its powers don't come from devotion to any specific faith.
Not necessarily, no, but if they do, they will do things properly and join their god's church.
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My point isn't a Paladin isn't a religious class. It has a certain philosophy of law and good, but it's powers don't come from devotion to any specific faith.Why would that be? Paladins don't necessarily even worship Gods.Neither do clerics need worship Gods. They can be clerics of an Alignment Philosophy (Clerics of Chaos/Law/Good/Evil/ or mix there of), or Clerics of Totems and Idols.
Conceivably a Paladin could be a Paladin of Law and Good in a church of one with obligations to many.
Certainly has evolved that way since AD&D edition 1, and while he is something of a Jedi in touch with the forces of law and good as opposed to any god in particular, the intent was there to be a church thug praying for spells from a given Lawful Good God.
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The curse of D&D. Everyone wants to be a fighter in addition to everything else.
An investigator who doesn't know anything about the world except what the scripture says about demons being bad is a poor investigator indeed.
I haven't read the book, but the movie didn't contain any fight scenes where Father William waded through enemies with his trusty mace. Was that part left out?
no... but as you say... D&D Curse is that you need some fighting skill if you want to survive long... and wizard spells are fighting skill in its own way :P
I usually prefer rogues for Investigatiors... but when you get high Sense Motive and you are able to udnerstand peopel motives you have a closer outlook... she is more old inquisitor (before the leyends of fire and torture) than Sherlock Holmes
and yes I agree... in whcih she needs more skills... that was her concept... now she has turned into strategic for defense of the town learning Tactics, sense motive i useful in my table to determine our enemies tactics...
my other complain about DnD is that they give too little skills to half the classes... as if a fighter needs to be useless outside combat...
but lets not begin that :P
no... but as you say... D&D Curse is that you need some fighting skill if you want to survive long
Only if the GM runs the game that way.
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If you think that Clerics have few skill points, consider the following:
Humans: +1 skill point / level
Human favoured class - any: +1 skill point / level
Human ability boost: +2 on any ability - Intelligence
Even with an average Int of 12, you would have (2+1+1+1)5 skill points / level. That's nice for any cleric.
SO what your saying is only a human with above average Int can be a learned cleric
Sigh just points to the flaw in the 2 skills a level thing more then anything.I should not have to be a human with Int that rivals a wizard just to be a run of the mill educated cleric
Most clerics of the medial ages had 4 or more skills, then again the cleric class is based off the templars not the clergy but still they had more then 2 .
You should not be screwed for not playing a human is all
i agree
Templars usually would have:
Ride
Heal
Knowledge: Religion
Linguistics
and the last 3 were learend after becoming Templars... they came from all walks of life...
Nobles would have Knowledge: nobility
Serfs or free men would have some Craft
plus any personal skill they got before or during their trianing and lives...
most high masters of the templar and many below them would have Knowledge: Tactics and Sense Motive too
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no... but as you say... D&D Curse is that you need some fighting skill if you want to survive longOnly if the GM runs the game that way.
agreed
most dowe try to give more emphasis to skills and social interactions, yet even with a sword and armor in the low levels Jordan at least went down once per sesion :P
in midlevel is more complicated, more hps and she boost her 1st then everyone else :P
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My point isn't a Paladin isn't a religious class. It has a certain philosophy of law and good, but it's powers don't come from devotion to any specific faith.Why would that be? Paladins don't necessarily even worship Gods.Neither do clerics need worship Gods. They can be clerics of an Alignment Philosophy (Clerics of Chaos/Law/Good/Evil/ or mix there of), or Clerics of Totems and Idols.
Conceivably a Paladin could be a Paladin of Law and Good in a church of one with obligations to many.
actually Palladins are religios class, since they receive positive energy channeling and divine blessings...
they don't come from no where it was 3.x the one that gave the freedom to not worship gods...
the original paladins in the game not only had to be part of a church (clerics actually were closer to catholicism then, at lest 2nd Ed) but they had to pay tithes at least 10%, don't have mroe than 10 magic items, etc :P
note: the original were servants of a king doing good... but if a priest told them to do something... they DID... unless it went away of their vows... which included Serving the Church
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My point isn't a Paladin isn't a religious class. It has a certain philosophy of law and good, but it's powers don't come from devotion to any specific faith.
In that specific case, they're just like clerics. There might be clerics that think in the greater force of Good. Not a god, just good. Clerics are as prone as Paladins of being followers of a religion (except their alignments, I reckon there are a lot more of godless clerics than godless paladins). That is, settings like FR notwithstanding.
My point isn't a Paladin isn't a religious class. It has a certain philosophy of law and good, but it's powers don't come from devotion to any specific faith.Why would that be? Paladins don't necessarily even worship Gods.Neither do clerics need worship Gods. They can be clerics of an Alignment Philosophy (Clerics of Chaos/Law/Good/Evil/ or mix there of), or Clerics of Totems and Idols.
Conceivably a Paladin could be a Paladin of Law and Good in a church of one with obligations to many.
actually Palladins are religios class, since they receive positive energy channeling and divine blessings...
they don't come from no where it was 3.x the one that gave the freedom to not worship gods...
the original paladins in the game not only had to be part of a church (clerics actually were closer to catholicism then, at lest 2nd Ed) but they had to pay tithes at least 10%, don't have mroe than 10 magic items, etc :P
note: the original were servants of a king doing good... but if a priest told them to do something... they DID... unless it went away of their vows... which included Serving the Church
I'm sorry, but I just read the 1st and 2nd Edition PHB, and in neither of those does it say the Paladin has to worship a deity. They do have to pay tithes, but that doesn't mean that they are clergy. Of course a lawful good person would follow the orders of a priest of they're religion.
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I'm sorry, but I just read the 1st and 2nd Edition PHB, and in neither of those does it say the Paladin has to worship a deity. They do have to pay tithes, but that doesn't mean that they are clergy. Of course a lawful good person would follow the orders of a priest of they're religion.My point isn't a Paladin isn't a religious class. It has a certain philosophy of law and good, but it's powers don't come from devotion to any specific faith.Why would that be? Paladins don't necessarily even worship Gods.Neither do clerics need worship Gods. They can be clerics of an Alignment Philosophy (Clerics of Chaos/Law/Good/Evil/ or mix there of), or Clerics of Totems and Idols.
Conceivably a Paladin could be a Paladin of Law and Good in a church of one with obligations to many.
actually Palladins are religios class, since they receive positive energy channeling and divine blessings...
they don't come from no where it was 3.x the one that gave the freedom to not worship gods...
the original paladins in the game not only had to be part of a church (clerics actually were closer to catholicism then, at lest 2nd Ed) but they had to pay tithes at least 10%, don't have mroe than 10 magic items, etc :P
note: the original were servants of a king doing good... but if a priest told them to do something... they DID... unless it went away of their vows... which included Serving the Church
I have always loved clerics and thus always been keenly aware of paladins too and have noticed the following differences in application if not in game-designed niche:
1) Paladins are inevitably drawn to the front of the party, to the role of spokesman; Clerics are inevitably drawn to the middle of the party, to the role of supporter.
--While players can build their characters in a lot of different ways, the mechanics move them to certain places in the party (a phenomenon 4e made into rule rather than side-effect, to the detriment of the game; I have seen the leader/controller role played by every class, not just the ones the mechanics favor). Even when the party has developed a Cleric/leader, Paladin/back bencher set up (something I have never seen), when the party is facing the red dragon, the Paladin will find a way to step forward and command the stage.
2) The mechanics, even when subtle, move characters towards a certain place in the party.
--For the cleric, this means wise counselor and chief opponent of undeath and impiety. The cleric's prime attribute and the skills attached to it, combined with the ability to turn undead and connect with the priestly hierarchy makes it matter. The cleric is not the village priest, he is the adventuring wing of his faith and is likely to not fit into the formal power structure very well (if his church has such) since he can't attend to the ecclesiastical power struggle while also vindicating the faith in the field.
--For the paladin, this means charismatic embodiment of the chivalric ideals. His code is too restrictive, the consequences of violation too immediate, and so many of his powers flow from his willingness to be an exemplar of his virtues. If a paladin is involved in the church formally it is almost always as a charismatic hero figure or a handy dupe for the schemers behind the throne.
3) Successive iterations of the game have added a ton of flexibility to the cleric while retaining the principal role-playing restrictions on the paladin; this means that while a cleric can mimic a paladin pretty well, a paladin can only mimic a cleric of a Lawful Good, Justice-centered, Retributive God.
--A cleric is much much more flexible in realization than a paladin. This means that players who step up to their first paladin almost always settle into one of three very clear archetypes: Launcelot the Mighty (and sometimes tempted to corruption), Dudley Do Right, or Captain America. On the other hand, most players stepping up to their first cleric tend to settle in for a long stay as healing-on-demand before they move into a niche of trying to embody their god in the party.
Eventually, for experienced players of both classes, the profession becomes a backdrop for the normal range of human personality.
BGII's NPC paladin Keldorn, for example, is an excellent realization of the depth possible in a paladin while still remaining true to the strict limits of life of a paladin. Keldorn would never be mistaken for a high priest of Torm nor would he even be consulted in the church's power structure. Despite that, he is undeniably a powerful presence as both a noble knight and a mighty priest of Torm. Never would you mistake him for a cleric of Torm, the cleric would never allow himself to be so bound and penalized by his Code as Keldorn did. Redemption is not part of the Paladin's mindset, winnowing evil is.
Keldorn is the rarity of paladin characters, however, because the strict role tends to limit player's imaginations.
In my experience, that is why cleric players tend to push their boundaries more and explore the possibilities more. A cleric of Tyr, god of Justice, for example could be a stern judge, or a battling warrior, or a determined teacher of virtue. He could also be one who bears his clerical robes as a penance for his own earlier immorality, working always to temper judgment with the possiblity of redemption. Because as a cleric he has a charge to win souls for the faith, redemption is always available to the cleric, no matter how stern his god.
Both classes are a ton of fun and I have never once seen a party actually struggle with an identity crisis because they had a LG cleric and a paladin and couldn't tell which was which.
1. What is a tithe?
2. Who pays a tithe?
3. Who is it paid to?
Sounds like a member of a religious community with institutions, serving a deity to me. Perhaps the subtext spells out that which was assumed?
Sure, choose a joke, but they hardly originated the concept of the tithe, and that's certainly not where Gygax got it.
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Sure, choose a joke, but they hardly originated the concept of the tithe, and that's certainly not where Gygax got it.
i'll dig through the Old DMGs and see what it says. Maybe Paladin is covered somewhere in there as something.
10% of all income goes "to whatever charitable religious institution of Lawful Good Alignment the Paladin selects."-PHB
The only mention of associating with a Cleric is when a Paladin must present themselves to a high ranking cleric and do pennance for his/her Sins (acts of a chaotic nature).
I pay tithes, when I get paid anyway, which hasn't happened in a while, but I'm not considered to be part of the church hierarchy.
Are they voluntary tithes? If they are, then I would take it that, while not part of the hierarchy, you are part of a religious community in some meaningful way. Religious communities are not particularly rich in non-theistic members, unless it is a non-theistic religion (a somewhat problematic category).
In any event, if you undertake a vocation that requires the paying of tithes, then it seems that you are part of a religious order, without the need for that order to be a part of the hierarchy.
But it doesn't say that the church requires them to tithe, merely that they must pay a tithe "to whatever charitable religious institution of Lawful Good Alignment the Paladin selects."
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I'm sorry, but I just read the 1st and 2nd Edition PHB, and in neither of those does it say the Paladin has to worship a deity. They do have to pay tithes, but that doesn't mean that they are clergy. Of course a lawful good person would follow the orders of a priest of they're religion.
If a paladin ever knowingly perform a chaotic act, he must seek a high-level (7th level or more) cleric of lawful good alignment, confess his sin, and do penance as prescribed by the cleric.
[...]
A paladin never retains wealth. He may keep enough treasure to support himself in a modest manner, pay his henchmen, men-at-arms, and servitors a reasonable rate, and to construct or maintain a small castle or keep (funds can be set aside for this purpose). All excess must be donated to the church or another worthy cause.
[...]
A Paladin must tithe to whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good alignment he serves. A tithe is 10 percent of the paladin's income, wether coins, jewels, magical items, wages, rewards, or taxes. It must be paid immediately.
this my friend is pretty clear... he might NOT be part of the clergy... but HE does serve a religious cause, if not wy not look for another paladin for penance... or just the first lawful good king that would give him penance?
its pretty specific lawful good clergy. lawful good church.
10% of all income goes "to whatever charitable religious institution of Lawful Good Alignment the Paladin selects."-PHB
The only mention of associating with a Cleric is when a Paladin must present themselves to a high ranking cleric and do pennance for his/her Sins (acts of a chaotic nature).
it actually reads as serves... checked it twice...
That does not mean "they serve a religious cause". They serve the cause of law and good, which isn't necessarily religious. And no, it does say selects. Paladins may be members of a church, but they are lay members. They are neither clergy nor monks. Further, they're powers do not come from a deity, but merely devotion to law and goodness.
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That does not mean "they serve a religious cause". They serve the cause of law and good, which isn't necessarily religious. And no, it does say selects. Paladins may be members of a church, but they are lay members. They are neither clergy nor monks. Further, they're powers do not come from a deity, but merely devotion to law and goodness.
sorry but
whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good alignment he serves
sounds pretty clear to me...
it is a charitable, religious, lawful good institution... this usualy defines a church
and yes they don't need to be part of the clergy... tha doesn't mean that they must head the ideas of CN gods just to have a greatsword, ignore the tenets of law and goddness (usually happens when someone tries to rither the cuases and beliefs of gods of other aligments from law and good)
and I do not agree on paladins without serving a god... from me the powers of law and goodness in my fantasy game come from the gods
its pretty cheap just to say hey I am a paladin or a cleric I am just this alignment and I don't need to follow any compromise or tenets, because i receive my power from something higher, but just not a god.
but veryone is free to play the paladin as he and his DM prefer... but the text agrees with me... you can check the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook if you don't believe me... but that is the concept from where I bring my ideas on clerics and paladins...
It does not say serves it says selects. Of course I'm reading the 1st Edition PHB.
Edit: I just checked the 2nd Edition DMG section on Adventurers and Society. It has this to say: "It is common to find the paladin working in association with the clergy of his religion, but lone paladins, carrying their faith into the wilderness, also appear in the tales of bards.".
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It does not say serves it says selects. Of course I'm reading the 1st Edition PHB.
Edit: I just checked the 2nd Edition DMG section on Adventurers and Society. It has this to say: "It is common to find the paladin working in association with the clergy of his religion, but lone paladins, carrying their faith into the wilderness, also appear in the tales of bards.".
man we diferent version then and we will just listen to book we have more at hand...
and the text on the DMG only states that sometimes paladin leaves civilization to carry their faith, it doesn't tie him to stay in a church... but the first line already states that paladins have a religion... just sometimes they work with the clergy and sometimes they work alone...
just like special operatives in an army...
but again this is left for individual interpretations.
Of course you can interpret the class however you want to for your home games, but I think that trying to convince others that the 1e PH, using the words "penance," "holy," and "charitable religious institution" (not "charitable lawful good secular non-profit"), continually relating the class to the cleric in the text, the origin of the phrase "lay on hands," the ability to turn undead as a cleric of two levels lower, and finally granting him at 9th level the ability to cast "cleric" spells, did not intend to portray the class as a religious class is utterly unconvincing, at best. From there, it should be obvious that there is no generic way of being religious. People are religious in specific ways with specific groups. (In PH terms, "Where do cleric spells come from?" The assumption is implicit from the cleric entry, but examples where the relation between paladin and god(s) is made explicit is on page 22 and 39 of the 1e DMG. Or take "Who restores the penitent paladin?" (A cleric.) The reference to "their faith" in your quote above from the 2e could be taken to underline this. Solitary vs. with a group does not mark a break with organized religion in traditional societies, for example, Christian hermits in the late antiquity were still considered to be a part of the Church by all concerned and Hindu ascetics are not understood as outsiders.)
Again, I fully endorse your freedom to make paladins in your games what you will.
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Are they voluntary tithes? If they are, then I would take it that, while not part of the hierarchy, you are part of a religious community in some meaningful way. Religious communities are not particularly rich in non-theistic members, unless it is a non-theistic religion (a somewhat problematic category).
In any event, if you undertake a vocation that requires the paying of tithes, then it seems that you are part of a religious order, without the need for that order to be a part of the hierarchy.
The Tithe is compulsory but the recipient is not...Any Lawful Good Charitable religious organization will do. Maybe Bob the Paladin encounters the Impoverished Nunnery of Uppington and tithes to them 10% of any income while in the Area.
I was just wondering where is this divine bard SRD varient?
Unearthed Arcana, so it should be in the online SRD.
I was just wondering where is this divine bard SRD varient?Unearthed Arcana, so it should be in the online SRD.
Here.