Looking through my 'monsters revisited' and noticed they each have a Grp score listed next to their base attack score. Can't find it described anywhere on the forums...can someone explain what it means and how the # is derived?
ex. Goblin (p21 of Monsters Revisited): Base Atk +1, Grp -3
Thanks!
That's the grappling modifier (which is BAB + Str mod + special size modifier, as described in the PH).
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Thanks guys! thing is, the #'s don't seem to add up...
Goblin Warrior 1 (CR 1/3): BAB (+1), Str 11 (+0), Size Sml (-1)
...how does that add up to a Grp of -3? Wouldn't the total be +0?
And for argument's sake let's say they were giving the 'total' score for a goblin grapple attempt (instead of just the CMB score which is what you guys have proposed)..
..which would be...
Melee attack: BAB (+1) Str 11 (+0) *and I'm not sure but would you add (+1) here for their size mod for being sml?*
+ CMB: BAB (+1), Str 11 (+0), Size Sml (-1)
...so a total of +1 (or +2 if you consider their size mod for the basic atk)...how in the world did they come up with a Grp -3?
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Thanks guys! thing is, the #'s don't seem to add up...
Goblin Warrior 1 (CR 1/3): BAB (+1), Str 11 (+0), Size Sml (-1)
...how does that add up to a Grp of -3? Wouldn't the total be +0?
And for argument's sake let's say they were giving the 'total' score for a goblin grapple attempt (instead of just the CMB score which is what you guys have proposed)..
..which would be...
Melee attack: BAB (+1) Str 11 (+0) *and I'm not sure but would you add (+1) here for their size mod for being sml?*
+ CMB: BAB (+1), Str 11 (+0), Size Sml (-1)...so a total of +1 (or +2 if you consider their size mod for the basic atk)...how in the world did they come up with a Grp -3?
lol totally ninja'd you
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According to the math you're claiming, yes, the BAB +1 with -4 from size would work out to be a -3 Grp. So it 'works' for the goblin, but...
..how about the Ogre they have listed on pg.51 of monsters revisited? It's BAB is +3 and its Grp is +12.
Since it's a large creature, according to the 3.5 rules it'd gain +8. So 3 +8 = 11...and then its 21 Str gives it +5...so a total of +16 if we are using your math...
Not to mention, why would a Pathfinder book rely on size modifiers from 3.5? I understand Pathfinder is based on 3.5, but pg 150 of the PH states diff size modifiers for CMB checks, and CMB checks are strictly a pathfinder rule. The place I'm getting these mobs from is 'Monsters Revisited', a Pathfinder book. Jumping in and out of rulesets like that would be incredibly confusing and nonsensical.
According to the math you're claiming, yes, the BAB +1 with -4 from size would work out to be a -3 Grp. So it 'works' for the goblin, but...
..how about the Ogre they have listed on pg.51 of monsters revisited? It's BAB is +3 and its Grp is +12.
Since it's a large creature, according to the 3.5 rules it'd gain +8. So 3 +8 = 11...and then its 21 Str gives it +5...so a total of +16 if we are using your math...Not to mention, why would a Pathfinder book rely on size modifiers from 3.5? I understand Pathfinder is based on 3.5, but pg 150 of the PH clearly states diff modifiers. The place I'm getting these mobs from is 'Monsters Revisited', also clearly a Pathfinder book. Jumping in and out of rulesets like that would be incredibly confusing and nonsensical.
Paizo hasn't started publishing anything with the Pathfinder RPG rules set yet (since the rules book doesn't come out until August). So those are 3.5 grapple modifiers. E.g., the goblin has +1 BAB, -4 for size for a total of -3. The ogre has +3 BAB, +5 Str, +4 for size for a total of +12. It's exactly the same as the 3.5 Monster Manual entry.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Not to mention, why would a Pathfinder book rely on size modifiers from 3.5? I understand Pathfinder is based on 3.5, but pg 150 of the PH states diff size modifiers for CMB checks, and CMB checks are strictly a pathfinder rule. The place I'm getting these mobs from is 'Monsters Revisited', a Pathfinder book. Jumping in and out of rulesets like that would be incredibly confusing and nonsensical.
Until August, there is no official PFRPG. It's still in the beta playtest. As such, changes to the system are still being made. When the rules are finalized and it is publicly released at GenCon, all subsequent Pathfinder products will use the new rules set. Everything up until July of this year is still 3.5.
*Ninja'd by Hogarth!*
Also, Classic Monsters Revisited was released only a month after the initial Alpha release was made public. It would have been done with development and off to the printer before the PFRPG was even a fully formed idea in Mr. Bulmahn's incredibly overworked head.
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Large creatures in 3.5 only get a +4, so that works out too. Basically medium is a 0 modifier, then the first size category either way is -/+4 and it doubles from there going up the chart. So-
diminutive -16
fine -8
small -4
medium 0
large +4
huge +8
gargantuan +16
colossal +32
Hope that helps
Edit: Wow, double ninjad, but hopefully my cheesy chart helps some
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Director of Brand Strategy
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..how about the Ogre they have listed on pg.51 of monsters revisited? It's BAB is +3 and its Grp is +12.
Since it's a large creature, according to the 3.5 rules it'd gain +8. So 3 +8 = 11...and then its 21 Str gives it +5...so a total of +16 if we are using your math...
A large creature has a +4 size bonus to grapple checks. +3 BAB + 4 size + 5 Str = 12
All the stats in the "Revisited" books are straight reprints of the entries in the 3.5 Monster Manual, with a few minor changes here and there to incorporate new feats introduced in the books themselves.
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ahhhh...ok thanks for the clarification! i was adding +8 for large instead of +4, my bad! ...i just got into PF so wasn't aware there would still be some 3.5 rules running around...i wonder if any more recently printed versions of mobs (like in modules and adventure paths) have their #s adjusted to the PF CMB ruleset...can anyone tell me?
also, someone posted the wrong #s for 3.5 size mods (just like i did earlier, lol)- so here is the list from pg156 of the 3.5 PH, once and for all...
Fine -16
Diminutive -12
Tiny -8
Small -4
Medium +0
Large +4
Huge +8
Gargantuan +12
Colossal +16
i wonder if any more recently printed versions of mobs (like in modules and adventure paths) have their #s adjusted to the PF CMB ruleset...can anyone tell me?
The Roleplaying Game rules are still in Beta and will be until the game releases in August. Everything before August (except the Alpha and Beta releases) will be 3.5. Everything after August will be PFRPG.
ahhhh...ok thanks for the clarification! i was adding +8 for large instead of +4, my bad! ...i just got into PF so wasn't aware there would still be some 3.5 rules running around...i wonder if any more recently printed versions of mobs (like in modules and adventure paths) have their #s adjusted to the PF CMB ruleset...can anyone tell me?
also, someone printed the wrong #s for 3.5 size mods (just like i did earlier, lol)- so here is the list from pg156 of the 3.5 PH, once and for all...
Fine -16
Diminutive -12
Tiny -8
Small -4
Medium +0
Large +4
Huge +8
Gargantuan +12
Colossal +16
All printed products put out by Paizo still use 3.5 rules. The Pathfinder RPG rules you have is the Beta, not the official Pathfinder RPG rules. Paizo will be publishing Pathfinder RPG this comming summer and all of their products will use the Pathfinder rules from that time forward.
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I've been playing in an adventure path for a few mo now and we are using the rules from the Beta, and I suppose the DM has been using 3.5 monsters. Doesn't that cause some # jumbling, as I've added up my dwarf's grapple attempt #s based on CMB/beta rules and the goblin I'm attempting to grapple is using size mods and grapple rules based off of 3.5?
I've been playing in an adventure path for a few mo now and we are using the rules from the Beta, and I suppose the DM has been using 3.5 monsters. Doesn't that cause some # jumbling, as I've added up my dwarf's grapple attempt #s based on CMB/beta rules and the goblin I'm attempting to grapple is using size mods and grapple rules based off of 3.5?
Yes, that's one of the few things that should be converted (grapple modifier => CMB).
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I've been playing in an adventure path for a few mo now and we are using the rules from the Beta, and I suppose the DM has been using 3.5 monsters. Doesn't that cause some # jumbling, as I've added up my dwarf's grapple attempt #s based on CMB/beta rules and the goblin I'm attempting to grapple is using size mods and grapple rules based off of 3.5?
They want the adventures published previous to the PFRPG to be playable with as little conversion as possible. So you've been doing is basically testing that theory, and since you haven't even noticed the difference, it seems to be working. Since there is no CMB in 3.5, your DM would have to figure that out himself or herself so that shouldn't be an issue. I'm running CotCT AP withe the 3.5 stats, but PFRPG Beta rules, I need to figure out the CMB of opponents, and occasionally give them some extra HPs or feats depending on their class levels.
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ok, so I look at the Grp as CMB, thus my combat maneuver check against an ogre will be DC15 +12 = 27.
I want to disarm that killer greatclub from said ogre...
When rolling do I add JUST my CMB bonus (+9) to the d20, or does the CMB stack onto my attack roll? and what if it's a magic whip and I have wep focus with it?
If I'm just adding my CMB a d20 +9 (+2 from whip) will disarm only on a roll of 16 or greater...considering the ogre is CR3 that seems a little unbalanced as I'm talking about a lv6 fighter here.
If I add the CMB to the attack roll with the whip it'll be +9 CMB, and +13 whip atk (6 BAB +3 str +2 whip bonus +1 wep focus +1 magical) for a total of +21. So now all I need to roll is a 6. This also seems a bit unbalanced, just in my favor instead of the ogre's.
...which example is how it should be played? And am I missing any #s or doing fuzzy math anywhere?
The ogre's CMB should be +9 (+3 BAB, +5 Str, +1 size). So the answer (unfortunately) is that you need a 13 or higher to succeed. Maybe they'll change that in the final version of the rules...