G'day Folks,
I want to talk about a problem that been ongoing with my group's in-game dynamic for a while. This isn't going to be a rant really, but it might get long. What I’m looking for (other than getting my thoughts sufficiently ordered by explaining the problem to someone) is some brainstorming as to how I can materially affect the group in a positive but not overbearing way.
About the Group
There are seven in the group currently. We have been in the same gaming circle for about 25 years. We’ve been getting together every two weeks for about 20 years. The membership has been static for around for about 5 years.
We play a wide variety of RPGs – everything from old FGU games like Aftermath to more current games like All Flesh Must Be Eaten. Several of us GM as the whim strikes though I tend to GM half the time or more. Most of the campaigns are indeterminate length. We wind down games group TPKs, splinters, if they go stale for the players, or the GM gets burnout. The typical length of a campaign is 3-5 years.
About Me
I prefer to run status-quo sandbox games that offer primarily action-adventure options with secondary investigation and intrigue possibilities. There is rarely an overarching plot that the PCs are expected to deal with – there are several overarching plots they can get involved in if they so choose, however. Player choices and results often have visible effect in the game world and the world reacts to the player presence.
I believe party dynamics and choices are the players’ responsibility. I only get involved if a NPC is present and interested in the outcome.
As a GM, I tend to throw out a whole bunch of possible hooks and run with what catches the group’s attention. One of the areas I find most fertile for new scenarios is loose threads that the group didn’t deal with previously. I find consequences of previous actions/inactions provide immediate attention-grabbers for players.
About the Game
Currently, I’m DMing a D&D 3.5 campaign that started about five years ago as a fill-in for the then-current campaign. We adopted it as the primary campaign when that campaign ended about three years ago.
The characters are 10th-12th level and have been for a while. The transition from single-digit levels to dual-digit levels has been traumatic for the characters. There have been a fair number of deaths compared to previous levels and a few characters retired/removed themselves from the group for in-game reasons. Two original characters remain. Three previous characters are NPCs in the world. The rest are effectively gone forever.
About the Problem
A couple of sessions I floated the idea of closing the campaign. I was somewhat surprised when no one agreed or offered alternative campaign ideas.
Apparently, the players are having fun even though I can tell some of them would prefer the group to do less purposeless wandering.
I’ve been feeling somewhat adrift in the campaign for a while now. I’ve been finding it almost impossible to consistently catch the group’s attention with plot possibilities. The group is drifting between adventure locations – never finishing anything and refusing to get involved with some of the macro events that they are aware of.
One of the problems I’m having in presenting new plot options is getting them involved. They have managed to get where they are without building alliances, accepting or performing favours, or even coming to favourable attention of those with any form of temporal power. Less obvious plot hooks are hard to place. The group has picked up the bad habit of keeping secrets from each other so even when a plot hook is found, it may not be shared with those who may be interested.
The characters have been moderately successful with the things they have tried and bothered to complete so they shouldn’t be gun-shy.
There is the only motivation that consistently holds their attention. They have picked up one formidable enemy: a high-level Wizard who is making life miserable for one of the two original characters remaining. They are beginning to loathe him.
The Group Dynamic
Thinking about the problem for the last couple of weeks, I think I’ve found the problem with the in-game dynamic. The characters really have no shared goals, objectives, or even things they hold precious.
Additionally, the interests held by any group member tend to be lukewarm. The characters have wants and desires, but they are rarely strongly held.
If the majority of characters are somewhat interested or at least two of the characters take a strong stand, the group will decide to do something. Unfortunately, this means from session to session the group can often change its mind as to what to pursue as player interests wax and wane.
I've tried talking to a few of the players individually and to the group as a whole a couple of sessions ago.
Anyone have any suggestions as to how to shake the group out of its rut?
I think the talking to the players is the important step. If they're not willing to develop an interest in driving the story or if they just dont see the problem, I think you are in for a tough time.
Perhaps you need to up the scale of the problems they are potentially faced with? As they are now higher level - perhaps a kingdom threatening event like a dragon/evil cult/something beyond the ability of most to deal with can start destroying things - if they ignore it, make it have serious consequences (many innocents dying or somesuch). Perhaps the players need to be shaken into realising that they are now amongst the most powerful heroes around - if they don't step in when earth-shaking events transpire who's going to?
Just some thoughts off the top of my head.
Tough one. They like the game; you don't feel engaged. Is your group a lot of beer 'n pretzels gamers? Would someone else take over as DM to round it out?
I think the talking to the players is the important step. If they're not willing to develop an interest in driving the story or if they just dont see the problem, I think you are in for a tough time.
Perhaps you need to up the scale of the problems they are potentially faced with? As they are now higher level - perhaps a kingdom threatening event like a dragon/evil cult/something beyond the ability of most to deal with can start destroying things - if they ignore it, make it have serious consequences (many innocents dying or somesuch). Perhaps the players need to be shaken into realising that they are now amongst the most powerful heroes around - if they don't step in when earth-shaking events transpire who's going to?
Just some thoughts off the top of my head.
The scale of events happening in their area aren't small. Unfortunately, the group has managed to avoid the plot connections to well, almost everything. Sometimes they refuse missions/pleas that will lead to bigger things. Other times they notice connections, but don’t follow up. The rest of the time the players start something, but never finish. I can see the players casting about for a way to affect ongoing events, but they have no ability to follow through. Let me give you an example:
About 3 sessions ago the group returns from a successful black dragon hunt. (Originally a random encounter, the dragon had killed and looted one of their cohorts. They wanted revenge.) As the group regroups and recovers, I ask for plans so I can prepare the next session. I figure the group will want to follow up on one of their open items:
- To their east, a decaying empire has launched a war of aggression on a group of small countries to the south. The war is having ripple effects on trade and travel. Some members of the group know the area has something warping animals from their natural forms…
- A xenophobic and isolated dwarven city that is somehow tainted with evil (variety of self-contained areas with ELs ranging from 4 to 14) last visited about 3 sessions ago; the group has been making almost no progress determining the nature of the trouble – they have made tremendous progress in exterminating their natural allies though.
- A deadly forest that legends say contains a lost city (expected EL of the area: 11; players became interested in the area at level 4 and walked 300+ miles to begin preliminary exploration). It was last visited with an average party level of 8.
- A local barony where the eldest son has ascended to the throne and turned to flamboyant evil. His mother lives in the nearby metropolis.
- A high-level thief who stole an item with a large reward attached. The group started to track him down and has known where he is for about 2 levels. Once figuring out his locale, they dropped the investigation (they got distracted).
- The nearby metropolis where the group has the possibility of contact for directed missions (one is a member of an adventuring club, a couple are associated with the magic guild, and a couple are lightly associated with one of the temples).
- Investigation/confrontation with the high-level wizard who’s been determined to harass/annoy/kill the dwarven fighter for the past 5 levels.
Their decision? Let’s hunt pirates! Umm, pirates! Where did that come from? Well, about 4 levels ago, the group was at a coastal city where they were offered a bunch of hooks to a mission to deal with some privateer activity -- both for and against. The group refused them all – they felt like staying landlubbers. Now, some coastal cities are being affected by the nearby war action. One of the players remembered and offered that the pirates need to get dealt with. People said “OK; sounds good.”
So I gritted my teeth, dusted off the notes from 18 months ago and got ready for a return to Safeton for pirate hunting. By the time the session started, the players had changed their minds… to a walk in the wilderness. The whole attention deficit group dynamic had kicked in.
I ended up dropping the next escalation of the high-level wizard on them a month early and the last two sessions were them investigating and dealing with that consequence.
Tough one. They like the game; you don't feel engaged. Is your group a lot of beer 'n pretzels gamers? Would someone else take over as DM to round it out?
No. The group normally gets engaged, picks sides, develops goals, tries to build alliances, etc. The first couple of levels of this campaign were much more episodic though and that may have set a tone in the player’s minds early on.
I was hoping someone would suggest running something when I floated the idea of ending the campaign. No one did.
I plan on talking to the players again. I need to come up with a non-confrontational way of say "Guys, the the heck is going on?"
It sounds like you have a lot of plot hooks. Perhaps there are simply too many hooks for the PCs to choose from. I had a similar problem with a group once. They decided not to participate in a climactic battle, but to watch it from afar on a hilltop. This sounds somewhat like what your group is doing.
Perhaps it might help to lessen the number of plot hooks, and to make the plot hooks you really want them to play, more urgent. The group I referred to above had a wonderful evening when I ran them through an adventure where they had to locate seven exploding magic items in a city they were staying in at the moment - within 3 hours! If these items exploded, chaos would result. They had an exciting race to find them all, and the adventure really got their adrenaline running.
Another thing that works well with them, is a chase scene.
These are all scenes where the PCs have next to no choice what to do, and have to make split-second decisions. They do not have the luxury to discuss "what they will be doing this evening", since in a way it is determined for them.
I do not mean to say you have to guide them by the hand all the time, but if you do this a few times, it will probably work. E.g. let the evil wizard teleport some minions to them after scrying them, and attack. Make the enemies more proactive, and involve the players in the action by letting them experience the consequences of their inaction directly. If you do this, they will probably be more wary on an evening their enemies do not attack, and they will check out your leads just in case they miss something the enemy might be planning. (Make them paranoid.)
I hope this advice is of use to you, since of course I do not know your group. Good luck with your campaign.
I appreciate the reply.
I don't really have plot hooks I really want to follow. I prefer the role of judge to director. I'll set up situations. If the players act, fine. If they don't, I'll check to see how the situation evolves in the world. Sometimes the situation goes away. Sometimes it grows worse. Following any one of the hooks would be enough for me.
The hooks I outlined have been slowly building over the past few years and some have been player-forced like the lost city in the forest. The players haven't been dumped into an overwhellming situation; they just never finish a project.
Urgent things can and do happen in my universe. Unfortunately, the characters have managed to set themselves up to have very limited interaction of those around them (and they never been betrayed by NPCs so paranoia isn't justified). Contrived actions can and I suppose will still occur, but there is a limit as to the number of times they can stumble into the action without notice.
As for active dangers, the wizard is a big one -- he's just not willing to enter into direct confrontation. The wizard has been proactively attacking them and those things they touch. So far he has managed to catch one character isolated and have a demon kill him, have a bunch of innocents implanted with slaad eggs and released, and in the last interlude, slaughter and vampirise a dwarven outpost the PCs were partially responsible for developing when they left the place without protection for a several months (and didn't follow up with any form of investigation after the two leaders were abducted 6 months before that). The PCs have had 2 direct confrontations, but the wizard has so far managed to escape.
The silly thing is I think it is an in-game issue somehow. I know these folks. I've run them through half a dozen systems and more campaigns without this level of disconnect. When I brought up the issue at the table, I thought it was an out-of-game issue (boredom) but they assured me they were having fun and wanted to continue.
I've privately spoken with 3 of the players and each one feels the disconnect at the table too. All three expressed an interest in following something through to conclusion. Once at the table though the wandering continues.
I'm wracking my brain trying to find a cause (other than personal survival) at least half the group would support. They characters are apolitical with diverse religious backgrounds and racial stock. Us vs. Them is hard to set up.
Choose a plot hook or two you want the PCs to follow. When they don't, their source of magic items/healing/information is killed by it, so they can't spend their loot/get better/find anything else out.
Also, if the PCs planned on pirate hunting last session, make them stick to it. Worse comes to worst, they wander around in the woods for 10 minutes, then fall down a magical portal into pirate town.
It's a lot of work being DM. It's not really railroading if you ask them where they want to go, and then work on all the details of where they said they wanted to go. It's really not fair to the DM to say, instead of hunting pirates on the sea, we want to hunt treants in the forest. I mean, that's why you asked what they planned to do, so you could plan out the consequences.
Choose a plot hook or two you want the PCs to follow. When they don't, their source of magic items/healing/information is killed by it, so they can't spend their loot/get better/find anything else out.
Also, if the PCs planned on pirate hunting last session, make them stick to it. Worse comes to worst, they wander around in the woods for 10 minutes, then fall down a magical portal into pirate town.
It's a lot of work being DM. It's not really railroading if you ask them where they want to go, and then work on all the details of where they said they wanted to go. It's really not fair to the DM to say, instead of hunting pirates on the sea, we want to hunt treants in the forest. I mean, that's why you asked what they planned to do, so you could plan out the consequences.
Thanks for the input. There have been threats to in-game resources. Sometimes they react, other times the resource is destroyed.
As for the forced placement, I'll consider it. It really isn't my style. That's not to say that there are no situations where the PCs get forced into something, just that those situations have strong in-game justification and make sense in the world. I'm happy to adjusicate whereever the group goes -- sometimes there is a good reason to change plans. What I'm unhappy about is really the group has no plans and no wherewithal to commit to a course of action.
One thing I have decided to ask the players to list no less than 3 things their characters feel strongly about -- at least two of which must be known to the rest of the characters in the adventuring group. Maybe what the group needs is some thought as to what they desire/fear/need. Many of the other games systems we've played put a dtronger emphasis on the character psyche.
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I don't like the "forced placement" gimmick either, though some groups mind less and it can be done without being obvious, done quite well, even (though should be rare).
What I do in these situations is inform the Players, in one way or another, that the material I planned for the session is kinda what we're stuck with. If I spent my 3 hours prep time getting ready for a certain session I can't arbitrarily run, through improv, a pirate session.
But then, I'd not likely ask what they wanted to do; I'm more likely to remind them of where we finished (2) sessions ago and pick up from there.
It almost sounds to me as if this is a side affect of being a "judge, not director" DM. A perfectly good way to DM. But it makes sense that after a while creative torpor would set in. Campaigns are written by DM "directors" -- not necessarily "judges"!
So my advice is to buy a few Pathfinder modules (get yourself a Pathfinder Modules Subscriber Tag and try one.
It'll likely solve all your DM problems.
-W. E. Ray
Try switching things up for a bit. run a one off in which the players get to play their enemies and you can bring a whole bunch of your hooks together. Some of the characters can be from the pirates, another can be a servant of the evil prince, and some more could serve the evil warring nation. They could be contracted by the evil wizard to form an alliance to take over the land or do some big league stuff like kill the queen or try to convert the dwarves to their side. It would be interesting roleplaying and the characters would have the opportunity to be totally evil bad asses for a while.
Another option is to start a new campaign to take a break from your current one. The players could play characters who have had their lives disrupted by the villains the characters have been ignoring. If they for strong bonds with their new characters, they will fight harder to help them when the switch back to their normal PCs.
Well sillyrobot; the way I see it you still have lots of choices.
If I read you right; players are bit bored; looking for and adventure; several of your hooks havent been bitten.
do the players have a home base of operations; have they built a castle; do they have a fair amount of treasure?
Sounds like your players need an archenemy; several actually; I would make a teir; at the top put the main bad guy who is a plotter and schemer; tuff in his own right; someone like a guild leader of assassins or thieves or something that opposes at least two of the players.
this bad guys has several henchmen who are very good; they would attack the players in many ways.
Attack their wealth; set up scenarios to have them picked on; stolen from; start fights; ruin their reputation; take them to court questioning any property title ownership or water rights or the like.
start having info leaked in their gather info checks.
some gather info reasons for this to happen. The main arch enemy could and would in my game; have his henchmen get all of these activities going.
1) temple of x wants revenge for players activities
2) some merchant lords want revenge for something players did that cost them a lot of money.
3) some monster; vampire or lich or illithid or something sees oppurtunity in the players and wants to take them down for x reason.
4) some opposed group wants to make a name for themselves and the party is good at what they do and has a good rep; these guys want to make a shortcut by defeating the group and making a name for themselves.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I think Molech hit it right on the head. Sometimes, players NEED to be directed. There doesn't have to be railroading, but there are times when events should happen to the PCs that force their hand. Valegrim has some nice ideas in this regard.
Your PCs should begin to see the consequences of their inaction. Maybe several of the adversaries they have ignored have formed an alliance (the pirates are working with the warring empire now, and the Wizard has been contracted by this empire to keep the PCs out of the main conflict).
A couple sessions grouping all of these types of things together could be just what your party needs to jumpstart back into action!