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I just wanted to ask thematically, what is the difference between a cleric and a paladin? They both are combat oriented and have “divine support”.
And if I wanted to say, make a village priest, with social skills or a monk who lives in an abbey illuminating manuscripts, and tending to a library, any suggestions? How could I go about making a divine spell caster who relies much more on his spells as opposed to his combat capability?
Thanks
I'd say, the difference thematically is the same as the difference between a priest who goes on crusade and knight who goes on crusade and joins an order like the Templars or Hospitallers.
If you didn't want him to have spell-casting abilities, I'd make that priest an expert.
Paladin: A dedicated holy warrior who exists to smite the enemies of the church 1st, serve in any other capacity second.
Cleric: A dedicated man of the cloth who exists to serve the church in many ways: proselytizing, holding communion, what have you. Except in the possible cases of war gods, the cleric isn't meant to be the primary source of armed might in the church. Even then, the cleric exists to do more than personally slaughter the foes of the church. Sure, that's what he'll do, but he'll also organize troops, conduct prayers before battles, etc.
I just wanted to ask thematically, what is the difference between a cleric and a paladin? They both are combat oriented and have “divine support”.
And if I wanted to say, make a village priest, with social skills or a monk who lives in an abbey illuminating manuscripts, and tending to a library, any suggestions? How could I go about making a divine spell caster who relies much more on his spells as opposed to his combat capability?
Thanks
If you want a scholar-type character, you've got a problem as both the Paladin and Cleric are low on skill points and can scarcely afford a high INT at the expense of STR, OON, WIS and CHA. Maybe an actual Monk would be best, as he has access to more skill points and is traditionally thought of as a more cerebral type of character...
Here's another thought on a spell casting divine scholar:
Build a Cleric with high DEX, WIS and INT. Attack and defense both rely on having a good DEX, so you can ignore STR and CON in favor of INT. Either use an elf for the DEX bonus, or a human for extra skill points and the Able Learner feat (which lets you stretch your cross-class skill points).
I just wanted to ask thematically, what is the difference between a cleric and a paladin?
Lawful Good, a cleric can be of any alignment (give or take that one step from the god's alignment). A paladin starts off and always has to be Lawful Good, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Basically a militant enforcer of law in any area they find themselves in. Clerics have a bit more leeway in things. A paladin's code is almost a way of life, there are a lot of restrictions and many groups hate paladins or "hand wave" things so they are less disruptive to the group. Also while a cleric might be content running services in a temple tending/recruiting followers, a paladin is going to strike out and take their beliefs out into the world taking a little more "active" hand in things.
They both are combat oriented and have “divine support”.
I guess it depends on what your definition of combat oriented is. Generally speaking full BAB usually is what our group would base that decision on. Not to say clerics or monks (your examples) aren't good in combat but they aren't necessarily main combatants. A Paladin has a full BAB and that is part of what makes them a "front" line combatant. Any class can take armor proficiency, there is no way to increase your BAB in that way at all times. Also being able to cast Miracle and have your god warp reality is something I would call a little more than "divine support" lol. It is more like heavy artillery. A paladin is typically going to be relying a great deal more on material things, trusty sword and armor, where a cleric has more metaphysical(?) options
And if I wanted to say, make a village priest, with social skills or a monk who lives in an abbey illuminating manuscripts, and tending to a library, any suggestions?
Mairkurion {tm}'s suggestion is probably the way to go, assuming it isn't a PC. Expert is a little underpowered for a PC.
How could I go about making a divine spell caster who relies much more on his spells as opposed to his combat capability?
Play him that way. Just because you have access to something doesn't mean you have to use it. Don't wear a shield or use heavy armor (or any armor), wear robes if that is what you want to do. However realize come combat you might end up as easy prey as you don't have unlimited spells. If you are going to play a vulnerable character or you aren't going to take advantage of the options you have, you can't complain if you die as combat is a significant part of the game (and why every PC class is "combat oriented" to some degree).
If you want a less combat oriented cleric, there is always the cloistered cleric variant originally printed in Unearthed Arcana.
If you want a less combat oriented cleric, there is always the cloistered cleric variant originally printed in Unearthed Arcana.
I second this notion, playing one now in our ongoing campaign. Definitely not a character to get into melee with (then again, I'm not loading out for that sort of thing). Those skill points make a big difference.
Good call, Disenchanter. At the moment I forgot the cloistered cleric. Better option for a PC than an expert.
Paladin: A dedicated holy warrior who exists to smite the enemies of the church 1st, serve in any other capacity second.
Cleric: A dedicated man of the cloth who exists to serve the church in many ways: proselytizing, holding communion, what have you. Except in the possible cases of war gods, the cleric isn't meant to be the primary source of armed might in the church. Even then, the cleric exists to do more than personally slaughter the foes of the church. Sure, that's what he'll do, but he'll also organize troops, conduct prayers before battles, etc.
I'd like to disagree with this. A cleric is a holy warrior. He's meant to go forth and smite the enemies of his church, with weapon and spell. The rank and file clergy are comprised mostly of NPC class characters. The PC class Clerics are imbued with great powers because they are meant to adventure.
The paladin is in fact, not necessarily affiliated with a church at all. He is a warrior who is dedicated to law and good, not necessarily any particular deity.
Good call, Disenchanter. At the moment I forgot the cloistered cleric. Better option for a PC than an expert.
I love the class myself, but that doesn't mean it is for every game/group.
For example, if you are in a 4 player party in a Paizo AP, you'd be better off with a regular cleric. Never know when you need to be a bad-ass combatant.
Paladin: A dedicated holy warrior who exists to smite the enemies of the church 1st, serve in any other capacity second.
Cleric: A dedicated man of the cloth who exists to serve the church in many ways: proselytizing, holding communion, what have you. Except in the possible cases of war gods, the cleric isn't meant to be the primary source of armed might in the church. Even then, the cleric exists to do more than personally slaughter the foes of the church. Sure, that's what he'll do, but he'll also organize troops, conduct prayers before battles, etc.
I'd like to disagree with this. A cleric is a holy warrior. He's meant to go forth and smite the enemies of his church, with weapon and spell. The rank and file clergy are comprised mostly of NPC class characters. The PC class Clerics are imbued with great powers because they are meant to adventure.
The paladin is in fact, not necessarily affiliated with a church at all. He is a warrior who is dedicated to law and good, not necessarily any particular deity.
Your interpretation is a fair one. I think the simplest way to sum up my interpretation is that paladins are about combat 1st, everything else second, while clerics are about a variety of potential roles, not necessarily combat 1st (though they certainly can be). I wasn't trying to imply that clerics aren't holy warriors, merely that they can be so much more. A paladin, to me at least, is primarily a holy warrior.
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Thank you all for your thoughts. The cloistered cleric seems to fit the bill for a more scholarly oriented cleric.
I wanted to run an idea by you guys. In my opinion, the cleric gets one of the best packages in the game. It gets the medium attack progression, d8 hitpoints, the use of all armor, and on top of that the spells per day of a dedicated spell caster class, a class spell list surpassed only by the sorcerer/ wizard class spell list, two domains, which often grant a small special ability, and spells beyond the class spell list, Turn undead, and here are two huge perks : a) these characters can cast spells in armor without hiinderence and b) every time they level, they have access to their entire spell list.
I remember in 2003 just before 3.5 came out I went to IConn, in Stoneybrook Long Island. I went to a panel which had Monte Cook, Skip Williams and Bill Slavisek ( my appoligies if I misspelled the name). They were taking Q&A and they were convincing us that 3.5 was an improvement over 3.0. I remember asking Skip Williams if the cleric class wasn’t a little more powerful when compaired to the four other base classes, fighter, wizard and rogue. He said that it was, and that they deliberately packed the class with more goodies to make it more attractive to play. I suppose I am one of those odd ducks who likes to play clerics, but it has been my experience that it is often either the last class played, or the DM puts in a NPC cleric.
Now I have been thinking, three of the four base classes follow a pattern. With the new pathfinder beta: The fighter, has, feats, full base attack bonus and 2 skill points per level. The rogue has a medium base attack bonus, d8 hit points, and 8 skill points per level. The wizard has the poor base attack bonus, d6 hit points, 2 skill points per level, and relies heavily on his magic.
The cleric doesn’t fit this mold.
I have been thinking in my home brew games of replacing the cleric, with three variant devine spell casters, which I think will fall in closer line with the other three classes.
1) scolarly Illumanator cloisterd priest or monk….. use the wizard bab, saves, spells per day, spell book, has acces to cleric spell list instead of wizard and replace the familiar with turn undead, give two domains.
2) Prophit’ mystic- use the Sorcerer bab, save spells per day, spells known, all drawn from the cleric spell list) replace the familiar class feature with the paladin’s lay on of hands.
3) parish priest, Use the bard class bab saves, speslls per day, spells known ( drawn from the cleric spell list) and bardic music, skill points / level, and simply change the acess of the spell lsit form the bard spell list to the cleric spell list.
What do you guys think? I know these classes are less powerful then the standard cleric, but I think they fall in line more closely with the three other base classes,
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Well, here's some things you'll find. Except in a few specific excpetions, the cleric spell list is less combat oriented than others. As a cleric, I've found that I need to keep certain spells available for an adventuring day just in case. The fact that you have a good defense is balanced by the fact that about a third of the time you are in combat you are going to be in the middle of combat helping by either buffing or healing someone else. If you want to play a less combat oriented cleric, make int fairly high, play a human and then you get access to a lot of great skill points and can play the brainy type. Nothing says that you have to wear the heaviest armor available.
As to the others, there was a favored soul that was basically a sorcerer cleric and then there was an option for a divine bard that switched out wis for cha and added a few spells to the list. I just don't think you need to change it much to make it viable.
Ultimately, I've not seen clerics as overpowered at all, though I like playing clerics, I think specifically because I like have options. That and I LOVE religious flavor. I find it fascinating.
And just a little note, I play a combat cleric and I've had to really work to keep her a viable combat resource. I've had to take two weapon fighting, keep her in light armor, take craft arms and armor(just to keep up with our fighter on specific cases), and even then, I'm only really effective in combat with Divine Power and at least one other buff up against evil creatures with low DR.
The 3.5 class which best fits the "monk scribe" role is the Archivist from the "Heroes of Horror" supplement WotC put out near the end of 3.5. It is essentially the divine version of the wizard, gaining a few cleric spells per level, but otherwise improving his spell access by copying divine spells from scrolls and other archivist's prayerbooks, using the same rules as the wizard. Additionally, it gains several "dark knowledge" abilities, which allow the archivist to make knowledge checks to grant bonuses to his allies in combat against creatures he can identify. Essentially the Archivist takes a move action to shout out "Go for the knees!" or "Don't look it directly in the eyes!" and other such helpful hints that give the rest of the party a bonus to attacks or saves, etc.
Overall, I think the class is quite fun. The only thing that might cause some worry is that an archivist can actually write any divine spell in his prayerbook, so the more divine classes and cleric domains you use in your campaign, the larger the archivist's potential spell selection becomes. Moreover, the archivist can learn every divine spell at its lowest possible spell level, so some high level cleric and druid spells might be available slightly earlier by taking the equivalent ranger or paladin spell instead. Of course, you could always houserule this.
I also definately reccommend checking out the Cloistered Cleric and Divine Bard variants in the 3.5 SRD to see if either of those meet your needs.
C. Robert Brown
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Paladin: A dedicated holy warrior who exists to smite the enemies of the church 1st, serve in any other capacity second.
Cleric: A dedicated man of the cloth who exists to serve the church in many ways: proselytizing, holding communion, what have you. Except in the possible cases of war gods, the cleric isn't meant to be the primary source of armed might in the church. Even then, the cleric exists to do more than personally slaughter the foes of the church. Sure, that's what he'll do, but he'll also organize troops, conduct prayers before battles, etc.
actually....
originally the Cleric has been the armed branch of the different religions for many editions...
otherwise... what do you do with evil clerics in full armor and killing enemeis even when not serving Gorum?
Clerics were described in 2nd Edition as the Knights Templars, Hospitalers and Teutons... holy men, warriors, and everythign in between.
the Paladins are Champions of good, they are men and women chosen by the gods to do battle...
actually there are not many difference thematically for a LG Cleric that goes for battle than for a Paladin... the difference are mechanical... and a friend insist that the Paladin has not reason to be... what the Paladin does the cleric can do better.
Clerics are not only medics!
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Paladin: A dedicated holy warrior who exists to smite the enemies of the church 1st, serve in any other capacity second.
Cleric: A dedicated man of the cloth who exists to serve the church in many ways: proselytizing, holding communion, what have you. Except in the possible cases of war gods, the cleric isn't meant to be the primary source of armed might in the church. Even then, the cleric exists to do more than personally slaughter the foes of the church. Sure, that's what he'll do, but he'll also organize troops, conduct prayers before battles, etc.
actually....
originally the Cleric has been the armed branch of the different religions for many editions...
otherwise... what do you do with evil clerics in full armor and killing enemeis even when not serving Gorum?
Clerics were described in 2nd Edition as the Knights Templars, Hospitalers and Teutons... holy men, warriors, and everythign in between.
the Paladins are Champions of good, they are men and women chosen by the gods to do battle...
actually there are not many difference thematically for a LG Cleric that goes for battle than for a Paladin... the difference are mechanical... and a friend insist that the Paladin has not reason to be... what the Paladin does the cleric can do better.
Clerics are not only medics!
Everytime I have made a paladin I have been disappointed in it. I don't know what it is, but the class is just lacking to me. I always seem to go back and make a cleric. They just have more variety. I started my current campaign as a paladin and after reviewing all the feats, spells, and such for a paladin I just couldn't stand to continue with the paladin. I wish they had more variety, but it's very limited.
Anyone else think so too or is it just me?
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Everytime I have made a paladin I have been disappointed in it. I don't know what it is, but the class is just lacking to me. I always seem to go back and make a cleric. They just have more variety. I started my current campaign as a paladin and after reviewing all the feats, spells, and such for a paladin I just couldn't stand to continue with the paladin. I wish they had more variety, but it's very limited.
Anyone else think so too or is it just me?
paladins right now are a bit more versatil than in the past
but their path is just one and straightforward... you can use some feats for enhancing him... now at least you have the chance between a mount and amaking your weapon "holier than thou", and a few other things...
i like the paladin as a concept, and i have done a couple of them and being happy with them... but my favorite class is always the Cleric, follwoed by the rogue
i understand i like the diversity that you can actually take with the cleric... i just hope for more skill points :S which is my main problem with at least 3 classes (cinluding the paladin and the fighter)
Paladin: A dedicated holy warrior who exists to smite the enemies of the church 1st, serve in any other capacity second.
Cleric: A dedicated man of the cloth who exists to serve the church in many ways: proselytizing, holding communion, what have you. Except in the possible cases of war gods, the cleric isn't meant to be the primary source of armed might in the church. Even then, the cleric exists to do more than personally slaughter the foes of the church. Sure, that's what he'll do, but he'll also organize troops, conduct prayers before battles, etc.
actually....
originally the Cleric has been the armed branch of the different religions for many editions...
otherwise... what do you do with evil clerics in full armor and killing enemeis even when not serving Gorum?
Clerics were described in 2nd Edition as the Knights Templars, Hospitalers and Teutons... holy men, warriors, and everythign in between.
the Paladins are Champions of good, they are men and women chosen by the gods to do battle...
actually there are not many difference thematically for a LG Cleric that goes for battle than for a Paladin... the difference are mechanical... and a friend insist that the Paladin has not reason to be... what the Paladin does the cleric can do better.
Clerics are not only medics!
I know clerics aren't only medics. I've been playing long enough (old red box) that I know that. I was merely trying to de-emphasize their role in melee. The points about the LG cleric and paladin were salient and that was the tack I was trying to take albeit unsuccessfully due to my brevity.
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I know clerics aren't only medics. I've been playing long enough (old red box) that I know that. I was merely trying to de-emphasize their role in melee. The points about the LG cleric and paladin were salient and that was the tack I was trying to take albeit unsuccessfully due to my brevity.
my apologies, i didn't try to imply that you said that...
it just came to mind as my eternal complain ingames where they expect the cleric to be the medic... most of my cleric hate the medic duty... well in Pathfinder its good to be able to help many at once... and BoXM makes clerics if they want healing machines... but still being able to do everything else (now YOU must touch them if you want to be healed)
I know clerics aren't only medics. I've been playing long enough (old red box) that I know that. I was merely trying to de-emphasize their role in melee. The points about the LG cleric and paladin were salient and that was the tack I was trying to take albeit unsuccessfully due to my brevity.my apologies, i didn't try to imply that you said that...
it just came to mind as my eternal complain ingames where they expect the cleric to be the medic... most of my cleric hate the medic duty... well in Pathfinder its good to be able to help many at once... and BoXM makes clerics if they want healing machines... but still being able to do everything else (now YOU must touch them if you want to be healed)
No problem Montalve, no offense taken or meant. I've heard that complaint about clerics as medics as well and read the posts in all the appropriate threads. I just think they're also supposed to be counselors and medics and general go-to people in addition to CoDzilla.
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Another thing about paladins is that they serve as universal moral guides. Unlike clerics, paladins can be a trustworthy source of what is "the right thing to do" in a campaign. After all, there are clerics of all alignments due to their deities, whereas paladins are lawful good only and always (Unearthed Arcana variations notwithstanding).
Also, paladins are a good front for a party, their high charisma and their code of conduct makes them always tell the truth and will always stick to their word. If a paladin says "I promise _______", people everywhere will trust him without a doubt. If you don't use the Knight class, they serve well as such, the honorable, sword wielding, amazing mounted hero.
That being said, I could never play a paladin. Too good and too lawful for me =/ (I know they don't have to be "durr, good-deeds, durr", but, but... eek).
Cleric=militant arm of his faith
Paladin=Paragon of good and justice , Knight in shinning armor
To me, the 2nd ed. attempt to distinguish the too sounds a bit of a false note, and seems to move away from the first edition perspective on this.
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Thank you all for your thoughts. Thank you Robert ranting for your suggestion of the Archavist. That is another class in addition to the Cloistered cleric that I will look into.
I suppose it makes sense that the paladins are paragons of goodness and justice and that clerics are the militant arm of their faith. I guess the distinction can be easily blurred if you sit a cleric of Sarenrae next to a paladin of Sarenrae and compare them. However if you put a cleric of Abadar down next to a Paladin of Abadar, there might be be a wider range.
Again thank you for your thoguths.
I would guess that mixing Bard and Cleric should produce a nice skilled, charismatic but not too combat-worthy proponent of the faith :)
Cloistered Cleric.
Then the story is about why and how a cloistered cleric goes adventuring--sounds like it has potential to me.
I would guess that mixing Bard and Cleric should produce a nice skilled, charismatic but not too combat-worthy proponent of the faith :)Cloistered Cleric.boring
if he is cloistered... what does he does outside?
The ten millionst paladin on a holy crusade is boring. Actually the second or third of those is boring. Try new things.
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The ten millionst paladin on a holy crusade is boring. Actually the second or third of those is boring. Try new things.
eclesiastic investigator, like the Father William of Baskerville in "The name of the Rose" is what I like to play... but I prefer mine with an armor and a sword so she can defend herself...
skills: Linguistics, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Kn: Religion... everything else be damned :P
Love that William of Baskerville...
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Love that William of Baskerville...
ahh I agree... great character
Sounds like a bard, use perform (oratory) To give rousing divine speeches.
High on the Skill side, armored, OK combatant, not great, but OK...
(request from you DM to use divine spells instead of arcane...)
I am unconvinced with the devoted bard :S
I used the bard for a Ship's Captain...she was fun to play, social, good with orders... but when you say "ok combatant, not great" you speak of someone else... poor Illean'dra sucked in combat, she put her back to ther summoner, get en full defense and began giving orders (perform: oratory) and things went decently.
either way I only ask the cleric to have 4 skills points + int per level... my GMs agree
The ten millionst paladin on a holy crusade is boring. Actually the second or third of those is boring. Try new things.eclesiastic investigator, like the Father William of Baskerville in "The name of the Rose" is what I like to play... but I prefer mine with an armor and a sword so she can defend herself...
skills: Linguistics, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Kn: Religion... everything else be damned :P
The curse of D&D. Everyone wants to be a fighter in addition to everything else.
An investigator who doesn't know anything about the world except what the scripture says about demons being bad is a poor investigator indeed.
I haven't read the book, but the movie didn't contain any fight scenes where Father William waded through enemies with his trusty mace. Was that part left out?
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I just wanted to ask thematically, what is the difference between a cleric and a paladin? They both are combat oriented and have “divine support”.
And if I wanted to say, make a village priest, with social skills or a monk who lives in an abbey illuminating manuscripts, and tending to a library, any suggestions? How could I go about making a divine spell caster who relies much more on his spells as opposed to his combat capability?
Thanks
The Cleric is the Spiritual guide of the tribe and the Paladin is the guard dog the cleric uses when spiritual guidance isnt enough. He is the hound when it comes time to hunt evil out of its lairs and the Guard Dog that detects evil within the community.
Village Priest
On the Pulpit he is an uncomprimising fanatic and social critic. He names names, points fingers, and provided all the moral guidance a village should be grateful for. Out and about, the Human High Priest with a Coffin Reliquary balanced on his shoulder, broad rimmed black hat and robes, Holy Symbol around his neck and a Chain in his spare hand with a Halfling Paladin on the end of it used to track evil like a rabid dog.
Monastary Monk
Consider this red robed and veiled nutter who has taken a vow of silence. In the Monastary he oversaw the servants in their toils, Prayed regularly in chapel; and dependant on his own skills, scribed and bound the holy texts, maintained the herbal medicines, conducted personal research in the name of the church, or tended the religious education of the servants and peasants. But out and about He searched for relics and lost texts (good and evil) or traded works with other monastaries as a courier.
Thank you all for your thoughts. Thank you Robert ranting for your suggestion of the Archavist. That is another class in addition to the Cloistered cleric that I will look into.
With WotC being all about controlling their properties recently with the PDF thing... it's funny that they have the full entry for the 3.5e Archivist on their website. (It's the a selected excerpt they posted from Heroes of Horror when it came out.)
If you want to look into it, here it is, courtesy of Wizards of the Coast:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3
I have a human archivist in my current FR game that also has the Old Age modifers. I originally equipped him as an NPC but turned him over to a player to play as a PC when he joined the table. He has two masterwork sixshot revolvers (a bit high-tech for FR, but I was making a concept character) and the appropriate Exotic Weapons proficiency, but with his age modifiers and the archivist's poor BAB progression, he can't hit the broad side of a barn. (I think once he crit'd on an enemy at point-blank and managed to hit it but still only did normal damage (2d8) because it was undead. It was enough to destroy it anyway.)
Anyway, I think the archivist really is the best class to represent the traditional Western monk archetype of the (formerly) sequestered religious intellectual.
The archivist class relies on both a high INT score (for maximum level of spells known and spell save DCs) and a high WIS score to determine his number of bonus spells per day.
As for modifications to the cleric class to make a character more like the village priest, you can always just impose religious restrictions in your campaign. One reason the cleric class may have so much available to it mechanically is because it allows different faiths flexibility in what a cleric does for them. Perhaps the common faith(s) in your campaign restrict their clergy from wearing armor, or perhaps they're only allowed to use light weapons, or something. Maybe there's even a social stigma of clerics in armor dating back to a more troubled time in your campaign's past when the clergy were oppressors. But then again, maybe not.
If you think that Clerics have few skill points, consider the following:
Humans: +1 skill point / level
Human favoured class - any: +1 skill point / level
Human ability boost: +2 on any ability - Intelligence
Even with an average Int of 12, you would have (2+1+1+1)5 skill points / level. That's nice for any cleric.
You should also consider the fact that non-class skills are not that strict now, you don't need to invest double points to increase them and all that you lose is a flat +3 bonus that can be substituted with a Skill focus feat.
In my point of view - as it was mentioned before - the cleric is the protector of his gods herd, by spells and weapons. They fill multiple roles within the church (making the church service, marrying people, doing the funerals, etc.) and they are capable of defending the humble worshippers of the faith. Paladins, on the other hand, are the striking force of the organised good church. They rarely do ceremonies, as their duty is to find and destroy the enemies of their faith. In my campaign, the guards of a church are not paladins, they are fighters or warriors who have deep faith, but they are not as dedicated to the cause as paladins and lack the years of studies of priests. But they are indeed capable combatants who can rely on their church's support. (They are also known as fanatics. :) )
If you think that Clerics have few skill points, consider the following:
Humans: +1 skill point / level
Human favoured class - any: +1 skill point / level
Human ability boost: +2 on any ability - Intelligence
Even with an average Int of 12, you would have (2+1+1+1)5 skill points / level. That's nice for any cleric.
SO what your saying is only a human with above average Int can be a learned cleric
Sigh just points to the flaw in the 2 skills a level thing more then anything.I should not have to be a human with Int that rivals a wizard just to be a run of the mill educated cleric
Most clerics of the medial ages had 4 or more skills, then again the cleric class is based off the templars not the clergy but still they had more then 2 .
You should not be screwed for not playing a human is all
Well, humans are basically good at learning. If you want and elf (dwarf, whatever) sage, put more points in Intelligence. By the way, why do you want to be a learned person (having many skill points) with a basically not to intelligent character? Interpret the rules as if you are not born with high Intelligence (learning ability), you are not supposed to be a sage. You can master (max out) a few (2) skills or learn and later improve the basics of other skills (not maxing 3-4 skills), but you have to focus your attention on other things to became a member of your class. If you have better learning abilities (higher intelligence stat) you can master more skills or broaden your knowledge by learning (putting skill points into) a lot more (6-8) skills.
Besides, the priest class of Pathfinder RPG is not the learned sage of the church's library, but the man of action, who defends the worshippers and takes the teachings of the god to the heathens.
On the other hand, if you wanted to play a scholar/sage type priest in my campaign, I would let you rid of the armor and shield feats for +1 skill point / level. So a priest without any armor and shield feats would have 6 skillpoints per level. Another one with ligh armor and shields would have 4 skillpoints per level. And so on.
I think the easiest way to solve these problems is to use a few house rules instead of making new classes.
On the other hand, if you wanted to play a scholar/sage type priest in my campaign, I would let you rid of the armor and shield feats for +1 skill point / level. So a priest without any armor and shield feats would have 6 skillpoints per level. Another one with ligh armor and shields would have 4 skillpoints per level. And so on.
I think the easiest way to solve these problems is to use a few house rules instead of making new classes.
I do something close to that yes. I don't think a whole new class is needed either
Even with an average Int of 12, you would have (2+1+1+1)5 skill points / level. That's nice for any cleric.
Compare that to
6 class
+1 int
+1 favoured class
+1 human
+1 free knowledge.
= 10 skill points per level. Plus you get all knowledge skills as class skills. Plus you get the knowledge domain. Plus you get a bonus to all knowledge checks and can make them untrained.
And that's with only giving cloistered clerics PF bardic knowledge. One could argue for giving them loremaster to boot.
That fits a lot better for a character like Daddy Bill o'B, since he knew something about everything, not just religion.
By going cloistered cleric, you basically get 5 extra knowledge disciplines, and are better at all of them to boot: You'd get knowledge (the planes) for knowledge about fiends (as they often oppose goodly churches), knowledge (arcana) for dragons and magical phenomena in general, knowledge (history) for ancient occurances, knowledge (nature) for various venoms, and so on.
I do something close to that yes. I don't think a whole new class is needed either
You don't need a new class. The cloistered cleric is a cleric variant that trades brawn for brain. It's originally from Unearthed Arcana, but here's the PF version:
Hit Die
change to d6
BAB
poor.
Class skills:
Add all Knowledge skills (via Knowledge domain)
Skill points:
+6 int modifier
Proficiencies
Cloistered clerics are proficient with simple weapons, the cleric's deity's favoured weapon, and with light armor.
Lore:
Gain bardic knowledge.
Domains:
You gain the Knowledge domain as a bonus domein, even if the Knowledge domain is not normally available to clerics of that deity
Spells:
Add the following spells to the cloistered cleric's class spell list: 0—message; 1st—erase, identify, unseen servant; 2nd—fox's cunning; 3rd—illusory script, secret page, tongues (reduced from 4th level); 4th—detect scrying; 6th—analyze dweomer; 7th—sequester; 9th—vision.
Well in one game I ran I used a wizard. He cast cleric spells had a domains and got Turn undead. But mechanic wise it was pretty much a wizard with 6 skill points
I think people here are making a mistake. A paladin is not necessarily a member of a church. Lawful Good churches definitely have Paladin orders, but even if a Paladin worships a God he isn't necessarily part of a church. A cleric fills the holy warrior niche. A cleric is not meant to be a village priest or a member of the church bureaucracy. Those are probably experts or even commoners. A cleric goes out to adventure for the faith. Even the leader of the church isn't necessarily a cleric.
I think people here are making a mistake. A paladin is not necessarily a member of a church.
I think they are part of the church. Part of the hierarchy. Those guys crave structure and organisation. Plus, one thing about religion is that is a community thing.
They don't necessarily fill the same roles as a clerics, and they're not village priests or stuff like that, but a paladin that ignores the words of a high priest is a paladin in trouble.
Why would that be? Paladins don't necessarily even worship Gods.
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Why would that be? Paladins don't necessarily even worship Gods.
Neither do clerics need worship Gods. They can be clerics of an Alignment Philosophy (Clerics of Chaos/Law/Good/Evil/ or mix there of), or Clerics of Totems and Idols.
Conceivably a Paladin could be a Paladin of Law and Good in a church of one with obligations to many. Their class skills are mostly taught but not necessarily by a church (apart from religious knowledge - which could come down through the line of Paladins from their Jedi Master to the next Padawan).
So your Paladin is a long line of Paladins selecting a Likely candidate and instructing them in the ways of Law and Good, Knowledge of Religion, Animal Handling, Knowledge of Nobility, ect) This could be a Jedi Master and Apprentice thing or it could be A Praetorian Guard in the Holy Roman Empire.
Why would that be? Paladins don't necessarily even worship Gods.Neither do clerics need worship Gods. They can be clerics of an Alignment Philosophy (Clerics of Chaos/Law/Good/Evil/ or mix there of), or Clerics of Totems and Idols.
Conceivably a Paladin could be a Paladin of Law and Good in a church of one with obligations to many.
My point isn't a Paladin isn't a religious class. It has a certain philosophy of law and good, but it's powers don't come from devotion to any specific faith.