One of my PCs is a Favored Soul of Boccob. But he's been stating that he's only paying lip service to him. I find this to be a cop out and unrealistic. Would a deity allow you to be powered up by their divine energy and yet be insincere?
I say NO. Am I being unfair? Should this character be an Ur-priest or something else? I find that obtaining divine magic without worshipping and being faithful to a god (or gods) to be a cop out.
Educate me. Am I being unreasonable here?
In Eberron, I'd allow it, but otherwise, probably not.
But then again, Boccob is "The Uncaring", so maybe he takes more of a "hands-off" approach.
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I wouldn't allow it. Seems to me, at some precipitous moment the god would turn away from his pretender cleric, probably with sad consequences for the cleric (like in the middle of a hoard of undead). On the other hand, several pantheons have trickster gods who like having their clerics pretend to play at being the cleric of another deity. I woul talk to the player, tell him that his character is in danger of losing his divine powers and make an offer for an alternative god.
I wouldn't allow it. Seems to me, at some precipitous moment the god would turn away from his pretender cleric, probably with sad consequences for the cleric (like in the middle of a hoard of undead). On the other hand, several pantheons have trickster gods who like having their clerics pretend to play at being the cleric of another deity. I woul talk to the player, tell him that his character is in danger of losing his divine powers and make an offer for an alternative god.
We are just beginning the campaign (Greyhawk based), perhaps I should offer him to be a Cleric of Olidammara, god of rogues? This would give him his pretense of worshipping Boccob... Have there been any in-dept articles on Olidammara published?
Hmmm. I have just read the entry for Olidammara in the LG Deities 2.0 PDF, and found that the match wasn't quite right. This character doesn't drink wine. So I've found Zagyg to be more my liking, though not a perfect match.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I think it depends on why the character is a favored soul...this is one of those cases where the PC talked to you about his concept while he was making the PC. I don't have my books handy so let me ask another question...Do favored souls have a section in the class write up that talks about ex-favored souls? If yes then you can pull the powers if not I'd say stop allowing him to advance as a favored soul until he atones.
Some other considerations:
- If the character is some sort of divine scion blood of an angel or some such then maybe letting him keep the powers would be okay.
- If he is a chosen of Boccob then you are well within your rights to at least disallow further advancement.
- Maybe the Deity has some other plan for the character. Talk to the player and see if perhaps he is looking for (or is willing to play) a story of personal growth where he becomes worthy of the mantle bestowed upon him.
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One of my PCs is a Favored Soul of Boccob. But he's been stating that he's only paying lip service to him. I find this to be a cop out and unrealistic. Would a deity allow you to be powered up by their divine energy and yet be insincere?
I say NO. Am I being unfair? Should this character be an Ur-priest or something else? I find that obtaining divine magic without worshipping and being faithful to a god (or gods) to be a cop out.
Educate me. Am I being unreasonable here?
ABSOLULY NOT!!! I would strip the char of his Favored Soul powers , just like a Paladin or Cleric would have happen if they perform an act against thier faith.
tell the Player he can run an UR-Priest (maybe) or just take away the Fav. Soul powers and spells, and tell him to choose another class as he advances.
I think it depends on why the character is a favored soul...this is one of those cases where the PC talked to you about his concept while he was making the PC. I don't have my books handy so let me ask another question...Do favored souls have a section in the class write up that talks about ex-favored souls? If yes then you can pull the powers if not I'd say stop allowing him to advance as a favored soul until he atones.
Some other considerations:
- If the character is some sort of divine scion blood of an angel or some such then maybe letting him keep the powers would be okay.
- If he is a chosen of Boccob then you are well within your rights to at least disallow further advancement.
- Maybe the Deity has some other plan for the character. Talk to the player and see if perhaps he is looking for (or is willing to play) a story of personal growth where he becomes worthy of the mantle bestowed upon him.
There is no section on Ex-favored Souls in the Complete Divine. Honestly I don't know exactly why the character chose Favored Soul, quite possibly for powergaming reasons. I think your advice is solid though. I will make him repent or switch deities to advance in this class. I just don't like the idea of not having divine classes have to worship a deity. Then the player just cherry picks domains for power gaming reasons and not have to roleplay anything.
I think its fine and actually a cooler and different idea than just the usual devoted cleric. Remember he's a Favored Soul.....not a Cleric.
I always thought of Favored Souls to be the opposite of Clerics.
Just like how Sorcerers are the opposite of Wizards.
The big difference is that Clerics choose their god and worship them and get magic in return, where on the other hand Favored Souls are just what their name implies. They are favored and chosen by the god. The god picked them to be a conduit of divine power...the PC didnt pick the god.
So just like the Sorcerer's powers are gifted to them by birth...the Favored Souls powers are gifted to them for some divine purpose. They didnt choose that path.
So Boccob must have some reason for giving them this ability. And since hes neutral and "uncaring" it doesnt surprise me that his favored soul feels the same way.
I agree. Boccob is the "uncaring". If the PC is at least interested in learning and lore, and the preservation of magic, that's all good in Boccob's book, he doesn't seem to care for or need an outpouring of emotion and devotion to him. Boccob may have a purpose for the PC that he/she is not yet aware of, which could make for some interesting roleplaying if the PC sees signs that lead him to this purpose.
Because it's Boccob it makes sense. If it was St. Cuthbert it would not.
The diety in question does change the answer on this one.
I agree. Boccob is the "uncaring". If the PC is at least interested in learning and lore, and the preservation of magic, that's all good in Boccob's book, he doesn't seem to care for or need an outpouring of emotion and devotion to him. Boccob may have a purpose for the PC that he/she is not yet aware of, which could make for some interesting roleplaying if the PC sees signs that lead him to this purpose.
I get this, but I need to come up with some purpose.
The character doesn't have any interest in the magic and learning (as he plays him rather slow in intellect), but more as a shady greedy trickster who picks people's pockets when he cures them.
By the way, this is for the Savage Tide adventure path and I'd like some way to tie in to this greater purpose. This adventure path is about destroying the artifact that causes the savage tide, which sounds like it's VERY much against Boccob's theology.
Some say Judas had a divine purpose.
It is my understanding that is only one account.
My point was that when playing at gods, motives can be quite deceptive. Or to put another way, god works in mysterious ways.
When I clicked on this thread, I was thinking that the answer would be no, but after reading the comments, I can totally see a deity using a PC as a pawn for his own purposes against the PC's will. The character would probably hate the deity for interfering in his life but he wouldn't be able to reject the favored soul powers. I could see using a variation on the 3.5 multiclassing rules, forcing the favored soul class to remain within a level or two of the PC's chosen class....
I am SO using this idea for a campaign!
Would it not be fun if, in the end, the deity had the character’s best interests at heart.
Would it not be fun if, in the end, the deity had the character’s best interests at heart.
Since this is for the Savage Tide campaign, I'm currently thinking that it'll be Malcanthet, Queen of the Succubi, who is secretly granting the divine power. The player won't know this, since he doesn't really scrutinize this divine connection much.
Some say Judas had a divine purpose.
Gospel of Judas!
I'd say no.
If the character isn't an active part in the divine power relationship then he has no control/input in it and the power can be stripped from him at the god's whim. Is that what he wants?
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This question has two different aspects that both have to be addressed. So far, only one has been addressed, the "flavor" of the PC concept.
But the Metagame aspect is even more important! If you decide to take away the PC's powers what is that going to do to the game? If it has the potential (and we don't know your group or this Player) to derail your game, or explode into something that will lose the Player from the game, you have to take a serious look at the importance of sticking with Fluff/ Realism before sabotaging the PC.
And it's also important to discuss with the Player why he is running a Favored Soul -- Boccob is a spectacular choice and class for this if it's a character concept choice, afterall -- and kudos to the Player who thought of it. If, on the other hand, it is a powergaming choice you have to tread delicately. Can the Powergamer contribute to your group?... How 'bout this one that seldom gets asked: Is there some aspect of your DMing style that has caused a Player to want to "powergame" a PC, such as "turtling," inconsistent calls or favoritism?
Ultimately, though it's important for your campaign world (and really fun to discuss) to determine whether a Favored Soul of Boccob can be paying only lip service to the deity, it's more important to look at the metagame cause and effect for this.
-W. E. Ray
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Did the player choose Boccob as his his character's god/source of divine power? Because then having something else grant the powers behind his back might actually offend him, as is usually the case when a DM messes with a player's character concept. Then again, he might just be one of those people that never choose to worship a god with their characters, even when playing a Divine Caster.
That reminds me of my friend; any time a class mentions that you need to worship a god, he wants nothing to do with it.
Since there is no entry on Ex-Favored Souls, I would say that his power can't be stripped, or at least shouldn't be stripped. The logic behind it (in my mind) is that because Clerics and Paladins and their ilk chose their path, they are held to much higher standards. Favored Souls were chosen by the god in question, so I believe they are given a little more leeway, much like the favorite child among their siblings; the others have to work for acknowledgment, while the favored is lavished with it for seemingly no reason. Even though he may not wish for it, Boccob may have his own reasons for continuing to grant him divine powers.
On another note, Boccob may take away these powers temporarily, showing him how hard things might be without his aid, like when he is about to heal an ally from the brink of death and is suddenly unable to.
But since it is Boccob, he probably doesn't care much anyways. It could be an interesting experiment for all the PC knows
On another note, Boccob may take away these powers temporarily, showing him how hard things might be without his aid, like when he is about to heal an ally from the brink of death and is suddenly unable to.
Perhaps you should be careful with this. If the ally is a character belonging to another player, you actually punish the other player and not the player of the favored soul.
Perhaps it is better first to talk with this player about his motives and his purpose with this character. Then you can find out whether he is a power player or whether he has an original character concept in mind. Then you can decide what to do about him.
Since there is no entry on Ex-Favored Souls, I would say that his power can't be stripped, or at least shouldn't be stripped. The logic behind it (in my mind) is that because Clerics and Paladins and their ilk chose their path, they are held to much higher standards. Favored Souls were chosen by the god in question, so I believe they are given a little more leeway, much like the favorite child among their siblings; the others have to work for acknowledgment, while the favored is lavished with it for seemingly no reason.
Not nessicerily. It does state that favoured souls usally find out they're favoured by working for the church. Which makes sense really, you can't find out you're a talented artist if you never try to paint after all.
It's reasons like this why I dislike divine magic though, it creates too many problems when someone plays a character outwith what a god might normally choose to grant powers to.
I'd recommend giving him some sort of divine spell failure (like maybe 5%) and increase it if he continues to show insincerity, or decrease it if he begins to show more respect for the god.
More info for consideration: We are one session into Savage Tide.
I have just asked via email each PC to tell me of their long term and short term personal goals, magic item wish lists, that sort of stuff. I want to incorporate this stuff into the greater plot.
As far as this PC, I think the choice of favored soul is mostly because it can heal and it relies on CHA (mostly) for power as a healer. I think he is going to take wilder levels too as he is playing an Elan (immortal aberration) with bonus power points. So really it is a bit of both power-gaming and character concept. He's playing a character that focuses on trickery (MY observation:flavor Olidammara, Zagyg) yet doesn't drink wine and steals from those he heals (via his low sleight of hand) when the "customer" is incapacitated. I think Boccob was a choice solely for the domain access and alignment. But he ran with that to build what he has now and is role-playing it. He plays the char a bit dim witted, but dirty, greedy and a bit seedy.
Right now I'm leaning towards Boccob really being Malcanthet, as I doubt his character will ever mention Boccob. If he does, I may adjust that.
I have to admit that this is a learning experience for me. "Favored Soul" really could be "Chosen of ...", Both angles work, both devout servant and unwillingly chosen.
So if you were _chosen_, who is to say that you could not be deceived about the true divine source of your power?
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So far, all the favored soul concepts I've really scene in my games have strayed for the standard, and so I don't think it is totally out of the question. With the favored soul the god chooses you, you don't choose the god so you don't have to be devoted like a cleric does. Perhaps whether you like it or not the god has seen that you will need this power at a turning point ahead, or that you may have a revelation and become powerful in their faith. There is a fair amount of this in literature, an oracle or prophecy that predicts that someone has a destiny that must be fulfilled and that destiny is advanced even by those who would normally oppose the chosen one.
One of my favorite concepts for a favored soul so far has actually been the Constantine type, from various hardships the character may not even like his god, but he was born with those powers and now must work with him somehow because by being one of the gods chosen his fate in the afterlife is left in that god's hands.
I think Boccob was a choice solely for the domain access and alignment.
Favored Souls don't get domains.
I think Boccob was a choice solely for the domain access and alignment.Favored Souls don't get domains.
Domain POWERS, right?
Come to think of it, I remember the PC mentioning he was using Cure Light instead of Disguise self. Disguise is a domain spell from trickery. This is not correct, is it? He doesn't get domain spells, does he?
Domain POWERS, right?I think Boccob was a choice solely for the domain access and alignment.Favored Souls don't get domains.
Well, you're the DM, but they don't get any domain powers (as far as I know).
Favored Souls don't get domains.
Domain POWERS, right?
Come to think of it, I remember the PC mentioning he was using Cure Light instead of Disguise self. Disguise is a domain spell from trickery. This is not correct, is it? He doesn't get domain spells, does he?
Favored Souls do not get domain powers. They are like the Sorcerer version for divine. They do get resistance to certain energies at levels (Don't have my book here at work).
They also cannot turn undead.
I think its fine and actually a cooler and different idea than just the usual devoted cleric. Remember he's a Favored Soul.....not a Cleric.
I always thought of Favored Souls to be the opposite of Clerics.
Just like how Sorcerers are the opposite of Wizards.The big difference is that Clerics choose their god and worship them and get magic in return, where on the other hand Favored Souls are just what their name implies. They are favored and chosen by the god. The god picked them to be a conduit of divine power...the PC didnt pick the god.
So just like the Sorcerer's powers are gifted to them by birth...the Favored Souls powers are gifted to them for some divine purpose. They didnt choose that path.
So Boccob must have some reason for giving them this ability. And since hes neutral and "uncaring" it doesnt surprise me that his favored soul feels the same way.
This is what I would say. It is a very precise description of the origin of their powers. Like Sorcerers, they may not even know what deity or being gave them their power.
I have said this before…
There is obviously an issue in the game which is causing you concern. The only real way to get to the bottom of it is to talk to your player(s). Identify what your player(s) want from the game. Express what you want from the game. Work to find a mutually enjoyable solution.
Heck if you want to, you could still just make it malachet and decide that once a god creates a favored soul they can't undo it -- one of those you forced it on them now it's theirs to do with what they will sort of things.
Though I must say an elan favored soul /wilder doesn't sound like such a great combination to me...
I'm currently playing a favored soul and I'm playing up the granted by the god but not understood angle on it. In the end I'm looking at having the character come out to being close to a living avatar (without most of the bells and whistles) where the character has just grown into that.
Within the context of Savage Tide Malcanthet is a logical choice. And she would do something like pretend to be another god in order to hide her tracks. If you think your player can handle the final discovery he has not been chosen by Boccob at all, you should certainly consider this.
Though I must say an elan favored soul /wilder doesn't sound like such a great combination to me...
I certainly wouldn't call it "power-gaming"! Maybe "impotent-gaming"...