
You end up with caster level 12 (6th level spells/spell slots) for the sorcerer. Effective sorcerer level of 13 for your powers (enough to get the +4 str from Orc). Effective sorcerer level 18 due to eldritch heritage (or higher if you want another heritage feat).
...Just wow, that's ridiculous. That would be amazing, I'll definitely have to consider it once I've got the APG
Does the Abyssal inherent bonus stack with the book inherent bonus? I thought they were exclusive?
Eh, you may be right. Well, then subtract 9 from that total. So, we are still at Str 53. I'm sure there are other ways to go higher.
...Just wow, that's ridiculous. That would be amazing, I'll definitely have to consider it once I've got the APG
Crossblooded is from the Ultimate Magic. And Rage Chemist is from Ultimate Combat.
If you REALLY want high strength ...
Don't forget that Form of the Dragon III is a +10 size bonus and that a succubus can grant you a +2 profane bonus.
I remember doing a thought experiments on the highest strength scores here.
I've yet to play it, but I've built up a nice sorcer 3/paladin2/DD the rest build that gets some pretty nice stuff (it's all theoretical, though I've done it's stats for up to level 13). It's strength isnt as silly as some of the other examples, but the high cha combined with divine grace gives you UNGODLY saves. Still, DD is a fun looking prestige class.
Ok, so I'm thinking of going for either a Sorc10/DD8 for a caster or dipping into either paladin, ranger or barbarian for a more melee class. Which of those would let me optimise my natural weapons?
Ranger has natural weapon style in the APG
Ranger Natural Weapon Style
That is probably the one I would recommend.
Ok, so I've got the build for melee pretty down then, though is ranger still worth it as I've already got permanent class through house rules? And earlier I meant sorc12/DD8 for a caster. What spell levels would I miss out on using that build?
In my opinion ranger is not right for you, but I am no expert. It's a lot more focused on melee combat with no real synergy with your casting. You can always take those same feats if you desire without being a ranger.
I feel like Paladin synergies with the casting stats nicely because of the focus on Charisma, and Barbarian not only is good for natural attacking, but rage/pounce is a good mix for a lengthy full attack (Form of the Dragon) with the additional strength being great for your bite.
Optimizing natural attacks can be tricky, but the most interesting thing is that Dragon Disciple is already one of the best ways to optimize natural attacks.
You get a 1d6 claw and a bite that uses 1 1/2 strength modifier as a primary natural attack. There's ways to make these better, but I think you'll get more out of optimizing your generic prowess in combat (Smite, Rage) than focusing entirely on your natural attacks which are already pretty good.
Also, if you take Magical Knack, a Sorcerer 12/Dragon Disciple 8 will be at a caster level 20 able to cast 9th level spells as spells per day of an 18th level Sorcerer.
In my opinion ranger is not right for you, but I am no expert. It's a lot more focused on melee combat with no real synergy with your casting. You can always take those same feats if you desire without being a ranger.
I feel like Paladin synergies with the casting stats nicely because of the focus on Charisma, and Barbarian not only is good for natural attacking, but rage/pounce is a good mix for a lengthy full attack (Form of the Dragon) with the additional strength being great for your bite.
Optimizing natural attacks can be tricky, but the most interesting thing is that Dragon Disciple is already one of the best ways to optimize natural attacks.
You get a 1d6 claw and a bite that uses 1 1/2 strength modifier as a primary natural attack. There's ways to make these better, but I think you'll get more out of optimizing your generic prowess in combat (Smite, Rage) than focusing entirely on your natural attacks which are already pretty good.
Also, if you take Magical Knack, a Sorcerer 12/Dragon Disciple 8 will be at a caster level 20 able to cast 9th level spells as spells per day of an 18th level Sorcerer.
Ok, so for a more focussed melee class go for ranger, but if I want more versatility and casting synergy I go for paladin.
And thank you, that last bit is exactly what I wanted to know. Out of curiosity, what would I be able to cast as a sorc10/DD10?
Out of curiosity, what would I be able to cast as a sorc10/DD10?
10 caster levels from sorc, 7 from DD. Spells known as 17th level sorcerer. That means 8th level spells. With magical knack you can have a caster level of 19, but still limited to 8th level spells. :(
So I'm only losing out on one spell level? That's not as bad as I originally thought, definitely a negative but not as much. For optimisation for a DD caster sorc12/DD8 seems better still, but you do miss out on the final two levels of DD.
So a Sorc12/DD8/MoMSmonk1 is ideal?
Ah, haha, sorry about that, genuinely thought I'd put DD7 :P