Since we haven't really seen anything since 2E, I am also hoping they revamp and overhaul the setting for 4E rather than try to adapt everything in the old setting to 4E to be true. The hope, I would think, would be to bring back fans of the setting, but also to bring in new fans, too.
Since we haven't really seen anything since 2E, I am also hoping they revamp and overhaul the setting for 4E rather than try to adapt everything in the old setting to 4E to be true. The hope, I would think, would be to bring back fans of the setting, but also to bring in new fans, too.
When it comes to these things, given the span of time since we've had more than a few magazine articles, I'm a big fan of "stay fiercely loyal to the spirit of the setting, but canon details be 'darned'". With a newer setting like Eberron, I think they would have had a lot of trouble if parted strongly with canon and said Breland was suddenly a nation of warforged, that would be a bit crazy. However, since Dark Sun has been at rest for so long, I don't care of Tyr is free or not, or any of the nitty gritties of the Champions of Rajaat. I just want it to feel like Dark Sun.
Another good test for me, is the Old Art test for campaign settings. Basically it's "Can you use the old artwork?" If so, then you've successfully updated the setting, if not, then you failed.
I'm not advocating recycled art. What I'm saying is if most of the old art still fits with the updated setting, then you've captured the feel (since the nebulous "feel" of a setting is often captured well in art). If the old artwork doesn't mesh well and gives the wrong feel, well then you've made a new setting, which may be nice, but isn't Dark Sun (or Planescape, or Ravenloft, or...).
I wonder if the first real indication that Dark Sun is getting 4e release will be at athas.org.
Here's the statement that is at the bottom of there webpage (has been for a long time):
"This site is recognized by WotC as the Official Dark Sun site on the internet. Content created on the official website is considered to be derivative work (as it is based on the intellectual property owned by Wizards of the Coast). This means that fan-created add-ons (such as new net books, adventures, etc.) are jointly owned by both Wizards of the Coast and the creator; neither can do anything outside the official website without the permission of the other."
I'm guessing that once Wotc decides to publish new Dark Sun material, this site will lose whatever license they have.
While I don't know enough to speculate, and I already enjoy 4e, i would be exceedingly happy to see Dark Sun as the "new" setting. It was by far my favorite campaign setting, pretty much ever. :)
I wonder if the first real indication that Dark Sun is getting 4e release will be at athas.org.
Here's the statement that is at the bottom of there webpage (has been for a long time):
"This site is recognized by WotC as the Official Dark Sun site on the internet. Content created on the official website is considered to be derivative work (as it is based on the intellectual property owned by Wizards of the Coast). This means that fan-created add-ons (such as new net books, adventures, etc.) are jointly owned by both Wizards of the Coast and the creator; neither can do anything outside the official website without the permission of the other."
I'm guessing that once Wotc decides to publish new Dark Sun material, this site will lose whatever license they have.
I haven't talked to the athas.org folks in a while to see if they have had any recent communications with WotC, but as the former owner of the Official Planescape Fan Site (Planewalker), we entered into the same license they did back in 2000 or something. Personnel changed so often (unfortunately, typically due to layoffs) that I think they just didn't bother keeping track. In fact, a few years ago I was talking with the licensing person of the moment and he said he had absolutely no record anymore of our license, but obviously there was something and he was really busy, so he just let us keep doing what we were.
As for the "derivative" aspect, that's typical fan site sort of stuff and nothing to do with their status as the Official Dark Sun site. Basically it says that they don't claim ownership of the Dark Sun material, but also WotC doesn't have ownership of the stuff they created. It has no bearing whatsoever on WotC's plans for Dark Sun. In fact, from at least my experience as the Planescape fan site owner, I was somewhat in the loop and playtesting material during the first year of 3.0, but with the first personnel change, that abruptly ended and a news site like EN World had orders of magnitude more access and influence than the "Official" fan site into anything setting related.
Since it had become pretty meaningless over the years, at some point we slowly phased out the "Official Planescape Fan Site" label and started going with the "Premiere Planescape Fan Site". Not sure if they are keeping that up still or not. Other than links on the messageboards here, WotC doesn't really have anything to do with the Official Fan Sites anymore - at least to my knowledge from Planescape and talking to the other owners a few years back. Maybe it's changed, but I'm guessing few people at WotC, especially outside of R&D even know the sites exist or care.
I'm guessing the 2010 setting will be Dragonlance based on the fact that WotC will be hosting a Dragonlance 25th anniversary celebration with Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman at Gencon this year, the same event at which they will announce next year's setting.
I'm guessing the 2010 setting will be Dragonlance based on the fact that WotC will be hosting a Dragonlance 25th anniversary celebration with Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman at Gencon this year, the same event at which they will announce next year's setting.
I hope not. I have less than zero interest in Dragonlance in any form. I, at least, picked up the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and will pick up Eberron's, not being interested in any of the campaign stuff put out for them. Dragonlance would, in all likelihood be the first camapign setting where I wouldn't pick up either. I never saw the appeal. I'm holding out for Dark Sun.
I'm guessing the 2010 setting will be Dragonlance based on the fact that WotC will be hosting a Dragonlance 25th anniversary celebration with Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman at Gencon this year, the same event at which they will announce next year's setting.
That does sound likely. I wonder if they'd keep the metallic dragons as good, as go with unaligned (as in MM2)? I'm very interested in how they'd handle the various "robes" in the towers of high sorcery. Paragon Paths? Wizard builds? Both?
I have never been interested in Dragonlance, but Dark Sun is has a coolness factor to it, and fits with the Points of Light ideal.
I hope not. I have less than zero interest in Dragonlance in any form. I, at least, picked up the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and will pick up Eberron's, not being interested in any of the campaign stuff put out for them. Dragonlance would, in all likelihood be the first camapign setting where I wouldn't pick up either. I never saw the appeal. I'm holding out for Dark Sun.
Same here. I have very little interest in Dragonlance. Personally, I'm holding out a slim hope for Spelljammer, Planescape, and Dark Sun, in that order. Greyhawk, maybe?
Personally I loved Dragonlance, at least the War of the Lance stuff and Taladas. That said I loved Darksun as well so I'd be somewhat on board with either - though I lean toward Dragonlance because I could probably adapt some Dragonlance material to my homebrew where as Darksun is likely right out.
I never cared for DL, good place for books not so much for Role playing. For me, anyhow. With the 25th anny coming up, if I was wizards I would so cash in on it. Be a great time to bring it out. Maybe some new books. Set it in the new time line. Yeah if ya can get MW on board all the better.
The way I see it the novels have remade the setting perfect time to bring the game side in line with the new timeline. As the books have had far reaching effect.
I have never been interested in Dragonlance, but Dark Sun is has a coolness factor to it, and fits with the Points of Light ideal.
Dragonlance is nearly the epitome of points of light. A world that is dominated by a great empire is wracked and halfway destroyed by the Gods for its hubris. 346 years later small towns and the odd smallish city are recovering from this horrifying event and slowly pushing outward to discover each other and the wider world...meanwhile evil threatens. Its like a fantasy trope made out of fantasy tropes.
Dragonlance.
Shiver.
Be a great time to bring it out. Maybe some new books. Set it in the new time line. Yeah if ya can get MW on board all the better.
I think they'd have more success if they just focused on the War of the Lance period. It was by far the most popular period of the game. I tend to think that MW took the license in part because it was possible for her to write the most popular book second. Essentially WotC required that they got to publish the first book of any of the licenses they gave out. Since the first book is usually the most popular and best selling a lot of licensee's balked at this but MW just wrote them the book that detailed the world at the point where the last novel left off and then followed that up by having her own company publish the War of the Lance specific book. Presumably because she knew full well that the number of people interested in the latest period of the World of Krynn was miniscule compared to the number of people who where interested in the War of the Lance period. This seems to be supported by the fact that most of the material that then followed also focused on the War of the Lance or was generic to any point in the setting.
I prefer anything that isn't Fifth Age Krynn. As for holding out for anything else other then Dragonlance or Dark Sun I believe it was stated on these forums that somewhere on the Wizards website or in the Manual of the Planes it listed established worlds and the list was Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Athas, Oerth, and Krynn.
Despite the fact that Dragonlance was the first real setting I interacted with - and the Dragonlance books my first connection to anything D&D - I'd prefer not to see it as a new setting for some time, unless they did it right.
In this case, 'doing it right' doesn't refer to a perfect representation of the lore and the background and so forth - I like all those things, sure, but I'm cool with reasonable adjustments being made.
No, to 'do it right' they would need to really understand what made Dragonlance unique in the first place, and bring it back. We've already got a generic fantasy setting - Forgotten Realms - and we don't need another one... and that is just what Dragonlance had become in its last few appearances.
The thing is, a good setting needs a theme. Greyhawk is your classic fantasy setting, and somewhat grim and gritty. Forgotten Realms is your high-magic fantasy setting, filled with the fantastic. Ravenloft is about horror, Planescape about exploration and discovery, Eberron about more modern themes and magical tech - and so forth and so on.
The world of Dragonlance is a world at war.
That's the element that needs to be focused on in any truly successful Dragonlance setting - a world where every part of the setting is drawn into one huge, overarching conflict. Without it, it has a bunch of great ideas and cool locations and orders of wizards and knights and so on... but we can find all that in any random fantasy setting.
So, if they can leverage the focus of the setting to provide something unique, I'm all for it. But as it is, I'd be much happier seeing Dark Sun (despite almost no personal history with that setting), simply because I think the more diversity in the available settings, the better.
Usually I agree with you but I'm not sure if I do here.
Certainly the backdrop of war is a really significant aspect of the setting but its not, IMO, exactly its defining characteristic. I mean if one wants to consider a war scarred setting in many ways Greyhawk is a better example. OK it takes place in the aftermath of a major war but it seems much more clearly a world defined as grim gritty and war scarred.
There are aspects of that in Dragonlance but then there are also Kender and Minoi to juxtapose that against. Dragonlance, at least the War of the Lance period, more then most D&D products is often less a story of the tragedy of war and more a story of hope reborn.
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My 2cp:
Forgotten Realms and Eberron were "must haves" and as a result were published without regards cross-promotion...For example, the primal power source introduced in the PHB2 is not really "geared" for Eberron.
We know at this point that psionic power source is PHB3...as well as the Monk. Asian classes and psionic power sources point towards both Dark Sun (psionics) and Asian (the Monk) campaigns.
The "safe" bet is Dark Sun. But I would not discard the notion of an asian setting. It is a popular fantasy setting, brings in the manga/anime fans, and can be done without re-hashing old settings. The WotC model of re-publishing the same content is under a lot of fire, and "new" asian campaign setting goes a long way towards quelling it. With cross-promotion, all those new Monks, Shukenja, and Wu Jen in PHB3 will fit in nicely to such a setting, and the cool paragon paths, feats, and majic items in the asian campaign will complement your PHB3 classes. You'll want both.
I personally would like to see Dragonlance, but I have a feeling it's going to be Dark Sun. Which would be great too.
There is so much required at this point to put out a game book for Dragonlance. I don't know if people would accept a second "blown up" setting - therefore all the years of various reference books would need to be taken into consideration and a lot of thought put into what direction to take. I would think they would need at least a couple years to work on it.
Dark Sun, on the other hand, has fewer references to turn too. Plus, the specifics of Dark Sun aren't as sacred - it's really about the mood and sweeping themes that makes it special. Add the fact that psionics are coming out the same year, and I foresee a Dark Sun.
I've been back and forth with this, so I may have a different prediction tomorrow. I reserve that right - or is it a privilege? ;)
Based on this link I actually think DL is more probable. For those not willing (or not able) to click on the link, a leak of the next mini's lineup has been found sporting an Aurak Draconian. While I wouldn't say it's a clear open-and-shut case, what do you think the chances are that WotC would put out a mini for a monster that didn't exist, especially as the minis aren't meant to work as a stand alone game anymore.
For the record, I would have preferred DS, although being a wee bit too young to have ever seen original DL, I'm interested in seeing what WotC can do with it.
Dragonlance 4e would make sense for the anniversary mentioned in this thread.
On the other side, Krynn is not that different from Toril.
Dark Sun 4e would also make sense for the coming of the 4th edition psionic rules.
It would also be a good marketing target, as the world is radically different from the others, with his scorched landscapes, and his Mad Max/Fallout style.
What about Ravenloft 4e ?
The domains of terror would also attract a vast mass of players, interested in gothic, vampires, werewolves and all.
That's a big marketing opportunity.
They have "rolled" Ravenloft themes into the "core". Domain of Dreads are now pockets within the Shadowfell so I doubt we will see an actual stock Ravenloft 4E setting. The base assumption of what settings will be made into 4E has to do with some remark somewhere about game worlds (could have been Wizards site or Manual of the Planes so if someone knows it would be good to post) being Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Athas, Oerth, and Krynn.
My worry, really, is that without some sort of theme - and it certainly doesn't have to be war, that is simply the one that fits best in my view - there isn't a reason to bring the setting out... at least not so quickly behind such other similar settings. There are plenty of fans of every setting, after all - liking specific elements isn't reason enough on its own for WotC to make it a priority. But if it has something that really makes it distinct, that brings something new to the table so that its campaigns will really stand out...
The difficulty I see with trying to capture what Dragonlance had is that its essentially trying to capture lightning in a bottle twice. From the perspective of 1984 when Dragonlance was first released it was a ground breaking product that had a huge impact on the shape of Dungeons & Dragons from that moment on but what it brought to the game has already been incorporated.
Essentially, prior to Dragonlance, you have adventure modules that, by and large, focus on a specific place and are usually full of monsters which the PCs proceed to kill. Dragonlance focused the game not so much on killing things and taking their stuff but on an over arcing story about good and evil filled with adventures whose plot lines where things like 'help the slaves escape', 'pass the Gold Dragons test' or 'help the good races overcome their differences and forge an alliance'. It was chalk full of a complex multi-faceted story with highly fleshed out NPCs. Now I personally think that it was deeply flawed in many ways but, never the less, it opened up the game to a whole different, and much deeper, style of play. A way of playing the game that simply had not been clear to younger DMs that had been taking their que on how to play Dungeons & Dragons from the adventures that had been published up until that time (with the possible exception of Ravenloft - but that was also a pretty ground breaking product for its time).
The difficulty however is that your not really showing us anything new if you show us this material again. Fundamentally the whole original campaign is nothing but an AP and one that's flawed by today's standards.
That said I'd still like to see it, especially if its weak points are cleaned up. As for theme - well Dragonlance just drips epic fantasy tropes and would be a great setting to use in order to convince your son and daughter to play as well as your wife. I'd think this would be an ideal setting/Adventure Path combo to aim at new gamers. Both young gamers and older 'not yet' gamers. Rope 'em in with the story and hopefully they'll stay for the combat.
Stuff... Now I personally think that it was deeply flawed in many ways but...stuff...Fundamentally the whole original campaign is nothing but an AP and one that's flawed by today's standards.
I'm really interested in this if you care to elaborate...perhaps in a new thread? I just started the Chronicles for the first time (annotated version), so I'm genuinely curious.
Dark Sun things I’ve been thinking about:
Races:
Dragonborn - the followers of Draggoth (the Dray?)
Tiefling - Perhaps one of the Sorcerer-Kings corrupted his people and now they are Tieflings
Halflings – leave them as cannibals
Leave Eladrin and Gnomes out, but give short rules for those who want to add them
Genasai fit the setting fine
Warforged are made of wood and stone (obsidian?)
Half-Orcs are called Muls
Goliaths are called Half-Giants
Devas are called Pyreen
Shifters – wild race from the Forest Ridge
Thri-Kreen added as a new race
Classes:
Divine classes get power from either the Sorcerer-Kings or the Elements
Arcane classes are by default Preservers, but can take a Feat for Defiling that adds to the power of the spells (Encounter Power?) but leaves the telltale ash and is an evil act.
Paladins no longer have alignment restrictions, so they can just be Defenders of their patron, whatever it may be.
New class – Trader since Templar can just be a Paladin and Gladiator was in Dragon
Setting:
I would advance the setting in time so Borys and Kalak are dead, but Dreggoth is causing troubles.
Leave Raajat the Warbringer as is, imprisoned in The Black (Shadowfell?) I like the back-story just fine.
Dragon, Avangion and Spirit of the Land are Epic Paths
Thanks to those of you who came up with this first
A defiler was a much more powerful wizard, they gained spells faster and often cast them as 2 or more levels higher. I do not know enough about 4e to even guess at how to do this under that system but am sure it could be doneThat's just it. The defiler was an uber-class. The only reason people played preservers was for role-playing reasons because the preserver was a second rate class compared to the defiler. On the surface that is all right if that was your type of game, but 4E is more about balanced classes and leaving the differences to the non-mechanical aspects of role-playing. If defiling is to not be some balanced mechanic, then it may left to a role-playing choice much like alignment has no mechanical effect anymore. I think that that would be a good way to go, but I'm open to a build option if it can be done in an interesting way. I'm not so tied to previous editions that I can not appreciate a new idea if it works for me.Well preservers could defile, That option was open to them. Preservers where PHB wizards with some fluff added. Your spell level and the boost you got depended on where you prepared your spells. Lush forest and gardens got you a damned nice boost.
Also note people killed wizards on sight preserver or defiler did not matter. Even the Dragon kings killed them, unless they were a pet difiler
Really once you decide how magic works then you know how the two classes work
I ran a 2nd edition game of Dark sun for a few years and it was a damn good campaign but the Psion, Perserver, Defiler and Clerics were all an issue.
The Defiler the a Wizard who needed living energy to power his spells so he just tore the living energy from the ground and other living creatures. The area would then become damaged or even dead( unable to grow anything for a number of years). Any living creature would feel pain when a defiler cast if they were in the area of effect.
The Preserver was more careful in his casting and casting the spell gently easing the energy from the area and not causing the devastation ( or hurting people).
Everyone wanted to kill defilers because of fear and the damage to the land(turning more areas into waste lands). Defilers(including the sorcerer kings) wanted to kill defilers because they were a threat.
Preservers were targetted normally because people didn't understand magic and the spellcaster obviously wasn't an elemental cleric.
The Cleric in 3rd ed was badly represented as the spell lists needed redoing to divide the elemental spells up. The domain options weren't good enough for dark sun and didn't represent it very well.
The Psion was ok but very different from the old edition but possible.
2010 is is Dark Sun!!!!
2010 is is Dark Sun!!!!
Part of me was hoping for Dragonlance, but this is pretty cool too! Also, see Wizards' official page about it...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090814
Honestly, I'll be interested in seeing how this plays out. I will be interested in seeing if they decide to do the "full reset" or if they try to continue the story of previous editions.
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2010 is is Dark Sun!!!!
Similar news here on Facebook. Cover art looks sweet. My only question is, when will we see 4E Mystara?
I'm not sure if they will do Mystara. They mention on the Wizards site that they wanted to intentionally start with a "standard" D&D world, and when them mentioned them, they lumped FR, Greyhawk, Mystara, and Dragonlance all together as "standard." They said Eberron was just a bit off of standard, and Dark Sun is further out than that.
I'm not sure what would be less standard than Dark Sun that they would do next, so perhaps they will repeat the cycle with a "standard" setting again.
(Disclaimer: I think this quick synopsis does do a bit of a disservice to said settings by lumping them together like this without any discussion of their different nuances, but I get what they are saying for purposes of deviating from core D&D assumptions)
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I'm not sure if they will do Mystara. They mention on the Wizards site that they wanted to intentionally start with a "standard" D&D world, and when them mentioned them, they lumped FR, Greyhawk, Mystara, and Dragonlance all together as "standard." They said Eberron was just a bit off of standard, and Dark Sun is further out than that.
I would not be surprised if this is the case. There hasn't been much love for Mystara since 2E. Of course, by 2017 they will either have to do a new edition, do Mystara, or start creating original settings again.
Honestly, I'll be interested in seeing how this plays out. I will be interested in seeing if they decide to do the "full reset" or if they try to continue the story of previous editions.
They are resetting to the original boxset in timeline, with novels not being canon.
Well poopy, now I have to get a 4e PHB.
They are resetting to the original boxset in timeline, with novels not being canon.
That sounds awesome. Was that verbal, or did you find that online somewhere?
Planescape or Ravenloft could be considered more out there than Dark Sun.
I'm not sure what would be less standard than Dark Sun that they would do next, so perhaps they will repeat the cycle with a "standard" setting again.
Spelljammer?
I'm absolutely thrilled at this news. The cover looks amazing and reminds me of the Dragon Kings cover from Brom in some ways.
The interview with the designers seems promising, as 2 of the original creators of Dark Sun are working on this project now.
I do see some challenges for them though, and hope that they do not try to shoehorn every single race/class into the game. I mean how do you explain the presence of Gnomes and Half-orcs in a setting where those races were wiped out by sorcerer-kings centuries ago?
I'd rather see them publish an article, or sidebar in the book saying "The following races/classes should be considered carefully by DM's and players, as they will require significant work to include them in the Dark Sun setting."
I can see Dragonborn being written off as Dregoth's new race, the Dray. Gnomes are dead, period. Half-orcs would be hard to justify considering there are no orcs, unless they made them half-tareks or something instead. Goliaths would make a fine half-giant. Tieflings could be a race create by the Pristine Tower perhaps. Humans, elves, halflings, dwarves, and half-elves are all easily ported in and would need few changes. Eladrin could be a faction of elves that left Athas for the Feywild during the cleansing wars perhaps to escape death. Devas would need to lose their divine ties to deities as there are no gods. Maybe a dark connection to the Grey or the elemental lords would suffice. I'd probably remove shifters too, as there are no lycanthropes on Athas.
New races would be the Mul and Thri-kreen, plus whatever is appropriate from the PHB3.
Almost all the classes are probably ok, except the divine classes. They will need to be reworked to function in a world with no gods. I'm expecting both fluff and crunch changes here. Arcane classes will need to use plant energy for their spells, so this needs to be explained in 4E terms too. Not sure what the new class will be, if there is one. We have gladiator powers and feats already, so it won't be that. Psionics are in the PHB3. Maybe a templar or elemental cleric class? I doubt we'll see a defiler class. This would be better explained as feats and powers, similar to the gladiator setup.
They are resetting to the original boxset in timeline, with novels not being canon.That sounds awesome. Was that verbal, or did you find that online somewhere?
Summaries of info found out on the intrawebs. I'm a nice guy though, so I don't mind being asked to cite.
Wizards of the Coast: How is Dark Sun being conceptualized for 4th Edition? What is being retained about the setting, and what might be added, altered, or deleted? Are there significant events in store, such as with Forgotten Realms and the Spellplague, or a broader retcon of the entire setting?
James Wyatt: Our goal with the setting was to cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible while still allowing as many D&D options as we could and making the setting ideal for 4th Edition play. We’re in the process of re-releasing Troy Denning’s excellent Prism Pentad series of novels, and we didn’t want readers to come away from those books and look at the campaign setting and not recognize it as the same world. So we tried to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun boxed set while ensuring that the Prism Pentad novels could be one possible way things turn out.
Summaries of info found out on the intrawebs. I'm a nice guy though, so I don't mind being asked to cite.
Sorry if it sounded like I doubted you, all I really wanted was more info. Wizard's website is blocked for me here at work (Websense sucks), so I can't see it until I get home.
Thank-you for the quote.
Dark Sun sounds pretty awesome, though I think after that they might go with something new. In every version of the game they bring out at least one new setting, and I think after dark sun 4e will be due for an original setting of its own.
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